I perfectly fine here... I just want clarification.
I dont like taking advice from anyone whos credentials cant be verified.

Until then, it's all theory.

I've studied TKD, (American) Karate, and Hapkido. I recommend Hapkido.

You recommend Hapkido... for what; scoring points, or making a movie?

Did you know that in Asian cultures, to attach 'Do' to something, is to remove it's essence, hence sport version. 'Su' as I understand it, means 'art'. Jiu-Jitsu is the oldest known fighting style, traced back 3000 years to Indian Monks who, being Budhist, did not want to carry weapons. Jiu-Jitsu was developed to incapacitate someone quickly and efficiently, such as dislocating a shoulder, or breaking an arm at the elbow.

The Samurai, on a diplomacy mission to India, saw a demonstration of this and were so impressed they called it the Docile Art, or Jiu-Jit Su. Which I think translated is docile art?

The Brazilians have basically perfected it... take Hapkido to a BJJ class, you will thank me for giving you this information.

Be VERY careful who you train from, my friend proclaimed he 'studied' w/someone for a year in their garage, who had no direct lineage back to Brazil. He could not perform any basic choke, and did not understand how to have position before submission, trying to set up arm bars, shoulder locks, etc.

If they don’t have a lineage back to Brazil, steer clear from them.

****
I'm still awaiting some information from 'Loadbearing511', our benevolent Krap Maga warrior... arrests are a matter of public record, I dont imagine we will be hearing much more from our mighty face crusher.

But, I could be wrong?

Do in korean translates to way or path in English. That is also what it means in the Korean culture when its used.

Quoted: You recommend Hapkido... for what; scoring points, or making a movie? Did you know that in Asian cultures, to attach 'Do' to something, is to remove it's essence, hence sport version. 'Su' as I understand it, means 'art'. Jiu-Jitsu is the oldest known fighting style, traced back 3000 years to Indian Monks who, being Budhist, did not want to carry weapons. Jiu-Jitsu was developed to incapacitate someone quickly and efficiently, such as dislocating a shoulder, or breaking an arm at the elbow. The Samurai, on a diplomacy mission to India, saw a demonstration of this and were so impressed they called it the Docile Art, or Jiu-Jit Su. Which I think translated is docile art? The Brazilians have basically perfected it... take Hapkido to a BJJ class, you will thank me for giving you this information. Be VERY careful who you train from, my friend proclaimed he 'studied' w/someone for a year in their garage, who had no direct lineage back to Brazil. He could not perform any basic choke, and did not understand how to have position before submission, trying to set up arm bars, shoulder locks, etc. If they don’t have a lineage back to Brazil, steer clear from them. **** I'm still awaiting some information from 'Loadbearing511', our benevolent Krap Maga warrior... arrests are a matter of public record, I dont imagine we will be hearing much more from our mighty face crusher. But, I could be wrong?

Where was this garage your friend studied in?  What city?

What city, I have no idea... and I'm not saying that you cant learn individually. I have a friend w/a 13-1 vale tudo record here in town who doesn't teach. He trained at Baja Gracie for 3 years, 5 hours a day... man if he taught. :)

My point is that if you want to train BJJ, find a school so you can try your technique, or lack thereof, against dozens of differnet people... learn frmo a Brazilian if you can. There are only 3 people in Texas that I know of who are either Brazilian, or trained in Brazil. Carlos Machado in Dallas (Royce Gracie’s cousin), Pan-AM world champ William Vandry in Austin (the only black-belt instructor in south central Texas I trained from him), who is one hell of a great guy... was actually shot in the head and is now legally blind, and also Phill Cardella, also in Austin who is a Marine Force Recon hand-to-hand instructor. Phil has a broad MMA career and an impressive MMA record, he operates the Relson Gracie School here in town. In a scrap… he’s your guy. However Vandry is probably the best at straight BJJ, ground work in the world. He is the master of the knee-bar and other leg locks, his book is soon to be available. austinbjj.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=51

BJJ is the most technical thing, physically; I have ever done… a half-inch means the difference between submission and escape.
You should find someone in your area that has a direct lineage back to Brazil and give it a shot. I always enjoy watching people on their 1st night.

Quoted: Do in korean translates to way or path in English. That is also what it means in the Korean culture when its used.

It very may well... however Steven Segal caught a bunch of shit from MMA guys back when he started making movies becuase Aikido was a passive fighting style. So much shit... in fact, that he changed the name of it to Aki-Jitsu.

God I hate segal movies... Neo I could tolerate becuase in the back of my mind I imagined that Kung Fu would be usefull if you could punch 16000 ft lbs of energy and jump 15 feet in the air. But segal... *blechh*

Quoted: What city, I have no idea... and I'm not saying that you cant learn individually. I have a friend w/a 13-1 vale tudo record here in town who doesn't teach. He trained at Baja Gracie for 3 years, 5 hours a day... man if he taught. :) My point is that if you want to train BJJ, find a school so you can try your technique, or lack thereof, against dozens of differnet people... learn frmo a Brazilian if you can. There are only 3 people in Texas that I know of who are either Brazilian, or trained in Brazil. Carlos Machado in Dallas (Royce Gracie’s cousin), Pan-AM world champ William Vandry in Austin (the only black-belt instructor in south central Texas I trained from him), who is one hell of a great guy... was actually shot in the head and is now legally blind, and also Phill Cardella, also in Austin who is a Marine Force Recon hand-to-hand instructor. Phil has a broad MMA career and an impressive MMA record, he operates the Relson Gracie School here in town. In a scrap… he’s your guy. However Vandry is probably the best at straight BJJ, ground work in the world. He is the master of the knee-bar and other leg locks, his book is soon to be available. austinbjj.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=51 BJJ is the most technical thing, physically; I have ever done… a half-inch means the difference between submission and escape. You should find someone in your area that has a direct lineage back to Brazil and give it a shot. I always enjoy watching people on their 1st night.

Who did Yves Edwards train under?

PS:  I have trained plenty of people "in garages" in BJJ to find training partners.  The basics of BJJ include only 3 chokes, 4 positions and about 5 locks.  I think thats about 95% of what you will see in a MMA event.  The rest is just takedowns, escapes, sweeps etc.  You dont need a Brazilian master to learn enough to dominate someone ina street fight that is not trained in BJJ or its defenses.  I think I would put a street fight with a BJJ master in the odds of meteor striking the earth.  Those guys dont start street fights and the ones they get in dont allow the fight to go to the ground and last the time it would take to hurt someone with basic defenses.

Quoted: PS:  I have trained plenty of people "in garages" in BJJ to find training partners.  The basics of BJJ include only 3 chokes, 4 positions and about 5 locks.  I think thats about 95% of what you will see in a MMA event.  The rest is just takedowns, escapes, sweeps etc.  You dont need a Brazilian master to learn enough to dominate someone ina street fight that is not trained in BJJ or its defenses.  I think I would put a street fight with a BJJ master in the odds of meteor striking the earth.  Those guys dont start street fights and the ones they get in dont allow the fight to go to the ground and last the time it would take to hurt someone with basic defenses.

If you think BJJ is only 3 chokes, 4 positions and about 5 locks, you obviously have not trianed w/anyone that was skilled.  Its like saying that Chess is really the same thing as checkers... my friend comments on BJJ, becuase he watches UFC, his thoughts were basically the same as yours.

Gun-fu.

Amen to that Brotha!!!

Quoted: Quoted: PS:  I have trained plenty of people "in garages" in BJJ to find training partners.  The basics of BJJ include only 3 chokes, 4 positions and about 5 locks.  I think thats about 95% of what you will see in a MMA event.  The rest is just takedowns, escapes, sweeps etc.  You dont need a Brazilian master to learn enough to dominate someone ina street fight that is not trained in BJJ or its defenses.  I think I would put a street fight with a BJJ master in the odds of meteor striking the earth.  Those guys dont start street fights and the ones they get in dont allow the fight to go to the ground and last the time it would take to hurt someone with basic defenses. If you think BJJ is only 3 chokes, 4 positions and about 5 locks, you obviously have not trianed w/anyone that was skilled.  Its like saying that Chess is really the same thing as checkers... my friend comments on BJJ, becuase he watches UFC, his thoughts were basically the same as yours.

What can I say your blinded by the BJJ.  What belt are you anyway?

Brazilian’s aren’t big on belts, in fact, most train YEARS before they ever get their 1st belt!

2 of my friends that are blue belts (the 1st rank) have impressive fighting records; one is 13-1 in Vale Tudo’s in Rio, the other has 15 years of MMA experience and is in Vegas right now working to get a UFC contract. In fact, he is Diego Sanchez’s main sparring partner! I have rolled w/both of these guys and their records speak for themselves, they both believe in a well rounded stand up game of Boxing/Myu Thai, but focus primarily on BJJ because is where the technicality comes into play.

You don’t like BJJ, that’s fine… But what troubles me is that you have “trained several people in your garage”, but you say it only has like 4 moves; DevL... sincerely bro, you aren’t making any sense… what is your point, more specifically, what’s your gripe against BJJ, me, or both?

Quoted: Quoted: Do in korean translates to way or path in English. That is also what it means in the Korean culture when its used. It very may well... however Steven Segal caught a bunch of shit from MMA guys back when he started making movies becuase Aikido was a passive fighting style. So much shit... in fact, that he changed the name of it to Aki-Jitsu. God I hate segal movies... Neo I could tolerate becuase in the back of my mind I imagined that Kung Fu would be usefull if you could punch 16000 ft lbs of energy and jump 15 feet in the air. But segal... *blechh*

True.... But not everything that ends in Do is passive!  BUSHIDO- Way of the warrior! (Samuria)

Hapkido is a very effective style if taught for self defence rather than sport, so is combat Tae Kwon Do. The U.S. Marine's actually train in a form of  Combat Tae Kwon Do! one of my students is an ex-Marine assistant instructor in hand to hand. I have gone over most of the techniques and one of the books, very similiar to combat TKD.

You may be right about the DO part... it was only what I was told, I am not a linguist, and dont claim to be.

Most of the people I know jokingly call Tae Kwon Do, Tae Kwon DoNT!
In fact, I have trained w/Phil Cardella, call him and ask him what he things about TKD!
www.austinjj.com/instructors.php?instructor=2_phil_cardella.txt

I taped out a 2'nd degree BB almost effortlessly who trained for 15 years at a seminar. He told me that he was going to go easy on me is what made it so memorable for me. This was, of course, after only a month of training w/Vandry. Phil and Vandry have a LONG lineage of martial arts, but have abandoned them all now, they just don’t work well.... and forget defending it, there is no way to defend it unless you know it, it's a game of chess. Mount is check, submission is check-mate, escaping the mount going back to guard is moving out of check.

Oh.. and one more thing, w/the RARE exception (probably a hundred to 1 odds) of a knock-out, ALL FIGHTS GO TO THE GROUND! And another thing, it's best not to try and kick someone in the head/upper torso that knows what they are doing.

Biting, eye-gouging, knees and elbows to the head... fine, I understand DevL's point, its rare you will see a street fight with two people that are actually skilled in BJJ, however I do think is trolling a bit right now, saying that BJJ sucks, but he trains it??? As long as he’s not that guy who trained my friend that he can curl his way out of an arm-bar, and didn’t know what an amaricano was, and didn’t know how to apply a choke, and did understand that there really is not a good way to defend against a knife if someone knew what they were doing? He tried to position his body to the side, and do this ‘toro-toro’ Segal movement, the rubber item that I was used in lieu of a knife found itself FIRMLY where his kidney’s are. What’s even better is the second time (just to be nice) I did the SAME THING and still stuck it in the same part of his back, however the second time he was able to trip me down to one leg, which is were I would want to be for a take down. In his frustration he told me that I was holding the knife wrong… it was actually a sad moment, and somehow I managed to be the ass-hole in the whole thing and it all started the same way this did.

If someone has a weapon, here’s some advice.
1. You better pray they don’t know how to use it.
2. RUN
3. Hope that you have many friends, and they are alone

Don’t train in someone’s basement; it’s like the dork that shows up at your office to work on your computers who doesn’t know shit, all he has to know, is just a little bit more than you and can really F things up!

And if someone tells you their ‘craft’ is too lethal to train, LET THIS BE A HUGE RED FLAG!!!
They will claim they can only show you theory, go check out their movie collection; it is probably floor to ceiling Segal, Jet Li, and Matrix movies.
By the same argument, BJJ is better because you train at full force, not pulling kicks/punches.

I have injured myself worse training BJJ than I ever have in all 7 or 8 street fights I have been in combined, and injuries are common in BJJ training, that is why there are Kung Fu and Tae Kwon don’t schools on every corner, it’s all about paying money and getting belts.

Thumper_Three0Eight: You recommend Hapkido... for what; scoring points, or making a movie?

Neither.  It was an outgrowth of my interest in TKD and Karate, and I feel it is much more useful in a bar fight than TKD or Karate. Of course, I don't hang out in bars, so I guess I would have no reason to use it.

Seriously, there are a few choice for truly effective personal protection, and no two people will ever agree totally. I've considered Krav Maga, Sambo (Russian), Judo, and Jujitsu.  If/when I get back into m/a, I will probably follow-up with Krav or Sambo. I'm not into belts or forms, only survival, well, not survival exactly - more like winning the conflict. There is only one winner, and several losers. Sure my day job is as a mediator or arbitrator (depends) but my life isn't about making people happy or talking a nut-case out of the knife.

My three rules for conflict:

1) If talking or leaving the scent is an option, take it - if not...
2) Is a punch or leg break is an opotion, take it - if not...
3) Is the use of a firearm the only option, if so - use it.

I've only been in a few fights in my life, I've walked away from each one with nothing more than bloody knuckes and sore ribs. I've given some bloody faces and more importantly, never had to draw a gun. None of my fights have resulted in police reports or arrests. I prefer NOT to fight. There are damn few things worth fighting about and having someone call you names, or say your g/f is fat, or whater are really stupid and petty reasons to fight. But, that's my life - others will fight if you look at their g/f.

Quoted: The style i teach is a mixture of Combat Tae Kwon Do, hapkido, Karate and krav Maga. Its a well rounded system teaching distance, close quarters and ground fighting. We dont  teach our students to kick above the waist and thier are no fancy hollywood style moves or flashy kicks. Our style is pure self defense. We had a 60 year old Brazilian man train with us for about six months until his hours changed at his job, he was new in this country and claimed he was a professor in BJJ, (I dont remember his last name right now but I will find out soon) his first name was Ciro, he spoke very little english. One of my students had to translate for me. Anyway he really liked our style and said it complimented the BJJ, he went on to explain that he had lived in Brasil all his life and was in thier Military Police unit. He had seen plenty of altercations and felt that BJJ alone was not enough, some sort of striking art with distance would greatly compliment the BJJ. I am not sure if this guy is a professor or even a master in BJJ, but he is an excellent Martial Artist. We shared some great techniques and up until i met Ciro i had no respect for BJJ other than a sport. I will agree that 95% of fights go to the ground, but I dont agree with the closed mindedness of the self defence section of this forum. There are alot of great arts out there and it pleases me as a Martial artist and Instructor just to see people showing some interest in training in something!           BJJ is a great style, but it is not the style that makes the Warrior. Its the Warrior that makes the style! So everyone train hard, and conntinue to believe your style is the best. JUST dont argue or force your beliefs on others. Everyone has the right to chose what style works for them. Unfortunately we will never know who is really the biggest and baddest unless we all feel like spending some time behind bars.

Just makeing sure the Propper person get credit for this post. I am by no means a martial arts instructor.... Apparently there is a problem with the computers I share with Martial Warrior and he made this post with out knowing that it wasnt his sign on...... Sorry for the confussion....

I still say my Sensei will kick any of your guys' senseis' asses.

Shoto Tanemura

I will agree that 95% of fights go to the ground

That's a police statistic and does not hold true for encunters ouside of police work.  The easiest way to handcuff someone is when they are laying prone, hence, whay 95% of police fights go to the ground.

Quoted: The style i teach is a mixture of Combat Tae Kwon Do, hapkido, Karate and krav Maga. Its a well rounded system teaching distance, close quarters and ground fighting. We dont  teach our students to kick above the waist and thier are no fancy hollywood style moves or flashy kicks. Our style is pure self defense. We had a 60 year old Brazilian man train with us for about six months until his hours changed at his job, he was new in this country and claimed he was a professor in BJJ, (I dont remember his last name right now but I will find out soon) his first name was Ciro, he spoke very little english. One of my students had to translate for me. Anyway he really liked our style and said it complimented the BJJ, he went on to explain that he had lived in Brasil all his life and was in thier Military Police unit. He had seen plenty of altercations and felt that BJJ alone was not enough, some sort of striking art with distance would greatly compliment the BJJ. I am not sure if this guy is a professor or even a master in BJJ, but he is an excellent Martial Artist. We shared some great techniques and up until i met Ciro i had no respect for BJJ other than a sport. I will agree that 95% of fights go to the ground, but I dont agree with the closed mindedness of the self defence section of this forum. There are alot of great arts out there and it pleases me as a Martial artist and Instructor just to see people showing some interest in training in something!           BJJ is a great style, but it is not the style that makes the Warrior. Its the Warrior that makes the style! So everyone train hard, and conntinue to believe your style is the best. JUST dont argue or force your beliefs on others. Everyone has the right to chose what style works for them. Unfortunately we will never know who is really the biggest and baddest unless we all feel like spending some time behind bars.

Good post.  

Quoted: Quoted: I will agree that 95% of fights go to the ground That's a police statistic and does not hold true for encunters ouside of police work.  The easiest way to handcuff someone is when they are laying prone, hence, whay 95% of police fights go to the ground.

clubsoda22, haven't we already determined that you don’t fight, or more specifically, have never been in a street fight? Where do you get this information from?

I would guess that street fights that DONT go to the ground are because of two reasons:
1. 1st punch injury/knock-out (RARE!)
2. The altercation is broken up quickly (more likely)

My brother in law is a cop, my step dad is a retired cop, my step-brother was a cop, my uncle is a retired cop, and I have sparred w/some of the best police hand to hand combat instructors I could find. Two of which are Master Roy Kurban in Arlington, TX.
http://www.roykurban.com/abba/default.asp?Form_Status=Home&Resource=RoyKurbanBio

And a Louisiana State Police H2H instructor and former Ranger H2H combat instructor. Most of what they are teaching now is submission… putting someone on the ground, lock out a joint, knee on bicep/stomach, etc… sounds allot like BJJ doesn’t it?

that would be what the police teach because most fights involving police go to the ground.  Most fights not involving the police do not.

RjSteed, I’ve got a few specific gripes w/some of your comments, and I will try to be specific as to what my problems w/your statements are in a gentlemanly manner.

He had seen plenty of altercations and felt that BJJ alone was not enough, some sort of striking art with distance would greatly compliment the BJJ.

This is why most Brazillian’s train a pure mix of MT/Boxing/BJJ… ever heard of Vale Tudo’s?

Unfortunately we will never know who is really the biggest and baddest unless we all feel like spending some time behind bars.

Well…actually there is the Gracie Challenge and the few seasons of UFC (before they changed the rules to time rounds and boxing points) that proved a good bit.

These guys went full force w/only bitting, fishhooking, eye-gouging, etc governed out.
Where were all of the Hapkido, Krav Maga, Akikido, Kung Fu, TKD guys then?

I’m trying be as polite as I can be w/out sounding closed minded here, but Krav Maga… c’mon man, I really don’t know what to say here; I have met some of the instructors in the area and they are ok guys, but they do it for the money.

Mui Thia and Boxers scare me… scratch that, GOOD mt guys and boxers scare me. They know how to take a punch, and give one. TKD has some ok strikes, but they only work if you can control distance, boxing and MT are different, they work with your foreheads pressed against each other.

What really amazes me is I haven't heard from many wrestlers or others trained in Judo. Two of the best take downs I have are straight out of the 'judo for police 101’ manual... they work, they simply work.

Maybe I would like some of the Hollywood fighting styles a bit more if I wasn’t a large guy, point being that I can’t really jump 6 feet vertically like Tony Jaa or Jet Li, or Neo ( I couldn’t help myself)

Also, Hello Lester…

Quoted: that would be what the police teach because most fights involving police go to the ground.  Most fights not involving the police do not.

You are simply put, utterly and completely wrong my friend... completely wrong.
I have been in close to a dozen fights, hospitalized and sent others to the hospital, they all went to the ground expect for twice when I was completely knocked out, once even a cheap shot.

I have seen more than a handfull of black-belts get the bar cleaned w/thier asses, they simply dont have the muscle memmory of actually going w/full force. Kicking in the air only makes you good at kicking in the air, not at kicking someone.

BJJ is full force w/a tap option, when you need it, it is muscle memmory... your choice as to weather or not the guy will think about you when it rains.

There are a LOT of variables here, weapons, rocks on the ground, etc... but I'm a fast runner and a big guy to knock out. The only way you are going to fight me is if I go to the ground. It's really really really really really really really difficult to keep from the ground when somone is trying to take you there.

...

Quoted: RjSteed, I’ve got a few specific gripes w/some of your comments, and I will try to be specific as to what my problems w/your statements are in a gentlemanly manner. He had seen plenty of altercations and felt that BJJ alone was not enough, some sort of striking art with distance would greatly compliment the BJJ. This is why most Brazillian’s train a pure mix of MT/Boxing/BJJ… ever heard of Vale Tudo’s? Unfortunately we will never know who is really the biggest and baddest unless we all feel like spending some time behind bars. Well…actually there is the Gracie Challenge and the few seasons of UFC (before they changed the rules to time rounds and boxing points) that proved a good bit. These guys went full force w/only bitting, fishhooking, eye-gouging, etc governed out. Where were all of the Hapkido, Krav Maga, Akikido, Kung Fu, TKD guys then? I’m trying be as polite as I can be w/out sounding closed minded here, but Krav Maga… c’mon man, I really don’t know what to say here; I have met some of the instructors in the area and they are ok guys, but they do it for the money. Mui Thia and Boxers scare me… scratch that, GOOD mt guys and boxers scare me. They know how to take a punch, and give one. TKD has some ok strikes, but they only work if you can control distance, boxing and MT are different, they work with your foreheads pressed against each other. What really amazes me is I haven't heard from many wrestlers or others trained in Judo. Two of the best take downs I have are straight out of the 'judo for police 101’ manual... they work, they simply work. Maybe I would like some of the Hollywood fighting styles a bit more if I wasn’t a large guy, point being that I can’t really jump 6 feet vertically like Tony Jaa or Jet Li, or Neo ( I couldn’t help myself) Also, Hello Lester…

What's up, Thumper.  

I was agreeing with the part of his post about it actually being the fighter vs. the style.   I don't argue style vs. style.  I think the best solutions are combinations of styles if you're looking for self defense.  If somebody wants to learn one pure, traditional style as a hobby or for enjoyment, I'm not going to judge them.  Not everyone wants to be a fighter, and there's nothing wrong with that.  Or if you just want to train boxing, and try to be an Olympian.  Obviously though, for self defense/reality, it's best to combine styles.

If you think about how society and the world have evolved, lots of the traditional arts have stayed the same.  There's very real, everyday threats/attacks/weapons now that the original masters could have never imagined.  Look at the advances in science, medicine, etc, as the world evolved.  I think that's why combinations of arts are so popular, because in their pure form, many arts have very strict teachings of "tradition" and the pure form of the art, and not to stray from it.  I'll learn from anyone that has something to offer, I don't get caught up on the labels attached.

ETA:  I think it was called "Day of Zen" or something, the Mario Sperry/Brazilian Top Team documentary showed a ton of great footage of cross training, if you haven't seen it.  Showed them training boxing, Thai boxing, jiu-jitsu, wrestling takedowns/defense, circuit training...

ETA (again):  This is a great discussion and all, but I don't think there's one final, across the board answer.  What works for clubsoda might not work for RjSteed, what works for DevL might not work for Thumper, what works for me might not work for anybody.  Good to see everyone passionate about their path though.  

Quoted: What's up, Thumper.   I was agreeing with the part of his post about it actually being the fighter vs. the style.   I don't argue style vs. style.  I think the best solutions are combinations of styles if you're looking for self defense.  If somebody wants to learn one pure, traditional style as a hobby or for enjoyment, I'm not going to judge them.  Not everyone wants to be a fighter, and there's nothing wrong with that.  Or if you just want to train boxing, and try to be an Olympian.  Obviously though, for self defense/reality, it's best to combine styles. If you think about how society and the world have evolved, lots of the traditional arts have stayed the same.  There's very real, everyday threats/attacks/weapons now that the original masters could have never imagined.  Look at the advances in science, medicine, etc, as the world evolved.  I think that's why combinations of arts are so popular, because in their pure form, many arts have very strict teachings of "tradition" and the pure form of the art, and not to stray from it.  I'll learn from anyone that has something to offer, I don't get caught up on the labels attached. ETA:  I think it was called "Day of Zen" or something, the Mario Sperry/Brazilian Top Team documentary showed a ton of great footage of cross training, if you haven't seen it.  Showed them training boxing, Thai boxing, jiu-jitsu, wrestling takedowns/defense, circuit training... ETA (again):  This is a great discussion and all, but I don't think there's one final, across the board answer.  What works for clubsoda might not work for RjSteed, what works for DevL might not work for Thumper, what works for me might not work for anybody.  Good to see everyone passionate about their path though.

You know what... I think you are completely right; there is not one 'final' solution, as everything in life changes.  

Having said thus, I don’t think that it is so easy to completely discard BJJ as not useful in real-world scenarios. BJJ is a 100 year old craft that is more refined that Kung-Fu, it is a variant of the oldest fighting art known, passed down from Buddhist monks, some say, as long as 3000 years ago.

Is it the best, well... I guess that depends on what. Some say here it is only good in the octagon, which, I contest because it is even MORE realistic when there are no time limits.

Joyce Gracie said something when he was asked why he would no longer fight UFC, and (I hope I don’t misquote him) I think it was something like...
"Why do I choose not too fight UFC? I'll tell you why, it is because of the time limits and the 'aggression' points. In a street fight, there are no time limits, and overly aggressive moves quickly burn energy.... fighting in a timed event is like being tossed overboard a boat but told you will be rescued in 4 hours...all you have to do is tread water. If you knew that you were lost, and nobody was coming to look for you, panic would set in... this DRAMATICALLY decreases your chances of survival."

The original UFCs proved allot (oh hell yes it did), back in it's early days... those 10th degree ninja's, kung-fu masters and their 'five point palm exploding heart techniques' got dominated… completely, they didn’t last 30 seconds.

Because of the UFC changes, what we now have to sift through are all the bandwagon jumpers that are surfacing now that UFC has become basically a more exciting version of boxing.

BJJ is replicate-able; and arm-bar works if you are 150lbs, and your attacker is 450, a good choke is a good choke… its simple physics, unless you train on the ground... and I mean REALLY train, watch out for BJJ technicians, in or out of the gym.

Just like DeviL's comments... "I have taught X to do Y... blah blah blah.. " it means nothing if you aren't learning the science of it. I can't tell you how many times someone contributed to a conversation I was part of saying that they knew BJJ, but had not even mastered the equivalent of opening a jar of mayo, but they proclaimed they could make a better sandwich.

The ultimate proclamation of ignorance was from a beloved friend who claimed that a 'paint brush' (whatever it is called) is the same thing as an Americano... I can't TELL you about the differences, but I could show you. The paint brush is quite honestly easily rolled out of; the Americano is done with a rib-crushing side mount, knee into hip, and a downward angle. The Brazilians focus on position before submission.

Once it goes down to the ground, it is like being in the water w/a shark. You are in his world, and that is scary... I have been choked out, submitted, and even hospitalized just sparring. The shear power of BJJ is something that, again, I can not TELL you about... I can only beg that you go to a place that is active in MMA/Vale Tudo, or Pan Am fighting.

Was/IS BJJ perfect... hell no!
It is, however, the most proven fighting system ever... and that even goes for MT and boxing, because you only have one shot to get them down.

TKD and Krav Maga is one of the worst shams since multi-level marketing that ever hit the US soil. I feel sorry for anyone who trains it and thinks that they can fight.

I would however, love to hear more from the Titty Bar Krav Maga vindicator, that was pathetic, really, hitting someone hard enough to dislocate your shoulder, and him spitting Chiclets out. It’s a shame people like that are out there, just like Segal, convincing some movie producer that he was tough.

There is a guy in Dayton, Ohio, Steven Hayes’s, who sells ninja black belt contracts... entire family’s go there and pay him THOUSANDS... and they don’t ever loose a drop of blood or REALLY learn anything that would help them in a brawl.

This entire thread started about DEFENSE... and I've taken the advice of some really skilled fighters, one of which is about to get a UFC contract, and that is there IS NO DEFENSE!

There are only a few ways to stop an attack; and that is to create a moral loss of blood, cut off their air supply, or break a vital bone. You can’t do this with some ‘circle’ theory like Aikido… you have to be aggressive.

Anyone that wants to learn how to fight should go fight… and I think this is just about all I have to say on the topic.

Until then, don’t tell me how tough your 'craft' is, shaming BJJ when it is the only thing proven w/blood sweat and tears alive today, on top of it being the oldest fighting style there is.

I wasn't trying to discard BJJ at all, I trained in it exclusively at one time.  I think it's very effective, I just happened to end up fighting Muay Thai.  I walk around about 145 lbs., there's simply not many matches in my area in MMA below 155, and guys fighting 155 a lot of times are coming down from as much as 160-170.  I can fight at 142 in Muay Thai regularly just about anywhere here in the midwest, Omaha, Joliet, Milwaukee, Kansas City, Peoria all have IKF sanctioned events on a regular basis so it's what I ended up doing.  So I don't really train BJJ anymore, all my focus is Muay Thai, and it's for competition, for sport.  For self defense, I'm glad I have the BJJ knowledge because you never know what you're going to face.

Yeah... I know what you mean; wieght divisions are going to make everything so nascar'ish.
Admittedly, I would rather fight somone a bit larger than your size, you can read thier chest/shoulder movements a bit better. Smaller (scrappy) guys can sneak uppercuts, knees, jabs in that make taking them to ground my only hope.

I still, however, love to watch a TKD/Krav Maga/Kung Fu/Aikido 'master' get his ass kicked... I always have, I always will... it is like waking up on christmas morning, good times... good times indeed. I'll put my mony on the poor kid from an abusive home that watched his step-dad beat his mom over ANYONE that purchased thier black-belt on tuesdays and thursdays any day of the week!

Well, bigger guys you can sometimes outwork or beat to the punch.  Sometimes I train MMA every once in a while (basically Thai boxing where they allow takedowns, but you get stood up quick) but mostly everything I do is dedicated to Muay Thai.

I try to spar with as many different styles as I can.  Larger, to get used to their power/height, lighter, to get used to their speed, etc.  Brawler-types are the hardest for me to deal with.  Sharp, technical guys, or guys who have a counter punch style I can usually hang with.  The aggressive, brawler guys give me fits, so I spar them as much as I can and I'm improving in that area.  

I lost my last fight, and I learned more about myself and my weaknesses than I would have by winning.

If there is one sure-fire way to learn, it is by getting your butt kicked. When you get it kicked good, you will do anything to prevent that from happening again.

The brawler types always went after me becuase I was the big guy, and I hated it. I will walk/run from a fight now... getting told old and have to many financial assets to loose.

Quoted: If there is one sure-fire way to learn, it is by getting your butt kicked. When you get it kicked good, you will do anything to prevent that from happening again. The brawler types always went after me becuase I was the big guy, and I hated it. I will walk/run from a fight now... getting told old and have to many financial assets to loose.

Nothing like taking a beating in front of a paying crowd in your opponent's hometown.    OK next subject LOL.

I'll do what I can do avoid confrontations as well.  

I hear ya there man... I always love it when someone tells me they have never lost a fight.

Anyway, tell your buds in the other thread that I haven't gone back to look... in fact, I blocked out the URL from my proxy server, I just can't handle the bilegerence.

Quoted: I hear ya there man... I always love it when someone tells me they have never lost a fight. Anyway, tell your buds in the other thread that I haven't gone back to look... in fact, I blocked out the URL from my proxy server, I just can't handle the bilegerence.

Well some of those guys that say they never lost fights may be technically correct; if they never got in any fights, they never lost any.  

That other thread died out, I haven't been back to it either, and I'm not going to be the one to bring it back to life.  Water under the bridge as far as I'm concerned.

Quoted: Yeah... I know what you mean; wieght divisions are going to make everything so nascar'ish. Admittedly, I would rather fight somone a bit larger than your size, you can read thier chest/shoulder movements a bit better. Smaller (scrappy) guys can sneak uppercuts, knees, jabs in that make taking them to ground my only hope. I still, however, love to watch a TKD/Krav Maga/Kung Fu/Aikido 'master' get his ass kicked... I always have, I always will... it is like waking up on christmas morning, good times... good times indeed. I'll put my mony on the poor kid from an abusive home that watched his step-dad beat his mom over ANYONE that purchased thier black-belt on tuesdays and thursdays any day of the week!

Thumper you come off really cocky... and I understand you are proud of BJJ, but you might want to tone down the over-confidence of your art. You can be knocked out just as easily as anyone else. It is about the fighter not the art... and BJJ is not god's gift to fighting. It can be effective, as can other styles as well. Your single-mindedness on BJJ is ignorant.

Quoted: Thumper you come off really cocky... and I understand you are proud of BJJ, but you might want to tone down the over-confidence of your art. You can be knocked out just as easily as anyone else. It is about the fighter not the art... and BJJ is not god's gift to fighting. It can be effective, as can other styles as well. Your single-mindedness on BJJ is ignorant.

Ok, fair enough… I sound cocky, however it honestly doesn’t sound like you have read all of my posts. Especially w/statements like;
“You can be knocked out just as easily as anyone else.”
“Your  single mindedness to BJJ is ignorant.”

Show me, in this thread, where I have once claimed that BJJ was a sure-thing in a fight; and once mastered, that you could not be knocked out.
Show me, where in this post that I haven’t continuously stated that a well rounded fighter doesn’t use boxing/MT/BJJ in their arsenal.

I used to think that all martial arts were bullshit, that was until I got to meet a Brazilian and learned a little about what life in Rio is really like. No other culture has as much experience fighting as do Brazilians, it is a sense of national pride. They fight in the streets, many times w/life and death circumstances.  I think the original UFC’s proved quite a bit, and now they have changed the rules to take the definitive advantage away from BJJ. The 2 major ones being time limits, and points awarded for aggression.

Where were the Krav Maga, TKD, and Kung Fu guys? I remember sitting there w/a beer in my hand the 1st night of UFC, we rented it on PPV, we thought we were going to watch guys spinning in the air, kicking each other out of the ring. You may have watched it and can remember the commentator sounding confused.
You remember the guys that claimed to be 7th black belts in Ninjitsu, etc, they didn’t last 30 seconds.

Now BJJ techniques are being adopted by many others, look at how much Samba (spelling?)  has changed because of BJJ.

Show me a fighting style that has more proven time under fire, other than MT, Boxing, and I’ll be more open minded.  However to call me ignorant on this topic w/out reading my posts and commenting w/fact yet making an ad-hominem attack is childish…. Really.

Talk too me, don’t tell me I am cocky… let me figure it out by educating me w/what you know instead of proclaiming my ignorance.

O.K.

What is the origin of BJJ? not what you heard. (Buddist monks)
What is the origin of Ju Jitsu?
What is the origin of Hapkido?

Thumper if you do your homework or at least compare the similiarity of some of the techniques of these 3 styles. Your eyes may open to a whole new world that........either.



A. There are only so many ways to hurt a human with certain techniques.

B. All styles are somehow related or generated from the same era?

I tend to side with the second choice, you have your basic striking styles, grappling styles, ect. but no matter wich country claims them. No matter what they name them, there techniques seem similiar.

Humans have been fighting since we have been inhabiting this planet, who invented the wheel first is the real question. Every civilization has added a little spin to it and called it thier own!

PlEASE see my previous post in this thread. This may explain some confusion...

OK... that explains a bit, it edits some of what I was going to email too him becuase I thought we covered most of this on when I Posted on 10/3/2005 11:02:46 PM EDT

I love this… however

Quoted: Thumper if you do your homework or at least compare the similiarity of some of the techniques of these 3 styles. Your eyes may open to a whole new world that........either.

A. There are only so many ways to hurt a human with certain techniques.
• I agree, that is a to make them loose blood, cut off their air supply, or break a vital bone.

B. All styles are somehow related or generated from the same era?
• I DO NOT AGREE!!!! Most ‘Martial Art’s’ are trained as theory… BJJ scraps things that don’t work in the street and focuses on what does. Show me another besides boxing and Muay Thai, and I will shut-up.

*** TO answer your questions: ***
What is the origin of BJJ?
• Carlos Gracie Sr was thought jiu-jitsu from a Samurai master and Judo expert, Mitsuo Maeda, a.k.a "Count Koma" (the count of war) as a token of gratitude for his father helping the Japanese settlers into Brazil.

What is the origin of Ju Jitsu?
• The term Ju-Jitsu comes from ancient Japanese. It translates into the docile art or art of docility because the Samurai on a diplomacy mission to India centuries ago saw the Indian monks. Being Buddhist, they did not want to sword an attacker to death, because they did not believe in killing, so they developed the joint locks as a way of injuring, but not killing. As they were small and frail, they developed a system that works if you are outweighed by your attacker by hundreds of pounds. (an 11 year old girl could snap my arm w/proper technique, even though I am 6’3” 235lbs.)

What is the origin of Hapkido?
• Who cares, it’s Korean… it focuses on high-kicks, and uses a lot of wrist locks that are virtually impossible to get in a fight when hands are moving quickly. www.worldhapkido.com/videoclips.htm Hapkido is ‘theory’, BJJ is a science.

Again, show me where TKD, Hapkido, or Krav Maga has ever been proven, and I will rest my case.  
Try kicking someone in the head, seriously, let them put a helmet on and actually TRY to do it. Even Judo (which is VERY similar to BJJ, two of the best take downs I have are Judo) is pathetic against a BJJ technician.

Also, I’d like to know who this Brazilian Black-Belt friend of yours is, do you mind providing his name… his lineage will easily be traced back to Brazil.
I doubt he was a black-belt if he admired anything about Krav Maga over BJJ, OR… he needed a place to train and was being courteous. In Rio, you NEVER go to another BJJ school and extend anything but curtsey… it’s a good way to get hurt.

Sure I’m biased, but it is because of all the TKD Black Belts that I have met. They are the most un-justifiably cocky people I have ever seen. They think they are invincible, and think that they can disarm anyone, w/anything. They are brainwashed into thinking that if they do scissor kicks they can disarm two people at the same time, even w/baseball bats. I hate them.

I saw someone who has never been in a fist fight incapacitate a TKD black belt in one punch in a bar in college, simply because they guy was talking to his GF… not realizing that his GF and the guy he approached were from the same town and high-school friends, he spun him around on the bar stool and caught a nasty punch on the nose. It was broken and started gushing blood. The who got punched was the team captain of my college’s Tae Kwon Do team and a second degree black belt, it was the beginning of my deep rooted hatred for Kung Fu, Tae Kwon Don’t, Ninjitsu, Hapkido, etc.  

I really don’t feel I can ‘tell’ you about BJJ. I need to ‘show’ you. I hate being the messenger, and the guy who opened my eyes to this found out about it the hard way, and he showed me the hard way. He didn’t ‘tell’ me anything, he threw me across a table and choked me out. I had 60 lbs on the guy and have been in some good scraps. When I woke up he said ‘welcome to the darkness’.

You probably got into it because you liked Jackie Chan or Bruce Lee as a kid. I am sure you probably have all three Matrix movies on DVD, in addition to crouching tiger, etc. I was not only a big guy, but also ‘whitey’ I got beat up allot. No amount of TKD, Krap Maga, or Hapkido I have seen would have worked in any of those scenarios, because every time I didn’t get knocked out (which has only been twice) the fight went to the ground.

If you are going to tell me that ANYTHING is better on the ground than BJJ I am going to cancel my subscription to this thread and post a link too it on my BJJ message board. Every damned week, someone walked into class w/a black-belt in one discipline or another. They all get easily dominated… easily.  We usually let them get tapped out a few dozen times by the women and the teenage boys.

If there is ANYONE I like to tap out however, is an Aikido guy, because I just visualize Segal’s cocky smirk.  I wish I could talk them into putting a pony tail on for me.

O.K.

Calm down, take a deep breath and just relax. At no time did i ever say that BJJ was useless, I have much respect for the style. I actually think that BJJ is probably the best ground fighting style out there, what I do have a problem with is all the people who think that all korean styles do fancy high kicks and that the UFC is real!

I am proud to say that the style I teach is a korean self defense based style. I will never kick anyone above the waist, our style has been taught to many who have actually used it in real world altercations and guess what, it works!

Mixture between combat (non sport) Tae Kwon Do and Hapkido, we have also thrown in a few other things weve picked up! Like some of the excellent variations in the elbow strikes from Krav-Maga!

The UFC is a controlled fight in a ring with rules, there is a time limit and judges. This automatically gives any ground fighter the advantage over someone who trains in non-sport self defense. In a sparring match could i be beaten by a BJJ practitioner? SURE if they got me on the ground wich is not impossible by any means, I'm not billy bad a##. Take that same scenario to the street with my life in danger, I will eye guage, I will use groin shots and I now have the will to survive instinct kicking in...........    Now we have a fair arena, no rules....refs.....time limits...ect.
                 I will win this fight against anyone, because thier is no other option. I dont mean to sound kocky here but I will not be defeated by any man when it comes to my life. I have actually had to fight for my life on several occasions and can say that my training has saved me! have you?

Quoted: What is the origin of Hapkido? • Who cares, it’s Korean… it focuses on high-kicks, and uses a lot of wrist locks that are virtually impossible to get in a fight when hands are moving quickly. www.worldhapkido.com/videoclips.htm Hapkido is ‘theory’, BJJ is a science. Again, show me where TKD, Hapkido, or Krav Maga has ever been proven, and I will rest my case.   Try kicking someone in the head, seriously, let them put a helmet on and actually TRY to do it. Even Judo (which is VERY similar to BJJ, two of the best take downs I have are Judo) is pathetic against a BJJ technician. Also, I’d like to know who this Brazilian Black-Belt friend of yours is, do you mind providing his name… his lineage will easily be traced back to Brazil. I doubt he was a black-belt if he admired anything about Krav Maga over BJJ, OR… he needed a place to train and was being courteous. In Rio, you NEVER go to another BJJ school and extend anything but curtsey… it’s a good way to get hurt. Sure I’m biased, but it is because of all the TKD Black Belts that I have met. They are the most un-justifiably cocky people I have ever seen. They think they are invincible, and think that they can disarm anyone, w/anything. They are brainwashed into thinking that if they do scissor kicks they can disarm two people at the same time, even w/baseball bats. I hate them.

Kettle... meet pot

Quoted: I saw someone who has never been in a fist fight incapacitate a TKD black belt in one punch in a bar in college, simply because they guy was talking to his GF… not realizing that his GF and the guy he approached were from the same town and high-school friends, he spun him around on the bar stool and caught a nasty punch on the nose. It was broken and started gushing blood. The who got punched was the team captain of my college’s Tae Kwon Do team and a second degree black belt, it was the beginning of my deep rooted hatred for Kung Fu, Tae Kwon Don’t, Ninjitsu, Hapkido, etc.   I really don’t feel I can ‘tell’ you about BJJ. I need to ‘show’ you. I hate being the messenger, and the guy who opened my eyes to this found out about it the hard way, and he showed me the hard way. He didn’t ‘tell’ me anything, he threw me across a table and choked me out. I had 60 lbs on the guy and have been in some good scraps. When I woke up he said ‘welcome to the darkness’. You probably got into it because you liked Jackie Chan or Bruce Lee as a kid. I am sure you probably have all three Matrix movies on DVD, in addition to crouching tiger, etc. I was not only a big guy, but also ‘whitey’ I got beat up allot. No amount of TKD, Krap Maga, or Hapkido I have seen would have worked in any of those scenarios, because every time I didn’t get knocked out (which has only been twice) the fight went to the ground. If you are going to tell me that ANYTHING is better on the ground than BJJ I am going to cancel my subscription to this thread and post a link too it on my BJJ message board. Every damned week, someone walked into class w/a black-belt in one discipline or another. They all get easily dominated… easily.  We usually let them get tapped out a few dozen times by the women and the teenage boys. If there is ANYONE I like to tap out however, is an Aikido guy, because I just visualize Segal’s cocky smirk.  I wish I could talk them into putting a pony tail on for me.

Secondly, you dont know shit if you think ninjutsu isn't a combat effective art.

And as for taking it to the ground, ninjutsu does teach grappling and how to defend against it.... it teaches what you would call submissions, except in ninjutsu we don't get thought to tap someone out in a cheese octagon, we get thought the technique to break the bone and then finish our opponent.

There are over 17 ryu that comprise genbuken ninjustu as developed by Sensei Shoto Tanemura.... several focus on weapons, others on various hand to hand techniques, many that contain elements of ju jutsu in them. The difference is your "art is used for sport" for some UFC octagon, ninjutsu on the other hand takes the mindset of actual combat.

You think that in a real fight on the street it is likely you are going to have a fair and straight up one on one match. That is laughable.

Fortunately, my ninjutsu trainning has equipped me with the ability to use not only my hands, but also to use weapons, something your art teaches you nothing about (niether how to use them or defend against them). You wouldn't last more than a minute in a real fight, because you could bet I would be grabbing the pool stick at a bar, the rope at the gym, the knife from my buddy, etc to make sure you lost.

Combat isn't about who has the best technique, it is about who is standing at the end, and who is going to the hospital. That means doing whatever is necessary to ensure victory... and yes... weapons come into play in real life.

Even hand to hand, I have trainned against BJJ guys, and many of their takedowns and basic techniques are similar to what we are taught. Nothing was a suprise, and nothing they did was something that couldn't be defended against. You act as if no one from a different martial art can defend against the "uber elite" BJJ.

You need a dose of reality. And more importantly, you need to recognize some of the shortcomings of your own art.

The fact that you recognize that muay tai and boxing are needed to increase the effectiveness of your art is a step in the right direction in understanding its weaknesses; however, you have totally overlooked your lack of trainning in weapons and weapons defense, which is a serious disadvantage you face.

Quoted: Kettle... meet pot Secondly, you dont know shit if you think ninjutsu isn't a combat effective art. And as for taking it to the ground, ninjutsu does teach grappling and how to defend against it.... it teaches what you would call submissions, except in ninjutsu we don't get thought to tap someone out in a cheese octagon, we get thought the technique to break the bone and then finish our opponent. There are over 17 ryu that comprise genbuken ninjustu as developed by Sensei Shoto Tanemura.... several focus on weapons, others on various hand to hand techniques, many that contain elements of ju jutsu in them. The difference is your "art is used for sport" for some UFC octagon, ninjutsu on the other hand takes the mindset of actual combat. You think that in a real fight on the street it is likely you are going to have a fair and straight up one on one match. That is laughable. Fortunately, my ninjutsu trainning has equipped me with the ability to use not only my hands, but also to use weapons, something your art teaches you nothing about (niether how to use them or defend against them). You wouldn't last more than a minute in a real fight, because you could bet I would be grabbing the pool stick at a bar, the rope at the gym, the knife from my buddy, etc to make sure you lost. Combat isn't about who has the best technique, it is about who is standing at the end, and who is going to the hospital. That means doing whatever is necessary to ensure victory... and yes... weapons come into play in real life. Even hand to hand, I have trainned against BJJ guys, and many of their takedowns and basic techniques are similar to what we are taught. Nothing was a suprise, and nothing they did was something that couldn't be defended against. You act as if no one from a different martial art can defend against the "uber elite" BJJ. You need a dose of reality. And more importantly, you need to recognize some of the shortcomings of your own art. The fact that you recognize that muay tai and boxing are needed to increase the effectiveness of your art is a step in the right direction in understanding its weaknesses; however, you have totally overlooked your lack of trainning in weapons and weapons defense, which is a serious disadvantage you face.

Everyone… silence… THE NINJA SPEAKS!!!

I am wiping the tears from my cheeks now, thanks for the good laugh.

The reality is that 90% of all fights end up on the ground.  It's rare that someone will stand toe to toe with you and just slug it out, especially if they are losing.  Especially if they are bigger than you.  The will try to take you down to the ground.  In this instance, Jiu Jitsu (Brazillian is the most well known) is the best art to learn how to handle a fight on the ground.  On the other side, if you are looking at martial arts for a self discipline/self conditioning aspect, you should work on what feels best to you.  If you enjoy using your legs you should look into Tae Kwon Do.  Let me forewarn you that most TKD is very americanized.  Try to find a dojang with a Korean master.  If you like to use your hands to straight slug it out with power throws you should look into Kenpo.  THere are various forms of Kenpo, the easiest to find in the US is American Kenpo.  If you want to learn about fighting with joint and nerve manipulation, and defense in circles (tai-sabaki) you should look into Aikido.  If you are interested in an art which is fun and aerobic I'd like to recommend Brazillian Capouerra (I don't think I spelled that right).

Most important is to figure out what is right for you.

I think this is what is right for me... I could beat MULTIPLE armed opponents if I learned this!
static.hugi.is/misc/shockwave/fight.swf

ROTFLMAO

Personally I like Judo...
Judo know if I have a knife and Judo know if I have a gun.  

Quoted: Quoted: Kettle... meet pot Secondly, you dont know shit if you think ninjutsu isn't a combat effective art. And as for taking it to the ground, ninjutsu does teach grappling and how to defend against it.... it teaches what you would call submissions, except in ninjutsu we don't get thought to tap someone out in a cheese octagon, we get thought the technique to break the bone and then finish our opponent. There are over 17 ryu that comprise genbuken ninjustu as developed by Sensei Shoto Tanemura.... several focus on weapons, others on various hand to hand techniques, many that contain elements of ju jutsu in them. The difference is your "art is used for sport" for some UFC octagon, ninjutsu on the other hand takes the mindset of actual combat. You think that in a real fight on the street it is likely you are going to have a fair and straight up one on one match. That is laughable. Fortunately, my ninjutsu trainning has equipped me with the ability to use not only my hands, but also to use weapons, something your art teaches you nothing about (niether how to use them or defend against them). You wouldn't last more than a minute in a real fight, because you could bet I would be grabbing the pool stick at a bar, the rope at the gym, the knife from my buddy, etc to make sure you lost. Combat isn't about who has the best technique, it is about who is standing at the end, and who is going to the hospital. That means doing whatever is necessary to ensure victory... and yes... weapons come into play in real life. Even hand to hand, I have trainned against BJJ guys, and many of their takedowns and basic techniques are similar to what we are taught. Nothing was a suprise, and nothing they did was something that couldn't be defended against. You act as if no one from a different martial art can defend against the "uber elite" BJJ. You need a dose of reality. And more importantly, you need to recognize some of the shortcomings of your own art. The fact that you recognize that muay tai and boxing are needed to increase the effectiveness of your art is a step in the right direction in understanding its weaknesses; however, you have totally overlooked your lack of trainning in weapons and weapons defense, which is a serious disadvantage you face. Everyone… silence… THE NINJA SPEAKS!!! I am wiping the tears from my cheeks now, thanks for the good laugh.

That's ok... I crack up everytime you say something as well... because you sound totally ridiculous. You must get your ass whooped routinely... I doubt you even train as you say you do. Probably never even been in a fight

Quoted: That's ok... I crack up everytime you say something as well... because you sound totally ridiculous. You must get your ass whooped routinely... I doubt you even train as you say you do. Probably never even been in a fight

Seriously man, the only think you are going to accomplish by lashing out as an angry jack-ass is to align others in here w/me.

You say I have never been in a fight… ok, well, that’s your opinion.

Steven Hayes’s runs a Toshindo/Ninjitsu school in Centerville Ohio… I have been there during one of their seminars visiting family.
I am confident that the black belt demonstration is the most pathetic thing I have ever seen.

Pulling kicks and training weapons defense is like jerking off and claiming to be a porn star! You would drop your goo in 3 seconds if a hot chick said, “show me what you got!” Same goes if you tossed it up w/someone who has been in some scuffs. But, I’m sure you would be ok… you know how to catch fists in the air and defend against someone holding a pool que right?

Maybe I would have a different opinion if I had been properly guided in the ways of the sith under your tutelage.
I tremble in humility at the door of your Matrix style fighting school.

Yes oh ninja of the nasty… show me the way!!!

Quoted: O.K. Calm down, take a deep breath and just relax. At no time did i ever say that BJJ was useless, I have much respect for the style. I actually think that BJJ is probably the best ground fighting style out there, what I do have a problem with is all the people who think that all korean styles do fancy high kicks and that the UFC is real! I am proud to say that the style I teach is a korean self defense based style. I will never kick anyone above the waist, our style has been taught to many who have actually used it in real world altercations and guess what, it works! Mixture between combat (non sport) Tae Kwon Do and Hapkido, we have also thrown in a few other things weve picked up! Like some of the excellent variations in the elbow strikes from Krav-Maga! The UFC is a controlled fight in a ring with rules, there is a time limit and judges. This automatically gives any ground fighter the advantage over someone who trains in non-sport self defense. In a sparring match could i be beaten by a BJJ practitioner? SURE if they got me on the ground wich is not impossible by any means, I'm not billy bad a##. Take that same scenario to the street with my life in danger, I will eye guage, I will use groin shots and I now have the will to survive instinct kicking in...........    Now we have a fair arena, no rules....refs.....time limits...ect.                  I will win this fight against anyone, because thier is no other option. I dont mean to sound kocky here but I will not be defeated by any man when it comes to my life. I have actually had to fight for my life on several occasions and can say that my training has saved me! have you?

Oh, and this is a really good post by the way... but you may not realize you are making my point for me. BJJ scraps are a way of life in Rio, go there some time... or look it up. It is the most finely crafted fighting art that I know of, and believe me I would QUICKLY adandon BJJ if I thought something was more effective. All I keep finding, however, are new things like Krav Maga, and the newley refined Sambo that basically combine old proven things.

You are incorrect however saying that timed limits gives an advantage to BJJ, in fact, they were imposed to take the advantage away from BJJ. I have had fights last 10 minuets, some I have trained with over an hour. Time limits, well... I have already commented on this BTW.

However, good post for the most part... thanks.

Quoted: Quoted: That's ok... I crack up everytime you say something as well... because you sound totally ridiculous. You must get your ass whooped routinely... I doubt you even train as you say you do. Probably never even been in a fight Seriously man, the only think you are going to accomplish by lashing out as an angry jack-ass is to align others in here w/me. You say I have never been in a fight… ok, well, that’s your opinion. Steven Hayes’s runs a Toshindo/Ninjitsu school in Centerville Ohio… I have been there during one of their seminars visiting family. I am confident that the black belt demonstration is the most pathetic thing I have ever seen. Pulling kicks and training weapons defense is like jerking off and claiming to be a porn star! You would drop your goo in 3 seconds if a hot chick said, “show me what you got!” Same goes if you tossed it up w/someone who has been in some scuffs. But, I’m sure you would be ok… you know how to catch fists in the air and defend against someone holding a pool que right? Maybe I would have a different opinion if I had been properly guided in the ways of the sith under your tutelage. I tremble in humility at the door of your Matrix style fighting school. Yes oh ninja of the nasty… show me the way!!!

You're hilarious... I wish I could be there for your next "real life scuff" (of which you have had many ) to see you get shanked in the ribs. I would fall over laughing.

As for shooting my goo in 3 seconds... I took care of your mom for a good hour last night.... soooo

Man you are a waste of my time and a waste of bandwith. Your posts don't help anyone make an informed decision about martial arts or trainning; they just show how much you like to suck the Gracies' dicks and how you've been brainwashed into thinking your flabby ass has a chance against someone who will "allow you" to take them to the ground. Good luck.

P.S. I don't own a copy of the matrix... can I borrow yours

Quoted: Quoted: O.K. Calm down, take a deep breath and just relax. At no time did i ever say that BJJ was useless, I have much respect for the style. I actually think that BJJ is probably the best ground fighting style out there, what I do have a problem with is all the people who think that all korean styles do fancy high kicks and that the UFC is real! I am proud to say that the style I teach is a korean self defense based style. I will never kick anyone above the waist, our style has been taught to many who have actually used it in real world altercations and guess what, it works! Mixture between combat (non sport) Tae Kwon Do and Hapkido, we have also thrown in a few other things weve picked up! Like some of the excellent variations in the elbow strikes from Krav-Maga! The UFC is a controlled fight in a ring with rules, there is a time limit and judges. This automatically gives any ground fighter the advantage over someone who trains in non-sport self defense. In a sparring match could i be beaten by a BJJ practitioner? SURE if they got me on the ground wich is not impossible by any means, I'm not billy bad a##. Take that same scenario to the street with my life in danger, I will eye guage, I will use groin shots and I now have the will to survive instinct kicking in...........    Now we have a fair arena, no rules....refs.....time limits...ect.                  I will win this fight against anyone, because thier is no other option. I dont mean to sound kocky here but I will not be defeated by any man when it comes to my life. I have actually had to fight for my life on several occasions and can say that my training has saved me! have you? Oh, and this is a really good post by the way... but you may not realize you are making my point for me. BJJ scraps are a way of life in Rio, go there some time... or look it up. It is the most finely crafted fighting art that I know of, and believe me I would QUICKLY adandon BJJ if I thought something was more effective. All I keep finding, however, are new things like Krav Maga, and the newley refined Sambo that basically combine old proven things. You are incorrect however saying that timed limits gives an advantage to BJJ, in fact, they were imposed to take the advantage away from BJJ. I have had fights last 10 minuets, some I have trained with over an hour. Time limits, well... I have already commented on this BTW. However, good post for the most part... thanks.

Taking away time limits is nothing compared to what else the UFC has done. You can't headbutt or directly attack the knees. This gives BJJ guys a huge advantage. Try to grapple and get into the clinch with someone that can headbutt you... you will find your takedowns will be much harder to get.

In additon, not being able to attack the knees gives BJJ guys a greater ability to rush in for the clinch.... another thing that makes UFC and "BJJ sport fighting" unlike real life