Japanese Jiu-Jitsu is nowhere near as effective as BJJ

Not so, I trained a student of Rorion's, he was great on the gorund, but getting there or dealing with a street fight were not in his capability. I also know a guy has a shodan in Grracie, He has said numerous times, he is no match for me. Our first meeting was him saying how good are you? 10 seconds later he slapped out.

It is 10% the art 90% the artist!

Quoted: Japanese Jiu-Jitsu is nowhere near as effective as BJJ Not so, I trained a student of Rorion's, he was great on the gorund, but getting there or dealing with a street fight were not in his capability. I also know a guy has a shodan in Grracie, He has said numerous times, he is no match for me. Our first meeting was him saying how good are you? 10 seconds later he slapped out. It is 10% the art 90% the artist!

Quoted: I highly recommend Gungo Bang.   It's the most efficient and fastest fight stopper. There is a closely related martial art that's just as good, called "Ching Ching Pow".   Or,  Gun Fu. CJ

Finally, someone who knows what they are talking about.
You know, of course, that the guys how can break boards also good at dodging bullets right?

Drakich - thanks for the correction on my Judo history/dates. It wasn't an Olympic sport until the '60's...I stand corrected.

Judo, however has always been a sport and never a "fighting system."  Prof. Kano intentionally removed the deadly, or even martial, aspects from the root art of Aiki Jiu Jitsu of earlier times.

Here is a Judo history link:

http://www.csub.edu/judo/history.html#top

A little more Aiki Jijitsu info. Please check out this link. It's a short, but interesting read.

http://www.scubajkd.com/MAMA/Arts/Aiki%20Ju-Jitsu.htm

The story about this old Samurai is amazing! He was the real deal.

Let me know what you think....

Where is Judo, Akido, Aki-Jitsu, Kung-Fu, Tae Kwon Do, Showlindo, Toshindo, Jeet Kun Do, Ninjitsu, ect ect ect... other than in schools in the suburbs?

Where is it being proven... in the streets; always adapting/changing, being re-worked?
Where is it in Vale-Tudo, or UFC?

Sorry if I spelled any of those wrong... if I did, and it offends you, good.

Quoted: Where is Judo, Akido, Aki-Jitsu, Kung-Fu, Tae Kwon Do, Showlindo, Toshindo, Jeet Kun Do, Ninjitsu, ect ect ect... other than in schools in the suburbs? Where is it being proven... in the streets; always adapting/changing, being re-worked? Where is it in Vale-Tudo, or UFC? Sorry if I spelled any of those wrong... if I did, and it offends you, good.

Not that I'm picking sides here But......... Combat Tae Kwon Do (Non-Sport) has been proven effective by the US Marine's and The Korean Army for many years as thier choice hand to hand combat. Modern warfare and hand to hand combat may not be the UFC or the streets, but if its proven effective for our troops fighting for thier lives I think it should hold some wieght.  

While we are talking about fighting arts and the Military, Marine Force Recon operators and members of 82nd airborn train in BJJ...

The first time I was aware of this I was watching a program about martial arts on the Discovery Channel ( I think) and some Airborn troops were training in BJJ, and explaining the Gracie's concepts. Pretty sweet indeed.

The second time I saw BJJ being trained by our troops was on a program that aired in 2003. It was on a Jerry Bruckheimer t.v. documentary called "Proflies From the Front Line."  Marine Force Recon troops on the USS Tarawa were ground fighting and practicing passing and holding guard as well as various BJJ submissions. They didn't mention BJJ by name but I knew exactly what they were doing. I immediatley called a Kung Fu buddy (and big Force Recon fan) to rub it in. He had poo-pooed BJJ for several years before begging (literally) to train wth us...

After a few arm bars and chokes, he became a believer...about six years of intense Kung Fu training did nothing to keep me from rocking his world.  Not to mention that he is super fit and 25. I'm a fat bastard pushing 38.

Hey Thumper, we seem to be on the same page here. Just remember JKD isn't a "style" but a concept.

Lots of guys employing the JKD approach are relying heavily on BJJ and other effective grappling arts.

Quoted: While we are talking about fighting arts and the Military, Marine Force Recon operators and members of 82nd airborn train in BJJ... The first time I was aware of this I was watching a program about martial arts on the Discovery Channel ( I think) and some Airborn troops were training in BJJ, and explaining the Gracie's concepts. Pretty sweet indeed. The second time I saw BJJ being trained by our troops was on a program that aired in 2003. It was on a Jerry Bruckheimer t.v. documentary called "Proflies From the Front Line."  Marine Force Recon troops on the USS Tarawa were ground fighting and practicing passing and holding guard as well as various BJJ submissions. They didn't mention BJJ by name but I knew exactly what they were doing. I immediatley called a Kung Fu buddy (and big Force Recon fan) to rub it in. He had poo-pooed BJJ for several years before begging (literally) to train wth us... After a few arm bars and chokes, he became a believer...about six years of intense Kung Fu training did nothing to keep me from rocking his world.  Not to mention that he is super fit and 25. I'm a fat bastard pushing 38.

Hey man... you can't tell them anything, so don’t even waste your time, I’ve tried for the past 7 pages or so.
They are trained killers w/bone breaking force, so be carefull man. That fucking tool practices breaking clay pots and tells me he can break my leg w/one kick.
I say, sure, if two guys are holding me and you have my leg in a vice. I like choking them out like I enjoyed banging drunk sorority girls in college… infact, more so.


What really pisses them of about the Brazilians, however, is their attitude... they HATE these multi-level marketing fucks, and they LOVE TO HURT THEM!
Those guys need to take their 'my art is too lethal for me to show you' fuckspit to Rio.... in fact, this thread got me on the phone w/a guy that spent 3 years training w/ Vitor Belfort at Baha Gracie; whom said something I never realized about Kung Fu and other 'arts', and that is..
"You see man...  if you take away all the stupid bullshit stances, pressure points, and yelling, whatever, from Kung Fu, all you are left w/are punches and kicks. So great, you have wasted what could be total kick-boxer training on the other stuff."


Fights happen one of two ways:
1. They go to decision, someone taps out in a ring, or someone gets delt a pretty wicked bitch slap and they go down to sleep.
2. Someone dies.

I have tried to tell people 6 pages back that I have trained w/a Marine Force Recon H2H combat instructor, he runs Relson Gracie's school here in Austin.... go tell him your fucking pathetic 'wax-on/wax-off' style, and your lethal eagle's claw, bull shit is better than BJJ:
Your likely to wake up to a bunch of smilling guys welcoming you to your initiation to the darkness from a good choke.

BE SURE TO READ HIS CREDENTIALS!
austinjj.com/instructors.php?instructor=2_phil_cardella.txt

If BJJ wasn't the best, why is it that some fucking out of shape mid-30's guy such as myself can completely dominate a 23 year old 2nd degree black belt in TKDont or Kung Pow? And these motherfuckers in here, saying... BJJ sucks, but I still know how to use it, I can curl out of an armbar, my sensi said... blah blah blah.

Now you poor people have to survive the next ten years of bullshit like Krav Maga, and 'Auto-Kinetic Fighting systems'.

I say it on so many levels, from Nascar, to Fox News, to TKD... American's have to be some of the most gullible motherfuckers on earth.

All fights go to the ground, BJJ is the best thing to learn.

to be fair, the military also uses Emil or someone like him to train in rudamentary wing tsun also, Emin did some with both the FBI, hostage rescue, and with force recon. like i've said before, not all fights go to the ground. that simply isn't part of every fight. be ready for it? sure, absolutely. know how to do it? again, absolutely. not all styles are ment for ground fighting and this is where versatility and variety come in. many are ended without ever going to the ground, and thats good. it allows you more mobility and control over the situation overall and not just in regard to that one opponent. a fight is about control. if you have control, you are going to win, are winning, or have already won. this is true in anything. the ability to gain that control and what you use it for is how you win.

if you bothered reading, i said that you fill the pot with sand or dirt and punch the dirt. but i'm not entirely sure you either bothered to read or can read, atleast with much skill. you seem to believe that the human body is very resiliant against damage. its not. dislocation and breaking of the body is very easy and can be done very quickly.

i've also never said any martial arts was better. i've said that some work on certain prinipals better than others, and this goes both ways. I've said that adaptability is key in fights and that your ability to mix the martial arts to your frame,skill, and style makes all the difference. I've said that not all martial arts are ment for all frames of people. I've said a lot of things, but i haven't said that BJJ is worst than anything else. Its a very effective system. In fact, i've even said clearly i dont practice a pure form of any martial arts. I find each to have their limits- and so do many people who are good at what they do.

and please, please, get off calling beating a blackbelt in american TKD, which is what all the dojos practice, some sort of accomplishment. i knew a guy who said , If you take away the ability to move and punch from a boxer, you've got a punching bag..and great, you've wasted all your time training. what a waste. you see, when you subtract parts of the art, you over look the things that it teach you and prepare you for. you seem to be so knowledable about wing tsun too- and all those other "ninja" arts- tell me your personal experience in training with it. i would love to hear. of course, why is it that some of those ancient masters in any art can beat a younger person? does that make their martial art better? no and that point is weak.

Quoted: to be fair, the military also uses Emil or someone like him to train in rudamentary wing tsun also, Emin did some with both the FBI, hostage rescue, and with force recon. like i've said before, not all fights go to the ground. that simply isn't part of every fight. be ready for it? sure, absolutely. know how to do it? again, absolutely. not all styles are ment for ground fighting and this is where versatility and variety come in. many are ended without ever going to the ground, and thats good. it allows you more mobility and control over the situation overall and not just in regard to that one opponent. a fight is about control. if you have control, you are going to win, are winning, or have already won. this is true in anything. the ability to gain that control and what you use it for is how you win. if you bothered reading, i said that you fill the pot with sand or dirt and punch the dirt. but i'm not entirely sure you either bothered to read or can read, atleast with much skill. you seem to believe that the human body is very resiliant against damage. its not. dislocation and breaking of the body is very easy and can be done very quickly. i've also never said any martial arts was better. i've said that some work on certain prinipals better than others, and this goes both ways. I've said that adaptability is key in fights and that your ability to mix the martial arts to your frame,skill, and style makes all the difference. I've said that not all martial arts are ment for all frames of people. I've said a lot of things, but i haven't said that BJJ is worst than anything else. Its a very effective system. In fact, i've even said clearly i dont practice a pure form of any martial arts. I find each to have their limits- and so do many people who are good at what they do. and please, please, get off calling beating a blackbelt in american TKD, which is what all the dojos practice, some sort of accomplishment. i knew a guy who said , If you take away the ability to move and punch from a boxer, you've got a punching bag..and great, you've wasted all your time training. what a waste. you see, when you subtract parts of the art, you over look the things that it teach you and prepare you for. you seem to be so knowledable about wing tsun too- and all those other "ninja" arts- tell me your personal experience in training with it. i would love to hear. of course, why is it that some of those ancient masters in any art can beat a younger person? does that make their martial art better? no and that point is weak.

yeah your right, these guys are ferocious... look at that trianing!!!



I SWEAR, I COULD HAVE SEEN RALPH MACCHIO IN ONE OF THOSE PICKS… AREN’T THEY PRACTICING THE ‘CRANE’ KICKS?
BWAAAAAAAAAAAA HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA HAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!

*sighs* this just proves your ignorance on that form of martial arts. you dont even know what they are doing. its part of an exercise to gain the balance during fighting. as previously mentioned, the ability to stay mobile and the ability to control movement is important. the movement of the foot is both part of the c-step and part of the motion to counter kicks. perhaps you should try and do some exercises on one foot in which your balance is constantly shifting and at the same time attempt to maintain perfect balance. the movment with the hands you see in the second is one of the studying of motions involved. do you see how he's explaining the control of the wrist and the power that it gives you? believe it or not, every day in martial arts does not need to be spent being an absolute badass. not all training is physical. understanding what you are doing and how it is effect increases your ability to be effective.

for someone to dismiss wing tsun so quickly, it shows that you dont understand it. thats really all. it has very effective parts that mix and match VERY effectively into other martial arts. with the ability to control people that it gives you, and it does that very well and easily, you can switchin into grapples and locks without any trouble if that is your liking.  the intensity that goes along with wing tsun in fights is hard to handle. its rough. it really can tear people up- even people that are good at martial arts. you have to be ready to defend everything, to protect every part of your body at every second. thats what this art does, it finds an opening and rips it apart. its very good at it.

i've also shared different parts of my trained, not all of which has been limited to wing tsun. i do not practice a pure form of any martial arts, nor has my training been limited to only one. please undestand that, as i am getting tired of saying it.

Quoted: *sighs* this just proves your ignorance on that form of martial arts. you dont even know what they are doing. its part of an exercise to gain the balance during fighting. as previously mentioned, the ability to stay mobile and the ability to control movement is important. the movement of the foot is both part of the c-step and part of the motion to counter kicks. perhaps you should try and do some exercises on one foot in which your balance is constantly shifting and at the same time attempt to maintain perfect balance. the movment with the hands you see in the second is one of the studying of motions involved. do you see how he's explaining the control of the wrist and the power that it gives you? believe it or not, every day in martial arts does not need to be spent being an absolute badass. not all training is physical. understanding what you are doing and how it is effect increases your ability to be effective. for someone to dismiss wing tsun so quickly, it shows that you dont understand it. thats really all. it has very effective parts that mix and match VERY effectively into other martial arts. with the ability to control people that it gives you, and it does that very well and easily, you can switchin into grapples and locks without any trouble if that is your liking.  the intensity that goes along with wing tsun in fights is hard to handle. its rough. it really can tear people up- even people that are good at martial arts. you have to be ready to defend everything, to protect every part of your body at every second. thats what this art does, it finds an opening and rips it apart. its very good at it. i've also shared different parts of my trained, not all of which has been limited to wing tsun. i do not practice a pure form of any martial arts, nor has my training been limited to only one. please undestand that, as i am getting tired of saying it.

You sound like someone who has never been in a fight.... really, you do.
This is why I asked, do you fight 'Matrix' style, or 'Crouching Tiger' style... however I think it's clear you trained 'Karate Kid' style.

Get a life, and go take that chi, inner force, bone-breaking bull-shit that someone sold you and stick it up your fucking ass. I would love to see an 85 lb teenager in my gym choke you out you pathetic liar.

All that posing, it looks like ballerinas, or majoretes getting ready for a half-time show.

KUNG FU IS FOR PUSSIES!!!

heh. you crack me up kid, you really do.  you get so angry when people offer their own experience and opinions. in fact, you still are completely ignorant about anything about wing tsun, inciting the idea of some crazy forms. perhaps you should read a little before you spout off in a super intellecutal attempt. you just end up looking like a retard. i'm sorry i dont spend my time bragging about fighting, i've been in more than enough. i dont find fighting to be a good thing, i think it should be avoided and so i tend to avoid most of them. the fact that you are this agressive on an internet forum really makes me think you need to spend some time working out your issues.

instead of actually responding to what i posted, you just ramble on in an attempt to insult me. i remember those days fondly in middle school. dont worry, you let a couple of decades past you and you may start to enjoy actual discussions.

and seriously, for the last time- my training isn't strictly limited to kung fu. are you dumb or can you not read? the fact that you continue to try and make it sound like it is because of my high regard for wing tsun is idiotic. do some research, wing tsun has a lot to offer anyone in any martial arts in the same way that BJJ has a lot to offer people. in fact, every martial arts does.

Quoted: heh. you crack me up kid, you really do.  you get so angry when people offer their own experience and opinions. in fact, you still are completely ignorant about anything about wing tsun, inciting the idea of some crazy forms. perhaps you should read a little before you spout off in a super intellecutal attempt. you just end up looking like a retard. i'm sorry i dont spend my time bragging about fighting, i've been in more than enough. i dont find fighting to be a good thing, i think it should be avoided and so i tend to avoid most of them. the fact that you are this agressive on an internet forum really makes me think you need to spend some time working out your issues. instead of actually responding to what i posted, you just ramble on in an attempt to insult me. i remember those days fondly in middle school. dont worry, you let a couple of decades past you and you may start to enjoy actual discussions. and seriously, for the last time- my training isn't strictly limited to kung fu. are you dumb or can you not read? the fact that you continue to try and make it sound like it is because of my high regard for wing tsun is idiotic. do some research, wing tsun has a lot to offer anyone in any martial arts in the same way that BJJ has a lot to offer people. in fact, every martial arts does.

Hey Jet Li; go practice the crane kick... or wax-on/wax-off some more… you may be able to find a thread here that starts w/ “Action” and ends w/”Cut”.

You lethal weapon you... tell me you can break my shit w/one punch.

Seriously man, I don’t care… take Kung Fu, and stick it up your ass. You guys make me sick… I love to watch you get your asses kicked.

And, seriously man… what’s w/the ‘KID’ shit… do you have some running around that you don’t know?
Must be a democrat thing, I can't relate...sorry.

you can't relate because you have no idea what the fuck you're talking about. maybe if you did, you might be able to get a little clue about whats going on.  do some research before you wax intellectual about martial arts. i call you kid cause thats what you act like. want me to call you something else, be mature and i will. here is a random video with wing tsun in action. i have no idea who he this guy is , its just some random video i found to upload here. if you want to see good, look for what i've told you to do previously. the fact that you dismiss wing tsun so quickly is funny as hell.

media.putfile.com/sifu_Braun_Wing_Tsun_3

i think the best part about you is that every single time you respond, you try and insult me and you try a lot of make statements that dont make real sense.. then you never respond to what i say. you just continue trying to insult me. at this point, your posts aren't even talking about martial arts- they're just insulting people.

Quoted: you can't relate because you have no idea what the fuck you're talking about. maybe if you did, you might be able to get a little clue about whats going on.  do some research before you wax intellectual about martial arts. i call you kid cause thats what you act like. want me to call you something else, be mature and i will. here is a random video with wing tsun in action. i have no idea who he this guy is , its just some random video i found to upload here. if you want to see good, look for what i've told you to do previously. the fact that you dismiss wing tsun so quickly is funny as hell. media.putfile.com/sifu_Braun_Wing_Tsun_3 i think the best part about you is that every single time you respond, you try and insult me and you try a lot of make statements that dont make real sense.. then you never respond to what i say. you just continue trying to insult me. at this point, your posts aren't even talking about martial arts- they're just insulting people.

No, my point is, and has always been, in response to the opening question “Which 'art' should I peruse...ect?”
I have never once waiverd in my opinion that most of these 'arts' are ridiculous and only boxing and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu still remain full contact.

And the video clip… *barf*, really… If you don’t train hard, you wont fight hard… those guys look like they are on a set of a movie, that’s not training like I’m used to.

Thank you for posting this rediculous shit... this way I dont have to show others how fucking childish and stupid this is. They are hardley touching each other, it looks like a segal movie clip. Anyone that has trained full contact, MMA, vale-tudo, BJJ, etc will see the guy so obviously throwing himself over… he wasn’t even trying to get the guy.

That is pathetic… and maybe you expect me and others in here to believe your bullshit?
Really... do you think anyone will fall for this???

Honestly, this stuf... truley is, the most pathetic thing I have ever seen.
www.wingtsunwelt.com/german/videos/media/ggm/leungting_04.mpg

www.videos.wingtsunwelt.de/media/blitz/blitzdefence_04.mpg

I feel sorry for you if you think that THIS type of shit has prepared you for a fight... and am absolutely calling you out, just like the TittyBar Krap-Maga vindicator.

YOU ARE FULL OF SHIT... !!!!

please go do some research. that is what wing tsun will do, time and time again to people when you get good at it. like i mentioned before, there is a reason it has been used to train FBI, HRT, and marine recon. you may believe that they aren't touching each other, but i would suggest you get in that posistion. wing tsun has one goal, and one goal only, to neutralize or kill the other person. i mentioned this in the beginning, although you can go full speed, if you attack and carry out the attacks completely, you will no longer have that man to fight. he will not get back up. the effectiveness of wing tsun isn't something that people question. by doing so it makes me chuckle. i do enjoy that. did he make sure and go with the throw? yes. and?

i hate to break this too you- more than just two arts are "full contact".

fall for it? ok. dont believe me. i really dont care. you have time and time again illustrated your ignorance about the effectiveness of it, you've never been involved in a class and i suggest you do. i suggest everyone does, in the same way that i suggest everyone studies some form of JJ. its wonderful stuff. calling me out? ok. not made. i'm sure wing tsun as an art is going to take a blow because someone who doesn't know about it on is ragging it. note made. i like how the videos you picked are of people going slowly in demonstrations. heck, in one the guy is acting out the situation. he first video is a grand master. heh. find some sparring videos, see people in action- and yes. the video i posted is exactly what you do to people. i've done it, i've seen people do it. its brutal, its effective, and its mean as it gets. *shrugs* but whatever.

Quoted: please go do some research. that is what wing tsun will do, time and time again to people when you get good at it. like i mentioned before, there is a reason it has been used to train FBI, HRT, and marine recon. you may believe that they aren't touching each other, but i would suggest you get in that posistion. wing tsun has one goal, and one goal only, to neutralize or kill the other person. i mentioned this in the beginning, although you can go full speed, if you attack and carry out the attacks completely, you will no longer have that man to fight. he will not get back up. the effectiveness of wing tsun isn't something that people question. by doing so it makes me chuckle. i do enjoy that. did he make sure and go with the throw? yes. and? i hate to break this too you- more than just two arts are "full contact". fall for it? ok. dont believe me. i really dont care. you have time and time again illustrated your ignorance about the effectiveness of it, you've never been involved in a class and i suggest you do. i suggest everyone does, in the same way that i suggest everyone studies some form of JJ. its wonderful stuff. calling me out? ok. not made. i'm sure wing tsun as an art is going to take a blow because someone who doesn't know about it on is ragging it. note made. i like how the videos you picked are of people going slowly in demonstrations. heck, in one the guy is acting out the situation. he first video is a grand master. heh. find some sparring videos, see people in action- and yes. the video i posted is exactly what you do to people. i've done it, i've seen people do it. its brutal, its effective, and its mean as it gets. *shrugs* but whatever.

And where is it again in Vale-Tudo, and UFC?
Pathetic... really, pathetic.

I dont know who the first guy to think up the, I dont have to fight becuase what I know is too dangerous, but I can tell you this much, he was probalby involved in multi-level marketing, not trusted by his peers, and probalby lied about the size of his penis as well.

I study what works, not theory... I've been injured studying, it. It's why BJJ isn't very popular, it hurts... it hurst just to train it.  You think that shit is training, it's more like acting.

You shouldn't worry about what I care about, you should be re-thinking your life in regards to how 'lethal' your 'art' is.

Those video clips are pathetic, and so far, evertying I have seen about Kung Fu is pathetic.... except when I am watching the matrix that is, it's pretty cool there.

you know, for a guy whos making fun of me for having a hollywood martial arts- you might want to look into stop using the argument of a TV show as to the effectiveness of something.

yes, and i've been injured too. welcome to the club the rest of the world is in. but the fact is, i dont take too kindly to the idea of having my jugular crushed every time i spar. nor do i revel in the thought of having my jaw broken. that doesn't sound like my cup of tea. you enjoy that all you want. i'm sure you're the kind of guy who gets kicked in the balls in the morning  several times and then goes and has his friend snap his arm in half around noon  just to be tough- so a little punch in the throat is nothing. lots of martial arts hurt to train, lots of people get hurt. that is part of training. pain is part of it. i've said that before. many martial arts try and take that out here, TKD is a prime example of that. i've hurt people i've trained with by accident and i've hurt them bad. but purposefully breaking the person you're training with is a bad idea. why is it in BJJ that you dont break the arms during training, why stop at the bars and locks; as you've said yourself, the art can do it. i mean, full contact is full contact. oh, i get it; i guess its not really a good idea to complete everything you would do on the street because you are working with your friends.

heck. if BJJ/Boxing are the only two martial arts that are worth practicing, why is it that people all over the world practice other ones? why is it that the UFC title shifts? why is it that the government is too dumb to know that they shouldn't waste their time with other martial arts?

Thumper, dude, reading your replies makes my day. If you ever make it to Franklin Tennessee, I'll buy you a 20 oz. Guinness.

The real problem with most of those Kung Fu systems is that they are rarely trained in full contact, at full speed. Lot's of compliance is required to pull off some of the moves. At least the Japanese are honest enough to admit that systems like Aikido, for instance, is an art that envolves a certain level of "cooperation" between combatants.

I agree with you, If they don't get it by now they never will...

I love the story about the guy from one of the early UFC fights. He was a Wing Chun "bad ass" from California who routinely walked into Kung Fu schools in Chinatown (L.A.) to beat Chinese ass. He was virtually undefeated, which was saying alot, considering he was caucasian.

Well he stumbled into Royce Gracie's school and challenged the, then unknown, master to a fight. After talking much trash and showing a considerable amount of disrespect, Royce fucking kicked his ass! Royce ended up choking him with a triangle choke from the top position and repeatedly slapped and derided him for several agonizing minutes.

Here is the real irony. This all happened BEFORE this guy fought in the UFC. After getting his ass handed to him by Royce, he humbly, and wisely, asked to be trained by the Gracies. They took him in and trained him in ground fighting.

During his first, and only, UFC bout, he used the same triangle from the top to submit his opponent...warm fuzzies...

Keep this in mind: There are Martial Arts, Martial Sports and Martial Sciences. Arts are just that: pretty but not very effective in the real world. They are great for perserving culture and beauty and that's about it.

Sports are just that: there are rules in sports. There are no rules on the street. No one gets points. Someone goes home to the wife and kids and the other guy goes to the emergency room or worse.

Martial science is about learning the most effective way to completely dominate an opponent and end a confrontation. The reason BJJ works so well is because it is rooted in Martial Science.

The reason the Gracies know that arm bars work is because they have broken peoples arms! The reason they know that knee bars and ankle locks work is because they have torn ACLs dislocated peoples ankles. The reason they know the Rear Naked Choke works is because the have knocked hundreds of people out over the years in full contact "tap or snap" fights.

The same goes for Muay Thai and Western Boxing. MT fighters break peoples shins all the freaking time. They knock people out cold all the time. They elbow, knee and choke people out all the time. Just turn on the T.V.!  Boxers knock people out all the time (that is a little obvious, I know.) You just don't see Kung Fu guys fighting no holds barred...it just doesn't happen...

In Kung Fu classes what passes for sparring is laughable. I'm sorry but it's true. My brother, who trains Muay Thai, Wing Chun, Western Boxing and BJJ with me, occasionaly attends (or used to) a local Kung Fu school when we had down time from our training schedule to keep in shape. This school teaches Shaolin systems (?) and some animal stuff ( Lions and Tigers, oh my!.) My bro stands 5'6" and is 150 lbs soaking wet. "Sparring" on Thursday night was his favorite time. He would routinely kick every single ass in attendance using basic Western Boxing, a little Wing Chun (when some fool left an arm hanging in the air) and ALWAYS took the fight to the ground without the slightest of resistance whatsoever.

The only guy that he couldn't completely dominate in stand-up was a kid that had some serious Muay Thai training, but even he got schooled when my bro decided to ground his action.  I've literally forgotten more BJJ than my brother has ever learned. He is a basic BJJ fighter in the strictest sense.

Last comment for today...about the UFC. Yes there are rules. Yes there are judges. Yes there are time limits. Yes there are weight classes. In short, yes it's a "sport."  However it is THE place (as well as King of the Cage and Pride, etc.) to test a system or skill. It is a close as you can get to a street fight and still live to tell the story. Just about any kind of strike is allowable. Knees, elbows, kicks, punches, throws, sweeps, headbutts, chokes etc. Arts that rely on fine motor skills don't cut the mustard. Once the adrenaline gets pumping, only gross motor skills seem to function. The styles that really work in these conditions rise to the top of the heap: Muay Thai, Western Boxing and BJJ (mixed with Greco Roman and freestyle wrestling.)

If you Kung Fu dudes are so bad-ass where are you in the ring? Why aren't you, or someone, representing your art in full contact fights?

I say all of this with the utmost respect for traditional Martial Arts, while acknowledging that they are just that: Art.

duxryu

remember the movie street fighter, jean cleade van damn character, frank dux was based on a real person who developed his own fighting style

Dude. Frank Dux is a fake...

Quoted: But purposefully breaking the person you're training with is a bad idea. why is it in BJJ that you dont break the arms during training, why stop at the bars and locks;

This brings up a good point about BJJ or judo.  The main advantage that these two arts have isn't that the techniques is so much better.  It's that it's relatively easy to practice the techniques at something approaching full resistance without getting serious injured, something that is NOT easy to do with any striking art.  If someone is about to break your arm in BJJ, you just tap out.  It's a little harder to stop that kick that's about to break your shin in mid-flight.

If you are able to practice more effectively without getting hurt or being held back by the fear of getting hurt, you are going to progress (in technique, not belt accumulation) faster than if not.  That being the case, the question becomes are you progressing in something that is actually useful?

The first 2 UFC's are probably the best gauge for comparing traditional martial arts against BJJ.  In the first UFC, there literally were no rules, and a lot of the rules you see today were to keep the sport from being banned.  The early UFCs featured biting, fishhooking, and one guy getting pummeled mercilessly in the nuts.    And the traditional martial artists got their asses kicked.  The idea that you'll just palm strike or snap kick the guy as he's shooting in to take you down just doesn't work that well in practice.

heck. if BJJ/Boxing are the only two martial arts that are worth practicing, why is it that people all over the world practice other ones? why is it that the UFC title shifts? why is it that the government is too dumb to know that they shouldn't waste their time with other martial arts?

Who said that BJJ/boxing are the only two martial arts worth practicing?  Most BJJ people will readily admit BJJ is not a complete art and a lot of BJJ guys cross train in Muy Thai.  And the UFC title shifts because fights are between fighters, not styles, and everyone has had time to learn and adapt to BJJ and groundfighting in general.  One thing you have never seen and never will see, however, is a MMA champion who doesn't have some sort of ground defense.  And their ground defense looks an awful lot like Brazilian jiu-jitsu to me, since, AFAIK, Tae Kwon Do, American Wrestling, Karate, etc didn't have the closed guard 20 years ago.

Drakich gets it also. Any other converts?

No one knew what the hell "guard" was untill Royce and his family. Now eveyone trains defending it or passing it. Go back and watch the first few UFC fights featuring Royce. Even the stupid announcers would say of Royce on his back "Royce is in a really bad position here..." The next thing you know Kimo, or whoever, is tapping out like a school girl, and the announcers are flipping out in utter amazement.

Remember in the beginning the Gracies would take out ads in the L.A. times offering cash to anyone who could beat them in a fight.
As far as I know they never lost a penny...and you can believe some pretty grizzly dudes showed up to collect.

Quoted: you know, for a guy whos making fun of me for having a hollywood martial arts- you might want to look into stop using the argument of a TV show as to the effectiveness of something. yes, and i've been injured too. welcome to the club the rest of the world is in. but the fact is, i dont take too kindly to the idea of having my jugular crushed every time i spar. nor do i revel in the thought of having my jaw broken. that doesn't sound like my cup of tea. you enjoy that all you want. i'm sure you're the kind of guy who gets kicked in the balls in the morning  several times and then goes and has his friend snap his arm in half around noon  just to be tough- so a little punch in the throat is nothing. lots of martial arts hurt to train, lots of people get hurt. that is part of training. pain is part of it. i've said that before. many martial arts try and take that out here, TKD is a prime example of that. i've hurt people i've trained with by accident and i've hurt them bad. but purposefully breaking the person you're training with is a bad idea. why is it in BJJ that you dont break the arms during training, why stop at the bars and locks; as you've said yourself, the art can do it. i mean, full contact is full contact. oh, i get it; i guess its not really a good idea to complete everything you would do on the street because you are working with your friends. heck. if BJJ/Boxing are the only two martial arts that are worth practicing, why is it that people all over the world practice other ones? why is it that the UFC title shifts? why is it that the government is too dumb to know that they shouldn't waste their time with other martial arts?

"why is it in BJJ that you dont break the arms during training, why stop at the bars and locks"
You are a bonefied dipshit...

Quoted: This brings up a good point about BJJ or judo.  The main advantage that these two arts have isn't that the techniques is so much better.  It's that it's relatively easy to practice the techniques at something approaching full resistance without getting serious injured, something that is NOT easy to do with any striking art.  If someone is about to break your arm in BJJ, you just tap out.  It's a little harder to stop that kick that's about to break your shin in mid-flight. If you are able to practice more effectively without getting hurt or being held back by the fear of getting hurt, you are going to progress (in technique, not belt accumulation) faster than if not.  That being the case, the question becomes are you progressing in something that is actually useful? The first 2 UFC's are probably the best gauge for comparing traditional martial arts against BJJ.  In the first UFC, there literally were no rules, and a lot of the rules you see today were to keep the sport from being banned.  The early UFCs featured biting, fishhooking, and one guy getting pummeled mercilessly in the nuts.    And the traditional martial artists got their asses kicked.  The idea that you'll just palm strike or snap kick the guy as he's shooting in to take you down just doesn't work that well in practice. Who said that BJJ/boxing are the only two martial arts worth practicing?  Most BJJ people will readily admit BJJ is not a complete art and a lot of BJJ guys cross train in Muy Thai.  And the UFC title shifts because fights are between fighters, not styles, and everyone has had time to learn and adapt to BJJ and groundfighting in general.  One thing you have never seen and never will see, however, is a MMA champion who doesn't have some sort of ground defense.  And their ground defense looks an awful lot like Brazilian jiu-jitsu to me, since, AFAIK, Tae Kwon Do, American Wrestling, Karate, etc didn't have the closed guard 20 years ago.

i agree with a lot of what you've said. BJJ offers wonderful things and it is easier to train with. however, i was emphasizing the style of wing tsun as being worth studying, atleast for a while because of the abilities it gives you. the control over people is an amazing one in there and many of the things you learn fit wonderfully with other arts. for me, it was easier to learn the style with more direct results in my overall style. a lot of parts of wing tsun are very very effective. i've been trying to say from the very beginning that them most effective thing in the world is to blend several martial arts to you, having them all at your disposal because each has certain things that are wonderful. i strongly encouage wing tsun as a starting point because the principals of control it gives you and the ability to work over your opponent is a wonderful thing and really comes to your advantage in any other martial art. However, he wont seem to budge on the idea that anything BJJ is worth studying at all. He continually comes back with stories about this guy and that guy- but doesn't actually talk about martial arts. effective practice defiately allows you more hands on experience, but that isn't the only thing that does. i'm not trying to downplay the effects of that form of sparring, it definately enables some wonderful experiences, but i also have found that lengthy discussions on why and how the muscles work, how the bones move, the nerves, and everything like that to be very educational as to where,why, and how my strike was. i also would point out the highly effective nature of the training to the FBI, HRT, USMC force recon, ect. each style has their own thing. and like i said, BJJ is wonderful for ground defense- i just dont attempt to end on the ground in every fight and even when it does, the things in BJJ work very well with whats in wing tsun. both teach elements of ground fighting- BJJ just concentrates in it. i've been trying to urge people to study several martial arts from the beginning and still do. BJJ is definately one of those that should be studied. So is wing tsun, and i believe that a lot of different exercises are required/should be/can be used to toughen your abilities in a fight.

Quoted: i agree with a lot of what you've said. BJJ offers wonderful things and it is easier to train with. however, i was emphasizing the style of wing tsun as being worth studying, atleast for a while because of the abilities it gives you. the control over people is an amazing one in there and many of the things you learn fit wonderfully with other arts. for me, it was easier to learn the style with more direct results in my overall style. a lot of parts of wing tsun are very very effective. i've been trying to say from the very beginning that them most effective thing in the world is to blend several martial arts to you, having them all at your disposal because each has certain things that are wonderful. i strongly encouage wing tsun as a starting point because the principals of control it gives you and the ability to work over your opponent is a wonderful thing and really comes to your advantage in any other martial art. However, he wont seem to budge on the idea that anything BJJ is worth studying at all. He continually comes back with stories about this guy and that guy- but doesn't actually talk about martial arts. effective practice defiately allows you more hands on experience, but that isn't the only thing that does. i'm not trying to downplay the effects of that form of sparring, it definately enables some wonderful experiences, but i also have found that lengthy discussions on why and how the muscles work, how the bones move, the nerves, and everything like that to be very educational as to where,why, and how my strike was. i also would point out the highly effective nature of the training to the FBI, HRT, USMC force recon, ect. each style has their own thing. and like i said, BJJ is wonderful for ground defense- i just dont attempt to end on the ground in every fight and even when it does, the things in BJJ work very well with whats in wing tsun. both teach elements of ground fighting- BJJ just concentrates in it. i've been trying to urge people to study several martial arts from the beginning and still do. BJJ is definately one of those that should be studied. So is wing tsun, and i believe that a lot of different exercises are required/should be/can be used to toughen your abilities in a fight.

HEY, Jackie Chan... You’re still here?
You sure can take a lot more abuse than the titty bar, Krap maga vindicator, I’ll give you that!!!

You are full of shit, and I wont stand for you to even let others PRETEND that you have trained on the ground, if you think that this bull shit is as effective as BJJ.
And to call BJJ 'a good ground defense'... fuck.... THERE IS NO DEFENSE IN A FIGHT!!! When first started learning I was told repeatedly that there is no defense, only offense... period.

Nobody ever won a fight by blocking! The only way you can stop someone in a ‘real world’ fight (as you like to so often point out) is one of a few ways:
1. Break a vital bone
2. Cut off their air supply/bloodflow to the brain
3. cuase a massive loss of blood.

You think punching a clay pot makes you tough… I got news for you, my head is a LOT harder that the clay pot… and I hit back.
You think you can control someone in a fight, I say this proves you have never been in one.

Nothing goes as planned, they don’t stand in the right place, all those acute, highly tuned strikes that you ‘think’ you have, goe bye bye when the adrenaline starts pumping.

Take all that theory, inner Chi, Yoda, and ‘May the force be with you’ bull shit and stick it up your ass sideways... I hope to be there when you train w/some BJJ guys, and after you tap so much we think you are trying so say 'fuck me... this hurts' in morse code. You'll probably say thank you when they tell you your game is weak.

Kung Fu is, as is your lame shit based on my research, for losers who got beat up in junior high, and I know where you guys get sold on this shit; it's after you watched Karate Kid, Segal, Matrix, and Jet Li movies and think that you can now 'defend the girls honor.'

And really... if I didn't emphasize this enough when I said it the 1st time... HOW DARE YOU come in here w/this bull-shit about being able to defend yourself against multiple attackers, yielding... baton’s I think it was… PUHLEEEZE! Your lies are some of the most insulting bullshit I have ever heard.

Poser!

Thanks to PUBBOY for making some sense of this... I'll definitely take you up on the beer when I make it through TN.

few quick points
1) funny you mention blocking, because wing tsun agrees with you. good call. i knew you would find footing with it in its way of thinking- the aggressive attack orientied system.
2) there is tons of defense, defense is not strictly limited to blocking. i'm sorry to say that if you think that every hit someone throws will automatically land, you are wrong. controlling distance, controlling  angles, control posistion- those are defense, and they can be actively part of attacking. back to point one here, defense can be offense.
3) furthermore, if you think of fighting as anything more than a form of defense, self-defense, you and i arne't talking about the same thing. i avoid fights. i dont like them, and i dont like hurting people. i use the term defense to talk about any action i take. my style and many other very serious and good ones, BJJ included, do not work on that tired old "block, punch" crap. please refer to point one again.
4) you're right. i've never been in a fight. this is clear because my experience does not match with the episdoes of UFC you watch. *rolls eyes*
5) you are saying it is impossible to control someone in a fight and yet you are advocating a system that teaches the ability to control. thats funny to me. thanks.
6) when i mentioned being able to defend yourself against multiple people, especially in regard to the scissor kick and blunt weapons as you mentioned- not me, i was actually writing in regard to a specific story about a specific guy i know and have studied under briefly. Grand Master Roger Jones who teaches karakido among other things. really nice guy. further, when i've said that it is possible to defend against multiple attackers- it is. its a quick engagement of individuals to a point in which escape is possible.

Quoted: few quick points 1) funny you mention blocking, because wing tsun agrees with you. good call. i knew you would find footing with it in its way of thinking- the aggressive attack orientied system. 2) there is tons of defense, defense is not strictly limited to blocking. i'm sorry to say that if you think that every hit someone throws will automatically land, you are wrong. controlling distance, controlling  angles, control posistion- those are defense, and they can be actively part of attacking. back to point one here, defense can be offense. 3) furthermore, if you think of fighting as anything more than a form of defense, self-defense, you and i arne't talking about the same thing. i avoid fights. i dont like them, and i dont like hurting people. i use the term defense to talk about any action i take. my style and many other very serious and good ones, BJJ included, do not work on that tired old "block, punch" crap. please refer to point one again. 4) you're right. i've never been in a fight. this is clear because my experience does not match with the episdoes of UFC you watch. *rolls eyes* 5) you are saying it is impossible to control someone in a fight and yet you are advocating a system that teaches the ability to control. thats funny to me. thanks. 6) when i mentioned being able to defend yourself against multiple people i was actually writing in regard to a specific story about a specific guy i know and have studied under briefly. Grand Master Roger Jones who teaches karakido among other things. really nice guy.

I cant help you... A Brazilian, however, probably can. Go find a school, in your area:
bjj.org/academies/

Chances are you will thank me later, as soon as you figure out all your 'lethal' bullshit, is tired, proven wrong, and is good for laughs.

Go find another thread if you dont understand.

i've studied some BJJ before, and have been looking to get back into it. there isn't a school in my area and so until i move in another year, i'm not going to be able to. much as it may surprise you, i'm not opposed to learning BJJ and actually have been looking to study it more in depth. i also suggest you take some wing tsun classes, they give you amazing benefit- even if you dont like the style. there are elements in every style that are highly effective.

no response about my "lethal bullshit" being used by the FBI, force recon, HRT- all by one instructor? didn't think so. the fact is- it is effective.

Quoted: i've studied some BJJ before, and have been looking to get back into it. there isn't a school in my area and so until i move in another year, i'm not going to be able to. much as it may surprise you, i'm not opposed to learning BJJ and actually have been looking to study it more in depth. i also suggest you take some wing tsun classes, they give you amazing benefit- even if you dont like the style. there are elements in every style that are highly effective. no response about my "lethal bullshit" being used by the FBI, force recon, HRT- all by one instructor? didn't think so. the fact is- it is effective.

OK... here goes; of the 5 or 6 FBI agents I know personally, they couldn't fight their way out of a wet brown paper bag.
HRT is supposed to be tough, but they may only be the toughest FBI, which could be like being the coolest nerd? I'm sure they could run my out of shape ass into the ground on their obstacle course, but on the ground they better know what they are doing, and since they are cops, they HAVE to take someone to the ground to submit them. My brother in law is SWAT, and he is a pretty fit guy for his 5"10 175lbs, former marine, etc.  They had some 'expert' in 'advanced ground fighting' come charge them thousands... he learned nothing useful when paired with a skilled BJJ practitioner. As an added FYI; at the federal level, the US border patrol tactical unit has some scrapperss…

Talking about Marines; download the Marine H2H combat manual, it's filled with Judo take downs, Jiu-Jitsu manipulations, and some practical strikes that make sense. My grand father was trained to eye-gouge, bite, and tear someone’s throat out in WWII.

The way I see it, there are two ways to learn to fight:
1. get in a fight
2. get in a fight.

The closest thing to a ‘real’ fight is probably Vale Tudo... it's where the best prove it.

My experience has taught me that every fight I got into has gone to the ground; in fact thhe worst ass whipping I ever took was at in front of a bar in Shreveport. LA in the summer of 1995... I was sent to the emergency room and they thought my retina was detached. The guy was a ‘kick boxer’ and had a bit of a rep for being a bad-ass. He hit me see hard, I don’t even remember if it was a foot or a hand, but it  indented to take my head off.

Problem is, I never went unconscious...  and, was even able to wrap my arms around him just to keep him from punching me till the fight was broken up.  If I had known then, what I know now... I would have probably broken his arm and choked him till he quit breathing. I honestly thought he was trying to kill me, at least that is what it felt like and what others who saw said it looked like.

Anyway, through the years, we somehow managed to remain civil as we realized how dumb it was to fight over who slept w/who’s GF.  I called him a few months into BJJ, asking if he wanted a rematch… (Meant to be a joke).  He told me that he was retired from fighting, as someone got a hold of him and really messed him up. He has had 4 surgeries and lives on pain pills… true story.

Tough is tough, and any training is better than no training. But, you better get this Aikido ‘theory of circles’ myth out of your head… like said, it’s only good for the movies.

Oh, here is that fight that PUBBOY was talking about, Royce vs the Kung Fu expert, it really does say a lot:
www.compfused.com/directlink/652/

Quoted: Dude. Frank Dux is a fake...

I'm Frank Dux....

I can kick your ass

just kidding    h.gif

haha. thats a wonderful video. really makes me wonder what style of "kung fu" this guy studied. i dont think that guy was anywhere near in the same catagory as gracie there. then again, i'm not sure the point of self proclaimed experts(which are nameless might i add) walking around. anyway, he hasn't been trained in any sort of ground work. that was amazingly obvious in the video. i would suggest trying to find videos of Emin Boztepe sparring. i'm trying to find one now, but not having much luck. Jugen Kestner is another believer in wing tsun, 3 time champion in europe, and was the chief of special police in germany. the list is endless of people who have gained stuff from it.

i've got the marine h2h manual, read it and all that jazz. good book, but its pretty standard, a mix of several martial arts into a nice conglaboration. i'm fought marines, they're a whole different ballpark than fighting force recon. i worked with a recon guy a few years ago, worked with him for around 2 years. they're good when they're standing, and they're good when they go to the ground. those guys are amazing and wing tsun was a suitable art for them to be trained with also. it holds something. i've always been taught to take any opportunity someone presents- ears, eyes, throats, whatever. hell, the throat is the most common place i hit at.

oh a happy note, that "ninja" wasn't as bad as this one->
enter afro ninja

anyway, i do suggest you look into wing tsun, if for nothing else, i really think you could benefit from the theories they teach you. the principals of the body and everything. not just how, but why. that has allowed me amazing jumps in my skill just by studying the "why".

edit: just watched gracie vs Hidehiko Yoshida. good fight. also just watched several sparrs between some random MT and WT guys. that was pretty funny, they weren't anywhere near the same level. it was like watching a college grad pick on a 4th grader.

To long to read now.
Tag for reading after work

Quoted: haha. thats a wonderful video. really makes me wonder what style of "kung fu" this guy studied. i dont think that guy was anywhere near in the same catagory as gracie there.

I dont know why you talk about 'levels' from watching this video.
This is the guy that PUBBOY was talking about, undefeated in Kung Fu schools... taking the Gracie challange.

This guy, a multi-level black belt, didnt even land a single kick... It shows how utterly useless that bullshit you study is, it's all bullshit.  Show me some real fight, where it used, and I'll stand corrected.

Good luck... otherwise... shut your hole.

for a second there i thought you were going to stop being a complete cock.
i was completely wrong.

marine force recon 4th batallion, Emin Boztepe, German Special Police, Jugen Kestner, FBI Hostage Rescue, ect ect. do your own research, i'm not going to bother for a jackass.

And why would I do that Karate man... I've been fairly consistent in calling you guys out for what you are? What I've seen, read, and watched, even at your own submission... is fucking offensive.

You think you can 'controll' someone in a fight, and I say sure; so long as someone else is holding them. Go thwack your chins some more with a water-hose, take your nut-sack, and dip it in fire ants, do hand stands on your pinky's, or hang cinder-blocks from your nipples, it wont teach you how to scrap. You better learn how to handle yourself on the ground.

You still talk like a fat slob at the water cooler in our customer service call center defending that Light Sabers are real.
I hate guys like you, and I am ashamed to share this forum thread with you!!!


You think you are a lethal weapon, I think you are  a tool w/too large an ego to admit you are wrong.
Maybe you should start studying Krav Maga?

POSER!

Damnit Insurance Man!!! For a second there my heart skipped a beat!!!
I was about to grab my Kimber and wait for you to pull into my driveway!!!

I love it...

Cigolon, that video is freaking funny!!!

By the way, I have studied only a bit of wing chun and add what I have found useful to my mix. The traditional stance, I have found as did Bruce Lee, is unusable in the street. Throwing a bit into a Western Boxing routine is kinda cool. My boxing teacher loves throwing some of it into the mix. The idea of "holding center" doesn't work for me since I like to "give center" for takedowns etc. Our instructor wants us to take it to the ground and end it quick, since most guys haven't a clue what to do on the ground. In a fight "boxing" may be only a "jab-cross" or "bob&weave/body hook -high hook" combination, but it is always followed by a simple takedown and quick and dirty BJJ.

Thumper, take it easy! Can't we all just get along... Also, thanks for the video link on Kung Fu boy getting jacked up!
Damn, Royce is smooth.

Quoted: Cigolon, that video is freaking funny!!! By the way, I have studied only a bit of wing chun and add what I have found useful to my mix. The traditional stance, I have found as did Bruce Lee, is unusable in the street. Throwing a bit into a Western Boxing routine is kinda cool. My boxing teacher loves throwing some of it into the mix. The idea of "holding center" doesn't work for me since I like to "give center" for takedowns etc. Our instructor wants us to take it to the ground and end it quick, since most guys haven't a clue what to do on the ground. In a fight "boxing" may be only a "jab-cross" or "bob&weave/body hook -high hook" combination, but it is always followed by a simple takedown and quick and dirty BJJ. Thumper, take it easy! Can't we all just get along... Also, thanks for the video link on Kung Fu boy getting jacked up! Damn, Royce is smooth.

yeh. thats all i've been trying to say, each art has stuff that is worth looking into, and wing tsun definately is not one that is completely left out in the dark. that and it is very good if you get good with it. but, i've moved away from the stance but still rely on the principals of centerline just and definately rely on what i learned in the sticky hands drill and in the speed of attacks. i mixed that with what i picked up from sparring with a force recon guy a few years back; the attacking on multiple levels at the same time. i find that when you make several quick strikes with the hands, not to mention a go at the knee, most people are not able to block it. same principal behind the double kick and the left-right jab in boxing.

wing tsun is ment to be very close, and most people are not comfortable when you are that close, and they are especially not good at regaining control if you take it. similarly to bruce and a ton of others, i've found the upper body conditioning of boxing is a wonderful place to work the arms into the mix and likewise found muay thai leg blocks as a wonderful thing. i think my three favorite things vs kicking are either counterkicking(i've got fast legs), knee blocks, or leg traps. i try and stay off the ground because i like mobility, i'm perfectly ok with going to the ground, but i really prefer to finish it standing. its also where i'm better which i'm working to fix. since most of the fights anyone will ever actually have are going to be street trouble at most, the chances are that a few quick moves can take them down.  but yeh, wing tsun mixes wonderfully with anything- even if you dont take everything from it, its worth having in your mix and gives you some advantages.

i remember when i started studying with GM Roger Jones this black belt in TKD came in and he was pretty good, he was confident, and he was fast as hell. but i just sat there and moved around his kicks until he gave me one i wanted, didn't take more than a few seconds. i trapped that thing, and had him on the ground with his ankle twisted and my heel on him. i also ran in with a BJJ guy there, he tried to take me down and almost every time he did i was able to reverse the fall. i actually ended up hurting him doing that.

i agree with you about the ground, most people dont have the slightest idea when it gets there. i've found that BJJ and wing tsun work very togeather in that regard, both in on ground fighting and in the control while going to the ground.

i thought you would enjoy a real ninja :)

Quoted: i also ran in with a BJJ guy there, he tried to take me down and almost every time he did i was able to reverse the fall. i actually ended up hurting him doing that. i thought you would enjoy a real ninja :)

C'mon cigolon... we need your expertise and your guidance in here!
Please, show us the way!!!


Guys... please take a look at this pathetic bullshit, it's really offensive.

WingTsunstuff.mpeg

video/wt/KeithKernspetch.mpeg

video/wt/PortugueseWTguy.mpeg

Cigolon... I am starting to want to hurt you. Really... I want you to feel pain.

OMG... JUST WHEN I THOUGHT IT COULDN'T GET ANY FUNNIER, HERE IS THE SCHOOL... JUST A FEW MILES DOWN THE ROAD FROM ME AS I SPEAK... I'M GOING TO TRAIN!!!

BWAAAA HAAA HAA HAAA!!!

www.austinwt.com/multimedia/awt_wsd_high.wmv

Gigolon, Frank Dux called... he wants you to help him re-write the Navy seal combat manual!
martialarts.jameshom.com/library/weekly/aa073001d.htm

HA... POSER!!!

wow dude. you really have reaffirmed what i said- that you're immature and a kid. the fact that even pubboy who you agreed with has sided with me saying that there were useful elements in wing tsun that have fit very well within other arts in mixed styels doesn't persuade you from your hostilities.  i dont think you could have a discussion with anyone you dont agree with. makes it pointless. i'm starting to see why this thread trailled on for so long and why so many people gave up talking to you.