Yep... that's me, the dumb kid.  
What exactly (by your own definition) constitutes a man; age, intelligence, life experience, a family, career?

Give it your best shot... I’ve got something good for you in the morning.

a man is a grown up boy. a man is about maturity. you seem to be lacking that.
perhaps i'm wrong, but you seem like an overly hostile and hyper-sensitive bullheaded 15 year old.
you're never wrong, and the only way you can respond is by insulting someone.
*shrugs* take that as you may, thats how i see it.

Quoted: a man is a grown up boy. a man is about maturity. you seem to be lacking that. perhaps i'm wrong, but you seem like an overly hostile and hyper-sensitive bullheaded 15 year old. you're never wrong, and the only way you can respond is by insulting someone. *shrugs* take that as you may, thats how i see it.

Fair enough – However, is Frank Dux mature?
His entire life is built around a lie… just like Steven Segal, these guys never proved anything; they just sold the same horse-shit that you fell for to some movie producer.

Why is Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu not in action movies?
My guess is for the same reason time-limits and ‘aggression’ points have been added into UFC… it looks, honestly, pretty boring. Do you think Matrix would have been a box office sensation if Neo and Agent Smith were trying to pass each others guard? No… it would have gone straight to video.

Oh, and back to the maturity thing; what about the poor slobs that always wear camo to the range, who claim to be ex special forces, that often times, live with their parents, and have star wars action figures decorating their cubes at work… are you saying that all they have to do is be cordial, and agree with other bull-shitters to be mature?

I’m not the one in here telling people I can break your leg with one kick, or your arm without leveraging my entire body on the joint while pinned to the ground, or that I can fight multiple attackers. If anything, I think I being realistic… are you?

Kung Fu is completely useless in a fight… you just don’t know it yet.

Oh, and don't call me a Kid again… I’ve earned the right to be called a Man, and Men are allowed to call other so called ‘men’ out when they are selling snake-oil.

yes, my entire life is based off of segals under seige. however did you know? my point about immaturity is based about the one thing i've seen of you and that is your conduct in this thread primarily. you are behaving in a very immature fashion. that means that to me, you are immature. if that represents you or not is another matter, but since this is the only thing i see of you- its the only thing i judge you on. although i do appreciate your last post not being with the same overtly hostile nature.

i didn't say i can break your arm without levering the body against it, i said i can do it without being on the ground. hell, some of the basic standing drills that i've seen in BJJ videos practice some of the very similar moves to the stuff used in wing tsun and numerous other arts. the fact is that you dont need to be on the ground to break someones arm. that simply is incorrect. Leverage is important, and it can be gained a number of ways. the body turns and bends at certain points and in certain ways. you can lock that out and break it without having to be on the ground to do so. as for legs, you can break or dislocate them with a well placed kick.  the body is amazingly resiliant and amazingly fragile at the same time. all you have to do is know how and where to push. angles can give you the ability to work over someones arm for instance without having to use your body weight. you should know this, its not merely about weight and size in a fight although it is helpful and adventagous.

you keep saying i've never been in a fight, and i wish you lucky with your career with ms cleo but i'm not going to bother arguing with you about it. one of us knows the truth, the other believes they know something. so, you believe i've never been in a fight, i know the truth. i'll let you have your beliefs because i have better things to do.

i definately thing that some martial arts are more suited to the movies because of their showmanship. military movies never get really exciting when you watch a fast 2-3 second fight in which some special forces guy kills some other one. as we already know, the military has found a place for wing tsun. so i agree with you. i really do think that it has something that fits very well in other arts, but you dont. thats your opinion and i have mine. i and many others have found the advantages it can give you when blended, but you prefer to dismiss it entirely. thats your choice. i've noticed that by studying wing tsun my skill in other arts has increased because of my ability to understand the movement potential of the body and the ways in which the counters work.

Quoted: yes, my entire life is based off of segals under seige. however did you know? my point about immaturity is based about the one thing i've seen of you and that is your conduct in this thread primarily. you are behaving in a very immature fashion. that means that to me, you are immature. if that represents you or not is another matter, but since this is the only thing i see of you- its the only thing i judge you on. although i do appreciate your last post not being with the same overtly hostile nature. i didn't say i can break your arm without levering the body against it, i said i can do it without being on the ground. hell, some of the basic standing drills that i've seen in BJJ videos practice some of the very similar moves to the stuff used in wing tsun and numerous other arts. the fact is that you dont need to be on the ground to break someones arm. that simply is incorrect. Leverage is important, and it can be gained a number of ways. the body turns and bends at certain points and in certain ways. you can lock that out and break it without having to be on the ground to do so. as for legs, you can break or dislocate them with a well placed kick.  the body is amazingly resiliant and amazingly fragile at the same time. all you have to do is know how and where to push. angles can give you the ability to work over someones arm for instance without having to use your body weight. you should know this, its not merely about weight and size in a fight although it is helpful and adventagous. you keep saying i've never been in a fight, and i wish you lucky with your career with ms cleo but i'm not going to bother arguing with you about it. one of us knows the truth, the other believes they know something. so, you believe i've never been in a fight, i know the truth. i'll let you have your beliefs because i have better things to do. i definately thing that some martial arts are more suited to the movies because of their showmanship. military movies never get really exciting when you watch a fast 2-3 second fight in which some special forces guy kills some other one. as we already know, the military has found a place for wing tsun. so i agree with you. i really do think that it has something that fits very well in other arts, but you dont. thats your opinion and i have mine. i and many others have found the advantages it can give you when blended, but you prefer to dismiss it entirely. thats your choice. i've noticed that by studying wing tsun my skill in other arts has increased because of my ability to understand the movement potential of the body and the ways in which the counters work.

Quit trying to shift blame to me, calling me immature, just because you don’t like getting called out.

And, since you say Wing Tsun Kung Fu is not purely theory, even though it is based on a Chinese theatrical art, then surely it has been proven… RIGHT?
If so, then where… who is currently using, or has ever used Wing Tsun in UFC or Vale Tudo???
Why did no one ever collect the $100K Gracie Challenge?
Why does everyone now incorporate BJJ into their game, claiming it has been part of their craft for centuries?
Oh... and how’s the video gaming coming along?

The entire communication process with you has reminded me of the rich private school jerk-off 16 years ago that wouldn’t race my mustang w/his Porsche, saying he’s above it, everyone knows his car is faster… so he didn’t have to race. I think he was related to Frank Dux.

Showing me videos of guys pulling punches recalling doesn’t do anything other than get a laugh.
Burden is now on you to back up your claims… I have said my part.


I say, ‘PROVE IT!’

lol. again, for a guy who accuses me of a movie art, you revert your argument to TV very quickly.

the fact is that wing tsun is used and i listed what one trainer had done and several other programs internationally. the fact that you continue to ignore that makes me smile.
FBI, German Special Police, FBI Hostage Rescue, Marine Force Recon, ect . those are a few of them.

based on theatre? oh, you mean the red boat opera company. thats nice. i suggest you read a little more about that theory of history for wing tsun from which most of the linages come. it was actually a cover for opponents of the Qing Dynasty who used it as a front. it was a counter revolutionary movement if i recall correctly.

ground fighting has long had a history in various parts of the world, why is it that many people are using americanized boxing now? does it hold something than many of the other styles do not? perhaps in regard to what it focuses on.  BJJ is wonderful, and the point of martial arts is to adapt. accept what is useful, reject what is useless. why adapt and include BJJ into styles? because its useful and covers ground fighting aspects amazingly well.  other systems also have their strengths.

the fact that you continue to ignore the fact that multiple high LEO agencies use it as proof that it is effective makes me smile. but whatever. i'm not actually interesting in convincing you and i'm not going to bother scounging for videos. i really dont care if you believe me. i have said what i've wanted to say and have cited enough evidence to atleast make someone with an open mind interested and clear to them that wing tsun has application and theory behind it. even pubboy has said that wing tsun fits very well with upper body fighting and his boxing coach loves when he throws it in. there is a reason for that.

and by the way, i really could care less that you "call me out". it doesn't bother me in the slightest and this thread has served for little more than amusement for me.

Quoted: lol. again, for a guy who accuses me of a movie art, you revert your argument to TV very quickly. the fact is that wing tsun is used and i listed what one trainer had done and several other programs internationally. the fact that you continue to ignore that makes me smile. FBI, German Special Police, FBI Hostage Rescue, Marine Force Recon, ect . those are a few of them. based on theatre? oh, you mean the red boat opera company. thats nice. i suggest you read a little more about that theory of history for wing tsun from which most of the linages come. it was actually a cover for opponents of the Qing Dynasty who used it as a front. it was a counter revolutionary movement if i recall correctly. ground fighting has long had a history in various parts of the world, why is it that many people are using americanized boxing now? does it hold something than many of the other styles do not? perhaps in regard to what it focuses on.  BJJ is wonderful, and the point of martial arts is to adapt. accept what is useful, reject what is useless. why adapt and include BJJ into styles? because its useful and covers ground fighting aspects amazingly well.  other systems also have their strengths. the fact that you continue to ignore the fact that multiple high LEO agencies use it as proof that it is effective makes me smile. but whatever. i'm not actually interesting in convincing you and i'm not going to bother scounging for videos. i really dont care if you believe me. i have said what i've wanted to say and have cited enough evidence to atleast make someone with an open mind interested and clear to them that wing tsun has application and theory behind it. even pubboy has said that wing tsun fits very well with upper body fighting and his boxing coach loves when he throws it in. there is a reason for that. and by the way, i really could care less that you "call me out". it doesn't bother me in the slightest and this thread has served for little more than amusement for me.

Jet Li doesn’t know when to quit!
It does no good... it's like talking to a Bush apologist about WMD and Sept 11th, or a liberal about gun control!!!

And, I know how much time you spend w/all of those stances, thinking that you are training… but I’ve got news for you, Kung Fu... is utterly, and completely,  USELESS in a fight!  If you think that Marine Force Recon is taught Kung Fu, I need to get out of this thread before I become infected by the lies that perpetuate your cause.

Even Tae Kwon Do has some realistic strikes, but Kung Fu… I can’t take anymore of this; I’ve reached my pain threshold.

Boxing, Kick Boxing/MT, and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu (in addition to the common fucking sense to know when to run from multiple, armed, attackers) is the way to go home to the wife and kid.  I should not have to tell you this… go re-decorate your lord of the rings nativity seen, and go play some more ghost recon, BF2, whatever guys like you play.

I hope to be there when you get completely dominated trying to act like Bruce Lee and see the look on your face when you realize that you have lived a lie.
Until then… good luck.

you call me a liar, but i would suggest you do some research.
it might make you look a little less incorrect
i'lll even help by linking you to a google search
www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Emin+Boztepe+marine&btnG=Google+Search
enjoy.

Quoted: you call me a liar, but i would suggest you do some research. it might make you look a little less incorrect i'lll even help by linking you to a google search www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Emin+Boztepe+marine&btnG=Google+Search enjoy.

Yes... this proves you right!
It took more than the matrix style punch video clip to prove me wrong, but I gotta give it too you… I now tremble humbly in your presence.
I mean, like WOW... this guy truly is legendary… I mean it!!! DAMN!!!!

Seriously, nobody else really ever thought of oiling up and posing in front of the camera to sell his bullshit, how could I have been so fucking stoopid!!!!











Oh... something I meant to ask earlier. What clan are you a member of in on-line gaming?
Do you tell them how lethal you are to scare them into submission on-line, so they will let you be commander?

Please... I beg of you, please take your Antonio Banderez homo-erotic fantasy somewhere else.

I’ve got an idea, why not show us those battle hardened knuckles of yours… you clay pot masochist you!
C’mon, lets see those ferocious knuckles… don’t be scared… find one of the many women that surely must cow tow in the presence of the mighty cock; any one of them would gladly send us a pic of your mighty fists of fury.

you post pictures and make fun of him and yet you dont comment on the fact that once again, i corrected you because you were wrong. this seems to be a common theme. i prove you wrong, you ignore it and continue to try to insult me. doesn't seem to have worked thus far, but good luck in the future. although, calling me gay sure is a new intellectual high for you.

i'm done with you. you're a waste of time. you dont even discuss things. you dont want facts, you want to be correct. when you aren't, you ignore everything and go to insult mode. i deal with enough of this crap elsewhere, there isn't a reason i should waste time here. this reminds me why i spend most of my time in the ak side of the forums- you leave there and you run into asses.

Quoted: you post pictures and make fun of him and yet you dont comment on the fact that once again, i corrected you because you were wrong. this seems to be a common theme. i prove you wrong, you ignore it and continue to try to insult me. doesn't seem to have worked thus far, but good luck in the future. although, calling me gay sure is a new intellectual high for you. i'm done with you. you're a waste of time. you dont even discuss things. you dont want facts, you want to be correct. when you aren't, you ignore everything and go to insult mode. i deal with enough of this crap elsewhere, there isn't a reason i should waste time here. this reminds me why i spend most of my time in the ak side of the forums- you leave there and you run into asses.

Aww... don't go away mad Cigolon, just go away.
I was really hoping to see those manly, clay-pot hardened knuckles.... *dang*!!!

What exactly (by your own definition) constitutes a man; age, intelligence, life experience, a family, career?

It's funny. The first thing that came to my mind when I read this is "I notice you didn't mention maturity."  Let's add character to that list as well.

Quoted: What exactly (by your own definition) constitutes a man; age, intelligence, life experience, a family, career? It's funny. The first thing that came to my mind when I read this is "I notice you didn't mention maturity."  Let's add character to that list as well.

I am not sure I understand what point you are trying to make here.
You'll have to explain.

I am not sure I understand what point you are trying to make here. You'll have to explain.

I'm not surprised.

Quoted: I'm not surprised.

Sorry, but I dont speak Ninja... so you will have to write proper english.

Let's look at what you wrote:
[It's funny. The first thing that came to my mind when I read this is "I notice you didn't mention maturity." Let's add character to that list as well. ]

Who are you qouting?
And, saying let's add character to that list as well... what do you imply?
Are you saying I should have asked KungFu man if character kept someone from being a kid.

Go away... please... you didn't come here to make a point.

Sorry, but I dont speak Ninja... so you will have to write proper english. Let's look at what you wrote: [It's funny. The first thing that came to my mind when I read this is "I notice you didn't mention maturity." Let's add character to that list as well. ] Who are you qouting? And, saying let's add character to that list as well... what do you imply? Are you saying I should have asked KungFu man if character kept someone from being a kid.

Give it a couple years sonny, maybe you'll figure it out.

Hey... troll-boy, don’t come in here, lecturing that I lack character because you don’t like others catching on to your multi-level-marketing warrior mindset.
You are probably cigolons gay lover, in an attempt to insult me in 2 different threads.

If you’ve got something to say about the bullshit you guys call ‘training’ say it.
Otherwise… go away; go back to taking your ballet classes.

Troll!

..lecturing that I lack character ..

Wow, look at that. Were you able to figure that out by yourself or did you mommy help?? Now just ask her about why I used quotes earlier.

because you don’t like others catching on to your multi-level-marketing warrior mindset.

I haven't made a single statement on what my mindset is. You're ASS- U-ming.

..in an attempt to insult me ..

Considering your childish responses, I'd say I was pretty successful. You're as predictable as tomorrow's sunrise.

..you guys call ‘training’ ..

You don't even know one thing about me. For all you know, I might me proficient in Jiu Jutstu. Again you're ASS-U-ming again.

And for someone that has resorted to name calling, insults, put downs, and foul languange, you throw the 'troll' lable around pretty carelessly.

Now why don't you go back to your 'wife' before all the air escapes.

ding ding ding, ding... troll alert, troll alert... ding ding ding, ding!!!
MODS!!!

Get the conversation on topic, or get out of here… oh, and how's the sexforums going for you?
I assume you know so much about my inflatable wife from posting there?

Oh, can you send us a picture of your knuckles?
We would all love to see them!!!

Guys, remember me telling you about these kids, this one was born not long before I owned my first business...  Go play with your phones... looser.
Get on your gay little scooter, and ride far far away... oh, and take your star wars characters with you.

Damn entertaining thread!
I say we pass the hat,and get these guys together for a match.I'm sure we'll ALL learn something.

ding ding ding, ding... troll alert, troll alert... ding ding ding, ding!!! MODS!!! Get the conversation on topic, or get out of here… oh, and how's the sexforums going for you? I assume you know so much about my inflatable wife from posting there? Oh, can you send us a picture of your knuckles? We would all love to see them!!! Guys, remember me telling you about these kids, this one was born not long before I owned my first business... Go play with your phones... looser. Get on your gay little scooter, and ride far far away... oh, and take your star wars characters with you.

This has been a hoot. Manipulating you has been pathetically easy. You call me a troll, and all I've done is get you to reveal your level of maturity and lack of character. You've used just about every name in the book against anybody that has disagreed with you in this thread. And you still cry 'Troll'.

Any attempt to get this thread on track is wasted on you since you've haven't got a clue of what a martial artist really is. But then, loud mouths rarely do.

It's time to let you go as I see your is mommy coming to put you down for your nap because....

Yes, I agree... you are truly a master of manipulation, did you learn that in Kung Fu, or Ninjitsu?
In fact, you are so good; I didn’t even realize I have been manipulated.

At which part of this PERSONAL attack on me, did you ever make a point regarding the subject at hand?
What do you study?
What have you contributed to this thread?

I have remained steadfast in my goal, and that has been to point out that most ‘martial arts’ are complete and total bullshit.. Usually the result of multi-level-marketing scams, where someone could buy a belt and convince others they were too lethal to prove anything by fighting. Like Segal brainwashing a Sony pictures movie exec in the early 80’s.

But… not to actually get this back on subject or anything, what I really want to know is; how high is your Midichlorian count?
Really… we all want to know... C’mon, please let us all know the ways of the force you masterful beast of brutality you!!!

Quoted: OMG... JUST WHEN I THOUGHT IT COULDN'T GET ANY FUNNIER, HERE IS THE SCHOOL... JUST A FEW MILES DOWN THE ROAD FROM ME AS I SPEAK... I'M GOING TO TRAIN!!! BWAAAA HAAA HAA HAAA!!! www.austinwt.com/multimedia/awt_wsd_high.wmv

Damn, I am glad these girls dont know Jiu-Jitsu, I would not want any of them mounting me. If you are going to put a bunch of women on a video at least make most of them good looking.

In fact, you are so good; I didn’t even realize I have been manipulated.

If you had realized it, it wouldn't be manipulation now would it?

most ‘martial arts’ are complete and total bullshit..

Yes, there are a lot of BS artists out there. That's why most people try several different schools and styles before they find one and stick with it.

Usually the result of multi-level-marketing scams, where someone could buy a belt

Yep, that's a good clue that you need to find a different school.

But to say 'most' and not have any personal experience with 'most' martial arts is presumptuous. [/lesson in adult behavior]Bullying and name calling doesn't help your credibility.[/lesson in adult behavior]

what I really want to know is; how high is your Midichlorian count?

What is that, a reference to your favorite cartoon or something?

What do I study? Ok, I'll tell you. I study a style that incorporates hapkido, small circle jiu jutsu, jiu jutsu ground fighting, combat cane, combat stick and combat knife fighting.

And the best way I've found to handle multiple attackers is to control your position in regards to your attackers, stay off the ground and get away as soon as you can.

And the best way I've found to handle multiple attackers is to control your position in regards to your attackers, stay off the ground and get away as soon as you can.

i tried explaining already that controlling distance and posistion is the way to handle it, he doesn't believe thats possible.

Quoted: And the best way I've found to handle multiple attackers is to control your position in regards to your attackers, stay off the ground and get away as soon as you can. i tried explaining already that controlling distance and posistion is the way to handle it, he doesn't believe thats possible.

Your buddy Gobbeafootlong has never been in a fight w/multiple attackers.
I don’t have time to play his games… you sent a boy to do a man’s job.

I have said it a hundred times, there is no winning a fight against multiple attackers… you, as is he, are completely full of it.
This ‘stay off the ground’ mantra is idiotic at best, fights go to the ground.

Burden of proof is still on you to prove that Kung Fu is good for anything but making movies, which I agree that it reins supreme.
What have you proven?

You can’t even post a picture of your knuckles… which we all desperately want to see!

actually, staying on the ground in a multi person fight is a death wish. thats been said by pubboy. its a quick way to ensure that you get broken. the only way to win is to control mobility, distance, and posistion. that means being up and mobile. my preference in fighting is to remain standing. most fights you have will nto require you to go to the ground, because- most fights are not based on some high level belts going at it.  sorry to break that too you. but hey, if you wnat to believe that being on the ground is a good idea in a fight with multiple people- go ahead. good luck with it. just remember to have someone invite me to the funeral.

Quoted: actually, staying on the ground in a multi person fight is a death wish. thats been said by pubboy. its a quick way to ensure that you get broken. the only way to win is to control mobility, distance, and posistion. that means being up and mobile. my preference in fighting is to remain standing. most fights you have will nto require you to go to the ground, because- most fights are not based on some high level belts going at it.  sorry to break that too you. but hey, if you wnat to believe that being on the ground is a good idea in a fight with multiple people- go ahead. good luck with it. just remember to have someone invite me to the funeral.

Don’t put words in my mouth Kung Fu man...
Show me where I said it was possible to fight multiple attackers!
My advice has been consistent that running is your ONLY option.

We still want to see pictures of your knuckles... take a magic marker and write ‘Wing Tsun rules’ on a piece of paper placed under your hand so we know it is you.
Burden is on you to PROVE the bullshit you bought into.

I have said it a hundred times, there is no winning a fight against multiple attackers…

Then what is your solution to this kind of a situation?

My advice has been consistent that running is your ONLY option.

And if you aren't in a position to do that? Say one guy in front of you and two guys in front of your wife (a real one, not the one that goes SSsssssssssssssss). Have you ever thought of that shithead?  

This ‘stay off the ground’ mantra is idiotic at best, fights go to the ground.

Every single one of them? Really?

Burden of proof is still on you to prove that Kung Fu is good for anything but making movies

And if I produce proof of someone using Kung Fu to win a fight, then I guess the issue is solved and you admit that you're just one big font of diarrhea. Right?  

If you are curious as to what I have said previously, you can read the posts, going back 7 or 8 pages now. If you don’t, fine... I could care less… really.

Maybe once I am gone you can convince others here that you and your gay lover cigolon can 'scissor kick' to save multiple attackers and win the girls honor… and I don’t care if you post pics of you gobbling yourself, or him, for that matter… it doesn’t prove anything.  My wife, on the other hand, needs to stay out of this.

Oh, and guys… before this looser posts this (the 2 high-school kids going at it)… consider that this is not only NOT Kung Fu, but an lucky wild windmill style punch that the skinny little gangster wanna-be didn’t think about because he didn’t know to keep his hands up. Maybe it was his 1st fight, who knows? Besides, the bigger kid is nearly 6 inches taller, and probably 50 lbs heavier; but it’s still good for a laugh:
www.break.com/articles/kungfufighter.html

Oh, and if cigolon posts pics of his knuckles, somebody IM me… I’m cancelling my subscription, AGAIN.
I simply don’t have time to argue with, yet another, child who has nothing too contribute too this thread.

I can’t continue to discuss this because arguing with an idiot is futile, all that will happen is I will have to sink down to his level and then get beaten by experience.

thats honestly what you think wing tsun is isn't it?

thats funny.

btw,
you never were interested in discussing.
you were interested in arguing.
they are not the same thing and are in fact mutually exclusive to one another.

And if I produce proof of someone using Kung Fu to win a fight, then I guess the issue is solved and you admit that you're just one big font of diarrhea. Right?

you see gooble, he dictates what is a real martial arts. for instance, he had a good laugh at emin who practices and instructs martial arts. he informed me that the FBI using it was nothing because he beats up FBI agents all the time, FBI Hostage rescue team being trained it in is nothing because they are just glorified nerds, he never responded about the german special police or the 4th batallion recon marines being trained in it, but as well, i'm sure he knows its useless and those guys are chair commandos also. he bases his opinions, and i do mean everything, on UFC.

I never saw any comment on how he would handle a multiple situation where he couldn't run away. There just isn't a situation that a double leg take down can't solve I guess. After all, all fights go to the ground. And kung fu never won a fight. And you can't prove it. Except for that video of a guy using kung fu (looks like Shaolin Long Fist ) not only doesn't get hit, but put the guy down hard and it didn't go to the ground.

an lucky wild windmill style punch

Looked like a pretty deliberate defense and a deliberate offense to me. Not to mention effective. But somehow that's not proof of anything?

Finally, I think Thumper has a thing for your hands.

Quoted: I never saw any comment on how he would handle a multiple situation where he couldn't run away. There just isn't a situation that a double leg take down can't solve I guess. After all, all fights go to the ground. And kung fu never won a fight. And you can't prove it. Except for that video of a guy using kung fu (looks like Shaolin Long Fist ) not only doesn't get hit, but put the guy down hard and it didn't go to the ground. an lucky wild windmill style punch Looked like a pretty deliberate defense and a deliberate offense to me. Not to mention effective. But somehow that's not proof of anything? Finally, I think Thumper has a thing for your hands.

Effective, only against an untrained person.  It is clear to see that his opponent had no skill what so ever.  Hardly anything to brag about, but the Gracie video, a few pages back, on the other hand is another story.

By the way Thumper give it up, if you have not change their minds by now you are just burning up your time.  I do love all the videos you post.  Great stuff.

Quoted: Quoted: I never saw any comment on how he would handle a multiple situation where he couldn't run away. There just isn't a situation that a double leg take down can't solve I guess. After all, all fights go to the ground. And kung fu never won a fight. And you can't prove it. Except for that video of a guy using kung fu (looks like Shaolin Long Fist ) not only doesn't get hit, but put the guy down hard and it didn't go to the ground. an lucky wild windmill style punch Looked like a pretty deliberate defense and a deliberate offense to me. Not to mention effective. But somehow that's not proof of anything? Finally, I think Thumper has a thing for your hands. Effective, only against an untrained person.  It is clear to see that his opponent had no skill what so ever.  Hardly anything to brag about, but the Gracie video, a few pages back, on the other hand is another story. By the way Thumper give it up, if you have not change their minds by now you are just burning up your time.  I do love all the videos you post.  Great stuff.

I concede... these guys appeal to stupid, and there allot more stupid people than smart people.

These two guys are gamers, they are both loosers... I dont have anymore time to waste on them.

I concede... these guys appeal APPEAR to BE stupid, and there THERE ARE allot A LOT more stupid people than smart people. These two guys are gamers, they are both loosers LOSERS... I dont have anymore time to waste on them.

Fixed it for you.

I agree with you that there are a lot more stupid people than smart people. You make that abundantly clear with your every post.

Quoted: I concede... these guys appeal APPEAR to BE stupid, and there THERE ARE allot A LOT more stupid people than smart people. These two guys are gamers, they are both loosers LOSERS... I dont have anymore time to waste on them. Fixed it for you. I agree with you that there are a lot more stupid people than smart people. You make that abundantly clear with your every post.

This isn't a grammar forum, however if it makes you feel better I’ll be sure to spell/grammar check before I post.

Having said thus, I would like for you a chance to add something intelligent to the thread, which you likely wont.

You are here to attack me, and defend your gay lover, and you make THAT abundantly clear with YOUR every post.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quoted: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I concede... these guys appeal APPEAR to BE stupid, and there THERE ARE allot A LOT more stupid people than smart people. These two guys are gamers, they are both loosers LOSERS... I dont have anymore time to waste on them. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally Posted By gobbledog Fixed it for you. I agree with you that there are a lot more stupid people than smart people. You make that abundantly clear with your every post. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quoted: This isn't a grammar forum, however if it makes you feel better I’ll be sure to spell/grammar check before I post. Having said thus, I would like for you a chance to add something intelligent to the thread, which you likely wont.

I rest my case.

did thumper actually just say someone else was just here to attack? oh thats rich. lol.

Have fun at my expense cock-sucking liars... I'm home sick w/the bullshititus, running a fever.
The Dr. said it was a result of spending time in forums with little children that like to lie.

The Dr. said it was a result of spending time in forums with little children that like to lie.

Maybe you should spend more time at AR15.com instead of those 'other' forums.

Quoted: Have fun at my expense cock-sucking liars... I'm home sick w/the bullshititus, running a fever. The Dr. said it was a result of spending time in forums with little children that like to lie.

i think this makes my case very clearly about you just insulting people.thanks.

When you lie, you deserve far worse.
I would break you of that habbit if given the chance... looser.

loser

That was my joke, although it was aimed at your gay lover... I guess you are a bigger idiot than he is.
Does this mean you catch?

lol. i'm gay now. man. and because you refuse to admit any eastern martial arts has anything useful in it. thats pretty interesting.its funny to me how extreme you are taking a thread on martial arts- you just pretty violent all when someone disagrees with you. you aren't interested in discussion, you are interested in insulting. makes for good conversation.

I'll thumbwrestle the lot of you!
(Just trying to keep the thread going.It's so rare to have such a high level of reasoned,intellectual,and civil discourse these days.

Study a solid Jeet Kune Do system using Kali knife-fighting and Muay Thai aspects. Keep in mind that true JKD is merely an overlay for a refined system of fighting, and this will change from instructor to instructor. Jujitzu is great for one on one, but if you fall to the ground and try it in a street-brawl, you will quickly find out that his buddies will have a field day kicking the shit out of your head. Trust me on this one.

Stolen from Bullshido.net

Groundfighting FAQ

Q: Doesn't the presence of broken glass, needles, lava, sharks, etc. on the ground make groundfighting a bad idea even if you're good at it?

A: Striking advocates are quick to point out that you would never want to roll around on the ground where you would get scraped up by the asphalt or broken glass. This is indeed the truth and it is why a person should train in groundfighting.

A groundfighter is going to control the takedown and be on TOP thus using the harsh environment against his attacker. Even if our groundfighter is in a disadvantageous position, he will quickly improve position, whereas the helpless striker would just flail about and remove the skin from his own back.

B: A fight is an unpredictable event and going to the ground is a possibility. You may not have the luxery of keeping the fight standing especially if you do not train in proper takedown defenses. You may also trip, or slip on something, or...the list goes on and on.

Learning groundfighting will give you the ability to continue to defend yourself as well as teach you proper, safe ways to stand back up.

_______________



Q: But couldn't I just gouge the grappler's eyes, or bite him?

The non-grappler will claim to resort to such infallible techniques as eyegouging, biting and / or genital crushing techniques. The reasons why this is bullshido are as follows:

1. How often do these strikers actually train these movements? The answer is usually not very often. Thus, they are a somewhat risky method of countering a grappler, who has practiced the movements they will be using many times before on resisting opponents.

2. Eyegouging, biting and genital mandhandling are of course very uncomfortable for those on the recieving end, but they are not instant fight-enders. Resorting to these techniques suggests a 'last chance' situation, whereby the grappler has you under their control and you are trying a last ditch attempt to escape or injure the grappler. If you do not either gouge the eye right out of the socket and put your thumb in their brain, crush their nuts even through various layers of clothing, or bite a rather large chunk from their body, they will continue to choke you to unconsciousness or break / disable a joint or limb.

3. What you can do to them, they can do to you. In other words. if a grappler can beat you under a specific ruleset, chances are that when those rules are lifted, they can beat you even worse. There is no unwritten law in life that states only kung fu weenies can poke someone in the eye or squeeze some testicles.

Which brings us to the last point,

4. Whatever move you claim to be able to pull out of the bag during 'anti-grappling', chances are a grappler can not only do the same move to you, but can use their skill and experience of fighting in that range to put themselves in a much better position than you to apply the move, and also have the knowledge and experience to defend against it far better than a non-grappler.
For instance, from under mount, trying to gouge your opponent's eyes will give your opponent a great opportunity to armbar you. Whereas the person on top mount can gouge with impunity.

5: So far these tactics have never worked on a skilled grappler. For instance, in the john marsh vs. kung fu guy video on bullshido.net, the kung fu guy trys to gouge Marsh's eyes from underneath side control. Marsh uses the raised arm as an opportunity to apply a keylock and snaps the kung fu guy's shoulder.

__________________________________________________

Q: But don't grapplers have to reach me first?

A: Yes they do. However, the deceptive, quick, and expolosive nature of the shot (takedown) makes this relatively easy allowing you only one solid attack with which you must KO your opponent to avoid grappling. Should you fail, you'll likely end up on the ground or at least entangled witn your opponent.

__________________________________________________

Q: Submissions are just for sport. In real life no one taps out so how can you use grappling in a fight?

A: Submissions are generally not pain based. Many submissions will seriously injure, cripple, or even kill the opponent if actually finished. Chokes and strangles will render them first unconscious and then dead. This is the reason why people tap out.

_________________________________

Q: Couldn't I just hit sidestep the shot?

A: Theorists believe that the shoot is executed from a great distance like a football tackle. This is why most believe that a simple side step, palm strike to the ear, or knee to the face will take down any grappler trying to shoot because they can see it coming. Effective shoots are used from close range and are typically set up via punch combinations or by causing the opponent to break their balance prior to shooting.

_________________________________


Q: Why don't you roll on concrete instead of a mat?

A: For safety reasons. The mat protects the person who is being taken down (IE the person who's been outwrestled). It is NOT because grappling is innefective on concrete. Quite the opposite, in fact.

___________________________________________________________

Q: Where can I see concrete evidence of the unworkability of "anti-grappling" techniques and the neccesity of learning grappling and groundfighting?

A: On the internet, the download sections of Bullshido.net and Subfighter.net have many clips of grappler vs. striker fights.

The Ultimate Fighting championships one through five brought fighters from many different styles, grappling and striking, together in no rules matches. Vale Tudo matches continue in Brazil and sometimes in the USA and Japan.

The gracie jiujitsu in action videotapes show the famous gracie brothers fighting challenge matches against many other styles.
__________________

Q: What about multiple opponents?

A: There is no evidence that striking is any safer than grappling when fighting multiple opponents. Fighting several attackers is a losing proposition for anyone, grappler or striker. It's not impossible but it is very unlikely. People who think they can fight multiple people without getting seriously hurt tend to have watched a few too many kung fu movies.

The best defense in this situation is to run away.

B: The second best defense is to have a weapon (or three).

Grappling and ground-fighting skills are essential in a
multiple opponent scenario with weapons involved. Put
simply put you need grappling/groundfighting skills to
utilize a weapon effectively when escape is not an option.

A weapon is not a magic wand. It often requires time or
multiple successful attacks to remove an attacker from the
fight. In the meantime dog-pack tactics are likely to be
employed against you. A multiple opponent scenario where
escape and evasion is not possible is by definition “close quarters”.
To escape from a clinch, takedown, tackle, or pin requires
personal understanding of how it is executed. It may take
minutes for an attacker who has been stabbed to cease all
resistance, and a bludgeoned opponent may collapse on you or
pass out with a death grip on parts of your anatomy.

No part of a multiple opponent scenario is pleasant to
contemplate.. but whether you can run or must fight, the
grappling and groundfighting skill-sets are essential if you
want to live through a bad situation. Hopefully you won’t have
to use them, but they are critical insurance when things go
pear-shaped.

_____________________

Q:"I wouldn't want to grapple/wrestle with a bigger opponent, I'd rather strike."

A: In the striking range, there is a higher percentage of chance factors that can result in the inferior striker getting in a shot that KO's the other person. This is especially true if you are fighting a big person. A bigger person with little or no training can still throw powerful punches. A good grappler can negate this by taking the bigger person to the ground and minimizing the distance the bigger opponent has to build momentum in striking. Yes, size still matters on the ground, but not as much as standing up. It's more likely that your technical skills on the ground will protect you against a larger opponent than standing up.

_____________________

Question: Grappling styles such as folkstyle, freestyle and Greco roman wrestling are just sports. How is knowing one of those styles going to help in a real fight?
----------------------------------------------
Answer: Yes, the various wrestling styles are sports but consider these following points.

1. Wrestlers perform their techniques between 80% to 100% full speed during every training session. That means that they have drilled their techniques countless thousands of times under real conditions against opponents who are actively training and defending at the same speed they are. These techniques are ingrained into their muscle memory, as are all the possible variations that can arise when changes are introduced.

2. Wrestling practice and competition is always full contact. Wrestlers are used to working in a full contact environment where pain is part of the game. This means they are used to getting slammed, bumped, bruised, twisted and cross-faced etc. Wrestlers have developed the mental and physical toughness required to compete in a very physically demanding sport and this translates well to a real fighting situation.

3. Active participants in any style of wrestling are going to be in phenomenal shape. Wrestlers generally spend a decent portion of their training session getting into shape with a combination of calisthenics (pushups, pull-ups, sit-ups and dips), weights and aerobic/anaerobic exercises (long distance running, wind sprints and bleachers/stairs). In addition to these they spend a lot of time performing anaerobic activities in of all things… wrestling. This translates to roughly 2-3 hours a day at least 4-5 days a week of non-stop physical fitness.

__________________


Question: But doesn't my traditional system already have groundfighting?

Answer: Many traditional systems do have an assortment of techniques which are said to counter basic attacks of groundfighting. However, before even discussing if these techniques work, one must first look at how these techniques are trained. Many of these techniques never get trained in an alive manner, so the student will not know how to apply them in an actual grappling situation. Conversely, the student training in aliveness will have practiced their techniques much more often, and against opponents who have also practiced countering them. In comparison, the student training groundfighting techniques without practice is no better equipped than someone with no "training."

Also, because these techniques never get practiced in an alive manner, counters to things like takedowns and pins can get considerably more surreal and less based in effectiveness, simply because the instructor or student may not understand grappling. Grappling doesn't always follow normal human instinct, and improper training could result in bad techniques that make it even easier for the poorly trained student to be beaten by an experienced grappler. Examples of this include counters to takedowns that involve lifting one of you legs up, which just makes it easier for you to be taken down, or attempting to eye-gouge while mounted which simply opens you up to a number of armbars.

Finally, remember that all systems have different focuses, and therefore different strengths and weaknesses. Just because your Shotokan class has some "grappling" in the syllabus doesn't mean that you're going to get a complete understanding of grappling from them. BJJ classes will briefly touch on some aspects of striking, but that doesn't mean you'll be a competent striker. To understand different ranges of combat, you actually have to train in them, fully, and from someone with a proper understanding of them. BJJ striking isn't going to teach in depth strategies of footwork, defense, and striking power that a good stand-up class wil. The same strategy and understanding of grappling needs to be built by actually training grappling, otherwise you will have no idea what you're doing in this essential range of combat.


________________________-


Q: But in my school/system/class/warrior clan, we train so that we are never taken down. Why should we learn grappling?
A: Professional Boxers train to never get knocked out, but it still happens. Players of almost ANY sport train to not let their opponent win, but it still happens. There are no gaurantees in fighting, and as much time as you spend training to never be taken down, there are people training to take you down. It's important to know how to adapt to all situations, good and bad, and that includes grappling.

Also, there is ample evidence, video and otherwise, of people claiming they cannot be taken down, only to be taken down and submitted minutes later.

_________________________

Q: What about anti-grappling?

A: In addition to the refutations above, the whole idea of "Anti-grappling" is absurd. If I were to claim to be practicing "anti-striking" every time I shot a double leg takedown, you'd laugh, wouldn't you? "Anti-grappling" is just as ridiculous an idea.

An entire range of fighting cannot be dismissed with just a few techniques.

____________

Q: I saw some MMA matches where guys were knocked out. Doesn't this mean grappling doesn't work?

A: Crosstraining in both grappling and striking is neccesary to be succesful in MMA. However, if you don't grapple at all, your chances of success are slim to none. Even fighters who prefer to strike have to train grappling.

_______________

Q: Ok, you convinced me. But it looks scary. I don't wanna get my arm broken by a three hundred pound ex-wrestler!

A: It isn't. The tap-out system allows for a maximum of safety, much more than sparring in striking arts.

________________

Q: It looks gay...

A: What are you, eight?

____________________

Q: What are the major (North American) systems of grappling? What are their major advantages and disadvantages?

A: In order of popularity they are: Folkstyle Wrestling, Freestyle/Greco-Roman Wrestling, Judo, Brazilian Jiu-Jutsu, and Sambo. Minor styles that deserve mention are 'Catch' Wrestling and Shuai Jiao/Sanshou. There are many more styles of mainly ethnic interest, practiced by a few enthusiasts; the question of "Pro Wrestling" and Mexican "Lucha Libre" deserves its own note.

Folkstyle.

The major American form of competitive wrestling, practiced at the high school and collegiate levels throughout the United States. Practiced in a singlet, Folkstyle wrestling allows attacks on the legs and awards points for 'riding time' on the ground as well as escapes. Advantages are that it is widely practiced, and usually free to anyone in high school or college; the athletic requirements are very high, cardiovascular training is a commonplace, and the single and double leg takedowns that are signature to this style are high percentage moves known to be effective counters to striking. Major disadvantage is that no submissions are practiced; that said, several, like the full Nelson neck crank, are known to all wrestlers. Another disadvantage is that, with the lack of gi training, the wrestler will be less prepared to have his clothing grabbed in a fight.

Freestyle/Greco-Roman

These are the international styles of wrestling. Freestyle differs from Folkstyle mostly in detail. Greco-Roman disallows attacks below the waist, and is unsurpassed in 'tie-ups', which can prevent striking from a standup clinch and allow for the spectacular throws that are hallmark of this style. Greco by itself could be disadvantaged by leg attacks, but most Greco wrestlers spend time on Freestyle so this in practice is less of a problem. Neither of these styles has submissions, and neither practices clothing grabs.

Judo

Immensely popular worldwide, Judo is less so in the United States. Judo has the widest variety of takedowns practiced by any form of grappling, many of which do not require the gi. In addition, Judo has a full array of armlocks and chokes, and a ground game that is based on attaining a dominant position and achieving a hold-down from it. Unlike any form of wrestling, guard passing and guard attacks are a part of Judo, although not a large one. Judo's major disadvantages are 1) the lack of training without a gi leaves the Judoka often fantasizing about having a collar to grab, and few dojos train non-gi and 2) the lack of any training for leglocks can be a problem when faced with a good Samboist or BJJ player. In general, there have of recent times been complaints that American Judo has become 'watered down' with sport emphasis; that said, it remains a formidable art, if not as complete as once it was.

Brazilian Jiu-Jutsu

Currently the ruler of the roost in submission grappling, BJJ is an offshoot of Judo with different rules, developed for half a century to be effective in no-holds-barred fighting. Less rich in takedowns, BJJ prefers to shoot in and drag the opponent down into their world, the ground. BJJ is unsurpassed in ground fighting, having made a science out of position, transition and submission. Many BJJ schools train with and without the gi, and many also do NHB training or have a striking curriculum in the same building, making BJJ probably the most well-rounded grappling art. Disadvantages are few: it is more expensive than Judo, typically, and gives less attention to falling safely.

Sambo

Developed out of central Asian traditional wrestling and Judo, Sambo is pretty much 'Judo with leglocks'. Sambo excludes chokes. Most Samboists also compete in Judo or some form of Wrestling if not both. The inelastic coat, shoes, and higher standards for a winning throw all contribute a distinct 'flavor' to Sambo. Found usually where there are large Russian communities.

Catch

Catch Wrestling evolved out of carnival wrestling acts of the 19th centurry. It emphasizes submission from all angles, and never fighting from the back, since a pin was considered a win in Catch. Few authentic practitioners remain, including Gene LeBell and Tony Cecchine.

Shuai-Jiao and Sanshou

These must be included because of the sheer number of permitted takedowns and throws. Each lacks in groundwork completely. Sanshou is particularly well adapted for using grappling against striking techniques, and has several kick-counter throws which every well-rounded fighter should be acquainted with. Shuai-Jiao is mostly taught as stand-up wrestling, although there are schools of 'combat' Shuai-Jiao where striking is incorporated. Groundwork does not exist in this world; seek for it elsewhere.

A note on Pro-Wrestling

Mexico, the US and Japan all have staged wrestling bouts that are a profitable entertainment of great popularity. The training these actors engage in is grueling, and most would handily take apart an untrained tough guy. Although Pro-Wrestlers train to entertain, not kick ass, they still know how to lift a grown man and drop him on his head, so don't discount pro-wrestlers or their enthusiasts, lest a DDT on concrete be the last thing to go through your mind.

____________________ ____________________ ____________________ ___

Q: What is grappling and groundfighting?

A: Grappling is seizing your opponent in order to manipulate their balance, lock their joints, choke them, etc.

Groundfighting is fighting while you are on the ground.

____________________ _____

Q: Why is grappling and groundfighting important to learn?

A: Hundreds of hours of video evidence show that almost all fights eventually end up grappling, and most will eventually go to the ground. Grabbing to escape a flurry is an instinctive reaction.

____________________ ___

Q: This sounds great for young men, but I wouldn't teach this stuff for women's self defense

A: On the contrary, groundfighting training is even more neccesary for women than for men. Almost all rapes occur after the rapist has the victim on the ground (or couch, seat, etc.), on their back (many times when both are already sitting), and olnly the very Naive think that knowing how to poke the eyes and knee the groin is a high percentage defense for that. Brazilian Jiujitsu and a few other groundfighting arts have specialized techniques for fighting off your back (in the exact same position that many rape victims find themselves) which allows the person on bottom to use the "guard" position to reverse their opponent, break their limbs, or choke them unconscious.

Excellent post D. In fact, the effectiveness of BJJ has never been denied. And anybody who wants to take a martial art should consider it.

But is it the whole answer as some may have you believe? I have to say no it isn't. There are many different situations that I can think of where good stand up skills would be of paramount importance. I can also think of situations that a good ground game is necessary. But some people can be so pig headed and myopic that they refuse to consider anything outside of their own limited experiences.

To the Orignial Poster:

There is a lot of good advice in this thread and a lot of bullshit too.

The idea of learning stand up and ground fighting is important. If you want to put in a electric water heater, and do it right from the top down, you want to ask a plumber about the plumbing portion and an electrician about the electrical portion.

Good stand up arts that were listed were boxing, Muay Thai, JKD, and I think somone mentioned San Shou (Chinese Kick Boxing). San Shou is full contact and semi traditional.

If you are looking for a good solid Japanese striking art I would look at Kyokushin Karate or one of it's derivitives. I am a bit biased, I am an Ikkyu in a Kyokushin based system. There is a good site on the web I belive it is called the Austrialian Kyokushin Website. It has a list of American Schools that teach Kyokushin systems. Two major sects of Kyokushin that there are a lot of schools for in the US are Sabaki Karate and World Oyama. The others are smaller groups. They are not a lot and if you find one you need to see if they still do the full contact sparring. A lot of them are getting converted to point sparring B.S, it happened to my school after my Sensei passed.
 
Kyokushin Karate (KK) will fill your need for the traditional, teach solid technique (both open and closed hand striking), and make you hard. OSU

And as for the ground fighting I am now training in Judo and I like it. We do randori every training session and we go with Judo and Ju Jitsu rulse. So sometimes they break it up shortly after hitting the ground and sometimes we get to go on the ground longer. I have only been to a couple of classes so I have not see how much ground work they actually teach. But apparently the Sensei likes to send his Black and Brown belts to BJJ tourneys, so I guess they can hold there own.

I am partial to Japanese arts and Sosai Mas Oyama studied Judo too.

And Judo can hold it's own with BJJ, Just look at how Masahiko Kimura broke Helio Gracies elbow(Just kidding guys, I got a sense from my Judo school there is some tension between the two I see BJJ as a brother to Judo and respect it. But there is nothing wrong with a bit of rivalry)