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Posted: 4/26/2024 9:11:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: BillofRights]
https://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=2721554&tl=Thunderstorm-Generator-Exhaust-Gases-to-Oxygen
So, this thread got me thinking: For Internal Combustion Engines: Why hasn’t anyone invented a way to extract and use wasted heat energy ? Even my chicken brain can think of a couple ways to turn it into electricity. There’s already plenty of hybrids on the road, one could send it to the battery pack. It doesn’t violate physics because that energy is just being thrown away; you’d be simply recapturing it. Your thoughts? (I know turbos sorta do this, but I’m talking about in addition to that) |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 4/26/2024 9:14:22 AM EDT
[#1]
There are ways. For instance some people wrap copper pipe around their sewer pipe to pre-heat water going into their water heater. The problem is that there isn't that much waste heat available.
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Posted: 4/26/2024 9:15:20 AM EDT
[#2]
Something like an MGU-H?
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AL, USA
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Posted: 4/26/2024 9:16:50 AM EDT
[#3]
Between turbos and heater cores, what more do you want?
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Posted: 4/26/2024 9:16:59 AM EDT
[#4]
Like a turbo charger uses waste energy from the exhaust to compress the in coming air of an engine?
That sort of thing? |
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Posted: 4/26/2024 9:17:25 AM EDT
[#5]
There are many ways, the issue is they are not commercially viable. Otherwise it would be revenue stream for some or many persons. |
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Posted: 4/26/2024 9:18:23 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Imzadi: There are ways. For instance some people wrap copper pipe around their sewer pipe to pre-heat water going into their water heater. The problem is that there isn't that much waste heat available. My whole house vent has a heat exchanger where warm stale air is run in one direction through a stack of corrugated plastic sheets and the cold fresh air is run in another robbing heat from the outbound air. |
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Posted: 4/26/2024 9:18:51 AM EDT
[#7]
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TX, USA
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Posted: 4/26/2024 9:20:33 AM EDT
[#8]
If the waste heat energy is high enough, it usually does get captured and used, otherwise the results are marginal at best. Just a general rule of thumb. Like the way rocket engines prewarm fuel using exhaust gases from turbines, etc.
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Posted: 4/26/2024 9:20:37 AM EDT
[#9]
Like combined cycle plants?
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TX, USA
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Posted: 4/26/2024 9:21:04 AM EDT
[#10]
We have lots of ways. Look at turbochargers in cars. Look at cabin heaters in cars. Look at cross-flow heat exchangers in home HVAC.
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FL, USA
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Posted: 4/26/2024 9:21:22 AM EDT
[#11]
You could take something like a stationary generator that is going to run any ways and waste a crap load of energy as heat out the exhaust and cooling radiator. Line up hundreds of thermoelectric generators on the exhaust to convert the heat energy into electricity, as well as use them on the radiator for the same purpose. It would be big and bulky, which is why I think it would only be useful for stationary generators.
Thermoelectric generators are not very efficient, but the waste heat loss to atmosphere is 100% energy loss. Don't forget to call it something cool and catchy, like a "Hailstorm Generator" to suck the low iq rubes into giving you seed money......dot dot dot |
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Posted: 4/26/2024 9:22:16 AM EDT
[#12]
There are limits to how much useful energy you can extract and by what methods. Eventually (rapidly, in most cases) it becomes a matter of diminishing returns.
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Posted: 4/26/2024 9:25:04 AM EDT
[#13]
Originally Posted By BillofRights: https://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=2721554&tl=Thunderstorm-Generator-Exhaust-Gases-to-Oxygen So, this thread got me thinking: Why hasn’t anyone invented a way to extract and use wasted heat energy ? Even my chicken brain can think of a couple ways to turn it into electricity. There’s already plenty of hybrids on the road, one could send it to the battery pack. It doesn’t violate physics because that energy is just being thrown away; you’d be simply recapturing it. Your thoughts? (I know turbos sorta do this, but I’m talking about in addition to that) not an engineer, but there's not enough energy left. say for instance you want to use steam to turn a generator, well, that requires more heat than just enough to boil water. it requires a significant amount of heat to obtain the pressure needed to generate useful amounts of electricity. that energy just doesn't exist in the exhaust, and if it did it would only be there at very high engine loads, which doesn't give you enough time to use the steam generation. re-generative braking on hybrids and electric cars is the best thing to reclaim lost energy that would normally go to heat. |
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Posted: 4/26/2024 9:29:36 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By c7aea15: Like combined cycle plants? Great example  How a Gas Turbine Works | Gas Power Generation | GE Power |
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Posted: 4/26/2024 9:31:24 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By RocketmanOU: There are limits to how much useful energy you can extract and by what methods. Eventually (rapidly, in most cases) it becomes a matter of diminishing returns. Absolutely this. In addition, combustion gasses will start condensing below a certain temperature which leads to a variety of corrosion problems. Think about the liquid that drips from your tail pipe when your car is first started. Now imagine that it never warms up and boils them off. |
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WI, USA
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Posted: 4/26/2024 9:32:07 AM EDT
[#16]
A sterling engine to run an electric generator or something?
Its not that easy or efficient to capture heat energy and convert it to a different usable energy form. |
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Posted: 4/26/2024 9:32:38 AM EDT
[#17]
Originally Posted By BillofRights: https://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=2721554&tl=Thunderstorm-Generator-Exhaust-Gases-to-Oxygen So, this thread got me thinking: Why hasn't anyone invented a way to extract and use wasted heat energy ? Even my chicken brain can think of a couple ways to turn it into electricity. There's already plenty of hybrids on the road, one could send it to the battery pack. It doesn't violate physics because that energy is just being thrown away; you'd be simply recapturing it. Your thoughts? (I know turbos sorta do this, but I'm talking about in addition to that) |
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Posted: 4/26/2024 9:36:25 AM EDT
[#18]
Both hybrids I have owned use regenerative charging.
The waste heat from most machinery is too cheap to recover, and then add energy to feed it back for use. One idea my gut likes is to build refrigerator closets in homes. The idea is to exhaust the waste heat to the outside during warm weather and to the inside during cold weather. There's a problem, however, the temperature difference in warm weather won't always allow heat transfer without adding a fan to force convection. |
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AL, USA
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Posted: 4/26/2024 9:37:33 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AeroE: Both hybrids I have owned use regenerative charging. The waste heat from most machinery is too cheap to recover, and then add energy to feed it back for use. One idea my gut likes is to build refrigerator closets in homes. The idea is to exhaust the waste heat to the outside during warm weather and to the inside during cold weather. There's a problem, however, the temperature difference in warm weather won't always allow heat transfer without adding a fan to force convection. 
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Posted: 4/26/2024 9:38:55 AM EDT
[#20]
Con Edison (NYS gas and electric company) installs "co-gen" systems in a lot of large residental buildings. Its a gas fired generator in the buildings basement. The engine "cooling" system generates domestic hot water for the building.
There are AC Condensors that heat pool water (i.e. heat is moved from home to pool) |
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USA
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Posted: 4/26/2024 9:43:52 AM EDT
[#21]
It works to extract it until the energy you can get is overcome by additional losses elsewhere. Factor in things like additional weight, cost, maintenance and reliability and you end up with a large portion of waste heat and pressure that feels like a lot when you touch it, but isn't significantly useful.
If a man were to look creatively, he might simply recognize that waste heat can be used to warm the garage in cold weather. Or the wife and kids would just randomly open the garage door and leave it up all night. 
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Posted: 4/26/2024 9:48:52 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JimEb: A sterling engine to run an electric generator or something? Its not that easy or efficient to capture heat energy and convert it to a different usable energy form. Small Sterling cycle engines were common in the US in the 1800's. Most were broken up in WW 1 scrap drives. A local threshers group owns one that is set up at their fairground. Fired with wood. It's as cool as a steam engine. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 4/26/2024 9:49:03 AM EDT
[#23]
Originally Posted By BillofRights: https://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=2721554&tl=Thunderstorm-Generator-Exhaust-Gases-to-Oxygen So, this thread got me thinking: Why hasn’t anyone invented a way to extract and use wasted heat energy ? Even my chicken brain can think of a couple ways to turn it into electricity. There’s already plenty of hybrids on the road, one could send it to the battery pack. It doesn’t violate physics because that energy is just being thrown away; you’d be simply recapturing it. Your thoughts? (I know turbos sorta do this, but I’m talking about in addition to that) The problem is that all the ways to do this well carry weight and size penalties that make them impractical for mobile uses. In addition to the turbocharger already mentioned, a turbofan jet engine does this to a degree as well. If you go to large stationary power sources like an electric power plant, you will find all kinds of reheaters, preheaters, and other odds and ends that I've long forgotten about which are used to capture all the waste heat that is practically possible. You still need some heat though to keep the column of exhaust gases moving. |
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Posted: 4/26/2024 9:50:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: AeroE]
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By crownvic96: Just keep a woman that's in menopause around. There will always be fans going regardless. You're welcome. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By crownvic96: Originally Posted By AeroE: Both hybrids I have owned use regenerative charging. The waste heat from most machinery is too cheap to recover, and then add energy to feed it back for use. One idea my gut likes is to build refrigerator closets in homes. The idea is to exhaust the waste heat to the outside during warm weather and to the inside during cold weather. There's a problem, however, the temperature difference in warm weather won't always allow heat transfer without adding a fan to force convection. I'm in that phase well after menopause after decades of quilts piled high. |
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Posted: 4/26/2024 9:56:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Hesperus]
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AeroE: Small Sterling cycle engines were common in the US in the 1800's. Most were broken up in WW 1 scrap drives. A local threshers group owns one that is set up at their fairground. Fired with wood. It's as cool as a steam engine. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AeroE: Originally Posted By JimEb: A sterling engine to run an electric generator or something? Its not that easy or efficient to capture heat energy and convert it to a different usable energy form. Small Sterling cycle engines were common in the US in the 1800's. Most were broken up in WW 1 scrap drives. A local threshers group owns one that is set up at their fairground. Fired with wood. It's as cool as a steam engine. NASA and ORNL have been working on Sterling engine nuclear reactors for space exploration for years now. Last time I looked into it they had prototypes that had proven to be very reliable. That's the kind of tech that humanity is going to need if we are going to settle other world's. Solar panels ain't going to cut the mustard. This is almost a year old. Unsurprisingly the Chinese have gotten in on the game.  Incredible Advances In Nuclear Stirling Engines For Space Exploration |
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Posted: 4/26/2024 10:02:05 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryOriginally Posted By raverill: Originally Posted By c7aea15: Like combined cycle plants? Great example  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcWkEKNvqCAThere is a gas pumping station here that uses heat from the turbine to generate electricity. |
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USA
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Posted: 4/26/2024 10:23:39 AM EDT
[#27]
 Killer Patents & Secret Science Vol. 1 | Free Energy & Anti-Gravity Cover-Ups |
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Posted: 4/26/2024 10:27:20 AM EDT
[#28]
The temperature differentials are too low for thermal-mechanical power generation, and the energy density is to justify the expense/complexity/weight of thermo-electrics, etc.
There are process heat applications that could be found, and some industrial plants will generate both their own electrical power, and split off process heat applications for generative and waste heat. For commercial thermal-power generation, though, colocation of some other industrial plant that could benefit from waste heat systems isn't easy, and it introduces other perils of tying expenses and operations with some other entity that is outside of your scope. In denser, better planned areas, waste heat from commercial power plants is used for building heating in surrounding communities. This is not just a larger initial capital expense to implement, it requires governing that is beyond the capability (and competency) of most municipalities in this country. More successful in Europe. |
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Posted: 4/26/2024 10:29:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 762xIAN]
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By c7aea15: Like combined cycle plants? Shhh.....it's a secret. I want to see where the thread goes first. I'm on shift all weekend, I need some laughs. |
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Posted: 4/26/2024 10:33:38 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Paul: Like a turbo charger uses waste energy from the exhaust to compress the in coming air of an engine? That sort of thing? I literally wrote This in the OP: I know turbos sorta do this, but I’m talking about in addition to that because I knew some wisenheimer was going to reply exactly the way you did. I’ve been here far too long.. IN ADDITION TO |
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Posted: 4/26/2024 10:35:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: BillofRights]
[#31]
My Thanks to everybody who answered.
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Posted: 4/26/2024 10:35:58 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JimEb: A sterling engine to run an electric generator or something? Its not that easy or efficient to capture heat energy and convert it to a different usable energy form. |
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Posted: 4/26/2024 10:42:13 AM EDT
[#33]
Not waste-heat, per se, but now go down the rabbit hole of aircraft MEA concepts: B-787, F-35, etc.
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Posted: 4/26/2024 10:52:37 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AeroE: Both hybrids I have owned use regenerative charging. The waste heat from most machinery is too cheap to recover, and then add energy to feed it back for use. One idea my gut likes is to build refrigerator closets in homes. The idea is to exhaust the waste heat to the outside during warm weather and to the inside during cold weather. There's a problem, however, the temperature difference in warm weather won't always allow heat transfer without adding a fan to force convection. Look at the efforts required to cool hard working engines, coolant radiators, heat exchangers, oil coolers, trans coolers.. its a lot of energy being rejected to the atmosphere. My guess is that it isn't so much that there isn't enough waste energy to make it viable, it's that on things that move and are trying to be efficient the added weight of the systems capturing the waste heat would reduce net efficiency of the entire system making it not viable. |
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Posted: 4/26/2024 10:59:11 AM EDT
[Last Edit: exDefensorMilitas]
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By xd341: There is significant waste heat from IC engines...what's a really good one 35% efficient? The rest is heat and friction. Look at the efforts required to cool hard working engines, coolant radiators, heat exchangers, oil coolers, trans coolers.. its a lot of energy being rejected to the atmosphere. My guess is that it isn't so much that there isn't enough waste energy to make it viable, it's that on things that move and are trying to be efficient the added weight of the systems capturing the waste heat would reduce net efficiency of the entire system making it not viable. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By xd341: Originally Posted By AeroE: Both hybrids I have owned use regenerative charging. The waste heat from most machinery is too cheap to recover, and then add energy to feed it back for use. One idea my gut likes is to build refrigerator closets in homes. The idea is to exhaust the waste heat to the outside during warm weather and to the inside during cold weather. There's a problem, however, the temperature difference in warm weather won't always allow heat transfer without adding a fan to force convection. Look at the efforts required to cool hard working engines, coolant radiators, heat exchangers, oil coolers, trans coolers.. its a lot of energy being rejected to the atmosphere. My guess is that it isn't so much that there isn't enough waste energy to make it viable, it's that on things that move and are trying to be efficient the added weight of the systems capturing the waste heat would reduce net efficiency of the entire system making it not viable. A claimed 50%+ for some of the largest ship engines. Nissan's e-Power engine is 45%+. Both are fixed point operating engines used to generate electricity though, which is really the only way that an ICE can be made more efficient. |
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Posted: 4/26/2024 11:00:45 AM EDT
[Last Edit: xd341]
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By exDefensorMilitas: A claimed 50%+ for some of the largest ship engines. Nissan's e-Power engine is 45%+. Both are fixed point operating engines used to generate electricity though. The biggest ship engines are two stroke too... |
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Posted: 4/26/2024 11:02:15 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By L_JE: Not waste-heat, per se, but now go down the rabbit hole of aircraft MEA concepts: B-787, F-35, etc. Be certain the batteries are in large steel boxes that contain the fire next time. Way back about 1990 we installed 90 kVa generators on a flight test F-15 for the power demands of an ESA radar (preceded AESA!) and the supporting equipment stuffed in. I think the current generators are much larger; I can't find the blueprints quickly to let everyone know. That was a reasonably fun project. |
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Posted: 4/26/2024 11:05:38 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AeroE: Be certain the batteries are in large steel boxes that contain the fire next time. Way back about 1990 we installed 90 kVa generators on a flight test F-15 for the power demands of an ESA radar (preceded AESA!) and the supporting equipment stuffed in. I think the current generators are much larger; I can't find the blueprints quickly to let everyone know. That was a reasonably fun project. |
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Posted: 4/26/2024 11:05:59 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By xd341: There is significant waste heat from IC engines...what's a really good one 35% efficient? The rest is heat and friction. Look at the efforts required to cool hard working engines, coolant radiators, heat exchangers, oil coolers, trans coolers.. its a lot of energy being rejected to the atmosphere. My guess is that it isn't so much that there isn't enough waste energy to make it viable, it's that on things that move and are trying to be efficient the added weight of the systems capturing the waste heat would reduce net efficiency of the entire system making it not viable. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By xd341: Originally Posted By AeroE: Both hybrids I have owned use regenerative charging. The waste heat from most machinery is too cheap to recover, and then add energy to feed it back for use. One idea my gut likes is to build refrigerator closets in homes. The idea is to exhaust the waste heat to the outside during warm weather and to the inside during cold weather. There's a problem, however, the temperature difference in warm weather won't always allow heat transfer without adding a fan to force convection. Look at the efforts required to cool hard working engines, coolant radiators, heat exchangers, oil coolers, trans coolers.. its a lot of energy being rejected to the atmosphere. My guess is that it isn't so much that there isn't enough waste energy to make it viable, it's that on things that move and are trying to be efficient the added weight of the systems capturing the waste heat would reduce net efficiency of the entire system making it not viable. BMW built a "Steamer", and I'm certain I recall a later car that added electric propulsion -  |
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Posted: 4/26/2024 11:13:51 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AeroE: Be certain the batteries are in large steel boxes that contain the fire next time. Way back about 1990 we installed 90 kVa generators on a flight test F-15 for the power demands of an ESA radar (preceded AESA!) and the supporting equipment stuffed in. I think the current generators are much larger; I can't find the blueprints quickly to let everyone know. That was a reasonably fun project. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AeroE: Originally Posted By L_JE: Not waste-heat, per se, but now go down the rabbit hole of aircraft MEA concepts: B-787, F-35, etc. Be certain the batteries are in large steel boxes that contain the fire next time. Way back about 1990 we installed 90 kVa generators on a flight test F-15 for the power demands of an ESA radar (preceded AESA!) and the supporting equipment stuffed in. I think the current generators are much larger; I can't find the blueprints quickly to let everyone know. That was a reasonably fun project. |
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USA
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Posted: 4/26/2024 11:15:59 AM EDT
[#41]
The early VW Beetles had an air jacket around the exaust manifolds to generate hot air to heat the interior and to defrost the windshield. If the manifold cracked or eroded it would leak exaust gasses into the passenger compartment though, I had one like that as a teenager, you had to drive with all the windows down or you would die.
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Posted: 4/26/2024 11:20:42 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 1paintball: The early VW Beetles had an air jacket around the exaust manifolds to generate hot air to heat the interior and to defrost the windshield. If the manifold cracked or eroded it would leak exaust gasses into the passenger compartment though, I had one like that as a teenager, you had to drive with all the windows down or you would die. That’s how it’s done on small recip airplanes. I’m lucky I didn’t kill myself BITD. |
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Posted: 4/26/2024 11:29:08 AM EDT
[#43]
Turbo compound engines extract waste heat for better economy.
 Turbo Compound Piston Engines. Almost magic tech. |
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Posted: 4/26/2024 11:38:40 AM EDT
[#44]
There are ways but they are complicated and become financially unviable for the average consumer.
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Posted: 4/26/2024 12:05:37 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jacon: There are ways but they are complicated and become financially unviable for the average consumer. |
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Posted: 4/26/2024 12:12:14 PM EDT
[#46]
It was tried..They called it a "hot vapor" or adiabatic engine.
Smokey developed a 2.5L (151ci) Iron Duke four-cylinder Fiero engine that met all '80s emissions standards (with a carburetor and no computer), made 250 hp and 250 lb-ft of torque (compared with about 90 hp and 125 lb-ft stock), went 0 to 60 mph in 6.5 seconds (stock was 12 to 13 seconds), and managed to get as high as 51 mpg on the highway running 93-octane pump unleaded premium gas (the stocker got about 35 mpg on 87-octane). The hot-vapor engine did all this running unheard of high temperatures at an extremely lean air/fuel ratio, in seeming violation of accepted internal-combustion-engine physics. Click here for Motor Trend article |
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Posted: 4/26/2024 12:19:13 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By jaqufrost: Yep. Turbo compounds made sense on piston aircraft engines. Unless the specialized turbos can be made much cheaper, they aren't going to make sense on a car. |
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Posted: 4/26/2024 12:23:42 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By xd341: is that the same as compound turbos? Cause they are pretty common in the aftermarket at least on diesels. Not free but not un-doable at scale. |
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Posted: 4/26/2024 12:27:59 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By jaqufrost: No. Turbo compound engines have different fin designs to minimize backpressure. They were normally viscously coupled to the drive shaft so they provided actual power output from the waste heat. They don't compress air and feed the motor like most turbos seen today. |
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Posted: 4/26/2024 1:02:27 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AeroE: Small Sterling cycle engines were common in the US in the 1800's. Most were broken up in WW 1 scrap drives. A local threshers group owns one that is set up at their fairground. Fired with wood. It's as cool as a steam engine. Stirlings are definitely cool but effective ones are difficult to make. They need a large delta T and high internal pressure to get decent specific power. Atmospheric pressure engines generally have to have huge pistons to overcome the power limitations. Their actually much more useful as coolers, and a savvy designer can make heat-powered refrigerators with them with no internal electronics. |
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