I'm not 100% sure where I stand on this.  On one hand it could be a big deterrent and could end a potential conflict.  On the other it could antagonize others into a bigger conflict and make one a target; I don't like open carry for this reason.  I want to be a small target and I really don't want anyone to know if I have a gun or not.  I'd rather it be a surprise if it ever goes down.

In MI one can't brandish in public, defined as "to point, wave about, or display in a threatening manner with the intent to induce fear in another person."  Some states don't have a definition of brandishing so people there may get away with it.  I totally get this law to prevent people from talking shit and trying to be hard, waving guns around at the drop of a hat, but I think there's a time and place where it's probably warranted.

I remember reading a reader submission instance in one of my dad's gun magazines in the 80s, where the writer was being stalked/threatened by a guy at a gas station or something.  He got in his car and the assailant continued to linger nearby.  The writer took his pistol from the glovebox and placed it up on the dash deliberately so the guy saw it.  Once he saw that gun he decided to leave.  

This just happened here and made me think about the subject.  I think the guy got too emotional and shouldn't have done it in this case.  Other cases I think it could be warranted.
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/michigan-cpl-holder-in-hot-water-over-brandishing-incident-in-grocery-store/

I have wanted to do like Ice Cube in this scene at least once, though.

To a certain extent, in Michigan (depending on your county or local DA..).. you really need to have a turn the other cheek attitude. Road raging, throwing middle fingers, getting into yelling matches, etc.. while carrying will be judged harder on you than the other guy. You KNOW there is a gun in the situation.. therefor it falls on you to let it go and move on. De escalate. If you cannot, and are forced into it, and cannot walk away.. then call 911. If you cannot, and it turns violent, then draw. Dont draw unless you are prepared to shoot.

Just my .02

I've heard the reasoning that if you brandish towards a thug doing thug things, he is likely to make a hasty retreat and would never call the cops on you. Whereas, if you do this to a Karen, look out. That's the spectrum, so if I'm about to be robbed, I see brandishing as a good thing, to prevent crime and risk and to actually de-escalate the situation.

Otherwise, know the law in your state and stick with it because you are likely somehow on video is my working assumption.

Thread about this earlier.
https://www.ar15.com/forums/General/MI-man-charged-with-brandish-er-assault-with-a-deadly-weapon-in-Kroger-store/5-2720240/?page=1&anc=108769614#i108769614

I do not think he should have drawn.

Doughboy got smoked

I feel quite the same.


I agree.  


They got Ricky first, and it was probably all Doughboy's fault.

I am arguing against. If you pull it, shoot it. They may have a gun too.

Pulling it it pretty provocative, I agree.  

What about just the lifting up of the shirt or whatever?  Possibly even just reaching back an holding the grip?  Is that enough or too much?

All I know is that when you pull a gun and yell POLICE the typical reaction is they run ….

I have done that but never for posturing. Only because i was in a spot that i thought i would need it in a hurry

..was carrying Israeli style and when he did cock it, it locked back.   Empty mag or a jam.  Shoulda got capped right there.

I think brandishing is a bad idea.   If it’s a Karen antagonizing me, brandishing is only going to make things worse if an LE response occurs.  Better for me to swallow my pride and exit stage left.  

If I’m in danger from a career criminal I’d certainly consider quickly moving my hand to my carry location to try to deter.  If that motion didn’t produce the desired effect then I believe I’d discreetly draw to be ready to take immediate action if necessary.

Only time my gun comes out is if i decided i need to defend myself and i am shooting it.I dont want others to see and plan now knowing i am armed.

It's a cue a bad actor should pick up on. It's a good middle ground between standing there like a tard, and drawing down on someone who doesn't need it.

We had a thread on this years ago.   Consensus is, you say “Poleeze!  Hands up!”     That way the cops can’t gig you for impersonating a leo.      You’re just a very polite armed citizen.  

I did basically the same move as Ice Cube 24 years ago when my GF's (soon to be and still wife's) ex boyfriend showed up at her apartment moments before I pulled up.

He knocked and she opened the door expecting me.

He was heatedly arguing with her outside.  I was a dumb 24 yo, walked up, did the shirt lift, and told him he should leave.

He left.

Wasn't the last time he showed up yelling and screaming, guy had mental problems.  Next time we were asleep in her next appt when he showed up pounding on the door.  I just called the cops that night and let them deal with him.  He wasn't a problem after that.

I still miss that chrome Bulgarian Makarov.  Some dickhead bandmate stole it from my house a few years later, I only had corroboration he did it years later from someone else and hadn't seen him since he took it.

What if pulling it is enough to stop the threat?  

I would argue that if you wait to draw until you feel like you have to fire, you're too late.  


I could be wrong.  I'm no expert.

I haven’t looked at it in a while, but I am fairly sure that Oklahoma law specifically forbids brandishing, and carries criminal penalties.

I am quite sure my CCW instructor told us, “No brandishing.”  It’s kind of a gray line though.  If you perceive your life is in danger and draw, then the hoodlum runs away, then I don’t think it will be called brandishing.

Brandishing is a threat.  My personal philosophy is I never make threats.  

When it’s time to shoot, shoot.  Don’t talk.

No, you are right. There are several circumstances to pull prior to using deadly force. Three parts to using deadly force. Ability, opportunity & jeopardy. The first 2 are times when you should draw. Wait for jeopardy and you should dive for cover.

I've been forced to brandish a few times, some with a knife, some with a gun, one time it was an OTF knife, then the pistol, then when the psychotic homeless man continued to threaten me and random people in public (uptown Dallas), and continued to come toward me while saying he'd kill me, I splashed my water bottle on his face and he stopped coming toward me. The Microtech Ultratech and Glock 19 did nothing to deter him. I chose to not harm him and de-escalate with a quick splash of water, but I was prepared to defend myself with deadly force.

I've also had another crazy homeless crackhead type try to come after me, even with a flashlight and pistol brandished he kept coming with a knife. I called 911 and started to jog away in retreat, I was with my 100lbs labrador who was viciously barking and growling at him, this was at around 10:30-11pm at night in Downtown Dallas. 911 never came, even when I told them he had a knife and he said he would kill me.

I've also encountered a few situations in California where I had to brandish weapons, and in Mexico once (it was a glass coke bottle and deterred a potential robbery by two thugs when walking across the border in Tijuana MX, at 3am, headed to the dark parking lots on the US side. In San Diego, I've had homeless men try to assault or rob me while walking my dog at night. I was able to deter the assaults by brandishing a knife and standing my ground. Also happened a couple times in LA, near Venice, and once on the beach. Once time I had a G43 and was able to deter three men in hoodies and masks who were following me in a neighborhood in Marina Del Rey while walking my dog.

I've deterred a few gang members with my G19 CCW, one dressed in all blue head to toe when I was working as a surveyor in DFW (Oak Cliff), and (Stop 6/sunrise edition), and once in Birmingham, AL (Bassemer). Those encounters are what prompted me to purchase a IIIA vest.

Around Atlanta, GA there are neighborhoods that developers started to build but stopped after building 5-10% of the houses. These "neighborhoods" are riddled with bullet holes, like every single house is shot up with 100s of bullet holes. The crazy thing is there are some houses that are occupied... and on one occasion the home owner came outside with a pistol to see what the white man was doing walking around their hood...  I also was in some very rural, and very very high crime towns in rural Georgia and Alabama. Where there were several memorials for drive bys killings and tons of dealers and thugs hanging around in packs of 10-30+... Some very bad "white" towns that had very run down and partially abandoned trailer parks deep in the woods. I also encountered a man hunt where police were chasing a murder suspect with K9s and rifles through dense thick woods. I just casually stood by and watched them bound into the tick infested brush and decided it was probably the best idea to finish up that job and move on. I've had to defend myself with Fox Labs pepper spray against a large rottweiler in South Oak Cliff, it literally saved my life. I temporarily lost a Glock 19 in the struggle but was able to come back to the scene and recover it.

When I felt like the area was very dangerous, I was carrying a G19 or G19X, P32, Fox Labs spray, Microtech Dirac, one 19rd 19X mag and two 33rd Glock mags loaded with Speer Gold Dot 124gr +p.. and the second chance IIIA vest with two TQ and quikclot. Otherwise, it was a Glock 19 loaded with Speer GDHP 124gr +P, one 19X mag, Fox Labs spray, Microtech Dirac, and TQ/Quikclot.

Personally, brandishing has worked most of the time, but if the aggressor is determined and mentally ill or in some type of drug or alcohol induced psychosis, they will not be phased by the danger or presence of a lethal weapon. You've got to be prepared to use it, if necessary, but it's wiser to retreat when possible.

I actually got in serious trouble for defending myself with a deadly weapon over 10-years ago. I was 21 on spring break and full of alcohol, I got into a fight with another drunk college kid and after the other kid grabbed a blunt weapon and wacked me on the head I pulled out a Kershaw Blur and he grabbed a steak knife... I was the better knife fighter. Luckily, I hired a good attorney and stayed out of trouble and was able to avoid any convictions or serious jail time. My first mistake was binge drinking and carrying a weapon, and my second mistake was leaving the scene. My saving grace was my commitment to change my life. I stopped drinking and I've become a follower of Christ.

Please remember crackheads and violent assholes are still God's children. We should do our best to be graceful, gentle, and kind. We should also use whatever level of force is necessary to protect ourselves, our property, loved ones, and neighbors.

Bad

brandishing relies on the assumption the assailant will be intimidated / change course after he sees your firearm

MANY are not

One could argue that simply moving (or removing) a covering garment to reveal that you have a handgun on your person is lawfully switching your carry-method from concealed to OPEN carry, at least in a jurisdiction where either method is lawful.

Technically, “brandishing” is drawing the gun out and pointing or waving it around with the apparent intent to threaten deadly force, with or without accompanying verbal threats.

Once upon a time, I was being accosted by a very upset gentleman at a gas station somewhere west of Baton Rouge. He became quite irate after I declined his offer to purchase some music CDs he still had in inventory.  I went from a potential customer to a racist MF’er in the blink of an eye.

His attitude changed quite rapidly when I reached for the gas cap I had placed on the roof of the SUV I was refilling at the time. While I cannot confirm this, I suspect that my IWB G30 was momentarily, and of course quite accidentally, revealed as I reached for the gas cap.

YMMV, IANAL.

I carry, and as I result of that I've had to let thugs and criminals act like an ass around me without saying anything back. I feel obligated to never escalate anything,  because if I get into it someone is getting shot. It's best to stay away from ANY confrontation when you are armed unless you have no choice.

Anti brandishing laws are dumb. Pointing or showing guns to people who aren't a real threat is dumb, too.

The confusion comes from people who don't know the difference between a wise draw and brandishing to intimidate.

Read John Lott's book: More Guns, Less Crime. "Brandishing" as in pulling a gun when you legitimately feel in peril has saved many lives and prevented much crime.

I have experienced this personally and firmly believe that the asshole intent on attacking me (confirmed that he had a history of it after the fact through a LE friend) saved his own life because I put him at gunpoint as he approached my car with a concealed hand during a road rage incident. Had I kept the pistol low and he reached my car and broken the glass or in some other way provided the instant where I had to shoot, then he would be dead instead of embarrassed and pissed.

Four cops and the DA agreed my actions were justified. (they had to send the report but did not keep my pistol at the scene saying I'd done nothing wrong and the DA would see it that way as well) The allowed that I could press charges for menacing if I wanted to.

I strongly suggest the "Don't pull it unless you know you have to shoot" crowd get some serious Force on Force training to see how flawed this line of thinking is.

This is where the confusion/semantics/nuance shows up.

A bad guy is doing bad things and you believe you likely will have to shoot him, so you draw your gun and point it at him.

He decides he has better things to do than attack you, so you don't shoot.

Did you brandish? Did you simply prepare to use the firearm and in a second it became unnecessary? Should you wait and take the chance to become further behind the curve and possibly be not fast enough on the draw to save your life?

Of course you don't draw with the hope they will stop. You draw believing you are going to have to shoot and if they stop the aggression from the sight of your previously-unknown-to-them capability.... people want to call it brandishing and this is how stupid laws get passed.

The only thing the BG should ever see is the gates of hell and a big guy in a red suit poking them in the ass with a pitchfork while they're still scratching their head and mumbling what did that old man just do to me?

No.
Ability, Opportunity and Jeopardy are not sequential events that are heading towards legal justification. AOJ is a set of simultaneous states that the perpetrator must present in order to justify deadly force.

He must have the Ability to kill or cripple you. Whether by his size, possession of a weapon or force of numbers he must be legitimately able, right now, to do grave bodily injury. A man who tells you, "I'm coming back with a gun and kill you" does not have the ability to do so right now.

At the same time he must have the Opportunity to use deadly force. Meaning that a man standing in the street waving a knife while you're in house behind a locked door is not an imminent threat. He may become one soon, but not yet. The lawful use of deadly Force is an emergency event. The time you have to react is critical. There must be so little time that you're only reasonable action is deadly force.

It is his actions that create Jeopardy. The mere fact of being approached by a stranger in a parking lot, or a man threatening you, or the sight of a gun holstered does not in themselves rise to the level of requiring deadly force.
He must act in such a way that a reasonable person would believe that he is about to commit a violent crime right now. That is what places you in Jeopardy.

The sum of his ability to kill or cripple plus his proximity(in time and space) enabling him to inflict it, plus his actions indicating that he is going to do it right now equals AOJ.

As far as deterring an attack by some level of brandishing it can be tricky in some places. If a sketchy looking dude with his hoody pulled low and his right hand shoved in his pants is beelining towards you at the gas pumps while he repeatedly looks around...some level of brandishing is not only appropriate, but necessary. It needn't involve drawing and pointing your weapon. Merely saying "Stop!" forcefully and lifting your shirt to reveal the butt of your pistol will cause 99% of robbers, beggars and con artists to do a 180 and disappear.
This is one of the serious tactical advantages of a pocket pistol. You can stand around in public with your hand on your gun, without causing any alarm-or sacrificing the total surprise of a counter ambush.

But the main thing that trips people up in all Civil uses of force is resorting to the gun over personal affronts instead of deadly physical threats.
Even liberal DAs rarely blink when a solid citizen is approached in the Walmart's parking lot by a career criminal with a rap sheet as long as a roll of Brawny paper towels who produces a weapon, announces a robbery and gets ventilated.

It's when said solid citizen gets into an argument with another solid citizen over beans in chili and decides to punctuate his point by drawing a pistol that eyebrows start climbing towards hairlines.

An escalating series of arguments and physical altercations between neighbors that leads to one shooting the unarmed other because he was "Trespassing" and the shooter chants "I Was In Fear For My LIfe(heh heh)" starts looking like the actions of an irresponsible man-child that thinks a gun lets him do what he wants.

The bottom line is that the legal and moral defensive use of a pistol isn't resorting to it when you get angry enough, or to "put the fear of God" into some asshole that cut you off in traffic, or to shut some Karen up. You might get away with it, but when The Man comes around...you have fucked around, and now you are going to find out.

Solid take.  The law tries to create (incentivize) black & white behaviors but in nature there is a continuous scale of appropriate and judicious responses.  It’s why rattle snakes have rattles and bears sometimes bluff charge.  

The law often distorts economical self-interest  decisions.  It can have negative unintended consequences (drunk drivers trying to blend in by driving faster than their known reaction time ‘so they don’t get pulled over’ being really common).  

I just assume everyone is armed and that displaying a gun early could give the belligerent a self defense excuse.  Again, that’s likely a legally distorted view.

if you’re inspired by stupid hollywood bullshit, you should stay in your mommy’s basement

I was repeatedly cased and then rapidly moved on by a pair of thugs while unloading a vehicle in a spot boxed in on 3 sides. No escape route. When they saw a pistol at low-ready they suddenly remembered they needed to be somewhere else.

Heck off, anti-brandishing pearl-clutchers.

I may draw and make ready in your hypothetical; but if I am pointing/aiming at a target, then I have already determined they are a deadly threat and/or I am >87% sure I’m going to be shooting.

That’s the only reason the McCloskey’s got into trouble, they were pointing their firearms directly at the unarmed “protestors.”

IMO,  Do NOT bluff with a gun.

They will back down or call your bluff.
If you get called on it, you either back down and the bad guy gives you the bitch treatment, or your ego pulls the trigger, now you are fucked.

Its hard to fist fight someone, when an argument goes bad, with a gun in your hand.

Hesitation and Complacency kills.

When in doubt, whip it out. I'm not giving a maybe dangerous situation a chance to become a definitely dangerous situation.

Watch videos on violent attacks against innocent people that come "Out of no where" and you won't be thinking "Oh my gosh, that victim should have thought about brandishing laws!" No. You'll be thinking, "I would have pulled my gun out waaay before that guy had a chance to stab ME in the face..."

I've "Brandished" several times over the years and lived to tell about it. So did the guys I pointed my pistol at.

If you have a reason to fear for your life then pull it.

If the situation de-escalates, that’s a win.

As long as you can reasonably articulate why you feared, you have a leg to stand on.

Drawing on someone, and then they immediately de-escalate, does not call for pulling the trigger.

Yep.............if you show it its time to use it

Again, wrong.

Shout, show, shove, shoot, shoot.

Shit. Wrong ROE.

Bad, bad, bad.
If you have to pull a firearm, it is time to use it with no in-between.
Now if the other person happens to take off that is even better.
When you carry you ignore everything, up to the threat of deadly force.
That means no chest thumping, flipping people off, or raging.

It's amazing how many people think this, and are wrong.

I agree with all of this.  I

It can cost a person thousands of dollars in lawyer fees and a probation schedule and community service as well.

Jail time too if you want to get cocky with the system.

If you have to use it then use it. If not then don't.

Vote: Bad

Don't do it.

*However, in a lawless situation as a matter of defense, you may do as you feel is appropriate and justified as the situation warrants.

For a CCW? I don’t intend to draw it unless I’m planning to fire it. Could something change in 1.5 seconds that make me not shoot? Possible

I’m in the pull to use camp. If, during your draw, the other guy retreats or runs away, the threat has stopped and you can abort the draw.  If he does not retreat, that’s on him.

I say you just gotta use your higher reasoning skills, you know like your IQ is over room temp.

Getting disrespected isn't enough reason to go shoot someone.  If you brandish then the odds you have to use it go way up.  Read the room, obviously there will be cases where it's warranted and many where it isn't.

It seems like a good go to in an ambiguous situation. If the other person doesn’t pick up on it, they’re most likely not a threat. Those kinds of people are more likely to call the cops on you for brandishing, so you’re also saving yourself that trouble.