Oh fuck 😂

Nice socks bro.

No one on the "pro dot" side gives a shit if someone on the "iron sight" side says they don't want to switch over to using a red dot.  The arguments start from the iron sight crowd throwing out absurd claims about red dots or completely false information.

If you want to run iron sights, go for it, no one cares.

This sentence contradicts itself.....if you're "practicing like a mother"....you should have no issues at all picking up the dot.

Oh, that's nice.

You likely just described most CCW's, regardless of irons or dot....people who put in the training with either system will be faster.  

Personally I don't give a shit what aiming device you use.....train with it, then train some more, then push yourself by increasing distance, buy a shot timer so you can actually measure your performance, then train some more.  I think you get where I'm going.

I'm a fan

THIS is the make or break moment. Either the light will go on and they'll get it, realizing that they've been able to do a "good enough" presentation to get 90%+/- of the way to a respectable presentation and correct the last percentage using the feedback of the iron sights being slightly out of alignment, and realize they just need to bear down a little more and they won't be chasing the dot, it'll be where the irons always should have been...

...or they won't, and react like others we've seen in threads like this. Heck, I am doing this with my own brother right now. He was an early adopter of the red dot but like so many others, he was focusing on the dot, not on everything that goes in to a good presentation. He'll get there, but sometimes there is resistance.

Moment of truth, @AIWB. The floor is yours.

I'm a poor.  I only have 2 rds handguns, both 2011s when new ownership took over STI. What made it happen was rds 2011s at around 2k.  I'd been waiting for that.  My close eyesight had been failing since my mid 40s.  I could still Qual expert but that playing card at 25 which used to be no problem was now unobtainable .  Front sight in low light, nope.  I work at night.   Rds handgun , with the work put in, has been a Godsend.  

I understand the resistance from guys that don't see the benefit given their skill level and or happiness where they are marksmanship wise.   Even if it could make you better to one degree or another, its a analysis of cost v. Benefit.
I respect that.

So I had a el-cheapo Ruger 22/45 frame with VQ guys before. It was the one with the grip panels molded in so I’d have to wrap it in tennis racquet tape to keep it from shifting around in my hand.

It was a good to very good gun I played around with occasionally. I got a VQ frame on sale from Optics Planet (I’m still a little shocked it actually shipped) and it changed the dynamics considerably. The whole thing just runs far more stably when you’re going fast. Feels like easy mode now. I really didn’t think it would have that much of an impact.

Going to finally sight this damn thing in today. With damage to my right eye from Optic Nueritis, both front sights and dots are hard to see, but the big ole circle with the chevron seems easy enough to pick up, though I have to turn the brightness up as everything is dimmer in my right eye now.

@Fat_McNasty

What is that sight?

If you want a red dot on a pistol it’s because you don’t know how to shoot and you’re recoil sensitive.

Buying a Walther PDP Pro and Steiner MPS and heading to the range was my first time ever using a red dot on a pistol. I picked up on the dot very easily but I think a lot of that is credit to Walther's PDP design philosophy towards using a red dot. I firmly believe red dots (or holographic) sights are the future. In another 20-30 years I'm guessing infrared/FLIR/etc screens will be the next step up once the technology can be shrunk down and made affordable.

Since the Ayatollah of Cola has made it so,  my pics for consideration.  His and hers.  Hers is later production and nicer than mine.

Pretty stupid comment.....here's the other side of that coin.

If you don't want a red dot on your pistol, it's because your presentation sucks and you don't want to train.

ETA: I was directed to the joke.....lol

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I’m pretty sure it’s a reference to this beauty of a thread which went exactly as expected. Lol

Fact: RDS's are like a cheat code for learning fundamentals. Every actual shot is like running a dime test (place dime on front sight and pull trigger without the dime falling off).

After a short and quick learning curve with the RDS and perfecting presentations, shooting with irons also becomes noticably better.

Practicing imperfect presentations from alternate shooting positions is a must as one will not always be standing or be able to present as they would on a square range is a necessity for real world use.

Literally everything you practice with an RDS makes shooting irons easier/better.

RDS's make great teaching tools for new shooters.

Continual practice with irons remains a necessity "just in case" just as one would on a rifle should an RDS go down.

I know of a very large OGA that is transitioning to aimpoint ACROs agency wide. For a reason.  

On a personal note, i love my RDS's, but i see the need to retain iron sight skills and therefore shoot both often. Shooting skill is perishable and therefore one needs to "pay the bills" to maintain.  That being said, it's easier to pay those bills with an RDS than irons due to the instant feedback in both live and dry fire.

All of THAT being said, i'd rather gunfight a person who isn't completely competent with an RDS than a person who is completely competent with irons.

Regardless of sighting systems used, training, tactics, and skill are where the rubber meets the road.  You can't buy skill, only tools that either enhance or detract from your skill based on how much you train or don't.

I bear no ill towards the iron sight only crowd. Just understand that if you are competent with an RDS you'll probably be more competent with irons, so even if you choose not to use an RDS on a work or carry gun, it will not hurt you to become competent and practice with an RDS.

Like Musashi advocated, learn all you can from as many disciplines as you can then retain that which is value added and discard that which is not.  Ignoring the march of technology only hurts you in the long run, and if shit gets bad and you get in a gunfight, you'll only have the rest of your life to regret not learning a new skill that may have helped you in the long run simply based on personal bias.

Keep an open mind, but not so open that your brains slide outta your ass.

DOES NOT COMPUTE

Musashi.  I lent my book of five rings to my late partner.  Never got it back, blood clot took him young.  Now I'm sad.

Priorities man.  My handgun is my primary 90% of the time.  I never really know what I'm walking into in the hood on patrol.   I think of it as insurance.  I owe it to my wife to come home if I can and any piece of gear and Training that advances that is worth not going on a cruise, or other expensive vacation or pool, or fancy whatever.

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Maximum LOL.....captain butthurt never fails to deliver.

YOU ARE JUST HERE TO SPREAD LIES ABOUT .308!

GOOD DAY, SIR!!!!!

Speaking of false narratives.....

Haha, wow.

Everyone can use more training. Of course training, coaching, and practice are not the same thing.

Absolutely.

Will do.

I like the holosun sight. I turned off the outside ring last month but should try it with just the ring a few times. For defensive carry. I keep it all on.

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Same goes the other way around. Speed and accuracy is the most touted reasons given yet you need a shot timer to measure speed increases because they are measured in fractions of a second for anyone proficient with irons. Accuracy is better but negligible at the same self defense distances.

With that said, for shooting at longer distances at smaller targets a dot wins every time. If I were to carry a duty sized pistol for shooting small and long, I would absolutely run one.

But on a subcompact or a pocket pistol, I will not. I’m accurate enough to place all my shots in a fist sized circle at those self defense distances which is the only distance I’m concerned about with the sacrifices I chose to make due to comfort and my attire. The same sacrifices you made and the reason why you don’t carry a PDW.

You’ll make your straw man excuses about mediocrity like you always do while hypocritically ignoring the sacrifices you chose to make choosing to carry what you carry and destroy the thread due to ego and an obsessive compulsion to get everyone to agree with your choices like you always do.

What are self defense distances?

I know we all love the thought of dumping round and mags fighting our way to our primary rifle, but if we’re being honest your CCW will be the primary weapon for 99% of people.

I love these threads!

Better performance is better performance.

I’ll take better performance whenever I can. Will it make a difference when/if needed? Maybe… maybe not. But I’ll take everything I can.

In terms of needing a shot timer to determine the difference? That’s not terribly surprising in that people are generally awful at judging time, particularly when it comes to technical shooting. For example, the perception of a clunky and inefficient 2 second draw and presentation to first shot may be that it’s incredibly fast while a perfect 0.85 second time feels as though it’s slow.

Why is that?

Because you’re busy. Because you’re burning your limited mental bandwidth on inefficiency.

That’s why timers are important. If that process drops from 1.5 seconds to 1 second flat, yeah… that’s only a half second, but you’ve also cut a drill time by 33%.

Start cutting similar drills by that amount and you’re making serious headway.

It’s not about agreeing or disagreeing it’s about recognizing objective facts. If people choose not to improve their skill set it doesn’t really matter to me… in fact they’re in good company because the vast majority of people who carry do so with the attitude that it’s some kind of talisman. They put on a gun every day with very little self actualization of their own strengths and weaknesses. That’s fine and all, but those people are largely kidding themselves as to their real world performance capabilities.

I just mounted this baby.  I think I'm twice as tactical as I was 15 minutes ago.

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All good and 100% agree. Just had to laugh.

Everyone likes to think that logic and facts and physics drive their choices…but then emotions get the best of them.

This is clearly related to the world wide drop in testosterone levels.

Maybe all these threads are just low T threads.

Should we have a low T forum?

Exactly. There will be no more excuses for “Why didn’t they just shoot ‘em in the leg”. In all seriousness you’re correct and several LEA’s in my area have been running RDS for years now.

you're in it sister.

LMAO

What sacrifices are made by carrying a gun with a red dot?

Those “fractions of a second” will determine who wins in a defensive shooting.