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Posted: 12/15/2023 10:41:01 AM EDT
[Last Edit: -OdieGreen-]
Just a heads up. Last run was in 2019 and 9mm only. These are 7008 which is more coyote in color. They’re listed as Tacticals due to a distributor goof but they’re standards. That said, they’re cheaper than the black ones from most sources.

Here are the correct UPC’s compliments of HKPro.

Full size (not Tactical) "CALIFORNIA"
MPN : 81000355 | UPC : 642230259287 Two 10 round magazines
MSRP $979 and market prices about $100-120 less.

Full size (not Tactical) "REGULAR"
MPN : 81000353 | UPC : 642230259737 Two 15 round magazines
MSRP $979 and market prices about $100-120 less.

Full size (not Tactical) "LE"
MPN : 81000354 | UPC : 642230259744 Three 15 round magazines + TruDot fixed night sights
MSRP $1079 but market prices as low as $965

Here is the color compared to a B5 SOPMOD in Coyote.
Attachment Attached File
Link Posted: 12/15/2023 12:00:26 PM EDT
[#1]
Adding to this, Lipseys supposedly has a run of FDE Tacticals, Experts, and Elites coming in at some point - no confirmation on the actual shade of FDE yet:

USP45 Expert V1 with two 12-round magazines and adjustable sights MPN: 81000912 | UPC: 642230267008 MSRP: $1,309 No jet funnel
USP45 Elite V1 with two 12-round magazines and adjustable sights MPN: 81000914 | UPC: 642230267015 MSRP: $1,309 No jet funnel
USP45 Tactical V1 with two 12-round magazines and adjustable sights MPN: 81000911 | UPC: 642230266995 MSRP: $1,609

HK also brought in another batch of FDE Mark 23s for the first time in almost 30 years, and they've been starting to show up at dealers in the $2500 range (UPC: 642230267343).
Link Posted: 12/15/2023 12:33:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: -OdieGreen-] [#2]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By johnhd:
Adding to this, Lipseys supposedly has a run of FDE Tacticals, Experts, and Elites coming in at some point - no confirmation on the actual shade of FDE yet:

USP45 Expert V1 with two 12-round magazines and adjustable sights MPN: 81000912 | UPC: 642230267008 MSRP: $1,309 No jet funnel
USP45 Elite V1 with two 12-round magazines and adjustable sights MPN: 81000914 | UPC: 642230267015 MSRP: $1,309 No jet funnel
USP45 Tactical V1 with two 12-round magazines and adjustable sights MPN: 81000911 | UPC: 642230266995 MSRP: $1,609

HK also brought in another batch of FDE Mark 23s for the first time in almost 30 years, and they've been starting to show up at dealers in the $2500 range (UPC: 642230267343).
View Quote

Dang it. I’m going to be adding a threaded barrel and match trigger to my standard when I get it in.

Oh well. Would prefer 9mm anyway.
Link Posted: 12/16/2023 4:05:41 PM EDT
[#3]
Originally Posted By -OdieGreen-:
Just a heads up. Last run was in 2019 and 9mm only. These are 7008 which is more coyote in color. They’re listed as Tacticals due to a distributor goof but they’re standards. That said, they’re cheaper than the black ones from most sources.

Here are the correct UPC’s compliments of HKPro.

Full size (not Tactical) "CALIFORNIA"
MPN : 81000355 | UPC : 642230259287 Two 10 round magazines
MSRP $979 and market prices about $100-120 less.

Full size (not Tactical) "REGULAR"
MPN : 81000353 | UPC : 642230259737 Two 15 round magazines
MSRP $979 and market prices about $100-120 less.

Full size (not Tactical) "LE"
MPN : 81000354 | UPC : 642230259744 Three 15 round magazines + TruDot fixed night sights
MSRP $1079 but market prices as low as $965

Here is the color compared to a B5 SOPMOD in Coyote.
https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/61399/IMG_3028_jpeg-3060142.JPG
View Quote

Thanks OP for the heads up . Is that the same color that they use on the VP9 ? The Gun Broker pics look lighter in color .
Would like to find the LE version but not at full MSRP .
Link Posted: 12/17/2023 12:01:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: -OdieGreen-] [#4]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By XM21Nick:

Thanks OP for the heads up . Is that the same color that they use on the VP9 ? The Gun Broker pics look lighter in color .
Would like to find the LE version but not at full MSRP .
View Quote

They’re supposed to be RAL7008 like the VP’s but with all the discrepancies in HK’s description on these, I don’t know that I trust that.

ETA: I found one that’s a non stock image and it looks pretty spot on to RAL7008.
Attachment Attached File
Link Posted: 12/17/2023 12:09:50 PM EDT
[#5]
Originally Posted By -OdieGreen-:

Here is the color compared to a B5 SOPMOD in Coyote.
https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/61399/IMG_3028_jpeg-3060142.JPG
View Quote



These come with a brace now????    
Link Posted: 12/17/2023 8:59:33 PM EDT
[#6]
The stock pics on GB look like a lighter shade of FDE . Like what Sig uses .
Link Posted: 12/20/2023 5:14:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: -OdieGreen-] [#7]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By XM21Nick:
The stock pics on GB look like a lighter shade of FDE . Like what Sig uses .
View Quote

Actual pic a couple posts up. The stock photos look like light FDE but they’re the same RAL7008 of the VP9’s and prior FDE USP’s.

The old sand tan USP’s from the mid 2000’s go for a significant chunk of change these days as HK dumped that color entirely.
Link Posted: 12/21/2023 11:55:11 AM EDT
[#8]
Here is a link to my EE ad if you are interested in seeing how the color looks. The picture is next to a window, so it may appear a bit brighter.

Link to my EE ad for USP 9 FDE
Link Posted: 12/21/2023 1:32:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: -OdieGreen-] [#9]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Nintendo64:
Here is a link to my EE ad if you are interested in seeing how the color looks. The picture is next to a window, so it may appear a bit brighter.

Link to my EE ad for USP 9 FDE
View Quote

They look awkward without the markings on the slide but the color looks great. Odd thing for HK to do. I’ll be having mine PVD or Cerakoted though and will probably have them added.
Link Posted: 2/5/2024 5:17:01 PM EDT
[#10]
FYI, the description of the one I bought said 3 mags. Mine came with 2, and the box is even marked two. Not a big deal to me for obvious reasons. Not the case it came in but a factory HK example. (Or should I say H-Kase)

Attachment Attached File
Link Posted: 3/2/2024 11:47:12 AM EDT
[#11]
Kinda want one. Dang.

Would rather have an ODG frame though.
Link Posted: 3/2/2024 5:25:31 PM EDT
[#12]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By NachoDip:
Kinda want one. Dang.

Would rather have an ODG frame though.
View Quote

No dice and the ODG frame models go for stupid money now.

One could RIT Dye the FDE I’d imagine, but that’s risky if it goes south.
Link Posted: 3/7/2024 4:49:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Mars87] [#13]
There will be a run of ODG in 9mm only soon. Standard, tactical, and expert with jet funnel. Check out the big HK forum group buy section.
Link Posted: 3/8/2024 12:26:46 PM EDT
[#14]
I kind of like the "coyote" color better than the green, myself.
Link Posted: 3/13/2024 5:29:07 PM EDT
[#15]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Mars87:
There will be a run of ODG in 9mm only soon. Standard, tactical, and expert with jet funnel. Check out the big HK forum group buy section.
View Quote


@Mars87  Link to group buy please.
Link Posted: 3/13/2024 5:30:39 PM EDT
[#16]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By JKrammes:


@Mars87  Link to group buy please.
View Quote


It’s not a group buy. Just go to RoofTopDefense and sign up on the waitlist.
Link Posted: 3/13/2024 9:29:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: BabaYaga22] [#17]


Finally got my RAL7008 USP 9 today. 3 mags and Night sights! Wasn’t cheap but I love the gun. Feels great in the hand and is easy to point.
Link Posted: 3/15/2024 8:29:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: -OdieGreen-] [#18]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By BabaYaga22:
https://i.imgur.com/tJkDAGe.jpeg

Finally got my RAL7008 USP 9 today. 3 mags and Night sights! Wasn’t cheap but I love the gun. Feels great in the hand and is easy to point.
View Quote

Nice! Still planning on a jet funnel? I’m grabbing as many JF mags as I can before election panic starts.
Link Posted: 3/15/2024 8:39:57 PM EDT
[#19]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By -OdieGreen-:

Nice! Still planning on a jet funnel? I’m grabbing as many JF mags as I can before election panic starts.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By -OdieGreen-:
Originally Posted By BabaYaga22:
https://i.imgur.com/tJkDAGe.jpeg

Finally got my RAL7008 USP 9 today. 3 mags and Night sights! Wasn’t cheap but I love the gun. Feels great in the hand and is easy to point.

Nice! Still planning on a jet funnel? I’m grabbing as many JF mags as I can before election panic starts.


Probably not, putting that money towards a match trigger and more ammo/ regular mags. Shot the gun today and love it, great shooting pistol! I will be carrying this gun concealed for sure.
Link Posted: 5/2/2024 11:27:53 AM EDT
[#20]
Bumping this to keep it from the archives. I will have some spicy updates hopefully in the next few weeks.

Before picture.
Attachment Attached File
Link Posted: 5/2/2024 11:32:14 AM EDT
[#21]
I am not even a big HK guy but would like to have one...these look REALLY good.
Link Posted: 5/2/2024 11:55:43 AM EDT
[#22]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By gotuonpaper:
I am not even a big HK guy but would like to have one...these look REALLY good.
View Quote


I’m 99% sure Grabagun still has them in stock

Quick update on mine: it has 1k rounds through it, as expected no malfunctions. It feeds HSTs just fine too (fired 150 rds of 124 gr HST P9HST1). The trigger has smoothed out greatly and the gun is plenty accurate, one hole groups at 15 yards. I did convert mine to decocker only (V3).

It’s my new EDC, I have a matching holster and mag pouch from JM Custom Kydex, great stuff.

Link Posted: 5/2/2024 6:26:52 PM EDT
[#23]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By BabaYaga22:


I’m 99% sure Grabagun still has them in stock

Quick update on mine: it has 1k rounds through it, as expected no malfunctions. It feeds HSTs just fine too (fired 150 rds of 124 gr HST P9HST1). The trigger has smoothed out greatly and the gun is plenty accurate, one hole groups at 15 yards. I did convert mine to decocker only (V3).

It’s my new EDC, I have a matching holster and mag pouch from JM Custom Kydex, great stuff.

View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By BabaYaga22:
Originally Posted By gotuonpaper:
I am not even a big HK guy but would like to have one...these look REALLY good.


I’m 99% sure Grabagun still has them in stock

Quick update on mine: it has 1k rounds through it, as expected no malfunctions. It feeds HSTs just fine too (fired 150 rds of 124 gr HST P9HST1). The trigger has smoothed out greatly and the gun is plenty accurate, one hole groups at 15 yards. I did convert mine to decocker only (V3).

It’s my new EDC, I have a matching holster and mag pouch from JM Custom Kydex, great stuff.



Grabagun does still have them. Also a crap ton of them still up on Gunbroker.

Really wish HK would do another run of the FDE on the 45 ACP USP.
Link Posted: 5/3/2024 3:48:08 AM EDT
[#24]
Wish they had some Compacts, I'd be tempted.
Link Posted: 5/3/2024 6:24:34 AM EDT
[#25]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Zerlak:
Really wish HK would do another run of the FDE on the 45 ACP USP.
View Quote


Linsey’s has them listed.  Haven’t seen any out yet.

Link Posted: 5/3/2024 9:16:21 AM EDT
[#26]
I picked one up new with night sights and 3 mags for less than $1000 out the door:

Link Posted: 5/3/2024 12:15:26 PM EDT
[#27]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By mbinky:


Linsey’s has them listed.  Haven’t seen any out yet.

https://i.postimg.cc/QxGJ8m56/IMG-8886.jpg
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By mbinky:
Originally Posted By Zerlak:
Really wish HK would do another run of the FDE on the 45 ACP USP.


Linsey’s has them listed.  Haven’t seen any out yet.

https://i.postimg.cc/QxGJ8m56/IMG-8886.jpg


Oh damn, thanks for the link. Hopefully they release them soon then.
Link Posted: 5/3/2024 1:03:18 PM EDT
[#28]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By mbinky:


Linsey’s has them listed.  Haven’t seen any out yet.

https://i.postimg.cc/QxGJ8m56/IMG-8886.jpg
View Quote


There goes another $1200
Link Posted: 5/3/2024 2:42:23 PM EDT
[#29]
Borrowed this photo from the HK forum. All I can say is the RAL and OD go together really really well. Would love to see HK do this in a factory gun. Maybe reversed with the RAL frame and OD slide.

Link Posted: 5/3/2024 4:11:41 PM EDT
[#30]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By NachoDip:
Borrowed this photo from the HK forum. All I can say is the RAL and OD go together really really well. Would love to see HK do this in a factory gun. Maybe reversed with the RAL frame and OD slide.

https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/77421/IMG_4354-3204551.jpg
View Quote

This is a combo that would make me want to gag on paper but looks great in real life.
Link Posted: 5/3/2024 4:25:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: -OdieGreen-] [#31]
Oh, for all you new owners, Rooftop has the Match trigger for $100 and Euro Ootic has the jet funnel for $55. At gunmag warehouse the Gen 1 extended jet funnel mags are only $10 more than the standard 15’s. So if you plan to buy a bunch of mags it makes sense to make the switch right off the bat.

Match trigger for $100.
9mm/40 jet funnel for $55.
Jet funnel 18’s for $50.

I remember when all of that stuff cost 3X what it does now. Crazy.
Link Posted: 5/3/2024 6:24:39 PM EDT
[#32]
I owned a USP for a number of years that I bought in the mid-90s, but I never had a jet funnel. Will the 15 rounders work with a jet funnel? It doesn’t look like it will from the pics I have seen.
Link Posted: 5/3/2024 6:35:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: -OdieGreen-] [#33]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By tawaggs:
I owned a USP for a number of years that I bought in the mid-90s, but I never had a jet funnel. Will the 15 rounders work with a jet funnel? It doesn’t look like it will from the pics I have seen.
View Quote

Correct, you lose the ability to use the 15 round mags.

Removing the jet funnel takes about 45 seconds if that counts for anything.
Link Posted: 5/3/2024 6:39:26 PM EDT
[#34]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By -OdieGreen-:

Correct, you lose the ability to use the 15 round mags.

Removing the jet funnel takes about 45 seconds if that counts for anything.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By -OdieGreen-:
Originally Posted By tawaggs:
I owned a USP for a number of years that I bought in the mid-90s, but I never had a jet funnel. Will the 15 rounders work with a jet funnel? It doesn’t look like it will from the pics I have seen.

Correct, you lose the ability to use the 15 round mags.

Removing the jet funnel takes about 45 seconds if that counts for anything.


Thanks for the info.

Any USP compacts being made in any colors other than black?
Link Posted: 5/3/2024 6:59:06 PM EDT
[#35]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By tawaggs:


Thanks for the info.

Any USP compacts being made in any colors other than black?
View Quote

Not at the moment. But used is possible.
Link Posted: 5/3/2024 7:35:35 PM EDT
[#36]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By NachoDip:

Not at the moment. But used is possible.
View Quote

Prepare to pay a premium that way too.

HK colored frames are a weird market. They always sell cheaper and move slow when new. Then a year or two after they’re discontinued the price and demand goes through the roof. Like expect to pay double.
Link Posted: 5/3/2024 10:05:59 PM EDT
[#37]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By -OdieGreen-:

Prepare to pay a premium that way too.

HK colored frames are a weird market. They always sell cheaper and move slow when new. Then a year or two after they’re discontinued the price and demand goes through the roof. Like expect to pay double.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By -OdieGreen-:
Originally Posted By NachoDip:

Not at the moment. But used is possible.

Prepare to pay a premium that way too.

HK colored frames are a weird market. They always sell cheaper and move slow when new. Then a year or two after they’re discontinued the price and demand goes through the roof. Like expect to pay double.


Yes. I remember them coming out in odg, fde, and gray a number of years ago. Really regret not picking them up then. Especially the gray ones.
Link Posted: 5/3/2024 10:40:32 PM EDT
[#38]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By tawaggs:


Yes. I remember them coming out in odg, fde, and gray a number of years ago. Really regret not picking them up then. Especially the gray ones.
View Quote

They did another run of the grey at one point. ODG and the original tan you’re looking at $2500-$4000 unfired. There’s a consecutive serial number set on HK Pro for $15,000 right now. It’s insanity.

HK will make them in any color you like if you buy 500 in the same configuration though.
Link Posted: 5/4/2024 8:43:05 AM EDT
[#39]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By -OdieGreen-:
Oh, for all you new owners, Rooftop has the Match trigger for $100 and Euro Ootic has the jet funnel for $55. At gunmag warehouse the Gen 1 extended jet funnel mags are only $10 more than the standard 15’s. So if you plan to buy a bunch of mags it makes sense to make the switch right off the bat.

Match trigger for $100.
9mm/40 jet funnel for $55.
Jet funnel 18’s for $50.

I remember when all of that stuff cost 3X what it does now. Crazy.
View Quote


Is the Match trigger kit worth it, and how hard is it to install? I was planning on carrying mine, so I'm not going to stick with the shorter 15 round mags without the jet funnel.
Link Posted: 5/4/2024 9:56:08 AM EDT
[#40]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By -OdieGreen-:

They did another run of the grey at one point. ODG and the original tan you’re looking at $2500-$4000 unfired. There’s a consecutive serial number set on HK Pro for $15,000 right now. It’s insanity.

HK will make them in any color you like if you buy 500 in the same configuration though.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By -OdieGreen-:
Originally Posted By tawaggs:


Yes. I remember them coming out in odg, fde, and gray a number of years ago. Really regret not picking them up then. Especially the gray ones.

They did another run of the grey at one point. ODG and the original tan you’re looking at $2500-$4000 unfired. There’s a consecutive serial number set on HK Pro for $15,000 right now. It’s insanity.

HK will make them in any color you like if you buy 500 in the same configuration though.


Group buy for the combination above?
Link Posted: 5/4/2024 10:54:02 AM EDT
[Last Edit: -OdieGreen-] [#41]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By OSU_Buckeyes:


Is the Match trigger kit worth it, and how hard is it to install? I was planning on carrying mine, so I'm not going to stick with the shorter 15 round mags without the jet funnel.
View Quote

It drops the SA pull from 4.5-5 pounds down to 3-3.5.

I don’t have mine installed yet but have more trigger time on the Match trigger previously than I do on the standard. I would say it’s worth it, but don’t expect it to feel like a high end trigger. I’m also installing the Gray Guns short reset kit, which many say to put on priority even over the Match trigger.

Being a double action, nothing is easy to install when it comes to the fire control parts.
Link Posted: 5/4/2024 10:54:40 AM EDT
[#42]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By BabaYaga22:


Group buy for the combination above?
View Quote

Do you want an ODG USP?
Link Posted: 5/4/2024 9:22:25 PM EDT
[#43]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By NachoDip:

Do you want an ODG USP?
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By NachoDip:
Originally Posted By BabaYaga22:


Group buy for the combination above?

Do you want an ODG USP?


In on that already. Stop talking about it…
Link Posted: 5/4/2024 9:37:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: BabaYaga22] [#44]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By NachoDip:

Do you want an ODG USP?
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By NachoDip:
Originally Posted By BabaYaga22:


Group buy for the combination above?

Do you want an ODG USP?


I’m down
Link Posted: 5/4/2024 10:19:44 PM EDT
[#45]
Lipsey’s is responsible for pretty much all of the color frame USP’s. I can’t imagine it would take them too much convincing to request a run.
Link Posted: 5/4/2024 10:27:17 PM EDT
[#46]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By BabaYaga22:


I’m down
View Quote

Cool. Here you go. Epic deal. Colored HKs are worth more.

Link
Link Posted: 5/4/2024 10:54:22 PM EDT
[#47]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By NachoDip:

Cool. Here you go. Epic deal. Colored HKs are worth more.

Link
View Quote

Attachment Attached File
Link Posted: 5/4/2024 11:22:51 PM EDT
[#48]
So you can have the RAL slide too.

RAL8000
Link Posted: 5/5/2024 3:24:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: -OdieGreen-] [#49]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By NachoDip:
So you can have the RAL slide too.

RAL8000
View Quote

Already having my slide coated in a different color. Similar combo to this and the jet funnel will be coated to match the slide, and the rail adapter and safety will be coated to match the frame. RAL8000 isn’t the same color by the way.

Attachment Attached File


After getting some RAL8000 parts it’s not a color I have any interest in using for anything. Luckily these USP’s are RAL7008.
Link Posted: 5/5/2024 9:56:01 PM EDT
[#50]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By -OdieGreen-:
Oh, for all you new owners, Rooftop has the Match trigger for $100 and Euro Ootic has the jet funnel for $55. At gunmag warehouse the Gen 1 extended jet funnel mags are only $10 more than the standard 15’s. So if you plan to buy a bunch of mags it makes sense to make the switch right off the bat.

Match trigger for $100.
9mm/40 jet funnel for $55.
Jet funnel 18’s for $50.

I remember when all of that stuff cost 3X what it does now. Crazy.
View Quote

Soooo... I went to the match trigger link Friday- 184 in stock.
Really? Credit card almost cut me on the way out... 183
Got my shipping notice today, on a Sunday.. TYVM.
Went back tonight.. still 183 in stock.

How does this place still have 183 of these things, for 2/3 MSRP, when no one else seems to?
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