LOL, way to go Chief!

Is this a take over/improvement of the BM308 or not?  Frick RRA, just answer the question.  And if this is just a take over of the BM 308 rifle line, what are you going to do to make it better than the BM.  

Quoted: Is this a take over/improvement of the BM308 or not?  Frick RRA, just answer the question.  And if this is just a take over of the BM 308 rifle line, what are you going to do to make it better than the BM.

Since you missed the basic progression...

RRA designs LAR-10
Bushmaster buys manufacturing rights
Bushmaster offers it as a BAR-10 with their name on the side
Bushmaster overprices it and has teething pains with heat treating bolts
Bushmaster drops BAR-10 due to low sales AND to concentrate on making XM-15's
RRA re-introduces LAR-10 with their name on it.
Hopefully, heat treating issues are solved.

You also seem to have missed that RRA is making the price lower and will most likely get the heat treating right the first time.
Chrome lined barrels to follow.

There will be improvements in other areas other than heat treating as well.
We are going through the design from front to back, looking at it with new eyes as well as looking at feedback we've received from users and from our own testing.
Steve/RRA

Quoted: There will be improvements in other areas other than heat treating as well.

Patiently awaiting details

I expect this rifle to be a very big seller.

Quoted: I expect this rifle to be a very big seller.

No joke.   Will be at least christmas with back orders and waiting on chrome before I get mine.    

What about offering a gas piston system?

That seems to be all the rage afterall.  I really may not be any more dependable, but ARs are so hard to clean well, I kind of get deturred from shooting them.  

Crawl before walk before run.
We're not even doing a piston system for 223 at this time.
Steve/RRA

Hey, Steve, my "inspection" offer remains open...



Forrest

I have no shortage of offers to test fire/evaluate.
We're going to be firing it here, a lot, before anyone else gets to.  That's going to be a huge portion of our final criteria...and if it isn't ready to go, we aren't going to ship until it is.
Steve/RRA

Quoted: I have no shortage of offers to test fire/evaluate. We're going to be firing it here, a lot, before anyone else gets to.  That's going to be a huge portion of our final criteria...and if it isn't ready to go, we aren't going to ship until it is. Steve/RRA

Sounds like a good plan...

Forrest

Quoted: There will be improvements in other areas other than heat treating as well. We are going through the design from front to back, looking at it with new eyes as well as looking at feedback we've received from users and from our own testing. Steve/RRA

Here's my bit of feedback as a Bushmaster .308 owner:  Change the charging handle catch/latch to something other than the ball-spring-detente approach.  I can foresee the current BM design wearing down the aluminum upper to a point where the handle no longer latches.  Expensive to repair, might even be cheaper to replace the upper.

My 2¢, anyways.

Already in consideration.
Steve/RRA

Sorry to be blunt, but I'm really hoping there will be a way to use a Daniel Defense rail on these.

I can almost see it now. An LAR10 16" mid length with a stainless barrel, a Daniel Defense 14.0, a Vortex flash hider, A Magpul UBR stock, a Magpul MIAD, a Grip Pod VFG, Troy BUIS's, and an IOR Valdada 1.1-4x26 CRT Tactical scope.

tag

What RRA is making a 308 rifle? This is new to me...

Quoted: What RRA is making a 308 rifle? This is new to me...

Just look at their website.

WIZZO

WIZZO I was being sarcastic..I am counting the pennies so I can get one.

That's a lot of pennies...might want to turn in for dollars every now and then.
We already have several vendors lined up for accessories...just have to have certain drawings finalized to give dimensions, thread, etc...
Steve/RRA

I've been watching the RRA and Bushmaster thread for a while now and have to agree that Bushmaster hasn't been that interested in fixing the 308 problems to date and I'm glad to see that RRA are listening.  I didn't even post my problems on the BM section as I thought it was just a waste of time - but I'm sure I can offer a lot of advice to RRA as I have probably put more rounds through my Bushmaster A3 16in than anyone in the world (That's what Bushmaster say anyway).  To date (since late August 2005) I have put almost 70,000 rounds through the Bushy (from a helicopter - feral animal culling) and it has been a hard and frustrating exercise.

I'll start off with the minor problems - On the first day the gas block moved forward 7mm obviously stopping any cycling and the gas key became extremely loose as well, despite the allen (hex) screws being very tight.  Although the screws were tight, the use of Locktite on these screws made it impossible to check the torque.  With the Locktite cleaned off I tightened the screws (without Locktite) on the gas block and gas key and I haven't had to touch them since. By about the third day I noticed the accuracy all over the place and we stopped to check on a fixed target (I use an Eotech 512) and found the gun was shooting all over the place.  On closer inspection I realised that the barrel was moving and somehow the barrel had become loose.  Re-tightening the barrel fixed the accuracy and it has also not been a problem since. Again no Locktite was used. The next day it shot the extractor out of the helicopter when the extractor pin sheared off - also dumping the spring and follower.  A new extractor etc was fitted and it also lasted only a few days before the pin sheared. For the next extractor I had my local gunsmith make me a pin from firing pin steel which was considerably softer than the Bushmaster part. That pin lasted for 4 months before it finally split and I'm now on the second homemade extractor pin.  Recently while I was waiting for the local guy to make me a new pin I broke 3 Bushmaster pins and lost 3 extractors in one week.  While I'm on extractors and ejectors, it is also common for the springs of both these components to break apart inside the bolt and while looking like everything is okay the springs are actually broken into 2 or 3 pieces inside.
The dreaded bolt has also broken the tail off, however due to the time taken to get parts to Australia, I was able to continue using the bolt in this condition until a new one arrived - I just had to spend a lot more time cleaning the firing pin and carrier area.  When the new bolt arrived the extractor pin destructed on the first day threw the extractor out again......
Now for the charging handle - my first charging handle broke during the first week I had the gun and I have lost count of how many charging handles I have gone through - probably 9 to 12 including 3 or 4 steel ones that I had milled here in Australia.  The handles were snapping through the hole for the gas tube or just behind that section.  I feel stupid now for not taking a closer look at the problem but apart from trying numerous things that I won't bore everyone with, I recently made a spring catch to hold the handle in place and I suddenly had a charging handle that lasted more than a week.  To improve on this discovery I drilled the upper receiver where the spring detent is held and threaded in an 8mm HT Steel allen bolt with a detent drilled on the lower side to hold the spring pin from the charging handle.  I've now been using the same charging handle for almost a month now and that is an absolute record. 2 or 3 days is usually the max.
Cycling and magazine problems have also abounded but I have managed to solve most of those particularly the gumming up of the gas system.  By using Mobil 1 oil instead of every (tried) brand of gun oil in the carrier/bolt system I can run a whole day (about 1000-1500 rounds) without any problems in that department.  I know that is stretching the limit but it works fine.  Using other oils the gun would gum up and stop cycling at about 150-200 rounds.
The hammer/trigger mechanism seems to be okay except for the occasional days when the gun wants to run like a machine gun.  At present I have no answer for this one - the mechanism can be spotlessly clean, no sign of wear and some days it will empty a magazine in seconds and other days it works fine all day.
The flash hider has split into 3 from the narrow points at the end (flared out) but I have welded that back together with reasonable success while I await new parts.
Now for the good news, the 16 inch un-chromed barrel after almost 70,000 rounds shoots as good as the day I received the gun.  I only zero at 50 metres because that is the general range of our target animals but each week when I check the rifle, it still does a 10 shot 1 inch group at 50 metres every time without fail.
To sum up – when the Bushmaster works properly – it is beautiful – but even this lengthy bit of writing cannot begin to explain the horrendous days I have had with this gun falling apart and not working.  I only wish I knew earlier that RRA was going to manufacture a revamped version of the Bushy but in the meantime I am awaiting delivery of 2 new AR10’s to see if I have any better luck.

Any possibility of a group purchase?

Rick

Quoted: To date (since late August 2005) I have put almost 70,000 rounds through the Bushy (from a helicopter - feral animal culling) and it has been a hard and frustrating exercise. ...but in the meantime I am awaiting delivery of 2 new AR10’s to see if I have any better luck.

WOW! please post more often!

Quoted: I've been watching the RRA and Bushmaster thread for a while now and have to agree that Bushmaster hasn't been that interested in fixing the 308 problems to date and I'm glad to see that RRA are listening.  I didn't even post my problems on the BM section as I thought it was just a waste of time - but I'm sure I can offer a lot of advice to RRA as I have probably put more rounds through my Bushmaster A3 16in than anyone in the world (That's what Bushmaster say anyway).  To date (since late August 2005) I have put almost 70,000 rounds through the Bushy (from a helicopter - feral animal culling) and it has been a hard and frustrating exercise.

I had a few problems with my BAR-10A2.  It sounds like your rifles get alot of wear and tear.  What is the most reliable rifle you have used for culling animals?  

Quoted: Quoted: To date (since late August 2005) I have put almost 70,000 rounds through the Bushy (from a helicopter - feral animal culling) and it has been a hard and frustrating exercise. ...but in the meantime I am awaiting delivery of 2 new AR10’s to see if I have any better luck. WOW! please post more often!

No shit...

Forrest

Steve,

I see RRA is offering Mid-Length, Standard, and Varmint configurations.
How is the pre-orders looking?
Which one should I order to have a better chance to get it on the first release run?
Any release dates on stripped lowers?  Thanks!

Quoted: I had a few problems with my BAR-10A2.  It sounds like your rifles get alot of wear and tear.  What is the most reliable rifle you have used for culling animals?   hr

Yeah! Sure gets a lot of wear & tear but I spend about 2 hours every night after shooting - cleaning the thing.  I'm not sure what we would call the most reliable.  The M1A is okay but hard on the shooter and same goes for the SLR - these two and the Bushmaster are the only ones I have used.  When the Bushmaster works, it is miles ahead of the SLR and M1A.  Another local shooter had an SLR blow up last year and the pieces went into the helicopter blades and nearly wiped everyone out. I think it had 150,000 rounds through it at that stage.

Ozi,

I want your job.


P.S.
What is an SLR?

Quoted: Ozi, I want your job. P.S. What is an SLR?

Copied from http://freepages.military.rootsweb.com/~bobw/weapons.htm

The standard weapon of the infantry soldier in Vietnam, the SLR (self loading rifle). The L1A1 is the Australian version of the Belgian FN FAL rifle. It entered into service with the Australian Army in 1959. The L1A1 was a reliable, hard-hitting, gas-operated, magazine-fed semi-automatic rifle, with a maximum battle range of 300 metres and a practical rate of fire of 20 rpm. It fired a 7.62mm long round. With a full 20 round magazine it weighed 4.96Kg. We generally carried 150-200 rounds of ammunition.

Nothing definite on the time-line for releases...Once we're up and running, I think we'll have a pretty good streamof product going out.  Complete rifles will be first, then we'll start offering more accessories and substitutions, then sub-components.  Eventually we want to treat it just like our 223 line.
Steve/RRA  

Quoted: The M1A is okay but hard on the shooter and same goes for the SLR - these two and the Bushmaster are the only ones I have used.  When the Bushmaster works, it is miles ahead of the SLR and M1A.

I'm curious how you had your M1A set up. Optics? Metal butt plate? What type of parts breakage did you experience? This is one of my favorite rifles and I have a few rounds down range, but NOTHING like what you do.

The volume of shooting you apparently do under field conditions is staggering.

I'm assuming you liked the Bushmaster's lesser recoil and better optics mounting ability over the M1A?

I'm thinking RR might want to send you a rifle for T&E

Thanks in advance:)

Quoted: The volume of shooting you apparently do under field conditions is staggering.

Yeah, I don't know, it sounds a little embellished to me, if not suspicious.  70,000 rounds in 7 months works out to 500 rounds a day for an 8 hour day (five day week), or about a round a minute.  What the hell kind of feral animal presents itself in those kind of numbers that allows you to keep up that rate of fire on a daily basis for seven months?

Quoted: Yeah, I don't know, it sounds a little embellished to me, if not suspicious.  70,000 rounds in 7 months works out to 500 rounds a day for an 8 hour day (five day week), or about a round a minute.  What the hell kind of feral animal presents itself in those kind of numbers that allows you to keep up that rate of fire on a daily basis for seven months?

Dude, if I had a job that allowed me to shoot feral animals from a helicopter using my weapon of choice.....you bet your behind I'd be having fun doing it.

Wow...missed that one over the weekend.
I can't tell you what any rifle will do with 1000-1500 rounds per day, everyday.
depending on the definition of everyday (work week, all week, etc...) that's 5000 to 10,500 rounds per week.  We're doing everything we can realistically do to improve the final product, but wear and tear is something that is going to occur, particularly at that kind of usage.  I'm passing Oz's comments on to the engineers.......
Steve/RRA

Quoted: I'm curious how you had your M1A set up. Optics? Metal butt plate? What type of parts breakage did you experience? This is one of my favorite rifles and I have a few rounds down range, but NOTHING like what you do. The volume of shooting you apparently do under field conditions is staggering. I'm assuming you liked the Bushmaster's lesser recoil and better optics mounting ability over the M1A? I'm thinking RR might want to send you a rifle for T&E hanks

The M1A's I have used were basically standard with metal butt plates etc and open sights - one had a Tasco red-dot scope.  Only real problems were piston issues (cleaning & wear) and they didn't like the heavier 168gr and 180gr ammo.
You're right about the recoil on the Bushmaster - it is a big plus and yes, I'll happily try out a RRA 308 for T&E.

Quoted: Quoted: The volume of shooting you apparently do under field conditions is staggering. Yeah, I don't know, it sounds a little embellished to me, if not suspicious.  70,000 rounds in 7 months works out to 500 rounds a day for an 8 hour day (five day week), or about a round a minute.  What the hell kind of feral animal presents itself in those kind of numbers that allows you to keep up that rate of fire on a daily basis for seven months?

When I wrote my first post the actual rounds was about 68,500 - today it is 69,800 as we put over 1,300 rounds through the Bushmaster yesterday.  We usually carry about 54 kilograms of ammo per day (2,100 rounds) and generally shoot between 1000 and 1500 round per day as I said in my initial post - 500 rounds a day is a very bad day and extremely costly (eg 8 hours helicopter @ $730 per hour - $5,840 and assuming 3 shots per animal average, (we use overkill to ensure the animal dies quick) that ends up with only 166 animals at a cost of $40+ each - including ammo & shooter - which is totally uneconomical. We use 10-15 magazines and it is not uncommon to use 30-40 rounds per minute with large groups of animals.

I don't have the breakup of figures with me at the moment, but to the end of January 2006 we eliminated 29,000 animals at an average cost of about $7. These consisted of donkeys, horses, pigs and water buffalo - predominantly donkeys.  (I can post the exact numbers later when at the office.)  To give you an idea of the problem, I shoot over an area of 56,000 sq kilometers and the government estimate for feral buffalo culling alone in our area during 2006 is 28,000 animals.  This obviously does not include the estimated 20,000 remaining donkeys, horses, pigs etc.  In Alice Springs and South Australia one recent estimate put feral camel numbers at over 3 million and in Western Australia a few years back - over 76,000 donkeys were culled in just one program.  It is not uncommon for a small cattle station to  have 8-10,000 feral donkeys which increase at 20% per year.

Anyway, do a little research on the internet and you will find it not so "embellished or suspicious".

Quoted: Wow...missed that one over the weekend. I can't tell you what any rifle will do with 1000-1500 rounds per day, everyday. depending on the definition of everyday (work week, all week, etc...) that's 5000 to 10,500 rounds per week.  We're doing everything we can realistically do to improve the final product, but wear and tear is something that is going to occur, particularly at that kind of usage.  I'm passing Oz's comments on to the engineers....... Steve/RRA

When shooting - and we don't shoot every week (shooting is only one part of my job), I normally only shoot only 3 days a week, sometime more, but not very often - it is too exhausting hanging out the side of a helicopter all day.
I understand what you are saying about normal wear and tear for the amount I use the gun, but apart from that, there are some real design/manufacturing flaws which caused daily grief - such as the standard extractor retaining pins failing (most don't last a day) and my bigest problem - the charging handle which until I made the recent modifications - would only last a few days at the most.  A simple steel insert in the upper receiver or a catch would appear fix the charging handle problem and a different type of steel for the extractor pin also seems to fix that problem.
Apart from the above issues, little things like firing pin retaining pins breaking, extractor and ejector springs breaking and extractors chipping would cause a failure of some sort nearly every day and I would always think what a great day it was if the gun lasted all day without something going wrong.
Admitted much of my frustration has resulted from not being able to get parts here and the added delay in getting parts (out of stock) from Bushmaster sometimes, but at the moment I have got gun running pretty good and I know the best ammo to use and all the little tricks to keep it going.  The first problems of the barrel and gas block coming loose probably didn't need to happen either if Loctite wasn't used or if the items had been torqued correctly at the factory.
As I said, great gun with the little problems fixed, but Bushmaster just didn't seem to want to know and couldn't offer any answer to the charging handle and extractor pin problems. Now I know the answers, I would be very happy to have another one and couldn't ask for a more accurate rifle for the work I do.

I can't wait to see how your AR-10s function. At a quick guess, I shoot maybe 5,000 rds a year through my rifle(s)-(note the plural!)-on average, and a somewhat smaller amount through my pistol(s) - and that is more than many shoot by a whole lot.

Getting data like yours is extremely valuable.

Thanks again.

Ozi,

I believe that any receiver service beyond 100,000 rounds is a bonus, not to mention the barrel or bolt life.

the catalogue mentions no accuracy difference between teh std 20 inch and the varmint.....  is that just playing it safe?

OZI, I WANT YOUR JOB!
Exhausting or not it sounds like fun!

 02/04/2007 - Not waiting any more. Purchased the other guy.

Quoted: Ozi, I believe that any receiver service beyond 100,000 rounds is a bonus, not to mention the barrel or bolt life. hr

I agree totally - I'll be putting the Bushmaster out to pasture very soon and hopefully get some RRA parts for it later in the year.  Had word from Armalite today that the export permit for my 2 AR10's has been approved so it shouldn't be too long now before I see how they perform.

Quoted: OZI, I WANT YOUR JOB! Exhausting or not it sounds like fun!

Strange - but everyone says that!  Actually it's not a lot of fun killing that many animals everyday although my pilot and I try to make it a bit light hearted - otherwise we'd go mad.  You really just have to blank your mind to it all and think of the good that we are doing for the environment.  This amount of feral animals absolutely destroys millions of acres of what was once magnificent pristine wilderness, and its with that thought in mind that I'm able to continue. You get a lot of satisfaction from shooting accurately under very difficult conditions (helicopter) and seeing native animals returning to cleared out areas where they once lived and I suppose that is fun in an odd sort of way.

We need to get more US people out here for hunting safaris and that would make my job easier plus give us some extra money for helicopter time??

Hey, Steve...

It sounds like Ozi's experience could be invaluable to you guys...

I'd like the LAR-10 that I have on order to last a few days, too

It sounds like much of your testing has already been done for you if you can find a reasonable way (renumeration wise) to tap it, if you catch my drift...

Although I don't know Ozi and have never even talked to him, I'm sure that some bucks would extract good information.  And I'm sure that the bucks would be well spent...

Or, you could send me a couple of the evaluation LAR-10s, pay my way to Australia, arrange for a temp job with Ozi for me, and I'll do some testing...



Forrest

We're a lready pretty well aware of what has been failing, and in most parts,why they have been failing.  We're not just ending there, however.  We're looking at the entire rifle to see what  we can do to make the entire package better.
Steve/RRA

Quoted: Hey, Steve... It sounds like Ozi's experience could be invaluable to you guys... I'd like the LAR-10 that I have on order to last a few days, too It sounds like much of your testing has already been done for you if you can find a reasonable way (renumeration wise) to tap it, if you catch my drift... Although I don't know Ozi and have never even talked to him, I'm sure that some bucks would extract good information.  And I'm sure that the bucks would be well spent... Or, you could send me a couple of the evaluation LAR-10s, pay my way to Australia, arrange for a temp job with Ozi for me, and I'll do some testing... Forrest

Pay my way and you can count me in as well, and I'll work free for two weeks!

Taking a precision rifle class next week... pick me up in early april :)

Hey, Steve...

I haven't received my ticket to Australia yet.

And the trial LAR-10s haven't shown up either.

Must be that the mail is slow...



Seriously, any updates or other tidbits of info to keep our mouths watering?

Forrest

I'm actually quite interested to see how the AR-10s fair under such hard use.