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Posted: 1/13/2022 7:05:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: AR_Dale]
[#1]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By phdog: Well, there is a pretty big difference. With a F4 it's already registered and transferred. Another end cap is intended for the registered suppressor you legally own. An end cap for an F1 is initially for an unregistered and unmade suppressor. It only gets registered when someone legally files the F1 and is approved. You can order an Omega end cap without having a F4 Stamp. LGS has them on the shelf |
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Posted: 1/13/2022 7:17:44 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By phdog: Well, there is a pretty big difference. With a F4 it's already registered and transferred. Another end cap is intended for the registered suppressor you legally own. An end cap for an F1 is initially for an unregistered and unmade suppressor. It only gets registered when someone legally files the F1 and is approved. By the ATF's own definition, a "silencer part" on its own is a silencer. Someones form 4 means nothing if the end cap by itself is a silencer. Its not like the Omega end cap is only sold to owners of Omega suppressors. Anyone can buy it. But thats apparently ok while other vendors selling parts that require modification to be used for the same purpose is a no go. The ATF has basically made a mess of all of this stuff. Its a complete guessing game for anyone who wants to have any of this stuff and do it legally. Like.. what would the ATF think if a company like DM popped up and sold completed end caps for Omega suppressors? lol who knows... |
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CO, USA
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Posted: 1/13/2022 7:57:10 PM EDT
[#3]
Yeah, I know. I was mainly referring to intent. Anyone could buy a drilled end cap for an F1 but normally their intent is for an F4 in hand.
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KY, USA
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Posted: 1/13/2022 8:27:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Luke_Y]
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By phdog: Well, there is a pretty big difference. With a F4 it's already registered and transferred. Another end cap is intended for the registered suppressor you legally own. An end cap for an F1 is initially for an unregistered and unmade suppressor. It only gets registered when someone legally files the F1 and is approved. No… No. The endcap that ANYONE can buy from the silencer manufacturer, other online shops, or off the shelf at your LGS is NOT a regulated item. It’s not a firearm (neither Title I nor Title II). It is not a “silencer part”. It is not intended as anything. From the retailer and purchasers perspective it’s a “nothing”, a completely unregulated item. My kid can walk into the store and buy me one “intending” for it to be a Christmas ornament. How in the hell a similar item WITHOUT a hole in it could be considered a “silencer part” (Title II firearm) just serves as an example of how badly the administrators at the ATF have totally fucked up the NFA and muddied the waters over and over again for hundreds of thousands of completely law abiding citizens that are doing everything they can to follow the law and engage in completely legal activities. |
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KY, USA
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Posted: 1/13/2022 8:30:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Luke_Y]
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By dskeet: Like.. what would the ATF think if a company like DM popped up and sold completed end caps for Omega suppressors? lol who knows... EXACTLY. It’s ridiculous. |
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Posted: 1/13/2022 8:45:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Idahoskunk]
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Luke_Y: EXACTLY. It’s ridiculous. DM did sell titanium end caps for Omega's as well as titanium direct thread mounts. Pre drilled with the caliber engraved on the end. |
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CO, USA
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Posted: 1/13/2022 9:07:37 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Luke_Y: No… No. The endcap that ANYONE can buy from the silencer manufacturer, other online shops, or off the shelf at your LGS is NOT a regulated item. It’s not a firearm (neither Title I nor Title II). It is not a “silencer part”. It is not intended as anything. From the retailer and purchasers perspective it’s a “nothing”, a completely unregulated item. My kid can walk into the store and buy me one “intending” for it to be a Christmas ornament. How in the hell a similar item WITHOUT a hole in it could be considered a “silencer part” (Title II firearm) just serves as an example of how badly the administrators at the ATF have totally fucked up the NFA and muddied the waters over and over again for hundreds of thousands of completely law abiding citizens that are doing everything they can to follow the law and engage in completely legal activities. Yeah, I know. It doesn't make sense. To my knowledge you can't buy replacement baffles but you can buy end caps. However, I still think intent is a least part of it. The manufacturers clearly intend for their end caps to be used on their cans. What someone actually does is obviously out of their hands. |
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KY, USA
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Posted: 1/13/2022 9:14:51 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By phdog: Snip- The manufacturers clearly intend for their end caps to be used on their cans. What someone actually does is obviously out of their hands. But this letter was sent to the “someones” that bought a cap without a hole in it (or a coffee cup). The manufacturers are still selling caps with holes in them. So, they must’ve not gotten letters..? |
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KY, USA
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Posted: 1/13/2022 9:21:49 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Luke_Y: But this letter was sent to the “someones” that bought a cap without a hole in it (or a coffee cup). The manufacturers are still selling caps with holes in them. So, they must’ve not gotten letters..? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Luke_Y: Originally Posted By phdog: Snip- The manufacturers clearly intend for their end caps to be used on their cans. What someone actually does is obviously out of their hands. But this letter was sent to the “someones” that bought a cap without a hole in it (or a coffee cup). The manufacturers are still selling caps with holes in them. So, they must’ve not gotten letters..? I’m just saying, it seems like your position is that it’s reasonable for the ATF to purpose that it’s legal to possess, sell, and/or transfer end caps with a hole in them (that will fit a silencer), as a completely unregulated item. But, if you bought a threaded piece of metal that DOESN’T have a hole in it, you might be in violation of the law? |
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Posted: 1/13/2022 9:31:42 PM EDT
[#10]
What if someone were to purchase a tax stamp, buy an end cap (predrilled), tube, adapter, spacers and cones (undrilled of course), so they could figure out the spacing in the can that they completely intended to make a suppressor with while they waited for their stamp to be approved?
Would they be in possession of a silencer prior to their stamp being approved? If the answer is yes, it's bullshit because you need to give the ATF an overall length and what if they bust the company you were intending to get the tube from and you have to change your tube length when your stamp gets approved because of the shortages of companies to buy from because they keep shutting them down.  |
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ID, USA
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Posted: 1/13/2022 10:36:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Polarbear31]
[#11]
Well, I got my letter this evening from Fedex.
I ordered a TI tube and undrilled end caps after my Form 1 was approved. WTF? Seems like they are fishing. I did everything legal. Even to avoid "constructive intent" or whatever. There is no reason I would put my firearms ownership in jeopardy. The only reason I ordered them is I wasn't capable at the time to thread TI. Things have changed since then. I learned how to single point thread. Since then, I have gotten my Form 1 materials from Online Metals. |
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Posted: 1/13/2022 11:02:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: dskeet]
[#12]
They must be sending those things out in batches, alphabetically or something. I figured they'd go out all at once, but seems like there are weekly batches or something.
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CO, USA
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Posted: 1/14/2022 12:05:16 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Luke_Y: I’m just saying, it seems like your position is that it’s reasonable for the ATF to purpose that it’s legal to possess, sell, and/or transfer end caps with a hole in them (that will fit a silencer), as a completely unregulated item. But, if you bought a threaded piece of metal that DOESN’T have a hole in it, you might be in violation of the law? No, I don't think it's reasonable at all. I'm not sure what is going on, but I suspect it has something to do with a preference or at least tolerance for F4 manufacturers and wanting to limit or end F1s. I'm not saying I agree with that at all. Only that it might explain it a bit. |
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Posted: 1/14/2022 12:12:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Homeinvader]
[#14]
Not a DM customer, but have been in this situation before. This is a clean-up job guys. While scary and certainly serious, it’s nothing to get too worked up about unless you’ve done something really and clearly illegal with the parts sold to you by DM.
This isn’t the intended, under-the-table sale of contraband, where all parties are in full-understanding of the illegal nature of the transaction. This is the open-air, above-board sale of grayband, something of not-so-clear legality or illegality that would be expensive and time-consuming to litigate with very uncertain outcome and serving no higher judicial purpose. They just want the parts off the street, they’re not coming after you in that alone. They’re just doing their job and likely really don’t have any more guidance that “pick this stuff up”. Sure, you’ll be on a list, but you’re already on that list anyway. We all are. |
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MN, USA
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Posted: 1/14/2022 12:36:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: pool_shark]
[#15]
I can't add much else to this convo since this is about clear as mud and you all have covered it pretty well.
I dont think this has been posted yet... The statute of limitations on violations of the NFA is three years. See 26 U.S.C. sec. 6531. The statute of limitations does not begin to run on possession offenses until the possession stops. As long as you possess the contraband item, you are in danger of being prosecuted. Based on this for those of you sending photos and telling federal agents you are still in possession of said part your only extending your time should they decide later F1s no longer work. The best advise I have heard so far is destroy and get rid of anything DM related. |
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Posted: 1/14/2022 12:44:21 AM EDT
[#16]
I dont think I even ended up using my DM parts, I think I got rid of them and just made my own parts for my form ones, or something....
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Posted: 1/14/2022 12:54:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: dskeet]
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Homeinvader: Not a DM customer, but have been in this situation before. This is a clean-up job guys. While scary and certainly serious, it’s nothing to get too worked up about unless you’ve done something really and clearly illegal with the parts sold to you by DM. This isn’t the intended, under-the-table sale of contraband, where all parties are in full-understanding of the illegal nature of the transaction. This is the open-air, above-board sale of grayband, something of not-so-clear legality or illegality that would be expensive and time-consuming to litigate with very uncertain outcome and serving no higher judicial purpose. They just want the parts off the street, they’re not coming after you in that alone. They’re just doing their job and likely really don’t have any more guidance that “pick this stuff up”. Sure, you’ll be on a list, but you’re already on that list anyway. We all are. That's how it looks to me. It's hard to stay positive because of the constantly posted opinions that represent every extreme imaginable..lol But it seems like the feedback everyone is getting from their lawyers (myself included) is similar and says this isn't really that big of a deal for everyone that got (or will get) the infamous letter and hasn't done something completely stupid. |
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Posted: 1/14/2022 6:28:17 AM EDT
[#18]
I really don't think the ATF is looking to get rid of form 1's, it has to be a good source of revenue for them, why would any fed agency want to cut off a constant money supply?
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Posted: 1/14/2022 7:57:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: dayphotog]
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By dskeet: That's how it looks to me. It's hard to stay positive because of the constantly posted opinions that represent every extreme imaginable..lol But it seems like the feedback everyone is getting from their lawyers (myself included) is similar and says this isn't really that big of a deal for everyone that got (or will get) the infamous letter and hasn't done something completely stupid. Did your lawyer contact the atf or say to wait out as they said the atf was going to cross reference anyway? Wonder why they didn’t cross reference in the first place? |
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Posted: 1/14/2022 8:32:35 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Homeinvader: Not a DM customer, but have been in this situation before. This is a clean-up job guys. While scary and certainly serious, it’s nothing to get too worked up about unless you’ve done something really and clearly illegal with the parts sold to you by DM. This isn’t the intended, under-the-table sale of contraband, where all parties are in full-understanding of the illegal nature of the transaction. This is the open-air, above-board sale of grayband, something of not-so-clear legality or illegality that would be expensive and time-consuming to litigate with very uncertain outcome and serving no higher judicial purpose. They just want the parts off the street, they’re not coming after you in that alone. They’re just doing their job and likely really don’t have any more guidance that “pick this stuff up”. Sure, you’ll be on a list, but you’re already on that list anyway. We all are. Do you have any insight why some people are getting house calls and confiscation, while others are told (for now) don't worry, you are good to go? |
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Posted: 1/14/2022 8:33:30 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By pool_shark: I can't add much else to this convo since this is about clear as mud and you all have covered it pretty well. I dont think this has been posted yet... The statute of limitations on violations of the NFA is three years. See 26 U.S.C. sec. 6531. The statute of limitations does not begin to run on possession offenses until the possession stops. As long as you possess the contraband item, you are in danger of being prosecuted. Based on this for those of you sending photos and telling federal agents you are still in possession of said part your only extending your time should they decide later F1s no longer work. The best advise I have heard so far is destroy and get rid of anything DM related. Damn it this sucks 
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Posted: 1/14/2022 8:40:08 AM EDT
[Last Edit: dskeet]
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By dayphotog: Did your lawyer contact the atf or say to wait out as they said the atf was going to cross reference anyway? Wonder why they didn’t cross reference in the first place? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By dayphotog: Originally Posted By dskeet: That's how it looks to me. It's hard to stay positive because of the constantly posted opinions that represent every extreme imaginable..lol But it seems like the feedback everyone is getting from their lawyers (myself included) is similar and says this isn't really that big of a deal for everyone that got (or will get) the infamous letter and hasn't done something completely stupid. Did your lawyer contact the atf or say to wait out as they said the atf was going to cross reference anyway? Wonder why they didn’t cross reference in the first place? My lawyer contacted the ATF. His strategy was basically "get ahead of it and get it over with." He deals specifically in gun rights cases and deals with the ATF a lot, so I trust his advice. Another guy posted on the form 1 suppressor forum last night. Said he got the flint field office on the phone. He apparently asked why they didn't check for form 1's first and the agent on the phone said it was because most people use trusts so its harder to cross reference. I obviously can't verify that, but it would make sense to me. |
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Posted: 1/14/2022 8:54:31 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Homeinvader: Not a DM customer, but have been in this situation before. This is a clean-up job guys. While scary and certainly serious, it’s nothing to get too worked up about unless you’ve done something really and clearly illegal with the parts sold to you by DM. This isn’t the intended, under-the-table sale of contraband, where all parties are in full-understanding of the illegal nature of the transaction. This is the open-air, above-board sale of grayband, something of not-so-clear legality or illegality that would be expensive and time-consuming to litigate with very uncertain outcome and serving no higher judicial purpose. They just want the parts off the street, they’re not coming after you in that alone. They’re just doing their job and likely really don’t have any more guidance that “pick this stuff up”. Sure, you’ll be on a list, but you’re already on that list anyway. We all are. After talking with someone finally last night, an agent from Detroit, what it seems like is everyone is getting a letter no matter what they bought, if you have a form 1 everything is all good. He said he's been fielding over 300 calls a day and has at least that many to make every day for a while. He called me at 630 here, so they're working late. he said crossreferencing them against the NFA was difficult because so many people are on trusts so they would have to search through piles of paper work. even cracked a joke about how horribly inefficient government was. He said basically when they looked over the list there was a number of prohibited persons on that list, as well as a bunch of parts that left the country. He said they're not really interested in collecting any parts if you have a form1 because there's so many parts out there didn't say how many but it sounded like thousands upon thousands ,but mostly they're trying to weed out prohibited persons. Basically with that many people, they just want to scratch names off the list till they get down to the people ignoring the letter or the prohibited people. |
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Posted: 1/14/2022 9:32:07 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AgeOne: After talking with someone finally last night, an agent from Detroit, what it seems like is everyone is getting a letter no matter what they bought, if you have a form 1 everything is all good. He said he's been fielding over 300 calls a day and has at least that many to make every day for a while. He called me at 630 here, so they're working late. he said crossreferencing them against the NFA was difficult because so many people are on trusts so they would have to search through piles of paper work. even cracked a joke about how horribly inefficient government was. He said basically when they looked over the list there was a number of prohibited persons on that list, as well as a bunch of parts that left the country. He said they're not really interested in collecting any parts if you have a form1 because there's so many parts out there didn't say how many but it sounded like thousands upon thousands ,but mostly they're trying to weed out prohibited persons. Basically with that many people, they just want to scratch names off the list till they get down to the people ignoring the letter or the prohibited people. Their letter is shit. If this was the case, they should have put that in the letter. I don't trust a thing being said right now. We have different answers by different branches. Something else is going on. |
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Posted: 1/14/2022 9:50:53 AM EDT
[#25]
This experience:
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AgeOne: After talking with someone finally last night, an agent from Detroit, what it seems like is everyone is getting a letter no matter what they bought, if you have a form 1 everything is all good. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AgeOne: After talking with someone finally last night, an agent from Detroit, what it seems like is everyone is getting a letter no matter what they bought, if you have a form 1 everything is all good. Does NOT agree with this one: Originally Posted By Timberwulfen: I never got a letter. But today two very stern but nice plain clothes agents came to the door. My heart skipped about 50 beats. They knew what I had bought from dm, when and how much which I confirmed via email later. They stayed out front and talked to me about 20 min where my cams were in full view and they let me go in and get my form 1s. I came back out and they explained the situation which I knew nothing about. But they confirmed: 1. Dimpled endcap was my issue (luckily I only had 1. But they needed all the other items on the receipt). 2. My forms didnt matter in making the endcap legal, but apparently does keep me out of trouble. 3. Had I built the suppressor (silencer) I would have to forgo ownership, and the stamp, and no refund on the stamp! So this is real. This is not second hand. Got the stamps prior to any parts. Have no other reason for them to be coming for me, the local range officer even calls me the stamp collector as it takes a while to match up the paperwork sometimes. Why the disparity? That is what is frustrating and confusing. Some people are getting visits. Others are confiscated. Still others are getting "nah dawg, it's all good". Fuck AFT |
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NC, USA
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Posted: 1/14/2022 10:10:53 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BigPolska: This experience: Does NOT agree with this one: Why the disparity? That is what is frustrating and confusing. Some people are getting visits. Others are confiscated. Still others are getting "nah dawg, it's all good". Fuck AFT This member was the only person that had this experience, other than the people with the Cratus (Monocore kits). There is a good chance they are leaving out something relevant to why their case was handled differently. |
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Posted: 1/14/2022 10:13:49 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BigPolska: This experience: Does NOT agree with this one: Why the disparity? That is what is frustrating and confusing. Some people are getting visits. Others are confiscated. Still others are getting "nah dawg, it's all good". Fuck AFT Who knows, I can only imagine its how different branches are interpreting the letter. I never got a response from my local branch, at all after leaving several messages. no one answers. he basically said the letter was sent out without everyone being onboard on how to handle it. I'm just telling you what the guy from the Detroit branch, the place where the whole thing originated said. Its the only guidance I've gotten so far and seems more consistant with others responses then the few who are getting knocks or told something else. |
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Posted: 1/14/2022 10:32:37 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AgeOne: After talking with someone finally last night, an agent from Detroit, what it seems like is everyone is getting a letter no matter what they bought, if you have a form 1 everything is all good. He said he's been fielding over 300 calls a day and has at least that many to make every day for a while. He called me at 630 here, so they're working late. he said crossreferencing them against the NFA was difficult because so many people are on trusts so they would have to search through piles of paper work. even cracked a joke about how horribly inefficient government was. He said basically when they looked over the list there was a number of prohibited persons on that list, as well as a bunch of parts that left the country. He said they're not really interested in collecting any parts if you have a form1 because there's so many parts out there didn't say how many but it sounded like thousands upon thousands ,but mostly they're trying to weed out prohibited persons. Basically with that many people, they just want to scratch names off the list till they get down to the people ignoring the letter or the prohibited people. That's a lot of effort for some almost gun muffler parts. Not like they are drop in auto sears. Glad crime is so low they have time for this. I feel safer. 
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Posted: 1/14/2022 10:43:54 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AR_Dale: That's a lot of effort for some almost gun muffler parts. Not like they are drop in auto sears. Glad crime is so low they have time for this. I feel safer. I don't disagree, I just don't want to get caught up in something stupid where I followed the rules as it was explained at the time. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 1/14/2022 10:53:31 AM EDT
[#30]
Never purchased anything from them but would absolutely lawyer up even if I had a Form 1.
They’re saying these things are suppressors as is. A Form 1 is to manufacture one. Likely they do anything about it? No. Worth having someone competent handling the interaction in case they choose to make an example of you? 100% |
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Posted: 1/14/2022 2:51:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Homeinvader]
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BigPolska: Do you have any insight why some people are getting house calls and confiscation, while others are told (for now) don't worry, you are good to go? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BigPolska: Originally Posted By Homeinvader: Not a DM customer, but have been in this situation before. This is a clean-up job guys. While scary and certainly serious, it’s nothing to get too worked up about unless you’ve done something really and clearly illegal with the parts sold to you by DM. This isn’t the intended, under-the-table sale of contraband, where all parties are in full-understanding of the illegal nature of the transaction. This is the open-air, above-board sale of grayband, something of not-so-clear legality or illegality that would be expensive and time-consuming to litigate with very uncertain outcome and serving no higher judicial purpose. They just want the parts off the street, they’re not coming after you in that alone. They’re just doing their job and likely really don’t have any more guidance that “pick this stuff up”. Sure, you’ll be on a list, but you’re already on that list anyway. We all are. Do you have any insight why some people are getting house calls and confiscation, while others are told (for now) don't worry, you are good to go? It’s highly likely that field offices were contacted by Washington or even another field office, provided a list of customers in their AO with instructions to get in touch and collect whatever parts they purchased from DM. Nothing more specific. The differences are coming from individual Field Offices, SAICs or even individual agents figuring out the best way to do that in the absence of direction. You also have to understand that there are very different ATF cultures in field offices around the country. Agents of big city field offices in high-density areas deal with violent criminals routinely, their lives are literally at risk doing this job, so they bring that no-nonsense caution to your door. Field offices in more rural areas are more relaxed because they deal more often with routine compliance-related work, visiting FFLs, etc, not as much violent crime. They aren’t as much in that self-protection headspace. They’re not going to prosecute you over merely buying these parts. No one knew they were suppressor parts, and had every reason to think they were specifically NOT suppressor parts. This as a criminal case against customers would be highly dubious and uncertain, and that’s clearly not their interest here. They may be going after DM, a far more reasonable target here, and this is about evidence gathering. If you want to get a lawyer, nothing wrong with that as they deal with attorneys daily, but you’ll be paying a lot of money to wind up at the same place, the parts will be voluntarily relinquished (not confiscated) to the very same ATF agents. The absolute worst things you can do are stonewall them, demand a warrant, be generally obnoxious, or destroy the parts in question. Don’t actively work against their interests here, that’s where it’ll turn on you. Work with them and you’ll be totally fine, I assure you. |
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KY, USA
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Posted: 1/14/2022 3:08:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: JohnA4]
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Homeinvader: They’re not going to prosecute you over merely buying these parts. No one knew they were suppressor parts, and had every reason to think they were specifically NOT suppressor parts. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Homeinvader: They’re not going to prosecute you over merely buying these parts. No one knew they were suppressor parts, and had every reason to think they were specifically NOT suppressor parts. Because they ARE NOT SILENCERS. The actual law that concerns silencers (1934 National Firearms Act) says silencers are to be taxed. Anything more than that, is nothing more than government beaurocrats trying to change what the actual law says. The NFA doesn't say each and every part that might maybe probably possibly may be used to make a silencer is a silencer. That's nothing more than a bastardized interpretation that has gone on for too long. Let's think about this logically. Say you have an automobile tire and a rim. Can you be charged for tax evasion for failure to register a car with just those parts? No, because those PARTS are not a car any more than some threaded pipe or short pieces of unthreaded pipe are a silencer. They're just not. Originally Posted By Homeinvader: The absolute worst things you can do are stonewall them, demand a warrant, be generally obnoxious, or destroy the parts in question. Don’t actively work against their interests here, that’s where it’ll turn on you. Work with them and you’ll be totally fine, I assure you. My personal opinion, this is some of the worst advice that I have ever heard being given. |
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Posted: 1/14/2022 3:11:40 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Homeinvader: If you want to get a lawyer, nothing wrong with that as they deal with attorneys daily, Oh, good, thank you. I'm glad you're okay with that approach. |
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Posted: 1/14/2022 3:58:49 PM EDT
[#34]
This thread keeps going in circles now.
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Posted: 1/14/2022 4:03:15 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JohnA4: Because they ARE NOT SILENCERS. The actual law that concerns silencers (1934 National Firearms Act) says silencers are to be taxed. Anything more than that, is nothing more than government beaurocrats trying to change what the actual law says. The NFA doesn't say each and every part that might maybe probably possibly may be used to make a silencer is a silencer. That's nothing more than a bastardized interpretation that has gone on for too long. Let's think about this logically. Say you have an automobile tire and a rim. Can you be charged for tax evasion for failure to register a car with just those parts? No, because those PARTS are not a car any more than some threaded pipe or short pieces of unthreaded pipe are a silencer. They're just not. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JohnA4: Originally Posted By Homeinvader: They’re not going to prosecute you over merely buying these parts. No one knew they were suppressor parts, and had every reason to think they were specifically NOT suppressor parts. Because they ARE NOT SILENCERS. The actual law that concerns silencers (1934 National Firearms Act) says silencers are to be taxed. Anything more than that, is nothing more than government beaurocrats trying to change what the actual law says. The NFA doesn't say each and every part that might maybe probably possibly may be used to make a silencer is a silencer. That's nothing more than a bastardized interpretation that has gone on for too long. Let's think about this logically. Say you have an automobile tire and a rim. Can you be charged for tax evasion for failure to register a car with just those parts? No, because those PARTS are not a car any more than some threaded pipe or short pieces of unthreaded pipe are a silencer. They're just not. Unfortunately, the law does in fact include parts in the definition of “silencer”. And as unfortunately, you’d have to go to court to prove your point that dimpling a baffle, if that is really the issue here, doesn’t create a “silencer” under the parts definition of the NFA. And in playing so close to the line, like the aforementioned Akins Accelerator, FRT triggers, bump stocks, etc, you are increasing the chance of another counter-opinion to take hold. While I appreciate the cleverness and inventiveness of some of this, the products are inherently risky, legally speaking. Here, for DM, while “dimpling” a otherwise undrilled baffle, is hardly clever or inventive, it is taking the idea one step closer to “silencer”. |
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Posted: 1/14/2022 4:04:10 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JohnA4: Because they ARE NOT SILENCERS. The actual law that concerns silencers (1934 National Firearms Act) says silencers are to be taxed. Anything more than that, is nothing more than government beaurocrats trying to change what the actual law says. The NFA doesn't say each and every part that might maybe probably possibly may be used to make a silencer is a silencer. That's nothing more than a bastardized interpretation that has gone on for too long. Let's think about this logically. Say you have an automobile tire and a rim. Can you be charged for tax evasion for failure to register a car with just those parts? No, because those PARTS are not a car any more than some threaded pipe or short pieces of unthreaded pipe are a silencer. They're just not. The definition of a silencer was part of the Firearms Owners' Protection Act of 1986. That's something I learned over these last couple of weeks. It's still a nonsense definition and I agree with what you are saying with the car example. |
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Posted: 1/14/2022 4:27:52 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Homeinvader: Unfortunately, the law does in fact include parts in the definition of “silencer”. And as unfortunately, you’d have to go to court to prove your point that dimpling a baffle, if that is really the issue here, doesn’t create a “silencer” under the parts definition of the NFA. And in playing so close to the line, like the aforementioned Akins Accelerator, FRT triggers, bump stocks, etc, you are increasing the chance of another counter-opinion to take hold. While I appreciate the cleverness and inventiveness of some of this, the products are inherently risky, legally speaking. Here, for DM, while “dimpling” a otherwise undrilled baffle, is hardly clever or inventive, it is taking the idea one step closer to “silencer”. As was mentioned. You can buy already drilled end caps. Same for the mount end and pistons. How are those not suppressor parts? There is no logic to this NFA BS. |
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USA
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Posted: 1/14/2022 5:29:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Logcutter]
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AgeOne: Basically with that many people, they just want to scratch names off the list till they get down to the people ignoring the letter or the prohibited people. The "ignoring" group was what I wanted to avoid. I get the "don't invite the man" into your life thing. I really do. BUT, they sent the letter, and, IMO, ignoring it increases the odds of an actual at your door visit or even a raid with a warrant. It could still happen, at such time I STFU completely. But, if it does, their own courteous, polite, professional interaction with me that demonstrates my attempts to follow whatever the law is this week will look a lot better to any low IQ jury than barely veiled insinuations about what I was hiding or why I ignored the letter I could have gotten from some overzealous prosecutor. And, again, I have no contraband. I don't own any "parts." I have multiple tax stamps. If you are none of the above, your idea of what is or isn't a good idea could (and should) vary greatly from mine. |
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USA
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Posted: 1/14/2022 5:32:09 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AgeOne: I don't disagree, I just don't want to get caught up in something stupid where I followed the rules as it was explained at the time. Like I said before: copy of form-1 and copy of letter sent registered mail. Nothing else at all. Nada. Zero. Zip. It establishes your intent to comply. |
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Posted: 1/14/2022 6:23:16 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Logcutter: The "ignoring" group was what I wanted to avoid. I get the "don't invite the man" into your life thing. I really do. BUT, they sent the letter, and, IMO, ignoring it increases the odds of an actual at your door visit or even a raid with a warrant. It could still happen, at such time I STFU completely. But, if it does, their own courteous, polite, professional interaction with me that demonstrates my attempts to follow whatever the law is this week will look a lot better to any low IQ jury than barely veiled insinuations about what I was hiding out why I ignored the letter I could have gotten from some overzealous prosecutor. And, again, I have no contraband. I don't own any "parts." I have multiple tax stamps. If you are none of the above, your idea of what is or isn't a good idea could (and should) vary greatly from mine. I agree 100%. I had no intent to ignore. I just didn't know if there was an advantage to obtaining a lawyer. but from the short conversation I had, he basically just said "Do you have a tax stamp" I said, yes sir I do, would you like it emailed, he said good enough we're just calling to check and the only ones getting extra attention will be those who are potentially prohibited or do not have a tax stamp. he said the law abiding are pretty good about making sure they're in compliance on their end. I didn't feel like questioning what would happen with those people, I'm sure I don't want to know. It is unsettling knowing some people are getting knocks on the door, ect. but it seems to be less common than the response I received. |
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Posted: 1/14/2022 8:05:36 PM EDT
[#41]
What about if you have a form1 currently pending? Is that good to go like a completed form1? Obviously no holes drilled.
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NC, USA
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Posted: 1/14/2022 9:21:22 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Dyzastr:( What about if you have a form1 currently pending? Is that good to go like a completed form1? Obviously no holes drilled. If you tell that to ATF they will say destroy or turn in parts (probably). If you had lost them or destroyed them instead, they would check you off list (by what Prince Law was told). |
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Posted: 1/14/2022 9:27:25 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By c5hardtop: If you tell that to ATF they will say destroy or turn in parts (probably). If you had lost them or destroyed them instead, they would check you off list (by what Prince Law was told). Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By c5hardtop: Originally Posted By Dyzastr:( What about if you have a form1 currently pending? Is that good to go like a completed form1? Obviously no holes drilled. If you tell that to ATF they will say destroy or turn in parts (probably). If you had lost them or destroyed them instead, they would check you off list (by what Prince Law was told). Sounds about right. I wonder if anyone with this scenario of having a form 1 pending has spoke to the atf? I'm curious what they heard. Though as we have already seen, they atf seems to enjoy putting out contradictory info. |
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Posted: 1/14/2022 10:03:55 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AgeOne: I agree 100%. I had no intent to ignore. I just didn't know if there was an advantage to obtaining a lawyer. but from the short conversation I had, he basically just said "Do you have a tax stamp" I said, yes sir I do, would you like it emailed, he said good enough we're just calling to check and the only ones getting extra attention will be those who are potentially prohibited or do not have a tax stamp. he said the law abiding are pretty good about making sure they're in compliance on their end. I didn't feel like questioning what would happen with those people, I'm sure I don't want to know. It is unsettling knowing some people are getting knocks on the door, ect. but it seems to be less common than the response I received. We try, maybe they could quit moving the goal post. |
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USA
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Posted: 1/14/2022 11:39:57 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AR_Dale: We try, maybe they could quit moving the goal post. The mental gymnastics do cease to be amusing when you're dialing up the local ATF office in response to a letter they sent by FedEx, yet didn't even bother to put your name on. |
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MN, USA
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Posted: 1/15/2022 1:03:22 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Logcutter: Thanks for posting. I contacted my local office. They checked my name, form-1, and sent me an email stating https://i.postimg.cc/LsY3QLRk/Screenshot-20220112-111842-2.png I simply called stating I had received a DM letter and asked if I could have an email contact to send a picture of my F1. Minutes from call to reply. Polite, professional, and quick. Yes, I understand that they "could" still come back about parts blah blah blah, but then I would have contact only through a lawyer and would have this documentation backing me up in court. After reading the above, I decided being proactive was better than having ATF at my door. Time will tell if ignoring the letter was a good idea, but I feel better about my odds of not having agents at my door over something I bent over backwards to do legally. I never did get a call back from the agent that I talked to. I will have to make that a priority next week. |
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USA
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Posted: 1/15/2022 9:41:27 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mnandy: I never did get a call back from the agent that I talked to. I will have to make that a priority next week. My call was answered on the second ring. I only used email after the initial call. My job makes answering my personal phone iffy at best, and the agent I spoke with understood, and responded back to my F1 picture email within minutes. FWIW, my stuff is all in my name, not a trust. So there's a possibility that a quick look and seeing 5 stamps for silencers had an impact. I know I would personally be less inclined to think someone who had paid $1,000 in extra "tax" just to have silencers might not be a likely candidate to be trying to make one illegally. And, if it comes to trying to charge and convict people who had bought stuff to legally make a form-1 silencer after they had an approved stamp, well, I doubt that is going to help that stellar federal prosecutor conviction rate. The loser will be my bank account, but that's out of my hands at this point. |
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Posted: 1/15/2022 2:00:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: dayphotog]
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AgeOne: I agree 100%. I had no intent to ignore. I just didn't know if there was an advantage to obtaining a lawyer. but from the short conversation I had, he basically just said "Do you have a tax stamp" I said, yes sir I do, would you like it emailed, he said good enough we're just calling to check and the only ones getting extra attention will be those who are potentially prohibited or do not have a tax stamp. he said the law abiding are pretty good about making sure they're in compliance on their end. I didn't feel like questioning what would happen with those people, I'm sure I don't want to know. It is unsettling knowing some people are getting knocks on the door, ect. but it seems to be less common than the response I received. then they should have cross referenced the list first. is this laziness or is there more to this.... |
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Posted: 1/15/2022 3:59:21 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By dayphotog: then they should have cross referenced the list first. is this laziness or is there more to this.... He said the trusts made it nearly impossible and almost all of these are on trusts. |
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IA, USA
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Posted: 1/15/2022 4:56:54 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AgeOne: He said the trusts made it nearly impossible and almost all of these are on trusts. My trust is my last name, and at the same address. Should have been easy... or not.  I have all my stuff printed to keep together now, Form 1, parts order 3 years later, Tarheel PP charge from engraving a week after received, pic of finished engraving, and date stamped pics of parts on my Bridgeport for boring and clipping 6 months after engraving. Not much else I could have done in this timeline to try and do it right. |
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