I think I might try to start taking a martial art. While self-discipline and harmony and all that is good, honestly I am looking for one that is more focused on kicking arse . The first that came to mind was jiu jitsu. Does anyone else have any suggestions or input?

My brother has recommended brazilian ju jitsu.  It emphasizes self defense, fighting against armed attackers, the sort of things that would be useful in an emergency.

Jim

I knew a guy who was all into Judo and ju jitsu. Also something called small circle comething or another. Dude was untouchable.

I knew a guy who was all into Judo and small circle ju jitsu. Dude was untouchable.

He said all the other fighting styles are great if you want to win trophies.

Quoted: I knew a guy who was all into Judo and small circle ju jitsu. Dude was untouchable. He said all the other fighting styles are great if you want to win trophies.

Ju Jitsu is great.  It is more than just self defense.  It's philosophical, too.

ninpo/ ninjutsu

Since you are in California:

USA Chief Instructor
GWNBF/KJJR
Roy Ron (Now in Japan)
Tel: 81-489-32-4577
email: [email protected]

California

So. Cal

Dojo Locator: Aoba Dojo

Systems Taught: Genbukan Ninpo
KJJR

Head Instructor: Sam Mendelsohn
Titles: Dojo-Cho
Renshi

Address: Bake Parkway
Irvine, CA 92618
United States

Telephone: 1-949-285-6961
Fax: 1-949-609-5514
Email: [email protected]
Zensho Dojo
GWNBF/KJJR
-------------------------------------------------

Tony Villanueva
433 Eagle Rock Blvd., Apt.1, Los Angeles, CA.90041
Tel. & Fax: 323-478-9329
Email: [email protected]

-----------------------------------------------

Nor. Cal

Dojo Locator: Kamiyo Dojo

Systems Taught: Genbukan Ninpo
KJJR

Head Instructor: Brian Young
Title: Dojo-Cho

Address: 940 Park Avenue
San Jose, CA 95126
United States
Telephone: 650-562-3711
Email: [email protected]
Website: www.kamiyo-dojo.com/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dojo Locator: Ohka Dojo

Systems Taught: Genbukan Ninpo
KJJR

Head Instructor: Tyson Lutz
Title: Dojo-Cho

Address: Sacramento, CA 95829
United States

Telephone: 916-233-4541
Email: [email protected]
Website: www.ohkadojo.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------

These sites will help:

www.genbukan.org/japanese/Main/Masters/masters.html

www.ninpo.org

www.genbukan.org/cgi-bin/site.pl

Look into JKD (Jeet Kune Do).

Quoted: Look into JKD (Jeet Kune Do).

Ahh... founded by bruce lee.

Find a good MMA gym that trains both striking and groundfighting.  Most train jiu-jitsu and Muay Thai, which is a great combination.

Muay Thai hands down.  Total ass kicking

Tag. Ya'll remember the "Boot to the head" radio skit? Damn that was funny
I just quit smoking today so I'm looking for something that will give me some arobic excercise on my non-running days. I'm on the nicorette gum....but not for long.

Realize, most importantly, we're not talking about self defense, but fighting. I don't consider any fighting instruction without a detailed use-of-force lesson to be a legitimate for self defense. Anyone can teach you how to fight well. But attention must be paid to the fact that various techniques will be viewed differently in court and you really haven't defended yourself if you kill someone with the "five point palm exploding heart technique" and end up as someones bitch for 7 years on manslaughter charges.

If you're looking for effective street fighting skills, you probably don't want to go just with just something like Boxing or BJJ (depending on who's teaching the BJJ). Boxing teaches you to punch hard, but you're gonna need someone to work with you on kicks and clinch fighting (the kind of stuff that tends to f-up boxers). a lot of BJJ places focus nearly totally on groundfighting. This stuff is way overrated for actual street usage.

A lot of places teach both BJJ and MT and it's a good combo if you concentrate mainly on your stand up game and keep the ground stuff related to how to stand back up. Make sure the instructors are gonna teach you how to fight dirty, and not just prepare you for an octogon battle.

There's sport MMA and Street MMA.  Some people are hazy on what the difference is.  I think a good street MMA program will consist of MT & boxing (for your primary stand up game), BJJ (for getting yourself off the ground mainly) and philipino martial arts (for stick and knife defense).  The main difference is the addition of the philipino arts and the targeting of ground work to reality.  This all comes from the added awareness of two major points:

-Everyone is armed.
-Everyone has an army of friends.

To get decent fighting skills fast, combatives are the way to go. Krav Maga, Fight Survival Training (FIST). Each of those programs takes about 6 months to master compared to a MMA program which can take years. Combatives is the basics, Martial arts is a PhD.  You decide what will serve you best.

Are you going to become a mall ninja?

Quoted: To get decent fighting skills fast, combatives are the way to go. Krav Maga, Fight Survival Training (FIST). Each of those programs takes about 6 months to master compared to a MMA program which can take years. Combatives is the basics, Martial arts is a PhD.  You decide what will serve you best.

True in a sense. But any decent martial arts school starts out with the basics that you would learn at a combatives program: how to strike, how to block, how to stand, and how to react to specific occurances. The only difference is that the combative programs like Krav Maga rush you through these steps at an excelerated pace, and therefore, many never truly become proficient at the techniques they are trying to acquire.

If you have a true interest in self-defense and learning discipline, find a martial art that suits you and stay with it. Worry about learning 18 different martial arts after you have gotten through being somewhat proficient at one.

What I find totally ridiculous are all these so called martial arts masters that run around the country teaching 8 hour seminars; they teach you some pressure points and how to kill someone without even teaching someone the basics. Make sure you stay away from these people at all costs.

Good info on this thread, lots to think about.  It's good to have some grappling skill for self defense, but personally I would rely on my striking first and do whatever I could to avoid the ground, as was pointed out, because of the opponent possibly having friends or whatever who may enjoy stomping on you.

Me, if faced with a situation where I had to defend myself, I would do whatever I could to stay on the feet and use my Thai boxing experience to go for maximum devastation in the shortest possible time, my goal being to neutralize them or escape.  If I got taken down, my grappling I would use strictly to defend/escape and bring it back up to the feet.  

Just my $0.02.

Quoted: Quoted: To get decent fighting skills fast, combatives are the way to go. Krav Maga, Fight Survival Training (FIST). Each of those programs takes about 6 months to master compared to a MMA program which can take years. Combatives is the basics, Martial arts is a PhD.  You decide what will serve you best. True in a sense. But any decent martial arts school starts out with the basics that you would learn at a combatives program: how to strike, how to block, how to stand, and how to react to specific occurances. The only difference is that the combative programs like Krav Maga rush you through these steps at an excelerated pace, and therefore, many never truly become proficient at the techniques they are trying to acquire. If you have a true interest in self-defense and learning discipline, find a martial art that suits you and stay with it. Worry about learning 18 different martial arts after you have gotten through being somewhat proficient at one. What I find totally ridiculous are all these so called martial arts masters that run around the country teaching 8 hour seminars; they teach you some pressure points and how to kill someone without even teaching someone the basics. Make sure you stay away from these people at all costs.

Generally what combatives do is teach you something that is effective, easily learned and can be used when you leave.  Groin striked, palm strikes, knee kicks are all good examples.  With a martial arts you can spend hours perfecting your punch.  You'll get the basics in a marial art then move on.  combatives are like going to a vocational school.

Don't get me wrong, combatives work and are probably the best bet for someone who can't devote themselves to an art.  Even basic training is better than nothing and is going to give you a big edge agains the average asshole.

Seminars are good for people who are already martial artists and want to expand theis skills.  Usually someone who is already a martial artist has the dicipline to take the skill taught in the seminar, practice it and make it his own.  Granted, some guys are selling you crap.  Others, like nick hughes for example, knows his shit and can give you more new skills in a day than most guys can in a year.  Your job to perfect them however.  Just like taking a shooting class, it's your job to reenforce the skills back home on the range.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: To get decent fighting skills fast, combatives are the way to go. Krav Maga, Fight Survival Training (FIST). Each of those programs takes about 6 months to master compared to a MMA program which can take years. Combatives is the basics, Martial arts is a PhD.  You decide what will serve you best. True in a sense. But any decent martial arts school starts out with the basics that you would learn at a combatives program: how to strike, how to block, how to stand, and how to react to specific occurances. The only difference is that the combative programs like Krav Maga rush you through these steps at an excelerated pace, and therefore, many never truly become proficient at the techniques they are trying to acquire. If you have a true interest in self-defense and learning discipline, find a martial art that suits you and stay with it. Worry about learning 18 different martial arts after you have gotten through being somewhat proficient at one. What I find totally ridiculous are all these so called martial arts masters that run around the country teaching 8 hour seminars; they teach you some pressure points and how to kill someone without even teaching someone the basics. Make sure you stay away from these people at all costs. Generally what combatives do is teach you something that is effective, easily learned and can be used when you leave.  Groin striked, palm strikes, knee kicks are all good examples.  With a martial arts you can spend hours perfecting your punch.  You'll get the basics in a marial art then move on.  combatives are like going to a vocational school. Don't get me wrong, combatives work and are probably the best bet for someone who can't devote themselves to an art.  Even basic training is better than nothing and is going to give you a big edge agains the average asshole. Seminars are good for people who are already martial artists and want to expand theis skills.  Usually someone who is already a martial artist has the dicipline to take the skill taught in the seminar, practice it and make it his own.  Granted, some guys are selling you crap.  Others, like nick hughes for example, knows his shit and can give you more new skills in a day than most guys can in a year.  Your job to perfect them however.  Just like taking a shooting class, it's your job to reenforce the skills back home on the range.

I have no problem with this. My problem is that many of the people who teach such seminars aren't discriminating enough in who they take on as students. Many people tour the country giving these seminars to make as much money as they can, which means taking on people who are not already trained martial arts.

Some instructors (not all of course) teach people with no discipline and no martial arts background ways to cripple and kill someone. Giving people such skill, when they have no discipline or prior background in martial arts, is dangerous and could have deadly consequences.

If they were taking on only those who were martial artists trying to refine and add to their skills, there wouldn't be an issue. But from what I have seen, this isnt always the case. Beginners shouldn't start out learning how to cut off someone's blood flow or how to make someone go blind through use of pressure points.

as i said in my initial post:

"Realize, most importantly, we're not talking about self defense, but fighting. I don't consider any fighting instruction without a detailed use-of-force lesson to be a legitimate for self defense. Anyone can teach you how to fight well. But attention must be paid to the fact that various techniques will be viewed differently in court and you really haven't defended yourself if you kill someone with the "five point palm exploding heart technique" and end up as someones bitch for 7 years on manslaughter charges."

Anyone who simply want to be able to streetfight should start with BOXING.  There is nothing better for learning how to punch and beat the crap out of people.  Far superior in most every situation to every other style.  Put a MT guy in a ring with a boxer and make them box and the MT guy will get killed.  Look to box for 6 months to a year.  After that BJJ helps ground skills if you focus on no gi training.  You will learn all you need in 6 months. MT helps clinch work and gives a few effective kicks for the more experienced.  6 months of MT for a boxer is enough to become proficient.  I honestly do not think there is a difference in SPORT MMA and STREET MMA.  They are the EXACT same skill set IMO.  In fact the best self defense school will be able to prepare you for an Octagon battle as it was previously stated.  The only difference is eye gouging, biting, groin strikes etc.  You can learn that in 5 minutes.  Competant MMA skills take a couple years to develop.  Sparring with competative MMA fighters will make you that much better after you have the basics.  It is amazing how easy it is to kick the crap out of someone on the street when you are used to sparring competative fighters.

Stay away from all formal MA with belts like TKD, Karate, Akido, Judo, Kung Fu (including JKD) etc.  Although each has a few small things that can help you overall they are a waste of time and money.  I have a Black Belt in TKD from when I was a kid.  I have prettier kicks and I learned TKD sucks as a fighting style... thats what it was good for.  Did it for 5+ years.

Quoted: as i said in my initial post: "Realize, most importantly, we're not talking about self defense, but fighting. I don't consider any fighting instruction without a detailed use-of-force lesson to be a legitimate for self defense. Anyone can teach you how to fight well. But attention must be paid to the fact that various techniques will be viewed differently in court and you really haven't defended yourself if you kill someone with the "five point palm exploding heart technique" and end up as someones bitch for 7 years on manslaughter charges."

Where I live killing someone after their starting a fist fight is perfectly legal.  I am not sure what you are talking about.  Curb stomping a head after a guy is KOed is not the same as KOing a guy and him having his head fall on the curb and die.

Quoted: Anyone who simply want to be able to streetfight should start with BOXING.  There is nothing better for learning how to punch and beat the crap out of people.  Far superior in most every situation to every other style.  Put a MT guy in a ring with a boxer and make them box and the MT guy will get killed.  Look to box for 6 months to a year.  After that BJJ helps ground skills if you focus on no gi training.  You will learn all you need in 6 months. MT helps clinch work and gives a few effective kicks for the more experienced.  6 months of MT for a boxer is enough to become proficient.  I honestly do not think there is a difference in SPORT MMA and STREET MMA.  They are the EXACT same skill set IMO.  In fact the best self defense school will be able to prepare you for an Octagon battle as it was previously stated.  The only difference is eye gouging, biting, groin strikes etc.  You can learn that in 5 minutes.  Competant MMA skills take a couple years to develop.  Sparring with competative MMA fighters will make you that much better after you have the basics.  It is amazing how easy it is to kick the crap out of someone on the street when you are used to sparring competative fighters. Stay away from all formal MA with belts like TKD, Karate, Akido, Judo, Kung Fu (including JKD) etc.  Although each has a few small things that can help you overall they are a waste of time and money.  I have a Black Belt in TKD from when I was a kid.  I have prettier kicks and I learned TKD sucks as a fighting style... thats what it was good for.  Did it for 5+ years.

Put any boxer you want against any MMA or martial artist worth their salt and they wont last 2 minutes. As soon as the boxer was off his feet he would be fuckin toast. And since boxers aren't trainned to defend against takedowns, they wouldnt last more than a minute or two.... tops.

Try a few classes at several schools if possible.

IMHO for effective self defense you need a style where a version of controled competition is available - where someone is trying to either knock you out, choke you out, or hold you down.

Striking - Boxing, Myu Thai, Full Contact Karate (possibly)

Grappling - Brazilian Ju-Jitsu, Judo

Some schools teach a mixture.  However, if you try to be profficient at both striking and grappling at the same time, it take longer to be an expert.  Strong if you can do it, but it takes time.

A good instructor is ESSENTIAL.

Quoted: Put a MT guy in a ring with a boxer and make them box and the MT guy will get killed.

True.  Most boxers do have better hand skills than most Thai boxers.  But if you made the boxer fight under Thai rules, the MT guy will win.  We spar with boxers pretty regularly, and I think the MT and MMA fighters at our gym have better hand skills because of it.  But the boxers always say the same thing before sparring you...."no kicks!"  

Look to box for 6 months to a year.  After that BJJ helps ground skills if you focus on no gi training.  You will learn all you need in 6 months. MT helps clinch work and gives a few effective kicks for the more experienced.  6 months of MT for a boxer is enough to become proficient.  I honestly do not think there is a difference in SPORT MMA and STREET MMA.  They are the EXACT same skill set IMO.  In fact the best self defense school will be able to prepare you for an Octagon battle as it was previously stated.  The only difference is eye gouging, biting, groin strikes etc.  You can learn that in 5 minutes.  Competant MMA skills take a couple years to develop.  Sparring with competative MMA fighters will make you that much better after you have the basics.  It is amazing how easy it is to kick the crap out of someone on the street when you are used to sparring competative fighters.

Good info.

Quoted: Try a few classes at several schools if possible. IMHO for effective self defense you need a style where a version of controled competition is available - where someone is trying to either knock you out, choke you out, or hold you down.

Yes, lots of competition out there, grappling tournaments, boxing, Muay Thai bouts, and MMA.  Nothing like preparing for a competition, and I think that helps to prepare you for a self-defense situation.  

I compete in Muay Thai.  I know there's a big difference between competing in an organized bout, and a self-defense situation, but I think competing definitely helps.  Sparring and competing, you learn to keep your head when you get hit/hurt, and keep fighting.  It's not the same as a street fight, but those are important things to learn, that you just can't learn without some type of sparring at least, but competition is better.  Sparring is generally more controlled, guys you train with, so you know each other and not looking to hurt anyone.  Then, you get in the ring with some guy who's there to knock you out, and it's a different ball game LOL.

A good instructor is ESSENTIAL.

Big +1

Which martial art should I pursue?

Why, GUN FOO of course.  

Quoted: Stay away from all formal MA with belts like TKD, Karate, Akido, Judo, Kung Fu (including JKD) etc.  Although each has a few small things that can help you overall they are a waste of time and money.  I have a Black Belt in TKD from when I was a kid.  I have prettier kicks and I learned TKD sucks as a fighting style... thats what it was good for.  Did it for 5+ years.

I think this is wrong. While I agree that TKD is only good for olympic type sparring, that doesn't mean the same is true of other formal martial arts. DevL's mistake was he picked a martial art not suited for fighting.

Brazilian Jujutsu, ninjutsu, hapkido, and others are effective fighting arts and should not be lumped in with TKD.

Quoted: Quoted: Anyone who simply want to be able to streetfight should start with BOXING.  There is nothing better for learning how to punch and beat the crap out of people.  Far superior in most every situation to every other style.  Put a MT guy in a ring with a boxer and make them box and the MT guy will get killed.  Look to box for 6 months to a year.  After that BJJ helps ground skills if you focus on no gi training.  You will learn all you need in 6 months. MT helps clinch work and gives a few effective kicks for the more experienced.  6 months of MT for a boxer is enough to become proficient.  I honestly do not think there is a difference in SPORT MMA and STREET MMA.  They are the EXACT same skill set IMO.  In fact the best self defense school will be able to prepare you for an Octagon battle as it was previously stated.  The only difference is eye gouging, biting, groin strikes etc.  You can learn that in 5 minutes.  Competant MMA skills take a couple years to develop.  Sparring with competative MMA fighters will make you that much better after you have the basics.  It is amazing how easy it is to kick the crap out of someone on the street when you are used to sparring competative fighters. Stay away from all formal MA with belts like TKD, Karate, Akido, Judo, Kung Fu (including JKD) etc.  Although each has a few small things that can help you overall they are a waste of time and money.  I have a Black Belt in TKD from when I was a kid.  I have prettier kicks and I learned TKD sucks as a fighting style... thats what it was good for.  Did it for 5+ years. Put any boxer you want against any MMA or martial artist worth their salt and they wont last 2 minutes. As soon as the boxer was off his feet he would be fuckin toast. And since boxers aren't trainned to defend against takedowns, they wouldnt last more than a minute or two.... tops.

Bullshit on the martial arts.  Boxing, Muay Thai, and some grappling experience is what you need.  This is what MMA guys learn.  99% of street-fights / self-defense situations are determined by gaining the initiative and delivering the most violence the quickest.  


One of the reasons that boxing and Muay Thai are so effective is because a boxer not only learns technique, he learns how to operate under adrenal stress.  Anyone who doesn't actually step up and hit and be hit will not respond well to a real situation no matter how pretty their belt looks.  Read a book called "Real Fighting" to see how martial artists fair in real life.


Another thing to remember is that you want to keep the bulk of your approach to hand-to-hand in line with the KISS principle.  If you try to execute complicated techniques in real life expect to say hello to the floor.  

Learning how to defend against kicks is very easy, Muay Thai fighters use variations of one basic block for this.  As far as gound-fighting, you need to be comfortable with the gaurd, and caving someone's face in from mounted position.  Learning submission holds can come later.  You have to remember that in order to execute anything that you learn under the adrenaline and realities of actual combat you will have to have ingrained it into your nervous system until it becomes second nature.  

Start with boxing, get a good trainer and get in good enough shape and learn enough to start sparring.  You will benefit more from this than anything else you could ever do.  Once you learn good footwork, how to strike and defend, then you can start getting some experience with Muay Thai.  Only after you have done this for at least a year or two should you start looking into getting some grappling experience.  


Whatever you do, stay away from gay ass classical martial artists.  Be patient, keep it simple, get in shape, and get as much actual experience in the ring and on the mat as you possibly can.  

Quoted: Quoted: Put a MT guy in a ring with a boxer and make them box and the MT guy will get killed.   True.  Most boxers do have better hand skills than most Thai boxers.  But if you made the boxer fight under Thai rules, the MT guy will win.  We spar with boxers pretty regularly, and I think the MT and MMA fighters at our gym have better hand skills because of it.  But the boxers always say the same thing before sparring you...."no kicks!"   Look to box for 6 months to a year.  After that BJJ helps ground skills if you focus on no gi training.  You will learn all you need in 6 months. MT helps clinch work and gives a few effective kicks for the more experienced.  6 months of MT for a boxer is enough to become proficient.  I honestly do not think there is a difference in SPORT MMA and STREET MMA.  They are the EXACT same skill set IMO.  In fact the best self defense school will be able to prepare you for an Octagon battle as it was previously stated.  The only difference is eye gouging, biting, groin strikes etc.  You can learn that in 5 minutes.  Competant MMA skills take a couple years to develop.  Sparring with competative MMA fighters will make you that much better after you have the basics.  It is amazing how easy it is to kick the crap out of someone on the street when you are used to sparring competative fighters. Good info.

I have boxed for a long time.  I have a little bit of kickboxing experience now too.  Once, before I really had any kickboxing experience, I went to a boxing/kickboxing tournament expecting to box, and the guy I was matched up against was a kickboxer and said he wouldn't fight unless it was kickboxing.  Well I at least knew enough on how to block kicks with my shin and forearm.  The fight didn't last to the end of the second round.  I would wait for him to throw a kick, absorb it with my shin or my forearm, and close in on his ass.  He did land one really good front kick to my chest that had me gasping for air, hurt like a mother fucker too, but my foot-work kept me alive until I could recover.  


I think it all depends on the boxer and the kickboxer.  Although I would agree that having some experience in kickboxing is good just for the sake of having a more diverse skill-set.  At the same time, I have elected to focus on boxing and while I know how to use kicks, knees, and especially elbows (one of my favorites ) boxing has developed my hand speed, skill, and coordination to a level that I would bet 99% of any real-life situations that I will ever be in would be over pretty damn quick.  




ETA:   I just wanted to add one more thing to this thread on my way out.  You need to take into account the realities of an actual fight (which most people don't do).  Anything you learn needs to be burned into your nervous system so deeply that it happens naturally in an instantaneous adrenaline rushing type situation.  There is no such thing as fine motor skill in a fight unless it is the result of countless repitition, the only fine motor skills that you will retain are those that you have repeated so many times that they become natural.  They say that it takes between 3,000-7,000 correct repititions for something to be permanently burned into your nervous system.  

Start either with boxing or a good grappling discipline, after at least six months then you can start trying to get some experience with all three of the following:  boxing, muay thai, grappling / ju-juitsu.

My recommendation would be to start with boxing.  It will also be a great way to turn yourself into a fighter and get some experience in the adrenaline-zone by actually getting into the ring.  




Oh, and also, with the exception of a few ground-fighting schools (which I don't consider "classical")  classical martial arts are for fucking faggots and wanna-be's.  I love to watch the old UFC videos when all of these TKD guys and shit tried to step into the ring with boxers and grapplers.  I have never seen such hilarious ass-beatings anywhere else.  All real MMA fighters basically learn the skill sets you will find in boxing, muay thai, and ju-juitsu.    

Boxing is good if not only to learn how to take hits and defend against them.  Some of the striking stuff is good for improving your power.  A lot of boxers tend to break their hands with the gloves off due to the way they punch however (punching with the three small knuckles and a horizontal fist).  Clinch fighting and foot sweeps tend to mess up boxers pretty bad.  most boxers are expecting a break when they clinch up, not an elbow in the face or a knee.  Boxers generally don't watch feet and if you can put him on his ass with a sweep and stomp on his head your good to go.

Boxing also lacks training against multiple opponents and any weapon defenses.  In streetfights assholes bring weapons and friends.

Traditional martial arts do work.  It's the sporterized recreational versions of these martial arts which do not.  One of my instructors, worked the door at a club in australia for years and kicked everyones ass with zen do kai karate (a form that cuts out all the bullshit),  The guy is also a black belt in that akido, judo, ju jitsu and has fought approximately 2000 opponents on the street to date.  I'm not sure if i'd classify a guy who dismantled 21 british punks, many hastily armed, on a london street corner a faggot wanna-be.

I'll repeat my advice for the last time.  Something for stand up, something to get off the ground, something for weapons and above all, the fighting mindset.

I knew a guy who was all into Judo and ju jitsu. Also something called small circle comething or another. Dude was untouchable.

Small Circle Juijitsui by Prof Wally Jay

Quoted: Boxing is good if not only to learn how to take hits and defend against them.  Some of the striking stuff is good for improving your power.  A lot of boxers tend to break their hands with the gloves off due to the way they punch however (punching with the three small knuckles and a horizontal fist).  Clinch fighting and foot sweeps tend to mess up boxers pretty bad.  most boxers are expecting a break when they clinch up, not an elbow in the face or a knee.  Boxers generally don't watch feet and if you can put him on his ass with a sweep and stomp on his head your good to go. Boxing also lacks training against multiple opponents and any weapon defenses.  In streetfights assholes bring weapons and friends. Traditional martial arts do work.  It's the sporterized recreational versions of these martial arts which do not.  One of my instructors, worked the door at a club in australia for years and kicked everyones ass with zen do kai karate (a form that cuts out all the bullshit),  The guy is also a black belt in that akido, judo, ju jitsu and has fought approximately 2000 opponents on the street to date.  I'm not sure if i'd classify a guy who dismantled 21 british punks, many hastily armed, on a london street corner a faggot wanna-be. I'll repeat my advice for the last time.  Something for stand up, something to get off the ground, something for weapons and above all, the fighting mindset.

+1

I don't want to get into a gay discussion that my sensei can beat up boxer; however, I think eternal is way off base.

Martial arts can be very effective if one is properly trainned. No one, in a real fight, is going to try to fight with some routine Kata. They are going to react instinctively using techniques which have been drilled into them.

Furthermore, to think that martial artists never spar and don't know what it feels like to be hit (as Eternal put it... knowing the adrenal rush) is bullshit. I guarantee that I have been hit harder by my sensei than I will probably ever be hit on the street.

While a formal martial art may take longer to master it will give you a deeper knowledge to draw from and will give you many additional skills compared to boxing or muay tai.

My wife is Philipino, 11 brothers, 2 sisters. 9 of her brothers either were or are proffessional fighters. One of her brothers was a world champion, 7 of her brothers were champions. Thia Kickboxing and a Muay Thai type of combination are the way to go. They teach you how to endure, how to live fighting and how to take the punishment that comes with it.

Cross training is the rage these days, and in my opinion is the best way to go.  Comming from a JKD Back round, I've trained in Western Boxing, Thai Boxing, Brazillian Jiu Jitsu, and Filipino Arnis/escrima.  I fought competitively as a western kickboxer for 5 years.  I started at 12 with Kung fu and by the age of 16 I was turned off by McDojo's that were in reality belt factories.  It took almost a decade until I found this small JKD school in an industrial section to regain my love for the arts.  I begain training again, lost about 70 lbs, and begain fighting (competitively).  I also begain assisting my trainer with new people, until I finally had classes and private lessons of my own.

For my experiences, I can give you this advice if you are looking for a good combative mix.  Find a boxing gym and learn to box.  Proper ways to throw punches, balance, and most importantly build the endurance needed to "go into the championship rounds."  I've seen many "fighters" (varios styles, not just boxing) piss out in the begining of the fight and get their asses handed to them.

Grappling arts and a must today.  In the least to be able to defend yourself on your back and not feel totally helpless if you get knocked off your feet.  You at least want to beable to fight your way back to your feet again.  Eventually you will feel comfortable fighting down their, but in the begining you just don't want that "Oh shit, what do I do know?" when you get tackeled.

Muay Thai, is not something you just pick up.  It takes alot of devotion.  Yes, you can learn the blocks and strikes easily enough, but going bone to bone with your shin takes years of conditioning.  I've seen acouple of times where UFC ground fighter say in interviews that to ghelp round out their fighting styles they'e ben training in Muay Thai for the last 6 months and they are ready.  I laugh my ass off when they throw their first leg kick or block they first leg kick with their shin and they start limping.  In the begining you take a kicking art, not so much to be able to kick, but moreso, to be able to see when you are being kicked.  Most KO's are from strikes that you never saw comming.

Of the three styles above, Boxing has the easiest learning curve.  The subtlties (slipping/ducking punches) take time to develop, but for the most part you should be able to brawl almost immediately.  Grappling may be frustrating, but then suddenly it begins to click and you feel comfortable on the ground.  Thai is all about the conditioning.

Lets just hope that all the homos studying classical arts don't get together and design a superior system to defeat us  MMA Krav Maga super bad ass booby loving extra straight guys...

Thanks for all the input. It seems that many suggest I start with boxing then move on to BJJ or MT. How do I even get started w/ boxing? Is it like TKD where I can go and learn?

I did find this place, it's not very close to me however, quite a drive especially w/ traffic http://www.laboxingclub.com/index.htm

Still welcoming any other input or suggestions!

What kind of postition do you envision yourself in where you need to use your skills? Will you want to restrain a friend that gets too rowdy without doing permanent damage? Or are you planning on just going ape wild on anybody that makes the mistake of messing with you? Multiple attackers? Weapons?

Also what is your physical build? A 5'0 guy built like a brick sh--house may not need to worry too much about throwing high kicks to the face. Same as a guy that's 6'6" isn't going to be doing too many hip throws.

It is important to find an art that fits you well.  I am a relitivly short (5'8") guy and I weigh 240.  Not exactly a good mix for tryin to kick someone ion the head Tae Kwan Do style, but I find my self happy in Judo and Jujutsu.  Keep those things in mind.  In my Jistu class we train for real events like against more than one opponant, with our hands bound with duct tape, ans concentrate on things that are important to our well being like not punching with a closed fist to the face.  Yeah you kicked the guys ass, but you now have an HIV infected tooth sticking out of your knuckle.  That and don't go to ground if you can help it, cuz Ray Ray will likely have a homey to give you the boot after you perform your perfect naked choke.  Asking what martial art is best is like asking what gun should you get.  It really matters little, just find one that fits, and practice.  

Have fun!

jim

  Small Circle Juijitsui by Prof Wally Jay  


+1000

Wally J kicks ass !!! not bad for a 85+ year old man....

Try Filipino Martial Art.  Its a all around system with weapons, open hands and grappling.  In a nut shell its a no nonsense martial art that teaches to take out the other person efficiently with minimal moves to get the job done.  Email me if you are interested.

DevL said:

Stay away from all formal MA with belts like TKD, Karate, Akido, Judo, Kung Fu (including JKD) etc. Although each has a few small things that can help you overall they are a waste of time and money. I have a Black Belt in TKD from when I was a kid. I have prettier kicks and I learned TKD sucks as a fighting style... thats what it was good for. Did it for 5+ years.

DevL has a good point wrt belts.  They will guide you along an art but may or may not teach you how to fight.  Belts will give you a marker on how well you are learning a skill set and can be useful in that regard.  Belts will also hold up your pants.  These are useful purposes.  

JKD does not have belts.

JKD emphasizes tools at all ranges.  It respects all arts and encourages exploring all useful arts.  
The unique aspects to JKD include more concepts than techniques.  The techniques come from many arts.

My personal favorites are the Filipino Arts.  They emphasize weapons and multiple assailants from day one.  I value the "JKD Concepts"approach as well as "Traditional" JKD, and don't spend too much time on family squabbles.  BJJ is absolutely first rate, and has evolved over the years.  A good ground game is essential.  Put in some weapons related grappling arts (Silat), with the great mechanics of boxing and you have tools for all ranges.  Add some GrecoRoman body manipulation and you have the full meal deal.

Don't forget "Ching-Ching Pow" Gun Fu, and the ancient art of "Run Fu."

There are many who will be better at a given art but not so many who can function in different elements.  Think "Learn from those better than you."


My opinion, worth just what you are paying for it, is that you should find what works for you and get good at it, and don't forget to learn what others have to offer along the way.  Decide what your goals are and plan a route to get you there.  I decided to learn to deal with multiple armed assailants and still guide my training that way.  I am not perfect but my survival skills are better than when I started 15 years ago. Now if I could just figure out how to get my aging body to go along

If you are in the LA area, look up my instructors Sifu Paul Vunak or Sijo Dan Inosanto.  Google will work.

Regards to all,

Rick

PS   What Vinnie said...  He makes a lot of sense.

I really love boxing for the body mechanics and the ability to deliver efficient strikes.  I don't like staying in to get hit, and I don't like breaking my hands on knuckleheads.  The open hand slaps of Kali (Filipino arts), and other arts, works for me.  The Filipino weapons bring out body mechanics as well, as does BJJ on the ground.

Truth?  I think we do this because it's fun, among other reasons.  You have to look at it as something that you will want to be doing in 20 years.

Keep Training, guys!

Rick

Quoted:  Asking what martial art is best is like asking what gun should you get.  It really matters little, just find one that fits, and practice.   Have fun! jim

+1

Quoted: Try Filipino Martial Art.  Its a all around system with weapons, open hands and grappling.  In a nut shell its a no nonsense martial art that teaches to take out the other person efficiently with minimal moves to get the job done.  Email me if you are interested.

I did some training with grand tuhon gaje.  Just like any other form, there's some crap that can be cut out.  Stick stuff was good, knife was a mix of good stuff and stupid stuff, the unarmed stuff was neat with the passing but i found their striking,  takedowns and ground work utterly useless.  It just didn't work.  Gaje made some work, but even the lead instructor of the kali school hosting him couldn't get the shit to work unless you gave it to him.

If you're gonna do stick and knife work in kali, do it with someone who has analyized the form and cut out all the crap.  An instructor of mine named nick hughes runs an awesome knife and improvised weapons seminar, much of it based on kali with the fat trimmed off.

In short, i don't recommend just Philipino arts as a stand alone program, but it certainly is a neccecary part for the impact and bladed weapons work.  Just find a good instructor in "combat kali" versus the more dogmatic stuff.

As for street MMA and sport MMA, there is a distinct difference.  Street MMA isn't just adding dirty moves, it's adding multiple opponents and weapons to the mix.  You are forced to change your tactics given new variables.  The option of taking a good striker to the ground and submitting him is no longer an option when he has a friend or a blade, which most of the time you won't even see until it's too late.  It's totally different mindset, and tactics, even though the skills are virtually the same (with the exception of weapons training).  Remember, your mindset and tactics are what's gonna help you win moreso than your skills.

Quoted: It is important to find an art that fits you well.  I am a relitivly short (5'8") guy and I weigh 240.  Not exactly a good mix for tryin to kick someone ion the head Tae Kwan Do style, but I find my self happy in Judo and Jujutsu.  Keep those things in mind.  In my Jistu class we train for real events like against more than one opponant, with our hands bound with duct tape, ans concentrate on things that are important to our well being like not punching with a closed fist to the face.  Yeah you kicked the guys ass, but you now have an HIV infected tooth sticking out of your knuckle.  That and don't go to ground if you can help it, cuz Ray Ray will likely have a homey to give you the boot after you perform your perfect naked choke.  Asking what martial art is best is like asking what gun should you get.  It really matters little, just find one that fits, and practice.   Have fun! jim

Exactly what i'm talking about.  Sounds like your instructor is on the ball when it comes to reality.  Also emphasising what i said about finding the right jujitsu instructor.  I like that he's teaching you open hand too.  Not just from an injuring yourself standpoint, but it also looks decidedly less violent to witnesses striking with an open hand.  can be the difference between being let go and getting in trouble when the cops show up.  Personally, i love using palm slaps.  open hand and flare the palm out just before impact. looks like a bitch slap but is absolutely brutal and all the witnesses say "he only slapped him" versus "he punched him right in the jaw"  Use the old bouncer trick of yelling "stop fighting!" or "stop! Go away!" while dishing out your beating.  Makes you look like the good guy.

Alright, enough free tips, anything more costs by the hour.

Quoted: My brother has recommended brazilian ju jitsu.  It emphasizes self defense, fighting against armed attackers, the sort of things that would be useful in an emergency. Jim

Brazilian is a sport art period.  Their are hybrid/MMA styles that teach a combo of JJ/Muay Thai/Wrestling these should be sought out if traditional JAPANESE style Ju Jutsu(note the spelling it denote the pure unarmed combative art)  Avoid TKD(bad instructors impractical), Karate(mostly bad instructors), and Northern style Kung Fus out of hand especially if they teach pointfighting and if you are guarantedd belts in a time frame or by attendance record.  Outside of that look into KaJuKenBo Kenpo, Muay Thai, Hapkido and Krav Maga.  Also if you see Pre-puebescent Black belts walk out they have nothing constructive for you.

My experience Jr.Black in TKD (WTF)
Browns in Judo and Ju Jutsu
And moderate instruction in Muay Thai and KaJuKenBo.


I have had the advantage of training in schools with excellent diversity in previous training and all can be called on to teach their previous styles at any time diversity and practicality is a big part of my instructors beliefs and now my own.

all in the instructor matt, nex's jujitsu guy sounds like he's on the ball.  Back when i was looking for the right school for myself i took the free sample classes at a bunch of places and I've seen good and bad in every style and i'm convinced that many of the styles that are often discounted have stuff to offer with a solid instructor.  Karate for instance gets a bad rep because back in the 80's when it became popular every yellow belt that had trained in japan came over and started playing sensei.  Simply didn't know what they were doing.  There are some killer combat karate forms out there that have a lot to offer.

Quoted: Quoted: Anyone who simply want to be able to streetfight should start with BOXING.  There is nothing better for learning how to punch and beat the crap out of people.  Far superior in most every situation to every other style.  Put a MT guy in a ring with a boxer and make them box and the MT guy will get killed.  Look to box for 6 months to a year.  After that BJJ helps ground skills if you focus on no gi training.  You will learn all you need in 6 months. MT helps clinch work and gives a few effective kicks for the more experienced.  6 months of MT for a boxer is enough to become proficient.  I honestly do not think there is a difference in SPORT MMA and STREET MMA.  They are the EXACT same skill set IMO.  In fact the best self defense school will be able to prepare you for an Octagon battle as it was previously stated.  The only difference is eye gouging, biting, groin strikes etc.  You can learn that in 5 minutes.  Competant MMA skills take a couple years to develop.  Sparring with competative MMA fighters will make you that much better after you have the basics.  It is amazing how easy it is to kick the crap out of someone on the street when you are used to sparring competative fighters. Stay away from all formal MA with belts like TKD, Karate, Akido, Judo, Kung Fu (including JKD) etc.  Although each has a few small things that can help you overall they are a waste of time and money.  I have a Black Belt in TKD from when I was a kid.  I have prettier kicks and I learned TKD sucks as a fighting style... thats what it was good for.  Did it for 5+ years. Put any boxer you want against any MMA or martial artist worth their salt and they wont last 2 minutes. As soon as the boxer was off his feet he would be fuckin toast. And since boxers aren't trainned to defend against takedowns, they wouldnt last more than a minute or two.... tops.

What exactly is your point?  For the majority of physical encounters for the maojrity of people in the majority of fights boxing is superior to other individual MA studied over the same time frame.  You are useless as a street fighter if you cant throw a punch.  A boxer with a black belt in BJJ will destroy a BJJ guy.  What does that prove?  Nothing.  I dont understand what you are trying to imply.

As for some others who were trying to defend certain Kung FU styles or JKD... I have seen several JKD people who teach "trapping" taken from tradional kung fu.  This NEVER works on someone who can fight.

boxing has a limited application and i don't recommend as a stand alone fighting style though it is a wonderful addition to your arsenal as it can improve striking, defense. and takes a relatively short time to learn.

As a stand alone it can get you hurt.  No weapon defenses, no training against multiple opponents, inadiquate footwork for encounters with multiple opponents, No familiarity with grapplers.  Not to mention the subtle differences in punching with a bare hand versus with a 12 oz glove.

A good skill to posess, but certainly not the alpha and omega.

DevL  said:

"As for some others who were trying to defend certain Kung FU styles or JKD... I have seen several JKD people who teach "trapping" taken from tradional kung fu. This NEVER works on someone who can fight."

Not sure how I should respond to this as I think I'm the only JKD guy here right now but I didn't defend traditional kung fu or JKD for that matter.  

DevL, I'm not sure what you consider "trapping" to be.  If you consider it to be only traditional Wing Chun trapping, then what you say is often true.  Even if it's "traditional" JKD trapping, whatever that is, it may well be true.  "Most" of the old time JKD guys will acknowledge that the main reason "trapping" worked was because nobody had seen it and the stylized Karate practicioners would leave that punch out there just asking to be attached.  Also, by informed accounts Bruce Lee really was that good.  Kind of the Michael Jordan of his milieu. Maybe he could do the same today, who knows.

I don't think too many trappers these days would figure that they would attach and follow a good boxer or Muay Thai fighter.  Most of them have cross trained so would probably have another plan.

But, I think this is important: Good boxing trainers will teach the timing to counter after a flurry, or to ride in a sloppy jab, and every good Muay Thai guy I can recall can work through the long and intermediate range stuff to a clinch and CQB tools.  Good Greco Roman guys (eg Randy Couture) do the same.  BJJ guys do too, but differently. (Royce Gracie: "I don't want to be hit.") Other arts are effective at this as well.

This range that they work through can be called Trapping Range and while they don't do Wing Chun type trapping, or even call it trapping,  the contact and limb manipulation is critical.  This range is not unique to Wing Chun, and certainly not to JKD.  I think it's the range and the tools available in that range that are important.

Matt Thornton, one of the best MMA trainers on the West Coast, has said he doesn't believe in trapping.  He can comment since he is actually an Excellent trapper, among other strengths, and I understand his point.  But when you see his guys move, they have trapping tools working in the right range.  So even if we don't call it trapping or even "believe" in it, that tiny little critical range still exists and we have to be able to survive it.  

There is value in training with the specialists in this trapping range, though.   One of the best ways to develop a skill is to isolate and to train that element.  If I want to get better at tactical reloads I practice tactical reloads.  If I want to get better at trapping range I respect those who know trapping range.  BTW, they are very very good at developing power strikes at very short distances, so there are fringe benefits.

I look at it sort of like asking which is better, an AR or a Glock?  A chisel or a screwdriver? Depends on the job at hand.  I like both.  I like what works. Hey, I even like pie.

Rick

"When all I have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail."

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Anyone who simply want to be able to streetfight should start with BOXING.  There is nothing better for learning how to punch and beat the crap out of people.  Far superior in most every situation to every other style.  Put a MT guy in a ring with a boxer and make them box and the MT guy will get killed.  Look to box for 6 months to a year.  After that BJJ helps ground skills if you focus on no gi training.  You will learn all you need in 6 months. MT helps clinch work and gives a few effective kicks for the more experienced.  6 months of MT for a boxer is enough to become proficient.  I honestly do not think there is a difference in SPORT MMA and STREET MMA.  They are the EXACT same skill set IMO.  In fact the best self defense school will be able to prepare you for an Octagon battle as it was previously stated.  The only difference is eye gouging, biting, groin strikes etc.  You can learn that in 5 minutes.  Competant MMA skills take a couple years to develop.  Sparring with competative MMA fighters will make you that much better after you have the basics.  It is amazing how easy it is to kick the crap out of someone on the street when you are used to sparring competative fighters. Stay away from all formal MA with belts like TKD, Karate, Akido, Judo, Kung Fu (including JKD) etc.  Although each has a few small things that can help you overall they are a waste of time and money.  I have a Black Belt in TKD from when I was a kid.  I have prettier kicks and I learned TKD sucks as a fighting style... thats what it was good for.  Did it for 5+ years. Put any boxer you want against any MMA or martial artist worth their salt and they wont last 2 minutes. As soon as the boxer was off his feet he would be fuckin toast. And since boxers aren't trainned to defend against takedowns, they wouldnt last more than a minute or two.... tops. What exactly is your point?  For the majority of physical encounters for the maojrity of people in the majority of fights boxing is superior to other individual MA studied over the same time frame.  You are useless as a street fighter if you cant throw a punch.  A boxer with a black belt in BJJ will destroy a BJJ guy.  What does that prove?  Nothing.  I dont understand what you are trying to imply. As for some others who were trying to defend certain Kung FU styles or JKD... I have seen several JKD people who teach "trapping" taken from tradional kung fu.  This NEVER works on someone who can fight.

Quoted: boxing has a limited application and i don't recommend as a stand alone fighting style though it is a wonderful addition to your arsenal as it can improve striking, defense. and takes a relatively short time to learn. As a stand alone it can get you hurt.  No weapon defenses, no training against multiple opponents, inadiquate footwork for encounters with multiple opponents, No familiarity with grapplers.  Not to mention the subtle differences in punching with a bare hand versus with a 12 oz glove. A good skill to posess, but certainly not the alpha and omega.

Clubsoda22 just summed up perfectly what I was trying to say DevL. You made it seem from your comments that boxing trainning alone would be enough to beat any fighter with martial arts trainning. In your follow on comment above, you now qualify your previous comments regarding boxers stating that a boxer that had trainning in other martial arts would beat a traditional martial artist. This is not what you originally said, and that is why I questioned your original statement.

here's an example of a boxing skill i implemented in my fighting.  when throwing a straight jab or cross with your weak or strong hand, a lot or martial arts teach you to twist and pivot on the balls of your feet to add power.  A boxer taught me to not only pivot but take a short 2 inch step forward with the same leg as the hand i'm throwing (simultaneously).  Balerly lift your foot, just slide it forward 2" and bam! It throws an extra few pounds of body weight behind your punch.  Serious KO power.  Combine the short step with the twist and punching through your target and you'll be punching harder in no time.  Another advantage that no boxer would think of.  sometimes people get confused and think you're about to throw a forward leg kick.  end up with their hands in the wrong place.

alright, seriously, no more free lessons

Quoted: What kind of postition do you envision yourself in where you need to use your skills? Will you want to restrain a friend that gets too rowdy without doing permanent damage? Or are you planning on just going ape wild on anybody that makes the mistake of messing with you? Multiple attackers? Weapons? Also what is your physical build? A 5'0 guy built like a brick sh--house may not need to worry too much about throwing high kicks to the face. Same as a guy that's 6'6" isn't going to be doing too many hip throws.

I don't really have any preenvisioned scenarios in my head. Mostly for the fitness and skill, but have something I can actually use if I need to restrain or kick someone's ass.

I'm a skinny guy, 5'8" and 140 lbs. I think the hardest part is finding an instructor without having to drive 20 miles everyday...