At our monthly membership meeting this past weekend, our gun club brought to vote a member who was expelled for:

1. simulating full auto against club rules
2. threatening another member (the land owner who heard the rapid fire and came to check it out)
3. failing to present valid membership credentials on demand

The defendent stated he'd only owned a gun for several months and bought an AR15 after learning about them on AR15.com. He wanted to try bump firing after reading about it on here. He freaked out the land owner with the rapid fire and the guy went to investigate. When the guy arrived on the scene, the perpetrator supposedly threatened him with the gun and refused to show membership.

I just thought it was funny because when AR15.com was mentioned, the old farts all muttered about unsafe, militia freaks and their military guns.

Just thought I'd share what the local bolt gunner hilljacks think about you unsafe, unsporting black rifle owners.

Godd bless America and God Bless the NRA (because there's no rational sporting reason someone would want to own an AR15).

So do they know that they have an infiltrator in their midst?


You ARE going to do something about this group of biased old farts aren't you?   Persuade them that there are reasons for owning firearms other than simple target shooting and hunting, neither of which are mentioned in the 2nd Amendment.


Better yet, find one of the board members here on the forums that has an accurized AR15 space gun, then go put those old farts to shame when you outshoot every one of their bolt guns in terms of accuracy.

Better yet, have a woman do it!


I partially enjoy it when my AR15 gets the old farts all rialed up.   But the flip side of that coin is that it really tears me because I know they are those NRA members that don't support my right to own firearms.

Kalifornia mentioning rights to an Ohioan?

An Ohio range that isn't loaded with AR's?

I must be in the twilight zone...

Mugzilla, just cause I'm in Ca. doesn't mean I don't own my fair share of ARs :)
[url]http://home.bak.rr.com/varmintcong/main.html[/url]

It's just that here in Ca. I run into these types every so often.    But now that the rights have been stolen, I get a bit more respect as it's a tad more rare that you see somebody at the range with a nice collection of ARs.


I just get so burned by those idiots, sometimes if I swear that if I hear the phrase "those things have no sporting purpose" one more time I'll break my foot off in someone's ass.

That was me.  No kidding.

And I'd like to say this:  The rules say that full-auto guns are not allowed, nor are trigger devices that simulate full-auto.  I had neither.  I didn't do #1.
I NEVER threatened another member.  Not by any stretch of the imagination.  I didn't do #2.
I did do #3, and I feel like an idiot for it.

I was not able to go to the meeting, so I wrote up exactly what happened that day.  I may as well post it.  Here is the main part of what I wrote (next post):

No shit greenhorn... you were the perp? Holy shit! I didn't know you were actually a MEMBER on here!

They said the bump firing violated "the spirit of the rule" and the membership regs are being updated to reflect the prohibition of bump firing.

Email me. You should have been at that meeting. You not being there was probably the biggest strike against you.

[b]I forget the date, but sometime around the beginning of November I brought my older brother to the range to do some skeet shooting and target shooting.  We shot skeet for an hour or so, and then moved to the upper range at the 50-yard line.  Having learned about bump firing on several websites that I frequent including www.ar15.com, I naturally wanted to try it.  I had done it several days prior, and now, before target shooting, I wanted to show my brother.  I was planning on setting up paper targets afterwords to go target shooting.  This would have most likely been the last time I would have bump-fired, or at the very most the second to last time, because not only is it a waste of ammunition, it accomplishes nothing, and the enjoyment of it wears off rather quickly.  I walked approximately 25 yards from the backstop, loaded the rifle, and began bump-firing toward the dirt.  I walked that close to the backstop so that the mound was close enough that there was no chance of firing over it.  I made sure that all of the rounds landed into the middle of the hill.
After bump-firing a few times, the landowner, whom I do not know the name of, arrived in his red truck.  As I was putting the SAR-1 down (unloaded, magazine out, pointed downrange), he exited the truck and asked, “Do you have fully automatic weapons here?” He did not tell me who he was, and I figured that he was merely another member since I am used to members coming to me and asking me if I would mind if they went to the other range.  I had no idea that this was a serious question.  I expected that once I answered, he would simply ask if I minded and then leave.  I answered “no” matter-of-factly, assuming he was joking.  After all, what kind of idiot would bring an obviously illegal weapon to a shooting range?
It soon became apparent that he was not joking.  He asked me if I was a member, and I told him that I was, but had lost my badge a few days before.  I easily admit that I was incredibly stupid for coming without a badge.  I had no foresight, and frankly, no sense.  (Oh, by the way, I found it a few days ago. . .exasperated sigh)  He told me that he had heard automatic fire, and I told him that I was not firing an automatic weapon.  He told me that he knew what he heard, and when I tried to explain and tell him that I was only bump-firing, he continued to maintain that he knew what he heard.  I figured that he did not know what bump-firing was, so I tried to explain it, but he would not let me speak and told me again that he knew what he heard.  At this point I did not know that he was the landowner because he had not told me, and therefore he made me angry, because as far as I knew he had no more authority than a normal member, and therefore he should let me talk.  I was perhaps somewhat rude, but not even once did I use any profane at all or insult him, and not once did I even remotely threaten him, as I have been accused of.  The comments I made that I can remember were, “Listen, I’m not a criminal!” and “Please, just calm down.”  The last comment made him angry, and he repeatedly told me, “Don’t you f***ing tell me to chill the f*** out!”
Finally, he told me to demonstrate what I had been doing.  I picked up the rifle, and began showing him how bump-firing worked before actually demonstrating it.  I guess he took that as a stalling tactic or something, which makes sense, because later on when he had me demonstrate it to Barb and the sheriffs, he told me, “Now don’t you stall, just do it.”  Anyway, he ordered me to put the gun down, which I did, and he went to his truck and picked up his revolver and called the sheriff.  At this point I was horrified.  I did not know that he was the landowner, and here was a man with a pistol, obviously ready to use it.  I honestly feared for my life.  He never pointed the pistol at me and kept his finger off the trigger, but I had never been in a situation even remotely like that, and I had no idea how to react.  I was much too confused by the sudden barrage of new and very unpleasant experiences.  The worst trouble with the law I had ever gotten in before was getting pulled over and told that one of my headlights was out, unless it was the time I got a $10 parking ticket for not having a yellow tag on my rear-view mirror while my car was parked at Miami University Hamilton.  The idea of having a gun pulled on me was so foreign that it took a while for it to register completely.
He told me who he was and explained the politics surrounding the gun club and how my actions had the potential to damage the club, and explained to me that he has had to deal with people shooting over the backstop, shooting the shed, and stealing equipment, and was fed up with it.  I finally understood that he had a right to feel the way he did towards me, and I was sincerely apologetic.  Then he told me to demonstrate bump-firing.  After I demonstrated, he said something like, “Now what’s the point of that?  You’re not even shooting at a target.”  That comment made no sense to me, since one does not bump fire for accuracy.
Finally the sheriffs came, as did Barb Virag.  The sheriffs checked my ID and my brother’s ID, and checked my rifles to make certain they were unloaded and, presumably, to make certain they were not select-fire.  They were and weren’t, respectively.  They then talked with the landowner and Barb, during which time I thought about the situation and did a little crying to help get the flood of emotions out of my system.  I then was told to demonstrate bump-firing to the sherrifs and Barb who were not there the last time I had demonstrated it.  Soon the sheriffs left after determining that nothing illegal had happened, and after being told that I should attend the meeting on the third Monday of the month and that failure to do so would almost certainly result in the loss of my membership, we all left.
[/b]

Yep... that was you.

So I take it I lost my membership?

Did my letter get through?

I REALLY wanted to be at the meeting, but it was impossible.  If I had left earlier I would have stranded people there for many days, and I couldn't miss seeing my extended family whom I do not get to see more than a few times a year.

"Who Needs an AR15 to Go Duck-Hunting?"

"Who Needs a .50 Caliber to Go Rabbit-Hunting?"

"Who Needs a 1911 to Go Elk-Hunting?"

"Who Needs a Remington 870 to Go Deer-Hunting?"

"Who Needs a Remington 700 to Go Dove-Hunting?"


"Who Needs a Gun to Dial 911?"

Unfortunately, the vote was like 28 to 2. I was one of the 2. I explained to them that bump firing was NOT full auto. They didn't understand why someone would want to "waste all that durn ammo with such an unsafe technique". The letter was only marginally effective. The motion was brought to the floor that because you weren;t there in person, that spoke to your character.... blah blah blah...

Non paper targets are now also banned. No potatos, no pop cans, nada.

I'm working to get some more younger people and militaria guys involved. They used to have a great full auto weekend and even did a full auto walk in the woods shoot. I don't know when they turned all hardcore Nazi.

Sorry you had such a bad thing go down. I just moved back to Eaton from living in Cincinnati for 7 years. I used to be a member out there years ago and I rejoined. This was my first meeting back in the saddle. Hate to lose a 'good guy'.

You aren't even permitted back onto the property as a guest - per the land owner.


FWIW... we own 100+ acres near 732 off Concord Rd and Wyatt Rd intersection. one day next spring we can go out and bust some battle packs out at the farm.

Good luck changing their minds!  I have the same old fools at my club, in fact, the incident you described could have easily happened here.  Those old guys are mostly shotgunners and only tolerate the young upstarts with their black semiautos.  They seem to forget that they are the old guard and that there aren't too many young guys in the club to pick up the slack.  In fifteen years, there will be even fewer gun clubs because there aren't enough people to fill up the membership roster.  

The older guys all have an outdated notion that government is their protector and that just being loyal patriots is enough to ensure that things will be fine.  They truly believe in the system and seem to not realize that it's a whole new ballgame in this country--it's gun banning time, not just various restrictions.

Those older guys are probably worried about legal problems associated with bullets leaving the range area.  If just one house is struck by an errant round, you could lose your club for good.  

Bump firing is kind of stupid and irresponsible, anyways.

What's with all these neighbor idiots who are worried whether you have automatic weapons or not?  I thought CIII was legal in Ohio.

file a complaint against this 'land owner'.

brandishing a weapon / felony menancing

see a lawyer.

If there is anyone here who was at the first meeting, no offense, but during the first meeting I could seriously feel them looking at me like I was just a punk kid who doesn't care about gun safety.  They were all 50+; I'm 20.  I didn't have a chance, and I knew it at the first meeting.  Even though the only real rule I broke was that I didn't have my badge.  "breaking the spirit of the rule". . .that's what liberals do - "it's not what the constitution says, it's the spirit of it that's important, and we can interpret it how we want."

I realize that I shouldn't have bump-fired, but I still think that they treated me completly unfairly.

sounds like the next "rule" we be ni black rifles period. [:(]

My .02 worth FUCK EM!!!!!  Who needs to put up wih this kind of shit??

that landowner = a real jackass

Just read the new responses . . . thanks for your support.  I didn't realize before that there are different parties of gun-owners - democrat and republican.  I ignorantly figured that we were all on the same team.

Oh, and thanks for your vote, BenDover.

"I just thought it was funny because when AR15.com was mentioned, the old farts all muttered about unsafe, militia freaks and their military guns."

Are these old farts anything like the old fart on another topic who shoot a horse with a little girl on it cuz it looked like a deer?[rolleyes]
Sounds like the NRA.

we're not, sadly.

I sent mail to the NRA, trying to convince them that this is where they/we need to start (getting all owners under the same roof), that and ZERO tolerance to illegal attacks on the RKBA.

The land owner has a reputation for being hot headed. I don't know the guy personally, but he's got a reputation.

The crones were all over me because I suggested any sort of defense to the deal. I am pretty wired politically in the city and county, so they really don't mess with me.

I don't think any of the board members frequent this site. They know I am a moderator and active here.

The St. Clair guys are stuck in 1953 and all think the only reason to own a gun is for sport. Fortunately, time is on our side as "whippersnappers" and they don't have as much as we do.

If you're down in Oxford, Fairfield Gun club isn't that far from you... heck neither is Middletown sportsmans club.

My bro-in law was the other vote.

Quite frankly Greenhorn, I would recommend that you press charges against the landowner for assaulting you with a firearm.  It doesn't matter that he did not point it directly at you; he brandished it in your presence in a threatening manner after behaving irrationally(based on your account you obviously felt in fear for your life.)  Based on your actions, and the fact that he apparently was not in fear of you (he asked you to pick up your rifle and demonstrate bump-firing), he had no business behaving that way.

Hey, it may never make it to trial, but you can always offer a deal.  The club drops its expulsion effort, you don't have the landowner charged with a felony.

It will never make it out of the County prosecutors office. That was discussed. It's pretty much a word against word in a good ol' boy county. They agreed to not pursue charges against greenhorn if the club handled it on their own. Kind of a railroad job the other way.

Unfortunately, this all happened prior to my having reinstated my membership. Otherwise, I may have been able to influence the situation somewhat.

Forget getting reinstated. But if you have a valid legal beef with the landowner - have at it.

One at least one occasion I elected not to join a range beacause I could see this kinda crap coming. (Not to mention they had no place to shoot prone. Period. This is a major warning sign that you're dealing with a bunch of box a year deer hunters and trap shooters.)

Suprising to hear some of them have heard of the internet at all, it sounds like.  

If they are so arrogant as to think that not appearing is a sign of bad character, I'm not sure i'd want to associate with them.  Then again, Mugzilla might not think I'm qualified to comment on the matter cuz I live in kali.  

Charges against me?  They actually commented on that?  WHAT CHARGES???  I did nothing even remotely illegal!

I know I'm preaching to the choir, but I just needed to say that.

You know what, finding out the truth about all these people who run the "gun club" makes me feel better about losing my membership.  They don't deserve my money.  They're nazis.  Maybe now that I'm not a member I should send them a letter and not sugarcoat it.  I won't insult or slander, but I won't hold anything back.  Should I?

Yeah, not much different at one of the clubs around here.

I enjoy going there to shoot, and there are one or two people there who actually enjoy loading more than one round at a time into a black rifle but the old guard is not amused.

(Although no one could explain to me why loading three rounds in a 20" rifle shot from a benchrest is more dangerous than 10 rounds in a pistol shot standing up 18" from your neighbour)

Damn I'll be glad when I go home to Alabama for Christmas and can go full auto in the backyard until my hands get sore....sigh....

GH, what you did was probably stupid and disrespectful but it's not like a capital crime or anything. Talk about over-reaction on the part of the club and the landowner.

Oh well, find a more conducive place to shooting. You'll be better off in the end.

"The land owner has a reputation for being hot headed."

You know what? That guy REALLY scared me.  Every word was said angerily, and he has a POWERFUL voice.  I really thought he was going to shoot me, he was THAT ANGRY.  No exaggeration.  It looked like he had lost self-control.

"GH, what you did was probably stupid and disrespectful"

Hey, no arguement there.  I'd omit that sixth word though.

Have at it. Whatta ya got to lose at this point?

The only reason I am a member is because I do need a place to sight my scopes and such and dont always feel like driving out to the farm... plus we're getting my 8 y.o. nephew involved in Jr. CMP. Other than that... I got 100 acres to blast away at whatever I want to.

I will never attend a single event (okay, maybe a tactical or two run by a friend J.D. Farquahr)

FYI... the land owner supposedly recently shot out the back windshield of a vandal kid's truck who took out his mailbox. Deadly force for vandalism.

Yeah, I've met John many times when I do the tactical shootings and such.  He's seems like a pretty nice, level-headed guy.

Edited to add:
"FYI... the land owner supposedly recently shot out the back windshield of a vandal kid's truck who took out his mailbox. Deadly force for vandalism."

Holy crap. . .Now I am scared.  Maybe my fear was completly reasonable. . .I've been trying to convince myself otherwise.

I used to beat up his step son every day after school. [:D] It was a neighborhood thing. All in good fun. J.D. is a good cat.

EDITED TO ADD: Oh yeah... the story about shooting the truck came from a very respected businessowner here in town, so I can believe it at least 75% to be true. Apparently he went before the judge over it but there was no penalty. Yer talkin' bout' Preble County naw yah hear.

Join Middletown Sportsman's club. That's where I go.  No range officers...people tend to watch each other.  Don't even need to pick up your casings if you dont want to...it's like their gravel there.  I have never had a problem.

Do they allow shooting of non-paper targets?  Do they allow bump-firing?

I looked at the range locator on NRA.org, and they're not listed.  Do they have a website?

Plant some fired bullets a mile away and complain to the news media that the range is a danger to the public.

[whacko]

Do you just have a weird sense of humor or are you a DU mole?

[>:/]

If nothing else they need to give you some of your membership money back.  I would be pressing charges on old man river if I were you.  Do it before he does kill someone.  Dont roll over and let these old folk give it to you.

Reading all this makes me wonder about the majority of gun owners/hunters. I now understand why there are so many gun owners and a disproportionate number of people actively fighting for our rights. I was in a gun club and they all seem to be bunch of old backwards-thinking farts like I have seen described here. There was a land owner behind our club complaining of bullets landing on thier property, these land owners came to a meeting and were treated horribly, I was embarrassed and quit the club. Even if these people's gripe was not legit, they should have at least been treated professionally. Most of these "old farts" know only one way of thinking, "theirs" and it is usually based on theories conjured up by sub 80 IQ minds. They don't even know why a gun is "accurt" (accurate) it is funny to listen to thier non-sense, and they view you as a communist if you intervene with any type of intelligent reasoning. The fight rests firmly on our shoulders.

If he's the landowner, he should have stated that fact immediately. The guy sounds like a true, dyed-in-the-wool, bald-headed-with-no-teeth, banjo-playing bumpkin. Fuck him, and his pussified "gun club". Except for Bendover and greenhorn, they all sound like a bunch of pansies you're better off without.

I'm confused. Who owns the land? The gun club, or the guy who threatened GreenHorn? If he donated the land to the gun club, he is just a member there, like everyone else. Brandishing in a threatening way is definately not a good thing for one member to do to another.....

Scott

You think I am kidding? If I paid for a membership to a range and they pulled that bullshit with me, including the "landowner" with the history of irrationality committing an ADW, I would make sure the place gets shut down.

I would also file requests to the county demanding that an Environmental Impact Report from the range to address any groundwater contamination issues.

You normally won't catch me saying this, but if you can't press charges for the brandishing because of being in a good 'ole boy county, try suing the bastard (conjure up one of those "emotional damage" lawyers and have at it) and possibly the club (get your membership dues/fees back....ALL OF IT, not just a partial pro-rated amount).

FOTBR

Well first of all, that would be dishonest, and who knows, I may even get in deep crap for it, and second of all, [sarcasm]that would really help the pro-gun movement.[/sarcasm]


[b]You normally won't catch me saying this, but if you can't press charges for the brandishing because of being in a good 'ole boy county, try suing the bastard (conjure up one of those "emotional damage" lawyers and have at it) and possibly the club (get your membership dues/fees back....ALL OF IT, not just a partial pro-rated amount).[/b]

I have no experience with lawyers or anything, and all I've given them for my membership is something like $25.

[b]I'm confused. Who owns the land? The gun club, or the guy who threatened GreenHorn? If he donated the land to the gun club, he is just a member there, like everyone else. Brandishing in a threatening way is definately not a good thing for one member to do to another.....[/b]

I don't know the arrangement.  All I know is that Barb Virag is the president, and that guy is the landowner, and they both are members.

Hey, thats a good one!  All that lead can't be good for the ground and groundwater, not to mention all the animals that might eventually eat plants with an elevated lead content.

FOTBR

(oh shit, did I just agree with Imbro? [:D])

Sorry you don't have a place too shoot Greenhorn.

All I can say is Fuck em!

These are the sorta AssClowns that allow division in our ranks so the anti's can clean us off piecemeal.

These frumpy fuckers have their heads so far up their arsses that they can't see we all have the same interests at heart,and would throw out one of their own.....What a joke!

I hope BenDover can effect alittle change from the inside.

GH, yes, that would be dishonest, BUT, his brandishing in a threatening manner is something that you *should* be able to press charges on;  it sounds like the local justice system leaves a lot to be desired, so I was suggesting an option (granted, a not-very-nice one, which is why I usually don't suggest suing anyone for anything except legit medical bills resulting from negligance)

If the dues are so low (I figured they'd be a bit higher) you may not feel like messing with it, but I would try to get the money back just out of principal -- they kicked you out for doing nothing agains the rules, ergo, unfairly; therefore they shouldn't get to keep your money.

Just my $.02, feel free to disregard it.

What happened does suck major monkeyballs, and I'm sorry to say that this division of gun-owners isn't exactly new, either.

FOTBR

Greenhorn got totally screwed on this and its pure BS.  But as for pressing charges, if that guy IS the actual owner of the land, it'll never fly.  Not to say that legally he couldn't (Im not familiar with OH law on protecting one's own "home"), but it'd never make it past the local prosecutor.  Given todays political climate, imagine this case in court.  Old boy's attorney would make the case that, here he is, a little old man on [b]his own[/b] property confronting one of those "militia-types" with his AK47 "assault rifle" who was simulating fully automatic fire.  No matter what a collosal assmunch this guy was, he could make the case that [b]he[/b] was intimidated.  Welcome to the politics of law.  Greenhorn, this sucks for you homie.  I feel for you man.

"a little old man on his own property"

That happens to be used as a gun club

If GH felt threatened by the landowners actions, (a landowner who didn't identify himself as such, btw) then the brandishing should not be considered "okay".  I'm not familiar with OH law, but here, that stuff wouldn't fly, regardless of the reason.

I know we're only seeing one side of the story here, but it seems to be confirmed as pretty much the truth of the matter.  If the landowner was yelling and pulling out his gun and obviously agitated, I too would feel rather threatened, even if I was holding one of my "evil" rifles, and especially if I'd already set the rifle down and was trying to explain something.

I think we both agree that what happened was not good, and that GH got screwed.  

I don't feel like arguing here, so I'll just repeat my $.02 and say that I'd try to press the charges, on the off chance it might stick, and I'd try to get all of my money back because of the principle of getting kicked out for doing nothing "wrong".  You're not me, and neither of us is GH, so the most we can really do is just hope for the best for him, offer advice, and let him make his own decisions.  If GH doesn't want to do anything more about it (But your letter thing is a good idea, GH, I say let 'em have it!) then thats his decision to make.

FOTBR out.

Makes me angry just reading about it.  I may actually like anti-gunners better than these backstabbing bastard range nazi types...

[b]NO RANGE FOR YOU!!!!![/b]

Scott

You have a hell of a lot more restraint than I do.  They would still be operating on the land owner's asshole to get that revolver out.  First person who pulls a gun on me gets shot, period.