Psychopolitics and Gun Control - Page 9

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Posted: 8/30/2004 2:34:41 PM EDT

[#1]

Da, Comrade.

Posted: 8/30/2004 2:39:37 PM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:
frdmftr1 = Imbroglio ?

Yep!

Posted: 8/30/2004 3:09:57 PM EDT

[#3]

Is this turd still swirling in the bowl?

This guy is so obviously Imbroglio it's funny. I recognized his writing stype almost right away.

And you guys are still arguing with him!

Either it's Imbroglio or this guy needs to have a major league time out. I'm betting Imbroglio because of the way he kept cutting and pasting from the web site.

Hey frntrfckr1, what do you think of ATM fees? How do like having to pay someone to get your own money out of a bank???

Posted: 8/30/2004 3:14:05 PM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:
<snip>

Hey frntrfckr1, what do you think of ATM fees? How do like having to pay someone to get your own money out of a bank???

Don't forget abou the mind control rays that come from the screen of the atm, and the fingerprint collection on the keypad, and the hidden cameras, and the retinal scan..... ATMs were one of our best innovations, don't you think?

Posted: 8/30/2004 3:23:02 PM EDT

[#5]

Central party said so

Quoted:
Quoted:

В дохристианскую эпоху, то есть почти до конца Х в., в среде восточных славян (предков современных русских, украинцев и белорусов) использовались только личные имена, которые давались детям при рождении. Это были языческие славянские имена, в целом ясные по значению и этимологически очевидные. Как и повсюду в славянском мире, большинство имен представляло собой так называемые двухосновные, или сложные имена, состоящие из двух корней, связанных соединительным гласным. Вторыми элементами этих имен, как правило, были -слав 'славный' (Ярослав 'сильный и славный'), -мир, от -мър 'большой, славный' (Остромир 'острый и славный'), или -волод 'владеющий, богатый' (Всеволод 'все и владеющий').

К славянским именам прибавилось несколько скандинавских имен(1) , привнесенных в период язычества викингами-завоевателями, как, например, Рюрик (Hrorekr), Олег (Helgi 'святой'), Игорь (Ingvar 'молодой'), Глеб (Gudlleifr, эквивалент нем. Gottlieb, Рогволод (Rag (n) valdr).

Единственным языческим именем тюркского происхождения было, вероятно, имя Борис, от протоболгарского Богорис, если это не аббревиатура имени Борислав.

После христианизации Руси в 988 г. каждый восточный славянин получал от священника крестильное имя. Крестильные имена соответствовали именам святых и были, следовательно, обычными христианскими именами.

Однако эти имена не славянского, а греческого происхождения. К восточным славянам они пришли из Византии через Болгарию, где христианство было принято еще раньше, в 865 г. Македонский диалект болгарского языка, возведенный в IX в. святыми Кириллом и Мефодием в ранг языка церковного ритуала, стал с этого времени языком религии всех православных славян. Этот язык известен как старославянский, а примерно с XII в.— как церковнославянский. Таким образом, византийские имена, которые могли быть греческого, древнееврейского или латинского происхождения, распространились в церковнославянской форме среди восточных славян(2). Большинство крестильных имен распространялось также в народной, мирской форме, которая слабо отличалась от официальной церковнославянской. Эта народная форма, обязанная своим возникновением либо а) естественному искажению официальной формы восточными славянами, либо б) прямому заимствованию разговорной болгарской формы (которая сама основывалась на разговорной средневековой греческой форме), избежала вмешательства церкви и ее языкового посредника — церковнославянского языка. Имя, данное при крещении, обозначалось в древнерусском словом имя.

Практика давать ребенку в дополнение к официальному крестильному имени еще одно, некрестильное, тем не менее удерживалась вплоть до XVII в. В древнерусском для обозначения внутрисемейных обиходных прозваний сначала использовалось выражение мирское имя в противоположность слову имя, обозначавшему подлинное имя, полученное при крещении. Но вскоре термин мирское имя был вытеснен термином прозвище. Другие древнерусские термины, например, прозвание или прирок, употреблялись довольно редко.

В ономастических и исторических работах часто встречается термин некалендарное имя. Он означает имя, которое нельзя найти в церковном календаре, где значились лишь христианские имена, то есть имена святых православной церкви. Естественно, в древнюю эпоху этот термин никогда не использовался русскими. Первым текстом, о котором достоверно известно, что он был написан на Руси, было Евангелие, переписанное в 1056—1057 гг. для новгородского посадника, который в приписке был обозначен в крьщении Иосиф, а мирьскы Остромиръ. Если крестильное имя было обязательным, поскольку крестили каждого ребенка, то прозвище не являлось обязательным, и форма его полностью зависела от родителей. И все же большинство детей нарекалось, по-видимому, двумя именами. В тех случаях, когда оба имени соотносились с одним лицом, первым всегда называлось крестильное(3)

После XVII в. прозвища в России уже не сохранились. За немногими исключениями исчезли также древние языческие славянские и скандинавские имена. Эти имена могли стать крестильными только в том случае, если принадлежали святым, признанным православной церковью. В XI—XII вв. к лику святых было причислено несколько князей. Все они были канонизированы под христианскими, то есть греческими именами: Владимир как Василий, Борис как Роман, Глеб как Давид (все трое умерли в 1015 г.), Всеволод как Гавриил (умер в 1138 г.), Игорь как Георгий (умер в 1147 г.). Любопытно, однако, что их христианские имена были забыты, и сейчас они известны как святые только под языческими именами. Произошло это довольно скоро. Уже в середине XI в. св. Владимир/Василий приводится церковью как Владимир. У великого князя смоленского Мстислава Романовича (ум. в 1223 г.) было христианское имя Борис.

Позже церковь признала и четыре других славянских имени — Ярослав, Мстислав, Ростислав и Святослав, хотя эти имена никогда не давались святым даже в качестве второго имени. Впоследствии еще два имени были приняты церковью: одно славянское — Вячеслав, русский эквивалент имени чешского святого Х в. Вацлава (Vaclav, Venceslas), и одно скандинавское — Олег, хотя никогда не было святого с таким именем. Кроме этих исключений, вся русская официальная роспись имен была церковнославянской, то есть византийско-греческой по происхождению.(4)

В России долгое время имя человеку могла дать только церковь(5), лишь в 1905 г. эта прерогатива церкви была несколько ослаблена. С 1917 г. стало возможным называть ребенка любым именем без каких бы то ни было ограничений. Но этот последний период уже не имеет отношения к становлению русских фамилий.

Дохристианские славянские двухосновные имена, фигурировавшие в ранний период русской истории, после принятия христианства стали употребляться параллельно. Этот тип имен за редким исключением имел отношение только к князьям, и поэтому часто назывался княжое имя. Та же судьба оказалась и у нескольких скандинавских имен. В целом же в XIV в. ни одна из этих категорий не сохранилась.

Уменьшительные формы древнеславянских имен, например, Добрыня, Добрило (от Доброслав или Доброгость), Путило (от Путислав), Жидята (от Жидислав) и т.д., имели, по-видимому, большую популярность и соответственно шире использовались, чем полные имена. Они в значительной мере сохранились, объединившись с одноосновными именами, представленными широким рядом нарицательных существительных и прилагательных, запас которых всегда неисчерпаем. Использование этих вторых имен позволяло выделить индивида в постоянно растущей массе носителей одинаковых крестильных имен из-за ограниченного числа последних.

Вторым именем могло стать прозвище, данное не только родителями, но и соседями или даже индивидом самому себе. Существенное различие между крестильными и всеми другими именами состоит в том, что крестильное имя служило только одной цели — обеспечить человека личным именем. Это имя присваивалось ему священником во время официальной церемонии крещения. Прочие имена давались уже неофициально, без церемоний, либо родителями, либо соседями(6). Крестильные имена были обязательны и численно ограничены, тогда как остальные имена основывались лишь на традиции и число их практически могло быть безграничным. Среди последних могут быть четко выделены две группы: имена по профессии и по месту жительства. Все прочие имена такого типа определяются в настоящей книге как прозвища, причем в этот термин вкладывается скорее негативный смысл. Конечно, в широком смысле любое некрестильное имя может рассматриваться как прозвище, но в данной книге оно ограничено указанным выше значением.

Итак, согласно древнерусскому традиционному способу именования, почти у каждого русского могло быть два имени — крестильное и/или второе имя, которое могло быть самого разного происхождения, а по форме — существительным или прилагательным.

Однако более специфическая система именования получалась путем добавления имени отца, то есть патронима, к христианскому (крестильному) имени или ко второму имени, либо к тому и другому вместе.

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Комментарии
(1) Выражение "к славянским именам прибавилось несколько скандинавских имен" не правильно отражает ситуацию. В действительности скандинавские имена были весьма популярны среди членов княжеских семейств и княжеских дружин. Едва ли в ситуации русского Х в. можно определить этническую принадлежность человека по его имени: вполне допустимо считать, что скандинавские имена могли принадлежать и не собственно скандинавам, т.е. что выбор имени определялся скорее социально, чем этнически. Если уж среди "прибавившихся" скандинавских имен называть Рюрика, то нельзя не назвать Синеуса и Трувора, братьев Рюрика, а также Аскольда и Дира, приближенных Рюрика ("не племене его, нъ болярина" — "Повесть временных лет"). Договор с греками 912 г. заключили послы князя Олега: Актеву, Верьмуд, Гуды, Ингельд, Карлы, Карн, Лидуль, Руалд, Рулав, Рюар, Стемид, Труан, Фарлоф, Фост, Фрелав. Договор с греками 945 г. заключен послами князя Игоря и членами его семьи. Имена послов: Алвад, Воист, Вуефаст, Грим, Егри, Ивор, Искусев, Каницар, Каршев, Кары, Кол, Либиар, Мутур, Слуды, Стегги, Студько (?), Улеб. Фруди, Шибрид, Шихберн. Имена членов княжеской семьи: Акун, Алдан, Аминд, Берн, Воик, Гунар, Гуд. Ерлиск, Етон, Клек, Сфирка, Тудор, Тулб, Турд, Ута, Фост. Имена купцов, принявших участие в заключении договора: Адулб, Адун, Алдан, Апубькарь, Бруны, Вузьлев, Гомол, Гунастр, Емиг, Иггивлад, Иггелд, Куци, Моны, Олеб, Роалд, Руалд, два Свена, Синко, Стир, Стен, Тилии, Турбен, два Турберна, Турбрид, Улеб, Фур. В числе заключивших договор имеются также и носители имен иранского происхождения (К а l m у k о w. Iranians and Slavs in South Russia. - Journal of the American Oriental Society, vol. 45, 1925, с. 68-71; 3 а л и з н я к А. А. Проблемы славяно-иранских отношений древнейшего периода. — Вопросы славянского языкознания. Вып. 6. M., 1962, с. 44): Истр, Прастен (трижды), Сфандра, Фрастен, Фрутан. Имя Ятвяг, фигурирующее в списке послов, вероятно, балтийского происхождения (о возможных славянских именах в этом списке см. Соловьев А. В. Заметки о договорах Руси с Греками. M., 1938, с. 409, о возможных славянских, половецких, литовских, еврейских и немецких именах. - Б а р а ц Г. M. Критико-сравнительный анализ договоров Руси с Византией. Киев, 1910, с. 64). Летопись свидетельствует, что среди лиц, заключивших договор, были христиане: "Мы же, елико нас крьстилися есмы" или "от людии Русьскыхъ, ли хрьстиян или не хрьстиян" ("русские люди" - это именно послы: "мы от рода Русьского", - говорят они о себе). Возникает вопрос, были ли в этом списке имен крестильные имена варягов-христиан, или это были только языческие имена, или, наконец, бывшие в посольстве христиане названы некрестильными именами? Если среди перечисленных имен были имена, под которыми были крещены исповедовавшие христианство участники посольства, то это были далеко не типичные календарные имена, во всяком случае, не имена восточных (православных) месяцесловов. С другой стороны, те скандинавские и вообще западные имена, которые как имена чтимых святых обнаруживаются в некоторых древнерусских молитвах, пришедших после христианизации Руси, по-видимому, от западных славян, явным образом вне этих молитв не засвидетельствованы. Наконец, начиная со Святослава, у князей и их роственников явно возникает мода (или иной вид потребности) на имена славянского происхождения, тогда как скандинавские имена, по крайней мере в древнерусских источниках, сходят на нет, остаются только освященные традицией Олег и Игорь: имя Рогволод, с одной стороны, принадлежит, как и Асмуд и Свенельд "кормилец" и воевода Святослава, к уходящей традиции (ср. борьбу Рогволода с Владимиром), а с другой - относится к таким именам, которые допускали осмысление и на славянской языковой почве; неясными исключениями остаются только имена Жьдеберн, Глеб. После христианизации Руси при Владимире на передний план выдвигаются имена из греческих месяцесловов. При сопоставлении этих фактов напрашивается вывод,что смена скандинавских имен на "греческие" обозначала (если сравнивать ситуации 945 г. и после 988 г.) смену религиозной ориентации от периферийно-западного к типично восточному христианству. Точно так же и смена скандинавских княжеских имен, начиная со Святослава, на славянские могла отражать, с одной стороны, эпоху "языческой реакции", а с другой - начало политики ассимиляции "рода русьского" местному славянскому населению. Княжеские имена этого времени, по-видимому, имели способность интерпретироваться сразу и на славянской и на скандинавской языковой почве. Так, имя Святослав, по остроумной догадке А. М. Членова, может быть, являлось исключительно удачно подобранным композитом из славянских соответствий скандинавских имен Helgi 'святой, освященный' и Hrorekr 'могучий славой, славный' (Членов А. М. К вопросу об имени Святослава. - Личные имена в прошлом, настоящем и будущем. Проблемы антропонимики. М., 1970, с. 327). Имена Владимир - Valdamarr, Ярослав - Jarizleifr, Борис (возможно также Брячислав, Болеслав) - Bwizlafr, Володарь - Valadr, Вьсеволод - Visivaldr, и т.д. тоже, вероятно, ощущались как имеющие достаточно прозрачную внутреннюю форму как для древних русских (т.е. славян), так и для древних скандинавов.

Точно так же в двух кодах могли, по-видимому, читаться и христианские имена, ср. Якоун (которое можно было бы рассматривать как производное от Иаков, Яков) - Hakon, Африкан — Afreki (Браун Ф. А. Фриад и Шимон, сыновья варяжского князя Африкана. - Известия Отделения русск. языка и словесности имп. Академии Наук. Т. 7. вып. 1, СПб., 1902, с. 359-365; Р г i t s a k O. The Origin of Rus'. Vol. 1. Cambridge, Mass., 1981, с. 416-418).

Скандинавские источники сохранили свидетельство о том, что русские князья по-прежнему могли иметь скандинавские имена, функционировавшие, вероятно, не как крестильные или, может быть, употреблявшиеся только в общении со скандинавами. Так, сын Ярослава Мудрого (вероятно, Изяслав, ср. Р г i t s а k О. Ор. cit., с. 403) по "Саге об Олафе святом" имел имя Holti, не имеющее соответствия в древнерусском, при том, что его братья - Valdamarr и Vissivaldr - имеют имена с легко угадываемыми соответствиями (ср. Стурлусои С. Круг земной. М., 1980, с. 2 35). вернуться

(2) Наряду с церковнославянскими именами греческого, латинского и еврейского происхождения следует указать еще на имена германского (Олег, Глеб, Ольга; в некоторых древнерусских молитвах, вероятно, западнославянского происхождения встречались еще Канут, Олаф, Ботулф (ср. Соболевский А. И. Материалы и исследования в области славянской филологии и археологии. Русские молитвы с упоминанием западных святых. - Сборник Отд. русск. языка и словесности имп. Академии Наук, XXXVIII, № 3, СПб., 1910)), тюркского (Борис, Боян) и собственно славянского происхождения (точнее, южнославянского, т.е. имеющие черты южнославянской морфонологии, типа неполногласия в имени Владимир). вернуться

(3) Наблюдаются случаи, когда "мирское" имя предшествует крестильному, ср. Чернова Мавра, Упрям Иван (В е с е л о в с к и и С. Б. Ономастикон. М., 1974, с. 351, 332). вернуться

(4) Следует отметить, что когда при крещении давалось то или иное имя, то подразумевалось, что святой - носитель этого имени становится покровителем крещаемого. К этому святому полагалось обратиться священнику в молитве, завершающей чин крещения. Стало быть, наречение при крещении именами Ярослав, Мстислав, Ростислав, Святослав, Олег должно свидетельствовать о наличии в месяцесловах соответствующих святых (надо сказать, что такие святые не обязательно могли почитаться на всей территории Древней Руси; были и так называемые "местночтимые" святые, культ которых ограничивался отдельными княжествами, городами и даже монастырями). Так, имени Мстислав соответствовал святой благоверный князь Мстислав Храбрый (в крещении Георгий, ум. в 1180 г.). В оказавшихся доступными месяцесловах (по-видимому, ими же располагал и Б. О. Унбегаун) имен Ярослав и Святослав нет, но по вышеизложенным соображениям следует предполагать, что есть месяцесловы (хотя бы местного значения), где встречаются такие имена. Заметим попутно, что в сборнике "Богословские труды", вып. 28 (М., 1987) воспроизведена икона святого благоверного князя Ярослава Владимировича.

К числу названных Б. О. Унбегауном славянских (по национальности носителя, но не всегда по происхождению) имен святых следует добавить имена: Боян (мученик, князь Болгарский, ум. ок. 830 г.), Владислав (благоверный князь Сербский, ум. в 1239 г.), Горазд (равноапостольный, епископ Моравский, ученик св. Мефодия, просветителя славян, ум. ок. 886 г.), Изяслав (благоверный князь, ум. в 1165 г.), Кукша (преподобный священномученик, монах Киево-Печерского монастыря, жил в XII в.), Ярополк (благоверный князь Ярополк Изяславич Владимиро-Волынский, в крещении Петр, ум. в 1086 г.). вернуться

(5) Выражение "имя человеку могла дать только церковь" следует понимать в том смысле, что 1) наречение каноническим именем православного христианина являлось сакральным актом, соотнесенным с таинством крещения и обставленным вполне определенным ритуалом и 2) каноническое имя определялось по святцам. Новорожденный должен был получить имя того святого, который поминался в день рождения ребенка. Более архаическая практика, сохранившаяся у старообрядцев, состояла в том, что мальчикам давалось имя святого, поминавшегося на восьмой день после рождения ребенка, а девочкам давалось имя святой, чье поминание приходилось на восьмой день от рождения девочки при отсчете назад. Имя при этом в принципе не выбиралось, а устанавливалось, в частности, затем, чтобы имена всех святых были равноправны: "а по прихотямъ родителевымъ изъ иныхъ чиселъ имянъ не избирати бъ, дабы всъхъ святых имена в преэренiи не были б" (И. П о с о ш к о в. Завещание отеческое). При этом установление имени воспринималось как нечто фатальное и потому имя преподобного могло означать счастье для новорожденного, а имя мученика - несчастье (Успенский Б. А. Мена имен в России в исторической и семиотической перспективе. - Уч. зап. Тартуского Гос. Университета. Вып. 284 (Труды по знаковым системам, вып. V). Тарту, 1971, с. 488, 489). Следует подчеркнуть, что такая практика установления имен, строго говоря, не была ни канонически обязательной, ни всеобщей. Скорее ее следует рассматривать как благочестивый обычай, который соблюдался более или менее строго только в низких и средних слоях общества. Указывая на 1905 г., Б. О. Унбегаун имеет в виду законодательство о веротерпимости, связанное с событиями 1905 г., не оказавшее, кстати сказать, практически никакого влияния на способ выбора и присвоения имен новорожденным. вернуться

(6) О церемониях при наречении новорожденному мирского имени у русских действительно ничего неизвестно, но судя по тому, что получение ребенком по достижении трех или семи лет нового имени сопровождалось специальным обрядом, связанным, в частности, с первым пострижением волос (см. Успенский Б. А. Мена имен в России в исторической и семиотической перспективе, с. 489), можно заключить, что и наречение первого имени было обставлено каким-то ритуалом. Следы "охранительной" (профилактической) и апотропеической магии и, следовательно, определенных ритуальных действий можно, по мнению А. М. Селищева, усматривать в ряде самих мирских имен, таких, как Найден, Продан, Краден, Куплен, Ненаш, отражающих обрядовую имитацию находки, продажи, купли, т.е. подмены новорожденного (см. Селищев А.М. Указ. соч.) вернуться

отрывок из первой главы книги Б.О.Унбегауна "Русские фамилии"
с комментариями А.А.Архипова

That's clever, but what makes you think it'll work?

Posted: 8/30/2004 3:51:24 PM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:
Quoted:
<snip>

Hey frntrfckr1, what do you think of ATM fees? How do like having to pay someone to get your own money out of a bank???

Don't forget abou the mind control rays that come from the screen of the atm, and the fingerprint collection on the keypad, and the hidden cameras, and the retinal scan..... ATMs were one of our best innovations, don't you think?

Dah dah, comrade!!!! The flounder whistles at midnight!

Posted: 8/30/2004 3:52:42 PM EDT

[#7]

I haven't read any of this thread, but I want to go on the record to admit to it all. Every single bit.

Do I win a prize?

Posted: 8/30/2004 3:54:18 PM EDT

[#8]

"The flounder whistles at midnight!"
Vey Very funny.
Worth reading seventeen pages to see.

Posted: 8/30/2004 5:51:24 PM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:
"The flounder whistles at midnight!"
Vey Very funny.
Worth reading seventeen pages to see.

The pleasure you take in that post is a fluke. DigDug needs to learn his plaice. He posts garbage like that purely for the halibut. That kind of attention seeking chills my sole. I personally think he is a provaca turbot you may disagree.

Posted: 8/30/2004 6:19:44 PM EDT

[#10]

God I love this place....

Posted: 8/30/2004 6:23:47 PM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:
tag since i got to get my ass to class and i dont have to right now to read 16 pages.

You'll laugh

You'll cry

You'll hurl

You'll have to learn Russian....

Posted: 8/30/2004 6:23:48 PM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:
Quoted:
"The flounder whistles at midnight!"
Vey Very funny.
Worth reading seventeen pages to see.

The pleasure you take in that post is a fluke. DigDug needs to learn his plaice. He posts garbage like that purely for the halibut. That kind of attention seeking chills my sole. I personally think he is a provaca turbot you may disagree.

That's the kind of wit that's missing from modern discourse these days.

With linguistic cunning like that, it is easy to see how you became such an accomplished psychopolitician !

Posted: 8/30/2004 6:27:10 PM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
"The flounder whistles at midnight!"
Vey Very funny.
Worth reading seventeen pages to see.

The pleasure you take in that post is a fluke. DigDug needs to learn his plaice. He posts garbage like that purely for the halibut. That kind of attention seeking chills my sole. I personally think he is a provaca turbot you may disagree.

That's the kind of wit that's missing from modern discourse these days.

With linguistic cunning like that, it is easy to see how you became such an accomplished psychopolitician !

This whole line of thought is giving this psychopolitician a haddock....

Posted: 8/30/2004 6:33:16 PM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
"The flounder whistles at midnight!"
Vey Very funny.
Worth reading seventeen pages to see.

The pleasure you take in that post is a fluke. DigDug needs to learn his plaice. He posts garbage like that purely for the halibut. That kind of attention seeking chills my sole. I personally think he is a provaca turbot you may disagree.

That's the kind of wit that's missing from modern discourse these days.

With linguistic cunning like that, it is easy to see how you became such an accomplished psychopolitician !

FLAL1A is sucking up to the boss! Man, I'll never get to move up in the hierarchy.

I don't think Donald is going to show tonight. Probably cross-posting to all the militia websites he links.

Anyway, goodnight all. This psychopolitician has to get some sleep so I can get my four week old when he wakes up in a few hours. Confuse the masses without me.

Posted: 8/30/2004 6:54:35 PM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
"The flounder whistles at midnight!"
Vey Very funny.
Worth reading seventeen pages to see.

The pleasure you take in that post is a fluke. DigDug needs to learn his plaice. He posts garbage like that purely for the halibut. That kind of attention seeking chills my sole. I personally think he is a provaca turbot you may disagree.

That's the kind of wit that's missing from modern discourse these days.

With linguistic cunning like that, it is easy to see how you became such an accomplished psychopolitician !

Cunnilingus what?

Posted: 8/30/2004 6:55:45 PM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:
Quoted:
That's the kind of wit that's missing from modern discourse these days.

With linguistic cunning like that, it is easy to see how you became such an accomplished psychopolitician !

Cunnilingus what?

I knew that was coming (no pun intended) - I just didn't who it would be!

Posted: 8/30/2004 6:57:20 PM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
That's the kind of wit that's missing from modern discourse these days.

With linguistic cunning like that, it is easy to see how you became such an accomplished psychopolitician !

Cunnilingus what?

I knew that was coming (no pun intended) - I just didn't who it would be!

That is why you are the master orator!

Posted: 8/30/2004 7:42:34 PM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:
Quoted:
tag since i got to get my ass to class and i dont have to right now to read 16 pages.

You'll laugh

You'll cry

You'll hurl

You'll have to learn Russian....

and ill get to be the first to post this

Posted: 8/30/2004 10:34:18 PM EDT

[#19]

...

edited to remove photo, and say.

Your right The pic is in poor taste, as well as the haircut

Posted: 8/31/2004 5:30:28 AM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:
Quoted:
<snip>

Hey frntrfckr1, what do you think of ATM fees? How do like having to pay someone to get your own money out of a bank???

Don't forget abou the mind control rays that come from the screen of the atm, and the fingerprint collection on the keypad, and the hidden cameras, and the retinal scan..... ATMs were one of our best innovations, don't you think?

Dang it Cat_aclysm there is a reason that stuff was marked TOP SECRET when we sent it to you. How is it you never get into trouble for giving this stuff away? I mean Manuel and Pablo never gave up serect info they just kept a little to much money from their fundraising efforts and look what happened to them.

Posted: 8/31/2004 5:43:12 AM EDT

[#21]

Wow 17 pages....never would have thought that this crackpot would have gotten 17 pages of replies...

Posted: 8/31/2004 5:46:26 AM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:
Wow 17 pages....never would have thought that this crackpot would have gotten 17 pages of replies...

By now it is just us talking to ourselves. The FreedomFighter has not said a peep for the last four pages.

The Psychopoliticians have silenced another voice of dissent. Good work comrades.

Posted: 8/31/2004 6:53:11 AM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Wow 17 pages....never would have thought that this crackpot would have gotten 17 pages of replies...

By now it is just us talking to ourselves. The FreedomFighter has not said a peep for the last four pages.

The Psychopoliticians have silenced another voice of dissent. Good work comrades.

Yes...they have...now to capture him and implant the tracking/mind control chip...

Posted: 8/31/2004 6:55:30 AM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:
Your right I am not a gun owner...

img.photobucket.com/albums/v295/Rick357/Punksmall2.jpg

Go back to the DU forum!

Nice empty gun.......

Posted: 8/31/2004 6:59:00 AM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Your right I am not a gun owner...

img.photobucket.com/albums/v295/Rick357/Punksmall2.jpg

Go back to the DU forum!

Nice empty gun.......

Nice hair cut...

Posted: 8/31/2004 6:59:25 AM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Wow 17 pages....never would have thought that this crackpot would have gotten 17 pages of replies...

By now it is just us talking to ourselves. The FreedomFighter has not said a peep for the last four pages.

The Psychopoliticians have silenced another voice of dissent. Good work comrades.

Yes...they have...now to capture him and implant the tracking/mind control chip...

The only question is do we use the prototype chip gun or do we go old school and stage an "abduction" Roswell style?

Posted: 8/31/2004 7:08:09 AM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Wow 17 pages....never would have thought that this crackpot would have gotten 17 pages of replies...

By now it is just us talking to ourselves. The FreedomFighter has not said a peep for the last four pages.

The Psychopoliticians have silenced another voice of dissent. Good work comrades.

Yes...they have...now to capture him and implant the tracking/mind control chip...

The only question is do we use the prototype chip gun or do we go old school and stage an "abduction" Roswell style?

Roswell....that will take care of 2 conspiracies....then we can begin the final completion of the plan to take over the banking system....

Posted: 8/31/2004 7:17:50 AM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Wow 17 pages....never would have thought that this crackpot would have gotten 17 pages of replies...

By now it is just us talking to ourselves. The FreedomFighter has not said a peep for the last four pages.

The Psychopoliticians have silenced another voice of dissent. Good work comrades.

Yes...they have...now to capture him and implant the tracking/mind control chip...

The only question is do we use the prototype chip gun or do we go old school and stage an "abduction" Roswell style?

Roswell....that will take care of 2 conspiracies....then we can begin the final completion of the plan to take over the banking system....

Sounds good.

Who's paying for this one, re-education division, or should we call it a training op so "they" can get a little more experiance and take it out of the training budget? The new group has been doing alright in training exercises in house, perhaps it's time "they" get a real world training op.

Oh ya no black helecopters on this one too.

Posted: 8/31/2004 7:30:19 AM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:
Your right I am not a gun owner...

img.photobucket.com/albums/v295/Rick357/Punksmall2.jpg

Go back to the DU forum!

Rick, you can't win with a pic like that. If the gun is not loaded, you will be made fun of for pointing an empty gun. If the gun is loaded, you will be ridiculed for being unsafe.

Posted: 8/31/2004 7:34:27 AM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Your right I am not a gun owner...

img.photobucket.com/albums/v295/Rick357/Punksmall2.jpg

Go back to the DU forum!

Rick, you can't win with a pic like that. If the gun is not loaded, you will be made fun of for pointing an empty gun. If the gun is loaded, you will be ridiculed for being unsafe.

Na ya just put the disclamer on it that it was shot with a timer or remote, loaded or unloaded if yer willing to take the potential risk of destroying your camera, what business is it of anyone else as long as no one living was behind the camera.
Of course I would never do that as my camera cost me $2,200. And the lens on it is another $1,500.(and people wondr why I will risk packing some heat when I take night pics on the lakefront)

Posted: 8/31/2004 8:42:06 AM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Wow 17 pages....never would have thought that this crackpot would have gotten 17 pages of replies...

By now it is just us talking to ourselves. The FreedomFighter has not said a peep for the last four pages.

The Psychopoliticians have silenced another voice of dissent. Good work comrades.

Yes...they have...now to capture him and implant the tracking/mind control chip...

The only question is do we use the prototype chip gun or do we go old school and stage an "abduction" Roswell style?

Roswell....that will take care of 2 conspiracies....then we can begin the final completion of the plan to take over the banking system....

Sounds good.

Who's paying for this one, re-education division, or should we call it a training op so "they" can get a little more experiance and take it out of the training budget? The new group has been doing alright in training exercises in house, perhaps it's time "they" get a real world training op.

Oh ya no black helecopters on this one too.

We can use the new group, it's nice to get them real world training...however let's run this through the R&D budget...use the account that we use to test new drugs on the homeless with the "Soup Kitchen" unit...

I agree, no helos on this on....but lets use the box vans...they are good for geting rid of the trouble makers...

Now that we have successfully changed the format at MTV, we can move on to mainstream media...the Trends and Intentions groups will have a field day with that...

Posted: 8/31/2004 8:51:27 AM EDT

[#32]

I cannot beleive this thread is still going....I'm guessing we have entered "No Troll" territory by now....

Another mission completed successfully - I love it when a plan comes together

Posted: 8/31/2004 9:02:20 AM EDT

[#33]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Wow 17 pages....never would have thought that this crackpot would have gotten 17 pages of replies...

By now it is just us talking to ourselves. The FreedomFighter has not said a peep for the last four pages.

The Psychopoliticians have silenced another voice of dissent. Good work comrades.

Yes...they have...now to capture him and implant the tracking/mind control chip...

The only question is do we use the prototype chip gun or do we go old school and stage an "abduction" Roswell style?

Roswell....that will take care of 2 conspiracies....then we can begin the final completion of the plan to take over the banking system....

Sounds good.

Who's paying for this one, re-education division, or should we call it a training op so "they" can get a little more experiance and take it out of the training budget? The new group has been doing alright in training exercises in house, perhaps it's time "they" get a real world training op.

Oh ya no black helecopters on this one too.

We can use the new group, it's nice to get them real world training...however let's run this through the R&D budget...use the account that we use to test new drugs on the homeless with the "Soup Kitchen" unit...

I agree, no helos on this on....but lets use the box vans...they are good for geting rid of the trouble makers...

Now that we have successfully changed the format at MTV, we can move on to mainstream media...the Trends and Intentions groups will have a field day with that...

Everything sounds good to me. Lets do it.

I don't know about that MTV thing. From the reaction to comrade Kerry's daughters at that award show I don't think we have gotten into the heads of enough young impressionable Americans yet. We may need to do more with the MTV thing.

Posted: 8/31/2004 9:29:01 AM EDT

[#34]

Wow!
I tried, I REALLY, REALLY tried to read ALL of the posts in this thread before I put my 2 cents in, but unfortunately I'm at work and my constant (and very loud) laughing is starting to annoy my co-workers so I just had to stop.

I do have a question for the obviously superior frdmftr1 though.
I saw somewhere down there in all the Bs flying through this thread that you thanked someone for their "thoughtful" comments and then berated your chosen list of communists for not doing the same. Let me just ask the obvious.

What the hell kind of response did you expect when you come in here and accuse 48 specific names (people I might add) of being communists?

Now for me personally I stopped reading your super list right after DK-Prof. In other words the first name on it. My apologies go out to the rest of you as I didn't take the time to acknowledge the rest of the distinguished list. After seeing that name I knew the list was BS anyway, so there was no point in reading the rest. In fact, didn't even bother to see if I was on it.

Simply because these folks don't agree with your opinions (and quite frankly who would?) they are communists? Wow! I've just had an epiphany! The whole sight is FULL of people just like this fabulous list! We must ALL be communists craftily desguising ourselves as freedom lovers.

Are you out of tinfoil this week or something? Wow!

Posted: 8/31/2004 11:44:14 AM EDT

[#35]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Wow 17 pages....never would have thought that this crackpot would have gotten 17 pages of replies...

By now it is just us talking to ourselves. The FreedomFighter has not said a peep for the last four pages.

The Psychopoliticians have silenced another voice of dissent. Good work comrades.

Yes...they have...now to capture him and implant the tracking/mind control chip...

The only question is do we use the prototype chip gun or do we go old school and stage an "abduction" Roswell style?

Roswell....that will take care of 2 conspiracies....then we can begin the final completion of the plan to take over the banking system....

Sounds good.

Who's paying for this one, re-education division, or should we call it a training op so "they" can get a little more experiance and take it out of the training budget? The new group has been doing alright in training exercises in house, perhaps it's time "they" get a real world training op.

Oh ya no black helecopters on this one too.

We can use the new group, it's nice to get them real world training...however let's run this through the R&D budget...use the account that we use to test new drugs on the homeless with the "Soup Kitchen" unit...

I agree, no helos on this on....but lets use the box vans...they are good for geting rid of the trouble makers...

Now that we have successfully changed the format at MTV, we can move on to mainstream media...the Trends and Intentions groups will have a field day with that...

Everything sounds good to me. Lets do it.

I don't know about that MTV thing. From the reaction to comrade Kerry's daughters at that award show I don't think we have gotten into the heads of enough young impressionable Americans yet. We may need to do more with the MTV thing.

Agreed...this is Code Worded-"Tin Foil"....Go Code is"Anal Probe"....

To all units-

The Chair is against the wall

The litter box is full

I have boil on my ass

Posted: 8/31/2004 12:12:29 PM EDT

[#36]

BigDozer66

Posted: 8/31/2004 1:08:49 PM EDT

[#37]

It's dead, Jim.

Posted: 8/31/2004 1:22:14 PM EDT

[#38]

Quoted:
It's dead, Jim.

Oh, no. Say it ain't so!

Posted: 8/31/2004 1:26:44 PM EDT

[#39]

Quoted:
It's dead, Jim.

So I guess all us secretly paid communist psychopoliticians SUCEEDED in driving off that valiant freedom fighter who might otherwise have exposed all of our grand conspiracies.

Victory is ours!!

Posted: 8/31/2004 1:44:29 PM EDT

[#40]

Oh no! I may never get that promotion. Does this mean I could be stuck at #48 forever? Last place sucks

Posted: 8/31/2004 3:32:40 PM EDT

[#41]

Quoted:
Beria's Psychopolitics

The biggest threat against American liberty in the history of our planet, now a million times more dangerous with the instant communications of the Internet. Psychopoliticians and their Dupes have now infested every newsgroup and every bulletin board and every forum on the Internet having anything to do with political liberties. They lie, they ridicule, they impugn, they heckle, they cheat, they demand answers to irrelevant questions and keep on demanding after the answers are given; they bog down the debate or discussion in minutiae; they engage in flame wars; they do whatever is necessary to derail any serious discussion or debate not in accordance with the communist agenda, and drive away the participants. They are trained to do this. When the participants don't realize they are being suckered they get disgusted, they lose interest, and they leave with a bad taste in their mouth, and the communist agenda is the only agenda left.

The communist agenda is, by the way, an anti-gun agenda, regardless of what the Psychopoliticians may claim. Remember, under Psychopolitics, the truth is whatever advances the communist agenda or allows it to be advanced. All else is peccadillo and/or a threat to the agenda, and must be ridiculed, harassed, and heckled out of existence.

Unfortunately, AR15.com is as infested with Psychopoliticians, their programmed Dupes, and their unwitting Disciples as the rest of the Internet. Two recent message threads on the General Discussion forum were perfectly legitimate issues gun owners should know about for their own safety and protection of their rights. They were legitimate existing issues describing how gun owners are at risk of losing their right to keep and bear arms (or illustrating how gun owners can be their own worst enemy when it comes to protecting their rights) but they were posted as bait to bring out the cockroaches. They were descended upon by 48 screen names whose only purpose in being there was to harass, malign, ridicule, and use up so much bandwidth with their garbage that the few legitimate posters gave up in disgust and left. Now, I said "48 screen names" because one of the techniques of Psychopoliticians is to log on under 4, 5, or even 10 or 15 screen names so as to give the impression that the majority of people on the board thought the subject matter was ridiculous. In actual fact, there probably wasn't more than half a dozen actual Psychopoliticians, perhaps not more than half that -- they get paid to do this and they can afford to do it full-time, and their efforts are orchestrated and paid for by communist cells, anti-liberty political factions, sometimes covert U.S. government agencies, and quite often agents of foreign governments. I have previously exposed agents of Canada, Japan, and the British Commonwealth using Psychopolitics against those who believe in the right to keep and bear arms on various newsgroups, always presenting themselves as ordinary grass-roots folk who were expressing their personal opinions from widely separated countries in the world. This was right after the Dunblane, Scotland massacre, and it turned out all three of them were working out of an office in Toronto trying to establish grass roots support for the U.N. Treaty on the Proliferation of Small Arms supported by Canada and Japan. They were frauds, and all Psychopoliticians are frauds.

There is a defense: Don't leave, and don't get suckered! If you have a contribution, or want to ask a question, present it to the forum or to an individual in the forum. The Psychopolitician is a cockroach; absolutely ignore him and get on with the legitimate discussion. How do you recognize a Psychopolitican when you see or hear his comments? It is simple: The most common sign is the frequent use of buzzwords related to "mental healing". Words and phrases like "delusional", "paranoid", "mentally ill", "Get medical help", "take your meds"; etc., whether applied to you or someone else. Now, sometimes these words and phrases are used by some inarticulate twerp who never outgrew the high school bully phase. He heard someone else use them and thought they were a magnificent put-down. If so, the same rule applies: Ignore him, or at the most, ask him once if he is a Psychopolitician or a Psychopolitician's Dupe. If he indicates unfamiliarity with the term, send him to Google for a search on the word "Psychopolitics". If he doesn't answer at all, or repeats his ridicule, put him in your "Ignore" file and get on with the discussion.

The use of psychobabble is not the only sign of a Psychopolitician, but it is the most common because the entire scam is based upon a fraudulent claim to superior psychological knowledge. Other indicators are a failure to address issues, relying instead on argument by ridicule, impugning the integrity of other participants, focusing on some irrelevant side issue and tying up bandwidth demanding irrelevant answers -- basically, any discussion or debating technique that stalls the discussion/debate and tries to keep it stalled rather than allowing it to move forward.

This is a warning to legitimate gun owners and friends of the liberties our nation was founded to protect. Your liberties are under attack by the most depraved, craven, desperate savages on the planet. Do not let them interfere with your discussions and debates; do not let them drive you away. If you believe in the right to keep and bear arms, you have a right to be here and say your piece without interference. They are not harmless or insignificant in the real world; they are known to use drugs and other techniques to destroy their opponents by making them insane and then murdering them, and this is one of the techniques described in the Soviet textbook on brainwashing -- click on the link at the top of this page or do a Google search on "Psychopolitics". But the advantage of the Internet is its anonymity, even though it allows brainless cretins to mouth off without getting a six-inch revolver barrel-sized lump on their forehead. Do not be afraid of these twerps: Just ignore them and get on with your discussions.

Here is a list of the screen names that attacked the two posts mentioned above without any significant discussion, and/or without reading the issues on the table before expressing their conclusions. At least one of them is clearly a trained Psychopolitician (possibly three of them), and a professional shrink to boot, claims to be a firearm collector in his bio, but Psychopoliticians will lie like a rug if necessary to gain credence. Two or three of the others are either programmed Dupes of Psychopoliticians or alternate screen names of the main character. The majority of the rest are either untrained "Disciples" of the Psychopolitical techniques; i.e., intellectual retards who never got beyond the high school bully phase of their development and think Psychopolitical techniques are a magnificent way of putting people down for the fun of it, or they, too, are alternate screen names of the professionals.

DK-Prof, Shivan, FLAL1A, PAEBR332, MrClean4Hire, Hiram Ranger, neilft, madmedic, Q3131A, 95thFoot, Hydguy, DigDug, SNorman, VTH0KIESHOOTER, Cyrax777, Dino, hielo, BayEagle, Johninaustin, geekdude, Rick357, Stove_Pipe, AlphaBob RI, Old_Painless, long-rifle-tactical, thelastgunslinger, Lumpy196, Chrome1, Alien, gus, Da_Bunny, AZMAN-1, mattja, nOvAgATOR, photoman, Sgtar15, Mahatma8Rice, USMC2111, Balzac72, Planerench, RikWriter, DScott, -Absolut-, Slash-5, napalm, 4get_No1.

Don't let these screen names or anyone else use Psychopolitics to drive you away from a discussion you find of interest.

Cocaine is a powerful drug!

Posted: 8/31/2004 9:02:56 PM EDT

[#42]

A little background…

I’ve been passionately fighting for the right to keep and bear arms almost 46 years. I’m somewhat interested in, but not passionate about, hunting or target shooting or reloading or firearm collecting. I’ve done them all and enjoyed them, but I have many, many interests I am a lot more passionate about. One of them is the political right to keep and bear arms, for this is the source of all other rights which too many of us take too much for granted: The Magna Carta, for example, would not have been signed were it not for the right of the barons to keep and bear arms: King John signed it at sword point, thus for the first time officially establishing the right of the people to keep and bear arms in defense of their liberties from tyranny and oppression. The American Revolution depended upon the private right to keep and bear arms. The list goes on and on.

My fight for this right has caused me to speak before high school and college groups – before high schools and colleges slammed the door on that one out of “political correctness”. I have written letters to the editor, not only to local papers in the various places where I have lived, but to newspapers around the nation and even a few overseas, when some anti-gun article was published there and brought to my attention. I have attended rallies, written to and spoken before city councils, state legislators, Congressmen and Senators (not at Congressional hearings, unfortunately). I have even purchased a copy of Innocents Betrayed, the video by Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership and arranged for Arizona State legislators to view it. Several found the time in their busy schedules, and viewed the video, and were horrified. I have challenged newspaper reporters in public for reporting that 30 pro-gun people showed up at a city council meeting when in fact over six hundred showed up and it was standing-room only in a Civic Center Auditorium (Sunnyvale, California). I was a major fighter, writer, and voter register in the California fight to stop Proposition 15 which would have severely restricted the right to keep and bear arms in California. We won, and then the gun owner’s went back to sleep and the measure passed quietly a year or so later.

I am a dues-paying member of Gun Owner’s of America (GOA), and The Citizen’s Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms (CCRKBA), and Jews for the Preservation of Firearms’ Ownership (JPFO), and a supporter of the Neal Knox report, and a Life Member of the NRA (which I became before I discovered how often the NRA sells one or more rights hoping to barter back an increment of the right to keep and bear arms). I think there are a couple more I pay dues to, but I can’t think of them at the moment.

I don’t say all this to toot my own horn or claim some special status among you, far from it. I don’t need your recognition because I don’t do what I do for you. I do it for my country and for future generations. I do it because I lived in Australia four years, and I learned what it means to be an American. I do it because I have an obligation to earn the right to live in a free country. No, I say all this just so you will realize I am not some wide-eyed neophyte, or some sophomoric newcomer who thinks he has discovered original sin. I’ve been at this for a long time, and over that period of time it has become clear to me that what gun-owners there are in this fight – yes, you guys – are quite often their own worst enemy when it comes to defending their right to keep and bear arms.

During the years I have been at this, those who wish to ban all firearms in private hands have been my most serious detractors. They are well-versed – extremely well-versed – in the Soviet-developed art and science of argument by ridicule, by claiming that “mental health” is only valid if you are on the same page of their agenda that they are. Knowing how people in the thirties and forties were terrified of “insanity”, they developed – actually that murderer Beria developed – a methodology of argument that immediately, without any preliminaries at all, raised the spectre of mental illness and applied it to anyone who failed to agree with the commie agenda. I’ve dealt with these people for a long time. I have dealt with that commie method of argument for a long time; I have become very thick-skinned and fairly adept at ignoring it and presenting my case in spite of it. But sooner or later, 90% of the messages are Psychopolitics and only 10% have anything to do with the subject under discussion. That is exactly what the Psychopol strives for – that is, for example, exactly what DK-Prof has striven for without fail on this thread and the previous threads, and he ALWAYS finishes his attacks with the Psychopol mantra: “Go get medical help” or some equivalent. Why you tolerate him and for God’s sake even emulate him is beyond any rational understanding; he is a programmed twerp without redeeming value.

I’ve been fighting Commies who have used these techniques for forty years or more. I consider these techniques to violate every known parameter of fair play, respect for the views of another, manners, integrity, respect for truth – in fact, if you read Beria’s textbook you find that respect for truth is not a factor at all; he says in several places that what you are saying doesn’t have to be true because the purpose is to discredit and destroy your enemy, not disprove his thesis.

Then I come here and I find putative gun owners doing the same thing as the gun-banners have been doing for forty years, and basically attempting to destroy an argument without hearing it, without researching it, without even considering it, as though I brought up some reason to ban guns instead of an argument to make against banning guns. If you aren’t fighting for a Communist agenda, why do you use Communist techniques of argumentation? If you are going to exhibit a total lack of integrity, then you can’t blame someone for believing you have no integrity. But you continue on, more interested in the applause meter from the cheering section than you are in protecting the right to keep and bear arms. I hope you all have fun sitting around passing out awards to each other while your firearms are being confiscated.

Well, you guys have had a lot of fun in these threads, but you have no interest and no clue on how to preserve and protect our right to keep and bear arms, or even how to meet your fellow man on even terms based upon some understanding of integrity. For that reason I have no use for you and I have no interest in associating with you. There is only about four of you who have outgrown the mentality of a high school bully, and those four are welcome to discuss matters by private email if desired. I’ll go on fighting for the right to keep and bear arms on my own as I have for roughly 46 years, but it will be a cold day in Hell before I will try to work with a bunch of Neanderthals like this bunch again. Too bad; you guys are going to lose the right for all of us because you are too busy have some kind of cruel “fun” than you are protecting the right to keep and bear arms – I know that if I was ever polled for my thoughts on the character of gun owners, I’d really have to say I haven’t seen much of it lately.

Posted: 8/31/2004 9:07:29 PM EDT

[#43]

Im still trying to decide how you determined I'M a communist dupe....

Posted: 8/31/2004 10:22:47 PM EDT

[#44]

Quoted:
A little background…

I’ve been passionately fighting for the right to keep and bear arms almost 46 years. I’m somewhat interested in, but not passionate about, hunting or target shooting or reloading or firearm collecting. I’ve done them all and enjoyed them, but I have many, many interests I am a lot more passionate about. One of them is the political right to keep and bear arms, for this is the source of all other rights which too many of us take too much for granted: The Magna Carta, for example, would not have been signed were it not for the right of the barons to keep and bear arms: King John signed it at sword point, thus for the first time officially establishing the right of the people to keep and bear arms in defense of their liberties from tyranny and oppression. The American Revolution depended upon the private right to keep and bear arms. The list goes on and on.

My fight for this right has caused me to speak before high school and college groups – before high schools and colleges slammed the door on that one out of “political correctness”. I have written letters to the editor, not only to local papers in the various places where I have lived, but to newspapers around the nation and even a few overseas, when some anti-gun article was published there and brought to my attention. I have attended rallies, written to and spoken before city councils, state legislators, Congressmen and Senators (not at Congressional hearings, unfortunately). I have even purchased a copy of Innocents Betrayed, the video by Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership and arranged for Arizona State legislators to view it. Several found the time in their busy schedules, and viewed the video, and were horrified. I have challenged newspaper reporters in public for reporting that 30 pro-gun people showed up at a city council meeting when in fact over six hundred showed up and it was standing-room only in a Civic Center Auditorium (Sunnyvale, California). I was a major fighter, writer, and voter register in the California fight to stop Proposition 15 which would have severely restricted the right to keep and bear arms in California. We won, and then the gun owner’s went back to sleep and the measure passed quietly a year or so later.

I am a dues-paying member of Gun Owner’s of America (GOA), and The Citizen’s Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms (CCRKBA), and Jews for the Preservation of Firearms’ Ownership (JPFO), and a supporter of the Neal Knox report, and a Life Member of the NRA (which I became before I discovered how often the NRA sells one or more rights hoping to barter back an increment of the right to keep and bear arms). I think there are a couple more I pay dues to, but I can’t think of them at the moment.

I don’t say all this to toot my own horn or claim some special status among you, far from it. I don’t need your recognition because I don’t do what I do for you. I do it for my country and for future generations. I do it because I lived in Australia four years, and I learned what it means to be an American. I do it because I have an obligation to earn the right to live in a free country. No, I say all this just so you will realize I am not some wide-eyed neophyte, or some sophomoric newcomer who thinks he has discovered original sin. I’ve been at this for a long time, and over that period of time it has become clear to me that what gun-owners there are in this fight – yes, you guys – are quite often their own worst enemy when it comes to defending their right to keep and bear arms.

During the years I have been at this, those who wish to ban all firearms in private hands have been my most serious detractors. They are well-versed – extremely well-versed – in the Soviet-developed art and science of argument by ridicule, by claiming that “mental health” is only valid if you are on the same page of their agenda that they are. Knowing how people in the thirties and forties were terrified of “insanity”, they developed – actually that murderer Beria developed – a methodology of argument that immediately, without any preliminaries at all, raised the spectre of mental illness and applied it to anyone who failed to agree with the commie agenda. I’ve dealt with these people for a long time. I have dealt with that commie method of argument for a long time; I have become very thick-skinned and fairly adept at ignoring it and presenting my case in spite of it. But sooner or later, 90% of the messages are Psychopolitics and only 10% have anything to do with the subject under discussion. That is exactly what the Psychopol strives for – that is, for example, exactly what DK-Prof has striven for without fail on this thread and the previous threads, and he ALWAYS finishes his attacks with the Psychopol mantra: “Go get medical help” or some equivalent. Why you tolerate him and for God’s sake even emulate him is beyond any rational understanding; he is a programmed twerp without redeeming value.

I’ve been fighting Commies who have used these techniques for forty years or more. I consider these techniques to violate every known parameter of fair play, respect for the views of another, manners, integrity, respect for truth – in fact, if you read Beria’s textbook you find that respect for truth is not a factor at all; he says in several places that what you are saying doesn’t have to be true because the purpose is to discredit and destroy your enemy, not disprove his thesis.

Then I come here and I find putative gun owners doing the same thing as the gun-banners have been doing for forty years, and basically attempting to destroy an argument without hearing it, without researching it, without even considering it, as though I brought up some reason to ban guns instead of an argument to make against banning guns. If you aren’t fighting for a Communist agenda, why do you use Communist techniques of argumentation? If you are going to exhibit a total lack of integrity, then you can’t blame someone for believing you have no integrity. But you continue on, more interested in the applause meter from the cheering section than you are in protecting the right to keep and bear arms. I hope you all have fun sitting around passing out awards to each other while your firearms are being confiscated.

Well, you guys have had a lot of fun in these threads, but you have no interest and no clue on how to preserve and protect our right to keep and bear arms, or even how to meet your fellow man on even terms based upon some understanding of integrity. For that reason I have no use for you and I have no interest in associating with you. There is only about four of you who have outgrown the mentality of a high school bully, and those four are welcome to discuss matters by private email if desired. I’ll go on fighting for the right to keep and bear arms on my own as I have for roughly 46 years, but it will be a cold day in Hell before I will try to work with a bunch of Neanderthals like this bunch again. Too bad; you guys are going to lose the right for all of us because you are too busy have some kind of cruel “fun” than you are protecting the right to keep and bear arms – I know that if I was ever polled for my thoughts on the character of gun owners, I’d really have to say I haven’t seen much of it lately.

'

I see where you are coming from and that is wonderful. Good for you for being politically active in gun ownership! As for you calling people that are fellow gun owners and advocates for the second ammendment, Communists! That I do not agree with, Psychobabble or what ever aside, you have no Idea who, I am, or for what I stand. Therefore by me not agreeing with you banter about banks not cashing my checks because "I am a gun owner" makes me a communist! Well I am sorry SIR (and I use that term loosely in regards to ignorance such as this) but my family has fought and died for my freedoms. I am far from a communist, and trust me, it will be a cold day in Hell before anyone takes my rights away from me. I believe the term is "cold dead hands" . Good for you working for so many years to prevent the removal of guns from responsible owners. I respect that, but I do not respect anyone who drives a splint inside the gun community by naming some of the most political members "communist" . By your actions at this point to me you are the traitor and the "splitter" it seems all you have been doing on this board is trolling! Good Day Sir!

Posted: 8/31/2004 10:48:22 PM EDT

[#45]

Thank you frdmftr1for cntinuing to give us gun owners a bad name, ~~one post~~ hundreds of posts at a time. You come here claiming a great conspiracy against us, but can give no proof other than your opinion ( based on your inabillity to associate with society). Next time someone thinks that myself or others here are "Nuts" or "Crazy Militia types" because we own guns I know I can thank you for that steriotype. The rest of us will continue to support groups such as the NRA and GOA, JFPO, etc. Thank you frdmftr1 for your time.

ps. I still don't use direct deposit and cash my check without thumb prints or fees. The problem you have is your own, not ours.

Posted: 9/1/2004 3:27:49 AM EDT

[#46]

frdmftr1 - Take my case for example. Your initial post re: tyranny was made in a manner consistant with an endless stream of trolls and infiltrators we have endured in the past, most of them anti-gun and some of more of a racist/skinhead origin. I made ONE joke and you call me a Communist? For crying out loud, what do you expect? Of COURSE from that point on, I'm certain you're a fringe weirdo. Maybe you're just too enthusiastic, and maybe a tiny bit misguided.
Look, preaching at a group of shooters and gun owners as if they are ignorant children will most certainly offend them. That is what happened here. Of course, being a group of largely aggressive, independant minded, and already opinionated alpha-males, these guys will attack when they sense they are being belittled or manipulated.
Personally, I think you have some valid points. I also think you have taken some of them far over the top. That's my opinion, and you have yours.
This is not an apology, and please do not remove me from your "list". I'm rather proud of the company I've been associated with!

Posted: 9/1/2004 7:20:31 AM EDT

[#47]

I think you are an unmitigated nutbag.

That said, I would submit that based on my statement above, you most likely do more harm than good in your fight to defend the 2nd Amendment. I think that the majority of the members of this forum are committed and well-equipped mentally, financially and politically to defend our freedoms.

Do us all a favor and find a new cause; like banking reform, or defending the rights of the mentally ill, or opening up a chain of nursing homes for the aging Cold War victims of the "Commies" such as yourself.

Posted: 9/1/2004 10:52:18 AM EDT

[#48]

OK, then. Maybe it's time to wrap this LONG, meandering thread up.
There's been charges, allegations, shots back and forth, so I reckon score's mostly even.

A few thoughts...

FF1 could be a little nuts. Unproveable by any hard standard from where we all sit, on the far side of a monitor.

OTOH, he could be quite sane, and trying to do us all a service by alerting us to circumstances of which some of us may be unaware. Again, not proveable.

Now, had FF1 taken the time to establish a persona on the board, and interacted with the membership during that time, we all might be in a better position to evaluate both him and his allegations. For reasons known only to FF1, he did not do so. His not seeing fit to allow us, the members to become acquainted with him does his cause and himself no small harm. One might believe one's best friend if he made an extraordinary claim; it is doubtful if one would begin to believe a stranger.
Despite FF1's providing us with an interesting, if unverifiable firearms-only-related autobiography, we are left, finally, with only his extraordinary allegations, which, to paraphrase Carl Sagan, require extraordinary proof. That is unlikely to be forthcoming, if we take FF1 at his word, and he departs.

Of course, there is another, sinister possibility.

Let us suppose that this board's influence and political sophistication had garnered the attention of the Communist gun-grabbers of which FF1 warned us.
Let us further suppose that FF1 was one of them, heart and soul. His mission on this board might have to been to post here about Beria's Psychopolitical tactics in such a wild, breathless way as to innoculate the board against believing either Psychopolitics and/or the Communist menace even existed.
Whether or not he wishes it, he's now percieved by at least a significant portion of this board as being, well, a bit "off". His credibility may be questioned by some.
Thus the existence and use of Psychopolitics, et.al., will be disbelieved. Could be the reason why he posted here in the first place. That would certainly explain why he did not attempt to establish any bona fides prior to making his allegations. If he HAD done so, a few, perhaps more might have given his words some serious consideration. As it is, the next time anyone hears about Psychopolitics, they will probably have a good laugh.

Sound far-fetched? Maybe.

Posted: 9/1/2004 11:45:23 AM EDT

[#49]

We're coming for you next Raf.

Posted: 9/1/2004 12:35:59 PM EDT

[#50]

Quoted:
Now, had FF1 taken the time to establish a persona on the board, and interacted with the membership during that time, we all might be in a better position to evaluate both him and his allegations.

Dude, he is one of the most established persona's on the board: Imbroglio

In this thread (1 of 3 he has started), he states:

Quoted:
Not post number one. I was here three years or so ago and I posted a lot, and I think I left because I was so disappointed with the lack of interest in or understanding of liberty and rights among the gun owners here.

He has started three topics all shit sturrers:
1. Corporations have no rights
2. There is a Tyranny Sneaking Up On You
3. Psychopolitics and Gun Control

He scores a 5 out of 5 on the troll scale:

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Psychopolitics and Gun Control (Page 9 of 10)

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