mini-guns and SAW or how much Napalm can you buy for $12,000

Quoted: Quoted: Go old school!!! 3-4" Fire hoses and tons of water! Quoted: 4 x 3 man teams with 2" fire hoses 95-125 gpm.  Works great to keep the crowds at bay.   The hoses of legend were either 2 1/2" or 3" hoses with smooth bore nozzles. Aim for the legs.

umm 11/2" or 2" at most.  You ever tried to control or move a charged 2" fire hose ?

And I would use the inch and a half to spread AFFF  (polyethylene oxide works pretty well to but the AFFF is a NSN item and you should be able to get it from the Navy fairly quickly) well and thoroughly on the perimeter approaches.  Rioters that can't stand can't charge.

How much time do you have to prepare? light steel cable stretched between available poles at about 30" up slows down a crowd or forces many between the poles and buildings.  Most rioters don't show up with bolt cutters  Can you spread concertina?

Your ROE are going to depend on who/what protecting.  Put jersey barriers out.  Can you put them out and use them as your direct perimeter?  Put your guys behind a barrier like that and the crowd will have a hell of a time moving them back.  Anybody that stands on top gets a quick blow to the nuts , anybody that gets over can get pushed back over easily.  Plus they can't move or throw the barrier.

Lots of gas.

Quoted: 12 pump shotguns; model unimportant; Mossberg 590 w/bayonets ; no ammunition required The sound of the slides racking will send any rioter fleeing in fear and if they're deaf, the sight of the bayonet will do the same

Lets see....

Romy kit build AKM-$200 per man, then $1300 in mags and ammo.

1 death is a tragedy, 10,000 is a statistic.

Ring the place with highway flares and pump diesel through the lawn sprinkler system.  A couple of shotguns to handle the highly motivated, well lit barracade crashers.  Sit back and drink iced tea.

What about some M1 Carbines or AK's ?  Those can be had for fairly cheap at times.  Cheapest way to get armor is if you can come up with mil-surp stuff somehow.  For sidearms, I have to second the Sigmas, perhaps some Rugers, even.  Not really a cheaper sidearm out there than those two.  The only thing that would really be more economical would be something like a Makarov, and I can see why there may be some reservations about using those.  

Barricades, personal protective equipment (helmet shild bodyarmor) and billyclubs for non-lethal.  You are kinda boned if a real mob overwhelms your position.  If that's a possibility you need to go lethal.

12ga shotguns loaded with #4 and dragons breath if you can still get ahold of it.

Make sure they have somewhere to escape to.

Quoted: umm 11/2" or 2" at most.  You ever tried to control or move a charged 2" fire hose ?

In a word?

Yes.

You'll get a lot more "bang for the buck" with a solid bore tip on a deuce and a half manned by 3 guys with hose straps. I've used 2 1/2" as an attack line several times - including once on a multiple occupancy 3rd alarm fire before we were pulled out. The four of us on the inside knocked down a sh*t load of fire. It was several hours later before they rooms reignited (after we had gone "D"), and we let it burn under orders.

The smoothbore deuce is your friend. Lower nozzle pressure w/ more GPM  = less beatin' the crew.

The "Lines of legend"  I referred to were the ones in pulitzer pictures being used on the freedom marchers in Alabama and Mississippi during the '60's. If you're defending a fixed position it's a lot like being at a water carnival (defensive fire operations) - put the deuce and a half into a keenan loop and sit there.

I agree - a 2 1/2" isn't as easy as a 1 3/4 to handle. but once again, mobility isn't the key in this instance - water volume & pressure is.

And I would use the inch and a half to spread AFFF  (polyethylene oxide works pretty well to but the AFFF is a NSN item and you should be able to get it from the Navy fairly quickly) well and thoroughly on the perimeter approaches.  Rioters that can't stand can't charge.

That's not a bad idea , but many .gov's have gotten away from AFFF due to it's being "non-green" .
FFFP works pretty well, and it stinks. Let 'em get a nosefull while they're acting up.

Remington 870 shotguns.

Lethal and less lethal varieties.

6 Garands
6 Remington 870s with extended magazine tubes

Lots of ammo.

Use the rest on sandbags for barracades?

Quoted: No greater friend.  No greater enemy. Assault Beagles can be had for around ~$500 since the ban expired. If you’re going to go with the AB’s be sure you get some kydex holsters.  The leather and nylon ones will start to take a smell after a while.

Dude! You forgot to pull the pin on that thing!

Man, drool everywhere...

per man:

1 light shield
1 single handed sledge hammer
1 can of mace
3 teargas grenades
3 flashbangs
1 handgun


but thats only if you want to get medeviel on their asses.

12 Streetsweepers, or Stryker 12s whatever they are called. "It's a jungle out there"

What the heck, Commie countries have been containing riots for years with officers equipped with sidearms, riot gear, shield, and helmet. Waaaay less than 1500$.

Ben

a beat up pick-em-up truck

w/ a good grill guard

Are off-duty cops [with riot experience] an option?  Including a couple at the Sgt. level. Let them tell you what extra gear they need. The  insurance company should kick in, too. Twelve isn't very many if the crowd moves on them, training & teamwork are important.

Quoted: per man: 1 light shield 1 single handed sledge hammer 1 can of mace 3 teargas grenades 3 flashbangs 1 handgun but thats only if you want to get medeviel on their asses.

?????  no helmet?  Baton?  What's with the sledge hammer?

Sharks with friggin lazer beams.

Slasher, any further info/ideas?

Put them on the roof.... 12 cigarette lighters, and all the cherry bombs and M-80's you can throw.

Quoted: Quoted: per man: 1 light shield 1 single handed sledge hammer 1 can of mace 3 teargas grenades 3 flashbangs 1 handgun but thats only if you want to get medeviel on their asses. ?????  no helmet?  Baton?  What's with the sledge hammer?

CW

Quoted: Quoted: per man: 1 light shield 1 single handed sledge hammer 1 can of mace 3 teargas grenades 3 flashbangs 1 handgun but thats only if you want to get medeviel on their asses. ?????  no helmet?  Baton?  What's with the sledge hammer?

oops, forgot the helmet.


Btw, would YOU want to rush someone that had a sledge hammer? I know I wouldn't

one Texas Ranger

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: per man: 1 light shield 1 single handed sledge hammer 1 can of mace 3 teargas grenades 3 flashbangs 1 handgun but thats only if you want to get medeviel on their asses. ?????  no helmet?  Baton?  What's with the sledge hammer? comicbookads.leafpublishing.com/hall-of-covers/thor-180.jpg CW

extactly what i was thinking.

Quoted: Giving this thread a little more thought....I think it would completely depend on who the 12 men were. If they were Arfcommers I'd load em up with extra thick helmets, kevlar, urban marpat and some airsoft rifles. If they were northern Maine guys I'd give them lever action 30-30's and bourbon. If they were from California I'd buy them all BATF compliant firearms with 10 round mags. If they were from Texas, I'd score a bunch of (insert homoerotic beastiality joke here) I could go on....but it'd depend largely on who the guys were.

LMFAO, I almost fell outta my chair reading that!

Its a riot, right?

Most here seem to be jumping way the heck off base.

A riot, does not, by its nature, automatically endow those keeping the peace with the right to use deadly force to effect arrests, defend property or other necessary counter-riot duties.

The budget, while arbitrary, is actually on the high side, when one thinks about it, as most of the weapons employed in civil disturbance duties are strictly non-lethal or less lethal.

There is also a matter of associated tactics. Arming everyone with a shotgun may seem like a "good" idea, but realistically, a long gun is often times a liability in dealing with a civil disturbance, and the long gun bearers (grenadiers or designated marksmen, if one wants to get technical), usually have to be protected by everyone else.

Given the breakdown, here is my "riot squad" (and I'll note that this is a real consideration for me at work, and 12 officers is a good approximation of what I have to work with and the breakdown of equipment that I list is what I would actually have immediately available to counter a riot or other major disturbance):

Two 5 Officer Teams, each issued the following on an individual basis:
Sidearms (I am not budgeting for those, as they are a "given")
Protech riot helmet-$110
Protech polycarbonate 36" riot baton-$30
DRMO surplus PSAGT vest (in addition to normal issued concealable armor)-free (for the sake of budgeters, I'll also call it $50).
Issued OC spray-$15
MSA gas mask and carrier-$200
A bunch of extra flex cuffs-$10
100 oz CamelBak-$75

Additional items, issued 1 or 2 per team:
DefTech Mk IX OC cannister-$25
PepperBall SA200 launcher-$400 (although usually, when you buy a bunch of rounds like we do, they kick in a free launcher or two for every 500-1000 rounds or so).

I'll maintain my $2500 tricked out M4 for DM use (thank you generous taxpayers), particularly since I am the "Squad Leader" and keep one grenadier with me carrying a bag of bangs ($25 each) and Stingball grenades ($50 each). If we can't handle it, then we retreat and wait for the cavalry (SWAT and mutual aid). No warehouse is worth getting killed over.

When you really look at it, it costs my particular agency about $115,000 for the first year to put a new Patrol Officer out there, and that includes all of the above riot gear that I listed. Only about 50K of that (roughly) is salary, benefits and supervison. The rest is equipment.

Quoted: Quoted: umm 11/2" or 2" at most.  You ever tried to control or move a charged 2" fire hose ? In a word? Yes. You'll get a lot more "bang for the buck" with a solid bore tip on a deuce and a half manned by 3 guys with hose straps. I've used 2 1/2" as an attack line several times - including once on a multiple occupancy 3rd alarm fire before we were pulled out. The four of us on the inside knocked down a sh*t load of fire. It was several hours later before they rooms reignited (after we had gone "D"), and we let it burn under orders. The smoothbore deuce is your friend. Lower nozzle pressure w/ more GPM  = less beatin' the crew. The "Lines of legend"  I referred to were the ones in pulitzer pictures being used on the freedom marchers in Alabama and Mississippi during the '60's. If you're defending a fixed position it's a lot like being at a water carnival (defensive fire operations) - put the deuce and a half into a keenan loop and sit there. I agree - a 2 1/2" isn't as easy as a 1 3/4 to handle. but once again, mobility isn't the key in this instance - water volume & pressure is. And I would use the inch and a half to spread AFFF  (polyethylene oxide works pretty well to but the AFFF is a NSN item and you should be able to get it from the Navy fairly quickly) well and thoroughly on the perimeter approaches.  Rioters that can't stand can't charge. That's not a bad idea , but many .gov's have gotten away from AFFF due to it's being "non-green" . FFFP works pretty well, and it stinks. Let 'em get a nosefull while they're acting up.

If you can get a monitor the bigger lines are fine, just thinking more about tying up too many guys on a hoseline.  If all you got is 12, you going to run out of guys too fast on the hoses.  Specially if you have to drag too much of it around.  Plus if one gets away from you the big ones  get real exciting.

Who needs 12?

Quoted: If you can get a monitor the bigger lines are fine, just thinking more about tying up too many guys on a hoseline.  If all you got is 12, you going to run out of guys too fast on the hoses.  Specially if you have to drag too much of it around.  Plus if one gets away from you the big ones  get real exciting.

Fair enough. I was thinking mobility was secondary, due to defense of a fixed position. If your hose guys  were to watch the main access points, they could handle a fair crowd with non-lethal means.

For an unarmed mob (hippies, etc), on $1000/person:
plate carrier, 2x steel (lvl. IV standalone) plates, surplus (new) PASGT helmet: $600
all components needed to make a 100% operational flamethrower (integrate into LBV): $100
mid-quality gas-mask, spare filter, and carrier: $300


That should be more than enough. If a flamethrower won't keep a group of idiots at bay, they deserve to die.

For an armed group, and 12 people:
(12x) LBV with plate carrier, 2x steel (lvl. IV standalone) plates, surplus (new) PASGT helmet: $600/ea ($7200)
(8x) police shotties, blackhawk shotshell slings: $150/ea ($1200)
(4x) AR-15 carbines, 12 mags each, slings: $800 ($3200)
(12x) radio w/ earpiece and neck-mic for each man: $110 ($1320)
Total: $12920

Quad .50, China Lake Armaments pump-action 40mm grenade launcher, nine M-16's with M203 40mm grenade launchers, and a flamethrower would do it.

Add some willy-pete grenades and CS and you're ready to rock and roll.