the problem with this chart and similar is that it only takes into account people that actually have the account. Most people don't have any kind of investment vehicle set up. Something like 80% of Americans couldn't come up with $500 cash for an emergency, so those people sure as hell aren't maxing out HSAs, 401k, 529, and other tax advantaged stuff.

My In Laws are going through some of this now. 70 year old took a part time job to help cover a car note for a newer car. It's their money and their decisions but it's also part of the reason why i plan on inheriting nothing from either side and know I'll likely need to support additional family as they age.

Yep. Friend of mine I mentioned earlier. He’s making lots of money. Spending it as fast as he’s making it. Everything he needs, he buys on credit. Has already spent the only retirement he had. With the money he is making, he could easily put aside 20k+ per year. But, he won’t. Great, hard working guy who will have SS alone when he retires. Sucks to see as I really like him and he will literally do anything for you. But he won’t plan and invest in his own future.

Here’s a link to the survey:
https://budgetsaresexy.com/files/road-to-retirement-survey.pdf

It isn’t based on account data.

Here is what it is based on,


So it does self-select out all people with <$25k in investable assets.

Nonetheless it is pretty scary how few people of the remaining survey group have more than $1 million.

Also, based on this data
https://dqydj.com/average-retirement-savings/


If the linked data above for 32 to 61 years old people is representative then $25k knocks out people below the 48th percentile.

I'm 54.  I have a defined benefit pension from 32yrs in the mil, and a robust defined contribution retirement plan from my civilian career.  Either would suffice for the wife and I, and I've always planned as if I'd never see one dime of social security.  Combined we're set to do fine.  I've had people say "you're lucky", as if all that happened by chance.

The only major speedbump is an unplanned inheritance changing my tax brackets this year, which is likely my last full year of working.  So be it, that's a one-time hit.

I always recommend to the younger guys that work with me maxing out the company match and other prudent measures.  To date, only two of them have taken any of that advice- my experience matches well with the worrying percentages already discussed here.

Sounds like you have a level head and a plan, which is better than 87% of Americans. Good for you.

I hate the "you are lucky" comment. It's handwaving away all the discipline and planning that was done for decades.

I think it's easier to dismiss people like you as "lucky" rather than own up to your own choices and decisions.

All these people who never save, have a ton of debt, and have that YOLO attitude are going to be sorry when retirement age comes.......and there is a lot of them.

I get so sick of the “lucky” comments from people talking about my retirement set up.  Even one friend of mine says that.  He has always made more money than me,  likely about double in his construction heavy equipment operator roll.   He’s very good at his work and has only taken a lay off because he asked for it to do some work at his house.  He goes on several vacations a year out of the country, has a second home, has one child in med school.   He always did extra for his kids while neglecting his retirement plans and then would have a negative comment about public sector retirements.  I remind him that all he had to do was put a small amount of earnings in to a retirement and he could retire soon.  He just started in his late forties or early fifties.  I also remind him I wasn’t “lucky” that retirement was part of the package for lower income than my education level that was a job requirement, lower than cost of living raises, delayed raises but the total package with medical and pension it almost averaged out.  The difference was they had a system in place for retirement and my friend needed to participate in his company’s plans and get his own plan on the side.  He failed to prioritize it.  

Then there were the bar fly types that would call me lucky while they would only work for themselves and weren’t that diligent in working or saving.  It’s not my fault you swung a hammer until 60 and didn’t put a penny away.  Being self employed, no shit you need to plan for your own retirement but many never do but bitch about working until they die.  That part of life is predictable unlike getting hit with immense medical bills that wreck your nest egg.

The "lucky" comment pisses me off...

No.  I'm not "lucky".  When I got paid, I really wanted to take my wife out for dinner, plan a vacation to Europe, buy a sports car, and put a new Leupold VX6 scope on my deer rifle.  Instead of the above, I made a conscious decision to still take her out for dinner, but we skipped drinks and dessert.  The European vacation got downgraded to a two week road trip.  The sports car got passed over in favor of a used BMW motorcycle, and I made do with the VX3 scope.  Then I took all the money saved, which some years was 18-20% of income, and invested it

In contrast, others spent every dime.  And invested nothing.  That was a decision on their part. Now they face retirement at 64, have zero money, a lot of debt and realize retirement in not an option.  

It's not luck.  It's decision making, wisdom, prudence and a realistic mindset.  Some hard work too.  But not luck. No lottery tickets involved.

The above was the intent of starting this thread.  The idea of not relying on luck, and instead planning and prepping.

I also get annoyed with the “luck” comment. In my case, the only thing I feel I got “lucky” at was in my late teens and early 20s I was building a retirement and didn’t even fully realize how important what I was doing was. It wasn’t till I was in my mid to later 20s when I became aware of what I had built so far and what I needed to still build. I was “lucky” in the sense that someone who I greatly respect encouraged me to build a retirement. I did the work but he encouraged me to think about it. That’s why I encourage other people I know to build their retirements. Maybe I am sticking my nose in their “bidnez” and if they get offended, so be it. Some might benefit and some won’t because they choose not to.

Good statement!

OOFF, If he can get 100 a night (MAYBE if he is near old orchard beach, bar harbor, etc), he could get 30% occupancy, 1k a month, he has it paid off(taxes, interest, etc) in 6 years.  But that is optimistic, plus i didnt include expenses.

FWIW I had 10k in my 401k by the time i graduated college, zero student loans(i had a job every semester, and full time for senior and junior year). I'm 'm 43 in the Fall and Ive got 500k stashed in the old 401k, plus a separate IRA(22k, heavy on dividend stocks), and a brokerage account i play with (5k, I literally named is "play money" it is mostly dividend stuff though, and that BS "my size" crap some shill here hawked me onto, I lost like 50 bucks... (y'all need to encourage your wives to eat 900 twinkies a day so I can get rich!!!). Plan when I was 22 was sketched out, plotted out raises, potential earinings, etc, 1.8M inflation adjusted was my goal, and if market keeps up the standard(and 1980's high inflation, high interest rates, market returns well into high teens were standard),  I should see 1 inflation halving event, and 2-3 principal doubling event in the 14 years till i retire. So the 1.8 mil should be right on target. I even dropped contribuions from 20% to 10%(company match is only 5%) to get my "above target" fun car. (im saving for it with the non contributions, 9 months to go, then that used C5 is mine).

I was indeed lucky- I took a job at 24 that turned out to have a pension plan, and I could retire at 50 with it.  Was not a factor in taking the initial job though…. But it absolutely was a factor when I switched employers, deciding which place to go to (so I could stay in the same plan), looked to improve my income, and decided how hard to work.  Because after a couple years, I had that retirement system figured out.

Saw a lot of people along the way who didn’t care, didn’t figure it out, whatever, and they basically blew it, won’t be retiring as early as me, won’t do as well in retirement, and won’t have anything extra either as they did not contribute to their deferred comp.  Or all the people who could not gut it out, bailed to a different job, different retirement system, different state, etc. All things that will extend your working time frame usually unfortunately.

So yeah- luck was there, at the beginning, in helping start me down the right path.  But when people get too commenting too much about it I will mention the permanent injuries, the nearly dying a few times, the ridiculous hours and commitment required, and that the only thing stopping them from doing something similar was themself.  Usually puts a quick end to that line of conversation.  

Basically - you make your own luck.  Gotta play the cards you are dealt obviously, but it is sure hard to win the game if it is poker night and you are the person playing Go Fish…

I believe for most people, once you hit somewhere around 50 yrs old you need to have your retirement plan in place…or at least a rough draft. Retirement toys purchased or a plan in place to purchase them before you retire. House paid off or a plan to have it paid off before you retire.

There are always exceptions to the above but I think for most people, this would be a good guide.

I do not want to go into retirement with any debt. I am amazed at the number of people I know who have lots of debt as they get closer and closer to retirement. It appears they never thought about a retirement date and are simply planning to work till they die. There are ways to leverage debt to benefit yourself but in my opinion, most people (not all) are far better having no debt at the start of retirement.

I know lots of people who won’t live anywhere close to the same standard of living in retirement as they had when working. They can’t have the same standard because they have too much debt, or not enough retirement income, or both.

https://apnews.com/article/aarp-older-adults-retirement-savings-prices-c4f1353d97e8c0a9973c9c67a8eab800


About 1 in 4 US adults 50 and older who aren’t yet retired expect to never retire, AARP study finds

WASHINGTON (AP) — About one-quarter of U.S. adults age 50 and older who are not yet retired say they expect to never retire and 70% are concerned about prices rising faster than their income, an AARP survey finds.

About 1 in 4 have no retirement savings, according to research released Wednesday by the organization that shows how a graying America is worrying more and more about how to make ends meet even as economists and policymakers say the U.S. economy has all but achieved a soft landing after two years of record inflation.

Everyday expenses and housing costs, including rent and mortgage payments, are the biggest reasons why people are unable to save for retirement.

The data will matter this election year as Democratic President Joe Biden and Republican rival Donald Trump are trying to win support from older Americans, who traditionally turn out in high numbers, with their policy proposals.

The AARP’s study, based on interviews completed with more than 8,000 people in coordination with the NORC Center for Public Affairs Research, finds that one-third of older adults with credit card debt carry a balance of more than $10,000 and 12% have a balance of $20,000 or more. Additionally, 37% are worried about meeting basic living costs such as food and housing.

“Far too many people lack access to retirement savings options and this, coupled with higher prices, is making it increasingly hard for people to choose when to retire,” said Indira Venkateswaran, AARP’s senior vice president of research. “Everyday expenses continue to be the top barrier to saving more for retirement, and some older Americans say that they never expect to retire.”

The share of people 50 and older who say they do not expect to retire has remained steady. It was 23% in January 2022 and 24% that July, according to the study, which is conducted twice a year

“We are seeing an expansion of older workers staying in the workforce,” said David John, senior strategic policy advisor at the AARP Public Policy Institute. He said this is in part because older workers “don’t have sufficient retirement savings. It’s a problem and its likely to continue as we go forward.”

Based on the 2022 congressional elections, census data released Tuesday shows that voters 65 and older made up 30.4% of all voters, while Gen Z and millennials accounted for 11.7%.

Biden has tried to court older voters by regularly promoting a $35 price cap on insulin for people on Medicare. He trumpets Medicare’s powers to negotiate directly with drugmakers on the cost of prescription medications.

Trump, in an interview with CNBC in March, indicated he would be open to cuts to Social Security and Medicare. The former president said “there is a lot you can do in terms of entitlements, in terms of cutting.”

Karoline Leavitt, press secretary for Trump’s campaign, said in a statement to The Associated Press on Tuesday that Trump “will continue to strongly protect Social Security and Medicare in his second term.”

In the AARP survey, 33% of respondents 50 and older believe their finances will be better in a year.

A looming issue that will affect Americans’ ability to retire is the financial health of Social Security and Medicare.

The latest annual report from the program’s trustees says the financial safety nets for millions of older Americans will run short of money to pay full benefits within the next decade.

Medicare, the government-sponsored health insurance that covers 65 million older and disabled people, will be unable to pay full benefits for inpatient hospital visits and nursing home stays by 2031, the report forecast. And just two years later, Social Security will not have enough cash on hand to pay out full benefits to its 66 million retirees.

An AP-NORC poll from March 2023 found that most U.S. adults are opposed to proposals that would cut into Medicare or Social Security benefits, and a majority support raising taxes on the nation’s highest earners to keep Medicare running as is.

Worthwhile video to watch especially the first few minutes.

Since most people aren't putting even $1000 away for retirement, the $1000 guy is ahead of the competition.

Generally speaking, when I speak with people I know, I don't talk about my numbers.  I talk general principles and ball park numbers but never my actual numbers.  The reason is, many people get insanely envious when they discover you are FAR ahead of them in retirement preparation/savings.  When talking to people at work, while I never share my numbers, quite a few people have shared theirs with me.  I try to give them good suggestions and point them in the direction of people who know far more than I do.  Very very few people are in good retirement shape.  A few are.  Most are not.  I would like to see more people in better financial shape so I try to help whenever someone is interested.

Interesting, but honestly, I have no idea who this guy is, but if he only figured that stuff out AFTER retiring, that is a serious concern about his level of expertise.  And he was helping 300 other people as well?  I sure hope it was after he figured this stuff out.

Example- Sequence Of Return Risk?  Basic stuff.  As in it is the entire reason why you change from maybe 100/0 or 90/10 equities/fixed income early on, and gradually taper to your desired percentages at retirement age (anywhere from 80/20-50/50 commonly).  If you have not figured that out, you are rolling the dice on when you can retire at minimum, and may get hosed by a bad couple years right out of the gate.

Example 2- NewRetirement.com- decent program, they have improved it quite a bit, but it still lacks in some areas.  I still think it is good to use, but you will find it does have some cludgy areas in my opinion.  He never mentions the other programs/sites that you can use to backtest your situation though, and those are something that has been around quite a while.  This has been around a while, he should have used it way earlier instead of discovering it so late.

This one is pretty good and you can put in some income streams, several if you read the directions.  Same website has a couple other good calculators.
https://engaging-data.com/will-money-last-retire-early/

Firecalc- good for modeling some different spending rates and such.
https://firecalc.com/

cFIREsim:
https://www.cfiresim.com/

Pralana- has a free and a paid version- supposed ro be good for Roth conversion timing:
https://pralanaretirementcalculator.com/

Used to be another great one called the Optimal Retirement Planner, but it is defunct now.  Think the developer died and nobody has taken it up.

Anyhow- play with enough retirement calculators enough, and you will figure out that most of them are lobotomized programs, missing some important details or over simplifying things so you get a false sense of comfort.  

You don’t need excel to figure it all out, I used pen and paper, and verified with all the above programs and others.  So far inflation has been the huge unpredictable thing for me (FJB!) but otherwise going as expected.

Yeah it is weird how people are like that.  Easiest when talking with someone in similar financial situations as yourself.  And they are not usually the ones who need much help…

Had a chance recently to chat with the guy who got us our 1% HSA accounts, and who told everyone to do deferred comp.  When that HSA came in he said “when you retire, you’ll be glad you have it”.  He was 100% correct.  And while I didn’t listen very early about doing deferred comp, I did eventually start doing it about halfway thru my career, and it is a nice little bit of change.  The guys who started it on day 1 are sitting pretty damned good right now as a result.  Several were there who fell i to that category.  I wish we had actually discussed it a lot more.

One of the supervisors who will retire in maybe 5 years or so was one of the newbies who got the talk on day 1 and started setting money aside right then.  I was glad to hear that he himself now discusses it with all his folks, which means that the cycle of mentorship is complete, or at least ongoing!

Yeah, getting down to the numbers usually doesn’t do anything but alienate people.  I had a conversation about retirement with one of my best friends recently. The disparity in our preparations in that department were depressing.  I ended up feeling shitty, like I had inadvertently rubbed his nose in it.  Really, I figured we were at about the same point in our lives and that we were (roughly) in the same position.  I was wrong.

There is an interesting cultural thing going on with numbers...


We have a cultural taboo against sharing our financial information.  I've kind of overstating this to make a point, but we'll talk with others about our health, our marriage, sometimes even our sex lives.  'Yeah, she's really enthusiastic in the sack but doesn't like such-and-such very much".   However, we can never seemingly talk about our money.  "So, how much do you make?  What's your mortgage payment?"   These are taboo.

I haven't got proof.  I cannot back this up.  However, I think there was a time when the manager paid Jimmy $100 and Johnny got $150.  "Just dont tell anybody." Secrecy over pay was encouraged, even demanded.  Management doesn't want the peasants discussing sensitive topics, getting upset, and raising hell....

Again, no proof but I suspect that our taboo against talking numbers keeps us little people apart, isolated, and easier to manage.  Some of the most heavily marketed products in the world are financial products:  Credit cards.  Home equity loans.  Mortgages.  etc.  Big corporations manage millions of loans.  You only have your experience.  its kind of like playing cards in Vegas:  The house has better odds, and the game is structured in the house's favor.....

Its hard to talk numbers.  I used to coach Dave Ramsey's Financial Peace Univ.  Its fine and dandy to talk in general terms, but saw a LOT of people very reluctant to actually discuss things in hard terms:  I make $50,000, my mortgage payment is $1806 and I have $32,817 in credit card debt.  That kind of detail is hard to discuss.  

Its kind of limiting...   Imagine going to the hospital, and being reluctant to discuss details....  So Mr Smith, tell me what's going on? Instead of 'I feel faint, having shortness of breath, my heart is racing, and I have extreme pains in my left arm and in my chest..." the patent says only 'Im not feeling too good, and Im kind of private so I dont want you to take my blood pressure, hook up the EKG and no blood tests of any kind..."...  Kind of hard to get a quick accurate diagnosis.


I wont force anyone.  If they are happy turning over their entire paycheck to the bank, dont want to save, and aren't retirement ready, fair enough. Decisions have consequences.  However, when someone rarely admits "yeah, I need help",  I'm willing to help organize, plan and work on improvements.  I can give general advice (which doesn't do much.  Its kind of like "try more exercise, eat less fatty foods".  Good ideas that dont necessarily address your current cardiac arrest.

We live in a culture where talking finance numbers is taboo. However, if youre willing to honestly talk numbers, all of them, we can probably come up with a plan that works.  The more real and honest and complete the numbers are, the better the plan can work....

I've run the Ramsey course for about 30 people.  It long term helped a few couples.   there are a lot who wanted a magic pill, and didn't want to get honest, admit truth and/or change.  thats okay.  we have the freedom to choose.  and choosing to fail is an option.

I've only had TWO people really willing to put hard numbers on the table.   And I've been brutally honest in looking at the numbers and trying to point people in the right direction.  In both cases it was a complete financial turn around....  I can't help if they can't be honest....

Just remember - even for the ones that dont "get it" - you are planting a seed.  It will grow.  I know lots of people that need to hear things multiple times before it starts to sink in, or they have their "moment".  So everything you are teaching is helping a lot more people than you might be able to see.

Yeah- our pay was public info, and as an OT whore my info was one of the ones always viewable, yet it was still uncommon for folks to discuss any of it as much as they really should.  

Sometimes you just gotta beat up on people a bit to get the idea thru their heads- a good buddy who is barely contributing to his 457b will get told pretty seriously that he needs to up his game, while a regular old coworker might just hear a “make sure you are putting money in your deferred comp!” from me.  

Yep.

And do the same with your own kids!

I know "family" is different...

Daughter is a recent grad Pharmacist.  Makes awesome money.  I nagged and nagged and nagged.  Told her I was NEVER gonna relent until she started 401K contributions.  It worked.

Just recently she went to buy a car.  She called Dad.  What are the numbers honey?  My answer was not only no, but fuck no.  within 20 minutes I'd saved her about $15,000 on a new car and the usual finance fleecing...

And yesterday she and the fiancé signed ink on a house.  Its been numerous calls about numbers.  Income, pay, expenses, other debts, mortgages,  etc.  All of this numbers sharing with one goal:  I'm not smarter than she is, Ive just lived longer, experienced more.  I simply know more about what works, what doesn't.  The realtors, banks, and everyone else LOVE an uneducated buyer.  Its dollar signs.  A few conversations with Dad, a willingness to talk numbers, and we managed to get the kids a deal on their new home, and saved $25,000.

This isn't a great example, because its family.  But having a knowledgeable financial mentor (who isn't getting commissions on trades, etc) can be really valuable...

One of my kids is a science major and gets investing and is setting aside a good percentage.  We talk investing fairly often.  Their issue is needing more income and trying to buy a house….  

Other one is a budding accountant, saves well, has a job lined up, but is not as interested in investing, and doesn’t seem to actually trust that I somewhat know what I am talking about, because my background is not business/ finance/ accounting!  So getting that one to sort out their 401k is somewhat of a challenge.  Robo advisory software put them into something more appropriate for a 40 yr old than an early 20’s kid…. Plus it is a higher fee fund than it should be.  Frustrating.  Yeah what do I know…my background is just engineering, and while I did switch careers, I still retired at 50!  But some lobotomized software program knows better, because ???

I watch a lot of youtube videos.  I gather various tips from each of them.  I don't agree with everyone 100% and that's ok.  If I get a useful tip from a dumbass, it's still a useful tip.  I don't agree with Dave Ramsey on a few things, but I have learned a lot listening to him on youtube....and listening to some of his callers talk about how bad their financial situation is, makes me feel a lot better about my financial situation!

If someone comes to me and asks for specific advise, I will need to know some numbers to help that person.  But, I can make general suggestions without knowing someone's numbers.  For specific advise, I would need to know specific numbers.  And, I would also probably point that person toward someone more knowledgeable than I am if they needed specific numbers.  

I have been surprised at how many people tell me specific numbers without me asking or wanting them.  But, when I hear someone is in good shape, it makes me happy.  The ones in bad financial shape, get angry when they hear how much better other people's situation is.  I suspect we've seen that a little in this thread.

Very nice.  Always good to see someone off to a good start.

Yeah I will admit to watching Ramsey myself on occasion- it is entertaining for sure.  Love the folks who call in with millions in their bank account, too afraid to invest it.  Well off people can be dumb too…

But not everyone needs to be “making content” these days either….  Basically- If he was really that far behind the ball, he should be the one watching videos, not making them.  The info was fine, just stuff he should have known well before retiring…

Someone directed me to some financial threads in GD. It’s sad to see the level of hatred from posters on here directed at those who have saved and planned for retirement. It’s would probably amaze many of us how bad shape many people on here are for financial planning. What it really boils down to is envy…”I don’t have that level of savings and planning because I spent all my money on guns/boats/cars/alcohol etc so I wish those other people  who DID plan for their future didn’t have all that money”.

It’s no different than you or I planning for a power outage by having a generator and fuel stored for it. Power goes out and you fire up your generator and go back to a normal or semi normal life. Your neighbors who failed to plan then bitch and moan about how it’s not fair you have electricity and they do not.

We have seen a little bit of envy here in this thread but it’s off the charts in GD.

My 19 year old recently started a Roth.

"Must be nice"

“It is”

“You’re just lucky”

*snicker*

I think you just described a large portion of GD posters!

Yep- right back to that “luck” stuff.  

Like I said before, you make your own luck.  Take advantage of any good situations that may occur, but planning is what wins the game, and planning isn’t luck…

Or the folks, my siblings included, that would spend $6-10k every year on vacations. Sometimes more than one of those.  Then again, you cannot take it with you and living a good life is a thing.  Most of my travelling was with the government sponsored trips while I wore camouflage.   A few trips to Maine or Cape Cod.   I am not much of a traveller.   I do realize that waiting too long to do so is also a mistake,....I saw my mother do that but she was not exactly stellar with her finances.  Not bad but not that good as a widow.

A steady job and steady savings and I had a retirement that should be plenty adequate at a middling level of spending.

I’ve said it before but here it is again…we need to find that ideal balance. I don’t want to scrimp and save just to die with a pile of money. I don’t want to spend more than I make and end up having to work into my 70s to survive. So, I have found the balance of spending vs saving/investing. We still do things we enjoy and go places we want to go to but we do it responsibly.

Right. We make a decent income and yet other people on our street had better/newer cars than us. But were they investing in their retirement funds? We all make choices, it's called discipline and priorities.


I currently work 60-80 hours a week, and still find time to exercise about 1-hour each day. And I have people telling me that they don't have time to exercise.

Look buddy, if your health was a priority, you would find the time. That's just an excuse.

Talked to a friend today about a mutual acquaintance. Mutual acquaintance is 58 and more than $200k in debt (house and vehicles). He has no savings/investments but is eligible for a small pension. Will be eligible for SS. That’s it. The math doesn’t add up to much of a retirement. He’s being strangled by debt.

Dont be like him.

Like Dave Ramsey or hate him…..if he followed Dave Ramsey’s advice he wouldn’t be in this predicament.