Guy's, I haven't forgotten you. The weather here in Central Missouri hasn't been very helpful. I will try to post some pics to keep you guys going until I get weather to shoot
Cbell

Sounds fancy.

Thanx jmart.

Sammy

Quoted: Quoted: Will someone please post ArmsTech's contact information. Thanx. Sammy Arms Tech Ltd. 5133 North central Ave Phoenix, AZ  85012 Voice:  (602) 272-9045 Fax:     (602) 272-1922 email: [email protected] website:  To Be Developed

Ok, I got to shoot some today and have partial results for everyony to start looking at. I shot  Winchester White Box 55gr, Horbady TAP 75gr, and 36gr Blended Metal. I used the ARMS-TECH COMPAK 16 9.5" upper, 14.5" CMMG M4 upper (1-7twist), and CBE/CMMG 10.3"(1-7twist) upper. I only had time to do Chrono on these, I shot some groups but run out of time.

Temp:56 F
Humidity: 41%
Alt: 865 ft
Baro: 29.94
3-4mph winds at approx 45 deg. into shooters face.
Info provided by Kestrel

Arms-Tech Compak 16 9.5" Upper:
White Box 55gr.= 2386.6 fps (10 shot avg.)
T.A.P. 75gr= 2233.4 fps (10 shot avg.)
Blended Metal 36gr= 2735.2fps (5 shot avg)

CMMG 14.5" MOD4 Upper:
White Box 55gr.= 2774.5fps (10 shot avg.)
T.A.P. 75gr= 2500.5fps (10 shot avg.)
Blended Metal 36gr= 3243.6fps (5 shot avg.)

CBE/CMMG 10.3" Upper:
White Box 55gr.= 2491.5fps (10 shot avg.)
T.A.P. 75gr.= 2309.9fps (10 shot avg.)
Blended Metal 36gr.= 2892.1fps (5 shot avg.)

All uppers ran without any issues, I shot a couple of groups but I want to reshoot before we make any judgement. I can say that the worst that was shot was 1.2 M.O.A..
Rate of Fire:
Arms Tech: 636 rounds per min.
14.5" CMMG: 801rounds per min.
10.3" CBE/CMMG: 1016 rounds per min.

I will try to shoot again early this week (weather permitting) and finish the 100 yd chrono data, groupings, additional ammo, and 7.5" as well as 11.5" uppers.
Hope this gives everyone something to read!!!!! Enjoy!!!!
Chris Bell

Looks like if it doesn't rain tomorrow (sunday) I can go and shoot some more. Anything specific anyone whant me to be sure and shoot next?
Chris Bell

Quoted: And don't forget 2,700 fps with M193 ball or TAP, either.

Quoted: Arms-Tech Compak 16 9.5" Upper: White Box 55gr.= 2386.6 fps (10 shot avg.)

Are we talking about the same system?

Nevermind, I was thinking the other white box...

Thanks very much for chronographing these loads.  I must say I'm a bit underwhelmed by the velocity figures.  400 fps off of the M4 barrel length doesn't dovetail with earlier writeups.  I'm not doubting your numbers, I'm just disappointed.

If you have any full pressure M193 or M855, it would be nice to know how those stack up.

Here's a question for you- The 75 gr. TAP rounds- How did they work out from the 1/9 twist barrel?  I know 1/9 twist is hit or miss as far as stabilizing heavy bullets.  
..If it did work that would make the Armtech upper really attractive

Quoted: Ok, I got to shoot some today and have partial results for everyony to start looking at. I shot  Winchester White Box 55gr, Horbady TAP 75gr, and 36gr Blended Metal. I used the ARMS-TECH COMPAK 16 9.5" upper, 14.5" CMMG M4 upper (1-7twist), and CBE/CMMG 10.3"(1-7twist) upper. I only had time to do Chrono on these, I shot some groups but run out of time. Arms-Tech Compak 16 9.5" Upper: White Box 55gr.= 2386.6 fps (10 shot avg.) T.A.P. 75gr= 2233.4 fps (10 shot avg.) Blended Metal 36gr= 2735.2fps (5 shot avg) CMMG 14.5" MOD4 Upper: White Box 55gr.= 2774.5fps (10 shot avg.) T.A.P. 75gr= 2500.5fps (10 shot avg.) Blended Metal 36gr= 3243.6fps (5 shot avg.) CBE/CMMG 10.3" Upper: White Box 55gr.= 2491.5fps (10 shot avg.) T.A.P. 75gr.= 2309.9fps (10 shot avg.) Blended Metal 36gr.= 2892.1fps (5 shot avg.) All uppers ran without any issues, I shot a couple of groups but I want to reshoot before we make any judgement. I can say that the worst that was shot was 1.2 M.O.A.. Rate of Fire: Arms Tech: 636 rounds per min. 14.5" CMMG: 801rounds per min. 10.3" CBE/CMMG: 1016 rounds per min. I will try to shoot again early this week (weather permitting) and finish the 100 yd chrono data, groupings, additional ammo, and 7.5" as well as 11.5" uppers. Hope this gives everyone something to read!!!!! Enjoy!!!! Chris Bell

WOW!
Now we know

Cold hard numbers really say it all.

So much for those M4 velocities out of a 9.5" barrel.  I would have expected it to at least have reached the velocities of the 10.3CMMG, but alass...

Tex78

Temperature? Altitude? Humidity? Barometric Pressure?

Thank you very much for taking the time to chronograph these rifles & loads.

I am anxious to see the results of your additional tests!

Post modified to note conditions!
I shot some quick groups at 100 yds, I want to go back and shoot again with more time. Arms-Tech shot a 1.26" group with the 75gr. TAP, 10.3" CBE/CMMG shot 1.1" with 75gr TAP, 14.5" shot 1.1" with 75gr. TAP. I ran out of time so I want to shoot a couple of groups and avg. them, Try to take the shooter out of the equation. I know someone will ask, Optics were Nikon Tactical 2.5x-10x!!!
Next session (hopefully tomorrow) will include XM193, M855 and SS109.
The most impressive  was the Blended Metal, very accurate for 36gr with a 4mph crosswind. I shot a .92 group out of the 10.3" CBE/CMMG upper with them. Awesome rounds, expensive but awesome!!
Guys i hope I'm doing OK on this. I have some pics but haven't had time to upload them yet (dialup)
Chris

Nothing new to report today (RAIN). looks like I have to go to the range on Thurs. with the local PD and shoot. I am going to have the rest of the results by then, I am going to try to shoot tuesday as well. I will keep everyone posted. Again, if there are any special request, let me know and I will try to accomadate them.
Chris

I've been out for a few days and have been anxious to see how this thread developed.  Man, I'm amazed and thanks for the compo test.  The results bring up a number of questions.  I know my COMPAK-16 was chrono'd at a local range (Largo, FL) before I deployed.  I remember distinctly getting 2700-2705 readings before I took off.  Also, the I know the factory folks told about some recent (early 04) testing in VA for both the US gov't and a mid east gov't where the unit got the same results.  So here's my question:

1. Does the unit being tested here have the latest barrel, a progressive gain twist 1:9 or the interim straight polygonal 1:9 or the early Ballard rifling version?
2. Also, how about doing a test of controlability and accuracy under auto fire?
3. Do you have any reliability data (relative to the ammo) in auto fire with the test units?


I concur upon reflection that a 1:7 might have more utility.   Also, with the significantly lower cyclic rate (avg. 640 RPM) the COMPAK-16 seems to score consistantly better in terms of lethal hits in that mode.  My CSM scored better with it too, BTW. At least that's our experience.  I know my COMPAK-configured M-4 is far more controllable than when in issue configuration -- and a good deal more accurate in FA, besides.  Please don't ask for precise numbers there -- I only know know that on the qualification and CQB ranges the COMPAK fares much better in both our hands.  Anyway, thanks for the test; you're doing the Forum a great service.  

OT, but some vendor out there just donated some BUIS for our newly received M16A4s.  Can't recall who, as  they just arrived Friday at my S-4 shop, but whoever you are -- thanks to you, too!
 

Sorry I haven't posted, Weather has sucked here!!! Got out and shot different ammo(XM193) and will get all of the tests posted. I have to get all of the averages together before I post. The upper is the latest Gain Twist. I will be out for a few days but i will update everything.
Cbris Bell

Quoted: Sorry I haven't posted, Weather has sucked here!!! Got out and shot different ammo(XM193) and will get all of the tests posted. I have to get all of the averages together before I post. The upper is the latest Gain Twist. I will be out for a few days but i will update everything. Cbris Bell

cbell,

Again, appreciate your input and keeping this thread alive.  

What I find really perplexing is that mach6 chrono'd XM193 around 320 fps faster than the white box 55 grain white box you've chrono'd so far.  I'm really curious to how XM193 load will chrono through your barrel once you geta round to it.  

I understand that white box is downloaded from XM193, so assuming white box trails XM193 by 200 fps or so, there's still a 120 fps delta to explain.  That's a significant amount, more than I would attribute to fast vs slow barrels from within a mfg's product line.  Both of you maintain you've chrono'd your loads/your barrel, so we're not having to contend with gunwriter and/or mfg claims hype -- chrono's don't lie.  But after reading the gunwriter's and mfg's claims, and if after the fact your barrel with XM193 remains 120 fps or more slower than mach6's, I'd contact Arms Tech and see if they would be willing to rebarrel your weapon.  IMHO, 50-75 fps delta between barrels within a mfg's product line is an acceptable deviation, 120fps isn't.  At that point, something is screwed.

Jmart: As I sent you in the IM the A-T Compak 16 will average about 2690 fps with XM193, as soon as i end up totaling all the strings. The 10.3" is about 2770 fps avg. with XM193. The 9.5" Professional Ord. upper will be about 2675 fps avg. as well. I have to get back to the shop and and add all of the strings then give you guys good hard numbers. I chrono'd 10-5 shot strings from each upper with XM193 because I wanted to get my numbers from a larger pool. The A-T Compak 16 upper is in fine shape, have no desire to send it back, it performs just like reported by Mach6 and velocities right where the other 9.5" barrel is. If anyone wishes to shoot this upper and test the results for themselves, I will have it at the MODCC shoot avdertised on the Missouri Homepage on 26 Feb.
Thanks for flollowing the thread
Chris Bell

I wonder  if it's worth a try to get Joe R. & the Gang at AT LTD to consider the slightly faster 1:7 ROT for this barrel.  efinitely should keep the progressive gain twist polygonal bore feature. I just informally fired some issue 77 gr. MK 262.  It functioned fine and as always, the weapon was again, extremely controllable.  Also, no FTEs, FTFs.  This seems to be the norm with the COMPAK-16, regardless of whatever ammo I feed this puppy.   Again, more hits especially on on select-fire than when I put the M-4A1 upper back on.  As it wqas a CQB course of fire, I could get any real sensing for an absolute accuracy delta between the two uppers with this ammo.  Wish I had the time to see how the MK262 empirically poerformed for accuracy with this barrel, but it's time to redeploy home.  Maybe  I'll try the Black Hills commercial stuff back on the block.   Anyway, thanks Joe -- this upper is an absolute keeper.

No.  I just spent the weekend with Joe and he is sold on the 1-9 as he does it, his rifling imparts a faster spin than a normal 1-9.  He is planning to make a civilian version when he gets ATF approval and he thinks it will be pretty soon.  He is expecting another fairly big foreign military contract soon and has added a dozen work stations in the factory.  We spent the evening shooting his new Ruger 22 with his new really advanced silencer.  I've shot a lot of silenced weapons and his stuff beats them all.  He and my wife are good friends and he sold her #1 of the new semi-auto version so she can give it to me as a birthday present.

Good. Well, I hope the civilian model has at least a kosher barrel length so the Vortex doesn't have to be permanently attached. Will the civilian-legal one have a slightly less heavy barrel than the recon Rifle? Give him my regards.

I don't know, I've known him for so long I can see him think and he was designing my rifle as he was on the phone with my wife.  He said that I will like what they came up with.  And, you know I will.

I got the impression from talking to him that the civilian version will utilize the 14.0" barrel with a permanently attached FH to make the 16.1" length.  Same contour -- heavy fluted barrel.  What he was pretty adamant abount was no rate of twist changes.  That's a pretty costly change for them.

I should know soon because I'll have one.

Quoted: I got the impression from talking to him that the civilian version will utilize the 14.0" barrel with a permanently attached FH to make the 16.1" length.  Same contour -- heavy fluted barrel.  What he was pretty adamant abount was no rate of twist changes.  That's a pretty costly change for them.

------
Permanently attached Vortex?  Oh, well.

Was the higher FPS the factory says should happen (or the magazine said should happen) measured with the freebore boost from the can on it? Chris were you using the suppressor when you took the measurements?

Kel

Quoted: Was the higher FPS the factory says should happen (or the magazine said should happen) measured with the freebore boost from the can on it? Chris were you using the suppressor when you took the measurements? Kel

Looking at the article, there's no mention of testing it with the can.  They acknowledge that a can exists, but they said they would test it later.  Also, they include unsuppressed sound pressure level numbers (162 dB with XM193 and M855), but there's no telling if that was measured by the author or just some factory-supplied numbers regurgitated by the author.

Kel, these were performed without a suppressor. I sent you an email with more details and opinions.  
Chris Bell

Couple things:

Do they fit a standard lower?

How much?

Quoted: Couple things: Do they fit a standard lower? How much?

Not sure how much.  No uppers are sold, just complete rifles.

DefTech said they sold uppers to police.  I figure I'll call and ask.  Will let you know.

Quoted: DefTech said they sold uppers to police.  I figure I'll call and ask.  Will let you know.

Maybe LE/MIL sales are different.  When I asked Joe a couple of weeks ago about selling just the upper for a Recon Rifle, he said they had no plans to do that.  That comment was made during a conversation about Arms Tech's sales policies once they obtained BATF approval for a civilian version of the Recon Rifle.  I asked him if they would sell just uppers or just barrels/gas traps/gas tubes -- his answer to both questions was "No, we are looking to sell only complete rifles".

Just got off the phone with armstech.  Says they're thinking about a civilian version of the rifle and upper.  He said, at the earliest, it would be late summer.

I'd say they might step it up if enough people called expressing interest in one.  So, get on the horn and call them at 602-272-9045 to ask about them

No matter what I get #1.

I think Arms Tek is missing the boat not selling uppers - they don't need all the alphabet approvals and way less liability (from a legal perspective).   They could be on the market now instead of late summer / early fall - holy smokes - the dem's might pass some new gun BS laws by that time - they should get the lead out!  I would really be interested in a 14.5+ 1.5" flash sup and a 18" upper - that would really maximize the .223 velocity!  Ideally, the longer barrels would progress to a 1 in 9 twist to stabilize the heavier (longer range) bullets.   The longer barrel version would be very interesting in 6.5 Grendel or 6.8 - as well.

This is a real kick butt product - open the gates!!!! We want to buy!

I will pass all of this along to Joe.  He is thinking much better after his divorce.

Quoted: I will pass all of this along to Joe.  He is thinking much better after his divorce.

When you talk to him, can you find out if he has a velocity spec for each barrel length (9.5" and 14.0")using both XM193 and M855?  The guns sound cool, but the velocities reported above fall a bit under what I was expecting.  I'd just like to know what his spec is for selloff to his govt contract customers.

Sounds good, I'm curious myself.  Boy oh boy, it was great holding one of those baby's though.  I also got my first look at his takedown rifle, the new one that the barrel has small sections that screw in to the lands and grooves perfectly.

Quoted: M-4 is just too big. Know what I mean?  BTW, the Bundeswehr guys that played with it yesterday also really went nuts for the Vortex flash hider on this thing, too.  We were shooting close to about 1630 hrs and it was getting dark.  The open straight flute flash hiders on their short-barreled G-36K's didn't seem to do all that much and the Vortex proved to be far more efficient.  We all used BW GI 5.56mm. Going to Huachuca, eh? Are you an MI guy as well?

Hey I own a lot of Vortexes and they are my favorite hider, but I don't believe they work significantly better than an HK fluted hider. If you had lower flash I bet the gas trap was helping with that.

tagged