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Posted: 11/19/2005 4:20:16 PM EDT
[#1]
You will be fine without them. They do help in some rare instances though not likely ones that you are going to ever encounter.
If they happen to come on the model you want they great but it should not make or break the purchase. What I would avoid however are any dremmeled ramps in the receiver. If you are going to get a rifle with M4 ramps make sure it is with a factory M4 barrel extension mated to a machined M4 upper. |
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Posted: 11/19/2005 4:21:55 PM EDT
[#2]
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Posted: 11/19/2005 5:23:49 PM EDT
[#3]
How about I help it stay short-
WHY DON'T YOU  SEARCH!?!?!?!?!??!
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Posted: 11/19/2005 5:30:14 PM EDT
[#4]
Blacken the bullets on a magazine load of ammo. Cycle them manually and then note the complete lack of marks on the 'feed ramps' that everybody cherishes so much. Completely useless.
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Posted: 11/19/2005 5:36:44 PM EDT
[#5]
Classy. 
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Posted: 11/19/2005 6:03:22 PM EDT
[#6]
Yea 
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Posted: 11/19/2005 6:27:30 PM EDT
[#7]
Dude He is new, relax and help him out.
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Posted: 11/19/2005 6:31:56 PM EDT
[#8]
Probably because the search function sucks unless your a paid member. Oh, and you're not a very good salesman... |
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Posted: 11/19/2005 9:03:08 PM EDT
[#9]
You are the epitome of someone who doesn't understand what the M4 feedramps are for. Cycling rounds manually in an M4 will even show you that they are not necessary by your testing. Try and use the US ARMY testing methods where you dump a 30 round mag and you might learn something. It has to do with the rounds being fired faster than they can be forced up to the "tippy-top" of the magazine against the feed lips. When they aren't fully pushed up against the feedlips and the BCG tries to strip one while pushing it forward, the nose can be slammed into the flat-faced meat of the lower and cause a feeding problem. The ramps are just relief cuts so the bullets don't have anything to strike dead-on. As for the rest of you having problems with being new or using the search function, that's what being a paid member is for. It's not hard to type the word "feedramp" into the search page without f*cking up. That's all you have to do. You might not be able to search 10 times in 5 seconds, but it should only take one word and one click of the button. |
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Posted: 11/19/2005 9:11:13 PM EDT
[#10]
I appreciate your tolerance of my ignorance on the matter, but if I insert a GI magazine into my lower, the top of the magazine physically prevents the bullet tips from coming close to the upper receiver, only the barrel extension. I suppose that if you had severely worn magazines or an exponentially out-of-spec gun, you could end up with this problem occasionally. The concern here is that if it's a common problem, the nose of the bullet will dig into the aluminum soon enough anyhow. It's just cosmetic as far as I'm concerned. BTW, yes I do understand, I just happen to disagree. I don't appreciate your condescending tone. |
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Posted: 11/19/2005 9:20:37 PM EDT
[#11]
you are right and you understand more than anyone else every could. everyone else including those who developed the feedramps is wrong. do you still hear a tone or are you inferring an attitude?
Since you understand their intended use so well that you have been able to conclude yourself that they are actually unnecessary, could you please explain to these folks what exactly they are for (whether you believe in them or not) since they won't find it in the linked thread (without having to read all 12 pages in another link.) It's funny how that linked thread has a bunch of non-noobs suggesting the same thing- search or take the time to look. |
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Posted: 11/19/2005 9:39:21 PM EDT
[#12]
Hey asshole...I've searched for tons of things on here in the last few days. Sorry I missed one.....if you didn't want to answer my question...why did you click on it? I wonder....did you become a paying member the first week you were on the board? Sorry I havn't done that yet...... anyways, I do appreciate the information and the link. Most gun and car boards I've belonged too over the last 10 years or so would have banned you just off your stupid post tough guy. I will try to make sure that I try and search for stuff first though.... |
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Posted: 11/19/2005 9:52:13 PM EDT
[#13]
Yep, they were wrong. I read the M4 thread a few months back. Nothing has changed. At that time, I actually watched what happens. It's impossible for the nose of the bullet in a standard, within-spec M4 or M16 gun to strike the lower receiver... PERIOD. End of story unless you just believe those at Colt (or whoever designed this) are infallible. I continue to think it's cosmetic.
Are you trying to be condescending or does it just come naturally. 12.5 million. That's the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin, but I'll bite. There is no purpose for the ramps to be on the upper receiver. Neither was there a reason for Stoner's original buffer system... What? Gene Stoner was wrong about something? Must mean that engineers in general can be wrong. There is a need for a spring-loaded firing pin which is much more important than the 'need' for the M4 feed ramps, so why isn't the spring-loaded firing pin there? Why don't M4's have a relieved lug opposite the extractor? It's fact that the bolt lugs next to the extractor fail most often and do so because the lug opposite the extractor overstresses them. Why didn't they relieve the lug? Maybe because it's counter-intuitive that a 6-lugged bolt with symetrical-bearing is stronger than a 7-lugged bolt. Maybe the feed ramps are there because it's intuitive that they should be there. Wrong, yes, but still intuitive. Why do useless things when important things can be done in their stead? It's so that people like yourself have something to argue about without first thinking about the situation. Ahhh, that felt good. Flame away. Sorry if I hijacked the thread but it's certainly more exciting than rereading that 12-pages was.
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Posted: 11/19/2005 9:56:23 PM EDT
[#14]
Yeah, AR15.com lets a LOT of crude personal attacks get by. You have to have TOUGH skin around here. Unless you're asking about something REALLY brilliant, you'll get a few condescending and rude posters, regardless. Just ignore them. Welcome to the board. To answer your question, the M4 is newer, so the M4 feedramps were incorporated in the design package. The M16 design package was not altered to update it with this "upgrade." That's why the M16 doesn't have M4 feedramps, and probably never will. I agree with the above poster who stated "fine if it's got them, fine if it doesn't. Just don't get a rifle with a jacked up barrel extension and upper receiver by someone who WANTED M4 feedramps, but didn't have them." |
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Posted: 11/19/2005 10:07:27 PM EDT
[#15]
Thanks...yeah thats what I'm worried about...I read that 12 page post about the ramps. But I see tons of manufactures of these uppers advertising them as having m4 feedramps....not sure how I'll be able to tell if it has dremeled ramps without seeing it in person. And that won't be possible where I live...no gun shops stock uppers or ar's for that matter. |
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Posted: 11/19/2005 10:19:20 PM EDT
[#16]
I read quite a bit in the tech forums, and your responses are always unpleasant. Please try to share your knowledge in a more informative, and polite way. |
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Posted: 11/19/2005 10:29:04 PM EDT
[#17]
order you one from a dealer on the board. Just ask them your question. They wont do you wrong. |
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Posted: 11/19/2005 10:29:51 PM EDT
[#18]
dremeled lips are silver in color, stock m4 ramps will be the color of the receiver. |
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Posted: 11/20/2005 12:40:52 AM EDT
[#20]
Some of the new Colt carbines being sold now have shiney ramps cut. They do have the correct barrel extension in place, though. |
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Posted: 11/20/2005 1:11:57 AM EDT
[#21]
ahh, did not know that....good job! 
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Posted: 11/20/2005 1:56:06 AM EDT
[#22]
the need for the M4 ramps was discovered during endurance testing performed prior to the adoption of the M4, The higher cyclic rate combined with the nose heavy (heavier) profile of the M855 caused occasional low feeds. It's a .mil thing, not a COLT thing.
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Posted: 11/20/2005 4:24:59 AM EDT
[#23]
I have two carbines, one with M4 cuts, the other without them. I was shooting at the range with both guns. I had one magazine with a bent baseplate and when I tried that one on the carbine without M4 cuts it would jam. The same magazine in the carbine with M4 cuts would feed fine.
Guess which one is my SHTF carbine? |
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Posted: 11/20/2005 5:03:33 AM EDT
[#24]
I'm honestly not giving you a hard time but he is a new guy and it would have been a hellava lot easier/nicer to just tell him to try a search before posting and that if he could not find it then post a question. I really don't understand the purpose of being so ignorant to a fellow gun owner. One of the biggest reasons that I am so proud to be a gun owner is because in my experience they are the nicest and most helpful group of people I have ever met. Let's keep it that way |
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Posted: 11/20/2005 5:10:57 AM EDT
[#25]
+1 Here. Must just be having a bad day ..... |
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Posted: 11/20/2005 5:52:29 AM EDT
[#26]
Lighten up Francis. |
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Posted: 11/20/2005 6:09:48 AM EDT
[#27]
You don't need feedramps unless you're running a full auto M4. Most of the guys here want them because the military has them. This "necessity"
was picked up on by a few marketing geniuses who have made it a point to advertise the hell out of this "crucial" feature. So, if you have a FA lower, you might need them. Odds are slim that you'll see any real benefit with a semi-only rifle. edit: Pay no attention to the assholes. I was at a class III dealer's on Friday picking up a few odds and ends. This site was mentioned and as the benefits came up time and time again, the overwhelming negatives mentioned centered around the attitudes of members and their reluctance to answer newb quesions without coming unglued. Just FYI...you'll learn more objective data by researching tacked threads. Welcome aboard! |
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Posted: 11/20/2005 6:49:06 AM EDT
[#28]
As mentioned earlier by Tweak, the feedramps are designed to accept bullets that the gun is trying to feed into the chamber, when they are bouncing around inside the top of the mag on the last few rounds during full-auto fire. This has been shown on high-speed video.
However, the root of the problem is carbine overcycling, and it causes the gun to cycle so fast that the mag spring has a hard time keeping up when it is only compressed by a few rounds. Apparently, instead of recognizing the root of the problem, and doing something to correct it, they cut some feedramps that could help to solve the problem's symptom. There is some conjecture that Colt was desperate to find something different enough from the M16 design, to get patenting on the M4(which they desperately needed), and it seems that was enough to get it. The "real fix" for this problem is to return the gun's cycling speeds to normal, and voila'. The problem goes away. This can be done by several methods, and the most common and popular one is to use a heavier buffer. If you use a heavy buffer to slow the cyclic rate back to normal, you'll never need an M4 feed ramp. It will also be a good idea to use magazines that don't have bent-down feed lips which will change the feed angle in a bad way. It will not hurt you to have M4 feedramps in your gun. Probably won't help you either, if your gun is running at the correct speed. |
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Posted: 11/20/2005 6:55:03 AM EDT
[#29]
Whitesmoke,
First off, Welcome. Don't let the assholes scare you off! JosephR gave you the right answer , even though he was an asshat in his methods. A few other members hit the nail on the head as well. It's just one of those reliability factors that may or may never be an issue for you. I agree with buying an AR from the EE, the dealers here are top notch and will never screw you over. Can't say that about gun shops or gun shows! Enjoy, and welcome to the team. Oh BTW Team memberships are only $26.00 and are of great benefit. |
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Posted: 11/20/2005 8:03:06 AM EDT
[#30]
I'll have to apologize for not putting a smiley on my first and VERY rude post. I actually wanted to post one of the "Google Motherfucker" or "Search N00B" captioned pictures that are always posted. But, I wasn't sure which ones or where I had them stored so I didn't.
I know you guys can take a "F*ck" or "MotherF*cker" once in awhile and didn't think it would offend so many people. I have nothing against new members willing to learn. Just ask Blanco_Diablo- he's definitely not new anymore but seems to be relearning the same shit everyday. He and I didn't start off on the right foot the first day but after I did a lot of explaining to him of what makes an M4 an M4, he started to listen and appreciate and I in turn appreciate that. Now that we all know that M4 feedramps ARE necessary (whether it's a fix or a bandaid) in the firearms they were intended for AND we know why they weren't included as spec on M16s, can we all be happy?? BadgerArms- you are obviously just arrogant. You show that very well now that you try and prove how you personally have proved or disproved any reasons that part A or part B was used in the AR platform. In response to your bolt and lug "observations"- LMT makes an enhanced bolt and supposedly KAC does as well. I'm not sure what exactly they've incorporated into them but the lugs are shaped differently and I'm not sure if that is how you mean "relieved" or not... oh, here it is: 
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Posted: 11/20/2005 8:08:54 AM EDT
[#31]
JosephR -- PM inbound.
Secondly M4 feedramps are NOT just a full auto issue. It has to do with bolt carrier group velocity. The fact you are firing in semi or full auto does not change the individual cylic speed of the BCG. 1.) Adding them will not hurt (unless it is DIY dremel disaster), perhaps factory M4 feedramps will not hurt is a better comment. 2.) ANY longer bullet (than M193 55gr FMJ) will benifit from M4 Feedramps, less damage to the round on chamering. 3.) Short Barreled Carbine and M4 Carbines will especially benifit due to the hight bolt velocities (than rifle) in their cycling sequence. 4.) Suppressed weapons (who's cyclic is even higher) will benifit. |
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Posted: 11/20/2005 8:22:54 AM EDT
[#32]
Right on... and the highspeed video camera is the best development tool in ages. The M4 simply runs faster than the magazine can get the next round ready -- exacerbated during the first few and the last few rounds (due to the weight of the bullet stack and the harmonics of the mag spring, respectivly). Anyone that tells you that you need them on anything other than an "out of spec" gun is most likely wrong -- anyone that tells you that you do not need them on the same gun, does not understand the mechanics of how the gun works. The simple way to shut them up is to tel them to put a non-feedramp barrel in a feedramp cut upper and run a 30 round mag FA.... of course they will say it can not be done the gun will jam! Of course it will, it will jam when the tip of the bullet gets caught uner the non-feedramp cut extension, actaully in the feedramps cut in the receiver. Bottom line, they help more than hurt... The M4Ward (midlength gas-system M4) has them, even though it runs like a clock... |
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Posted: 11/20/2005 8:32:09 AM EDT
[#33]
That is what I always said, and conventional wisdom would support this, but when I was developing the m4ward, I had the chance to get a lot of test and hsvid results, one of the comments that I thought was weird was that they noticed an increase in cyclic rate of the M4 during a prolonged firing string... sure 'nuff, the video certainly seems to support this (while it is not significant, it is interesting). |
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Posted: 11/20/2005 9:22:28 AM EDT
[#34]
I've never heard the term M4Ward, seriously. Is this the midlength gas system that takes carbine handgaurds that someone here on these boards has frankensteined together (I heard about it a looong time ago and it has come up again in another thread.) ??
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Posted: 11/20/2005 9:42:49 AM EDT
[#35]
A lot of the issue in ROF increase and decrease in FA is the magasine and follower.
Dirty/Clean, wet/dry - all will affect the BCG velocity as well. |
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Posted: 11/20/2005 10:31:25 AM EDT
[#36]
How ironic. |
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Posted: 11/20/2005 1:22:44 PM EDT
[#37]
Funny you see it that way. I'm the one trying to tell you that there are smarter people out there that HAVE found a reason for taking the time to incorporate feedramps on certain weapons. You are the one assuming that since you don't see a reason for them as far as you can tell, that they aren't necessary. You hold the position that you've "been there done that" with the M4 feedramp issue and that you have proven to yourself that they aren't necessary. You think that because they couldn't possibly benefit you that they couldn't possibly benefit anyone else or their rifles. That IS arrogance. |
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Posted: 11/20/2005 2:23:32 PM EDT
[#38]
Okay.
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Posted: 11/20/2005 2:30:57 PM EDT
[#39]
I don't have M4 ramps on any of my ARs...never had any problems...
With that being said, will the M4 feedramps be covered up by the front of the magazine when the mag is installed? If they are, than whats the point of them? |
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Posted: 11/20/2005 2:43:54 PM EDT
[#40]
IBTL
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Posted: 11/20/2005 3:07:52 PM EDT
[#42]
IBTL = In Before The Lock
Commonly posted on message boards when the thread has gotten out of hand and is on its way to getting locked by a moderator. |
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Posted: 11/20/2005 3:09:33 PM EDT
[#43]
I'll be nice, since I'm new here too.
IBTL=In Before The Lock. Seems like they think this thread will get ugly and the Mods will lock it down. Couple of "Seniors" slugging it out and flaming each other then the mods will lock it. Welcome aboard and keep your head down. As in any board, read all the stickied junk first then ask. You'll get good advice as well as a couple of flames. I just put on the asbestos and ask away! FH |
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Posted: 11/20/2005 3:12:09 PM EDT
[#44]
I put some JB Weld on my ramps to make 'em smaller...
I love a challenge!
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Posted: 11/20/2005 3:12:20 PM EDT
[#45]
Dang eborgen...that was quick on the reply! Got me while I was still typing.
Great thread on Acronyms that will answer a lot of questions on what folks are saying. FH |
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Posted: 11/20/2005 3:13:36 PM EDT
[#46]
"IBTL" stands for "In Before The Lock" and indicates that someone thinks this thread will be locked-probably because of the lack of civility on the part of some of the posters.
The thing that hasn't been properly mentioned about what M4 feedramps help with-though it has been almost mentioned-is the fact that a carbine gas system is much faster than a rifle gas system. The gas port on a "carbine length" barrel is really close to the chamber when compared to the port on a 20" rifle barrel, so the gas impulse 1) happens earlier in the cycle, 2) is more intense because it comes from closer to the chamber and 3) is more abrupt or sharper. All three of these combine to make for a very harsh gas operation. Combine that with a robust recoil spring, and you're going to have the bolt carrier flying back and forth VERY FAST. As noted, the magazine spring is designed for a specific minimum cycle time, so if you creep below that time, the round on top of the mag won't quite be all the way up and may need some guidance. A "midlength" carbine gas system, on the other hand, doesn't have the same intensity and harshness as the carbine length system, and is generally regarded as being much easier on both rifle and shooter. In a midlength, the port is much farther forward than in a carbine length system. I believe it's basically the same distance from the muzzle as the port on a 20" barrel, but that may be off by a bit. In any case, as the gas in a midlength system comes from farther down the barrel, its impulse comes later and at a somewhat lower pressure than in a carbine, and thus is less abrupt and harsh. (Yes, I have a middie.  )
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Posted: 11/20/2005 4:03:15 PM EDT
[#47]
I have heard but cannot confirm that the SPR versions also use M4 ramps due to the dedicated use of the 77 grain ammo.
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Posted: 11/20/2005 4:19:04 PM EDT
[#48]
Midlength gas ports are 2" farther forward than carbine.
Are the 77 grain rounds longer? |
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Posted: 11/20/2005 4:28:41 PM EDT
[#49]
I have a BM barrel with the M4 barrel extension mated to a non-M4 feed ramp cut upper, and it runs perfectly. I think the other way around would cause jams (non-M4 barrel extension mated to an upper with the M4 cuts).
My other three AR's have standard barrel extensions and uppers and I have yet to experience a stoppage caused by this setup. |
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Posted: 11/20/2005 5:18:24 PM EDT
[#50]
most people don't experience any problems without them. Many guys with registered DIASs or LLs don't even have problems. But, they are there so when the thousands upon thousands of troops who continually do fire full auto would have encountered a problem, it simply doesn't happen. -Not that it eliminates all problems, but it is a solution to a specific problem and it would be stupid not to utilize it.
For those of you who think M4 feedramps on civilian guns is stupid, so is the chrome lining and the '203 relief cut, but you still love 'em anyway, right? I don't think any of us really want to live in a world where we cannot get any of the "neat" little things the military gets if we want them. The point is we should be happy that it's just yet one more thing we don't need that we are offered. I don't need a bayonet lug but because military rifles feature them, it was easier to find a FSB with one included. So, when I do get a bayonet, I can charge around the living room with it attached now... |
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