Big ammo problem. What do you guys think?

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Big ammo problem. What do you guys think?

Posted: 3/17/2006 8:59:58 PM EDT

Alright I just recently got my Stag 16" M4.

Bought the upper complete and built the rest myself. Fired 90 WWB 55gr FMJ through it perfectly. Cleaned and lubed afterwards. I go down to the indoor range that just recently opened where I have to buy their stuff.

So they give me 60 rounds of Winchester USA 55gr FMJ 5.56mm. The Q3131.

First couple rounds fire fine, and then after that, after every round, I have to pull the charging handle. It just refuses to cycle another round into the chamber. Jammed ALOT too. Took it to the gunsmith there, he stripped it, oiled it, said it looked perfectly fine.

He tried one last thing, where he put a little oil on the 4 rounds left and they shot fine...

My gun is chambered for 5.56mm. So I go back to the desk and ask for different ammo. Luckily, he found some Federal American Eagle .223 55gt FMJ. Shot flawlessly.

YET, the next guy after me came in with a RRA Carbine, using that Q3131, and it shot fine, yet I bought 3 boxes and had nothing but trouble.

Why? My gun HATES that stuff.

Here is a pic. To recap, Q3131 shot the worst I have ever seen. Switched over to the American Eagle making no changes to the rifle, and shot 40 rounds flawlessly.

dubisteinspundloch.com/DSCF4898.JPG

ETA - Update on page 2. Still doing it, but American Eagle shot fine, yet didn't lock the bolt back after the last shot. It locked back fine after I pulled the charging handle. So it's not the mag. The bolt just didn't go back far enough.

Posted: 3/17/2006 9:06:11 PM EDT

[#1]

Bad lot of ammo?

I haven't had any problems with 2004 to 2005 mfg Winchester Q3131, but my boxes look a little different than your Winchester box does. Are you certain that they did not bait and switch you with some reloads in Winchester boxes?

Posted: 3/17/2006 9:08:05 PM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:
Bad lot of ammo?

I haven't had any problems with 2004 to 2005 mfg Winchester Q3131, but my boxes look a little different than your Winchester box does. Are you certain that they did not bait and switch you with some reloads in Winchester boxes?

That's what I thought.

But a guy came in like 30 mins after me, and bought like 4 boxes. They all shot fine.

I bought 3 boxes and none of them would cycle.

Posted: 3/17/2006 9:08:56 PM EDT

[#3]

What does the indoor range charge for 20 rounds of ammo? Boxes look different than my Q3131 too.

Posted: 3/17/2006 9:10:42 PM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:
What does the indoor range charge for 20 rounds of ammo? Boxes look different than my Q3131 too.

$6.

Flat price. Cost the same for both boxes. I get 10% off so go figure :-/

Posted: 3/17/2006 9:15:14 PM EDT

[#5]

That box doesn't look at all like my Q3131 boxes. Do you have a pic of the end of the box?

TS

Posted: 3/17/2006 9:15:58 PM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:
That box doesn't look at all like my Q3131 boxes. Do you have a pic of the end of the box?

TS

Let me take one real fast

Posted: 3/17/2006 9:19:30 PM EDT

[#7]

dubisteinspundloch.com/DSCF4900.JPG

Posted: 3/17/2006 9:21:56 PM EDT

[#8]

Whats on the headstamp?

Posted: 3/17/2006 9:22:03 PM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:
That box doesn't look at all like my Q3131 boxes. Do you have a pic of the end of the box?

TS

ditto. Mine has the horse & rider fairly centered over the name winchester and some warnings on the top of the box, all the caliber info is on the end of the box. Lot # wk10 purchased about a month ago in Anchorage.

Posted: 3/17/2006 9:25:10 PM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:
Whats on the headstamp?

Box is empty. I shot what I could and threw away all the dented rounds from poor cycling.

Posted: 3/17/2006 9:28:43 PM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:
Quoted:
That box doesn't look at all like my Q3131 boxes. Do you have a pic of the end of the box?

TS
ditto. Mine has the horse & rider fairly centered over the name winchester and some warnings on the top of the box, all the caliber info is on the end of the box. Lot # wk10 purchased about a month ago in Anchorage.

I have the same box you have, yelimak. That box looks like the old Q3131.

TS

Posted: 3/17/2006 9:30:12 PM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
That box doesn't look at all like my Q3131 boxes. Do you have a pic of the end of the box?

TS
ditto. Mine has the horse & rider fairly centered over the name winchester and some warnings on the top of the box, all the caliber info is on the end of the box. Lot # wk10 purchased about a month ago in Anchorage.

I have the same box you have, yelimak. That box looks like the old Q3131.

TS

I'll try it again if I see a different kind of box labeling, but it's still weird that the other AR guy shot the stuff fine.

Posted: 3/17/2006 9:32:01 PM EDT

[#13]

I had the same problem last weekend with my Stag upper. It started off not feeding correctly, then it would short stroke. The carrier key looked fine. The night before I took the fsb off to install a YHM rail. I thought this might be the problem.

It turned out that the carbine buffer spring had too many coils on it. On the end of the spring where the coils are compressed, there were three full coils on each end. I swapped it with a spring that only had 2 coils on each end. 210 rounds later, and not one problem.

The spring on the bottom is the one that works. The coils in the middle of the spring also seem to be spaced closer together. The bottom spring is about 1/4" shorter than the spring on top.

Posted: 3/17/2006 9:39:36 PM EDT

[#14]

Here's the end of mine.

dubisteinspundloch.com/DSCF4904.JPG

This is the 3rd type of ammo I have shot though, and the only one that has given my trouble.

ETA - The other end actually looks almost like your top pic

Posted: 3/17/2006 9:50:07 PM EDT

[#15]

I am going to cut one coil off of the top spring in the bottom picture and see if the gun works with it. You might want to look into getting another buffer spring or taking a coil off. The strange thing is that problem spring worked fine in another rifle.

Posted: 3/18/2006 9:55:07 AM EDT

[#16]

Buy one of the ISMI springs from C4Grant. the spring will likely outlast your rifle. Wont take a set and lose any of its length like standard springs.

Posted: 3/18/2006 3:43:35 PM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:
That box doesn't look at all like my Q3131 boxes. Do you have a pic of the end of the box?

TS

Hmm, I just bought 10 boxes of Q3131 at the Mesa AZ gun show today that look identical to his picture.

Posted: 3/18/2006 4:17:08 PM EDT

[#18]

I think those boxes were used for Q3131 in mid 1990's, if I recall correctly. They replaced the ones from early 90's that had the stars around winchester but no horse and rider.

Posted: 3/18/2006 7:45:18 PM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:
Buy one of the ISMI springs from C4Grant. the spring will likely outlast your rifle. Wont take a set and lose any of its length like standard springs.

I was going to say the same thing.

Posted: 3/19/2006 12:34:34 AM EDT

[#20]

Your upper is fucked up?

Posted: 3/19/2006 7:19:14 AM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:
Buy one of the ISMI springs from C4Grant. the spring will likely outlast your rifle. Wont take a set and lose any of its length like standard springs.

I would advise against this.....Putting an extra power buffer spring in a gun that is short stroking is just going to make the problem worse.

M4A1,

What kind of buffer and buffer spring are you running in the gun right now? The problem sounds like a carrier key problem. If I'm understanding you correctly, you shot the American Eagle .223 AFTER you shot the Q3131.....The American Eagle shoots fine, while the Q3131 was short stroking every round.....is this correct?

If this is the caes, I would chalk it up to the ammo and not the gun.

Posted: 3/19/2006 8:52:36 AM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:
Quoted:
That box doesn't look at all like my Q3131 boxes. Do you have a pic of the end of the box?

TS

Hmm, I just bought 10 boxes of Q3131 at the Mesa AZ gun show today that look identical to his picture.

There was ammo for sale? Where at, ill go back today and get it. How much was it a box?

So the range is selling 1990's ammo at 2006 prices?

Posted: 3/19/2006 9:44:50 AM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:
What does the indoor range charge for 20 rounds of ammo? Boxes look different than my Q3131 too.

Is there a price for range time or does the ammo purchase cover everything?

Posted: 3/19/2006 2:23:00 PM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:
Quoted:
What does the indoor range charge for 20 rounds of ammo? Boxes look different than my Q3131 too.

Is there a price for range time or does the ammo purchase cover everything?

$15 to get in normally. $7.50 with membership.

$6 per 20 rounds. $5.40 with membership

Posted: 3/19/2006 2:23:56 PM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Buy one of the ISMI springs from C4Grant. the spring will likely outlast your rifle. Wont take a set and lose any of its length like standard springs.

I would advise against this.....Putting an extra power buffer spring in a gun that is short stroking is just going to make the problem worse.

M4A1,

What kind of buffer and buffer spring are you running in the gun right now? The problem sounds like a carrier key problem. If I'm understanding you correctly, you shot the American Eagle .223 AFTER you shot the Q3131.....The American Eagle shoots fine, while the Q3131 was short stroking every round.....is this correct?

If this is the caes, I would chalk it up to the ammo and not the gun.

Yes sir. That's why I'm not worried about it anymore. Gonna go shoot another 20 or so rounds tomorrow with a buddy. We'll see what happens. Gonna use the American Eagle again

Posted: 3/20/2006 4:05:00 AM EDT

[#26]

I have some 1994 Q3131 and the box looks exactly like that.
JR

Posted: 3/20/2006 9:02:55 AM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:
I have some 1994 Q3131 and the box looks exactly like that.
JR

Posted: 3/23/2006 2:00:13 PM EDT

[#28]

Went down again today, and the same thing happened. Kept jamming or not feeding.

Then, I tried the American Eagle and it shot fine, but it didn't lock the bolt back after the last shot was fired. Seems as if the buffer spring isn't allowing the bolt to go all the way back, or it's too tense.

I ordered on of those ISMI springs to give a try with. That way I can also cut down my standard spring a bit, and have a replacement if anything goes wrong.

Posted: 3/23/2006 6:28:20 PM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Buy one of the ISMI springs from C4Grant. the spring will likely outlast your rifle. Wont take a set and lose any of its length like standard springs.

I would advise against this.....Putting an extra power buffer spring in a gun that is short stroking is just going to make the problem worse.

M4A1,

What kind of buffer and buffer spring are you running in the gun right now? The problem sounds like a carrier key problem. If I'm understanding you correctly, you shot the American Eagle .223 AFTER you shot the Q3131.....The American Eagle shoots fine, while the Q3131 was short stroking every round.....is this correct?

If this is the caes, I would chalk it up to the ammo and not the gun.

FYI, the ISMI springs are NOT extra power. They are simply EXTRA quality springs (shot peened, stress relieved).

Posted: 3/25/2006 9:52:41 PM EDT

[#30]

Anything look out of the ordinary?

dubisteinspundloch.com/DSCF4923.JPG

dubisteinspundloch.com/DSCF4924.JPG

I'm going to a different range on Saturday where I can use my own ammo. Going to use the WWB stuff again and see how it performs.

I'm going with another AR buddy so I can probably swap buffers/springs/uppers/lowers/etc until I figure out generally where the problem rides...

I'm going to pick up 3 boxes of that Q3131 stuff that was giving me trouble and see what happens. Got the ISMI spring on the way. Should be here in a few days.

Posted: 3/26/2006 1:52:48 AM EDT

[#31]

you said it is not feeding, where are the cartridges hanging up?
Jesus, I am sooooo missing Tweak right now.

Posted: 3/26/2006 4:43:01 PM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:
you said it is not feeding, where are the cartridges hanging up?
Jesus, I am sooooo missing Tweak right now.

Don't even remember now. I'd say somewhere between the mag and the feedramps. To where the bolt slams on the casing leaving a nice little dent in it.

I'm still puzzled as to why it will work with some ammo and not others. Here is a vide of me shooting American Eagle .223 RIGHT AFTER I was done with the Q3131 that would jam like hell.

I fired 19 rounds, and after the last shot, it didn't hold the bolt back. I pulled the charging handle and it locked back fine, so it's not the mag. As you can see though, it cycled flawlessly...

And I fired 90 maiden rounds through it of WWB .223 and had only ONE problem where the bolt slid over the mag.

video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5848259507363187881&q=m4gery

Posted: 3/26/2006 6:49:34 PM EDT

[#33]

What mags are you using?

Just because it locks back when you pull the bolt back does not mean it will lock back when it is fires. If the mag spring is slow, it won't lock back.

Posted: 3/26/2006 6:56:12 PM EDT

[#34]

Quoted:
What mags are you using?

Just because it locks back when you pull the bolt back does not mean it will lock back when it is fires. If the mag spring is slow, it won't lock back.

I'm pretty sure it locked back fine when I was originally using the WWB ammo.

And they are D&H teflon coated mags from 44mag.com

Here is the latest on the problem...

http://ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=275224

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Big ammo problem. What do you guys think?

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