Well guys we took a prestine condition, Second chance Ultama vest,( Level two) out today and tested the civilian SS192 Hollow Points in it from 7 yards and 15yards.......every shot penetrated the vest completely, and  two thick phone books we had the vest panel taped to.(all made it through the first book,70% made it through the second) we shot the vest 35 times all toll with hits separated so they wouldnt go thought the same place......went thought it like an ice pick goes though styrofoam. The .45 acp control shot penetrated zero layers, the .357 158JHP did 5 layers.So this panel will stop what its rated to stop. I am  quite impressed as this isnt supposed to do this.In later testing(page 6 of this post) we shot the same vest panel with 7.62x25 from a CZ52(penetrated),.44 Magnum from a S&W M29 4"(stopped it) and .45 Winchester Mag from a LAR Grizzly(stopped it)So this panels ability to stop what it was designed to stop is above reproach even though its made of zylon instead of kevlar. It was never subject to the heat /humidity issues that causes zylon to deteriorate.
http://img35.exs.cx/img35/5740/2004-07-20010.jpg
http://img38.exs.cx/img38/6088/2004-07-20009.jpg

http://img31.exs.cx/img31/7354/2004-07-20022.jpg

http://img43.exs.cx/img43/466/2004-07-20021.jpg
note the bend in each of these these recovered bullets.....that is from extreme yaw(tumble) through the phone books after armor penetration

Wheres GT distributors at in Austin?  Thats a lot closer to me than FT Worth.

Quoted: Sie werden Ihre FN fünf sieben Pistole, es schießt mögen, obwohl einschult, und legt Verschwendung zu Wikingerdörfern! (you will like your FN five seven pistol,  it shoots through schools and lays waste to viking villages):)

Ummm. No.

Sie werden ihre FN fuenf sieben Pistole moegen; sie schiesst durch Schulen and verschwendet Wikingerdoerfer.

Congrats on your new FN    and yes that rail is a "picatinny rail" the same as a.r.m.s. forearms and the like for AR15's

and as we allways say...

Sie werden Ihre FN fünf sieben Pistole, es schießt mögen, obwohl einschult, und legt Verschwendung zu Wikingerdörfern!
(you will like your FN five seven pistol,  it shoots through schools and lays waste to viking villages):)

Say Beerswimmer..what genereal part of tx are you in(DFW in my case) ? GT distributers down in Austin will have 20 rounders and Cheaper than dirt in Fort Worth(the showroom, NOT the mail order part of the business, as they are owned by different people thse days. the showroom owner is class III and is a FN LEO dealer and last I looked a couple of weeks ago had 20's sitting in a glass display case with other LEO magazines...and P90 mags.

Just bought one!  IOM with the 3 ten round mags.  Plus a box of 50 rnds.  Probably go and shoot it Tuesday!  The owners manual is what all gun manufacturers should be like.  Very simple with excellent photos.  

tagged

Been wanting one of these for a long time now.  Finally some good first hand experience!  But I have always had one question,  what lights or lasers are offered for it, and where to get them?  To be mounted on the rail provided.  Thanks!  

Probably going to get one Friday!

Im going to be using a streamlight M6X, Ill post pics whenever I get around to buying it.

Cool, thanks!

Damn, I just read the ENTIRE thread.........

Thank you for taking the time to post a reply to my questions about the Five Seven!  I have seen a less expensive method for testing bullets offered by Corbin (the bullet swage guys).  Check it out at www.bulletswage.com.  I only mention it as it looks like a good way to waste an afternoon.  Plus you get to play with blocks of goo, which is it's own reward.  I think they might throw in a white coat and a pocket protector, if you ask nicely.  You have to supply your own tape for your glasses, however.

Seriously,
Thanks for posting your "vest test".

Cheese

Quoted: Yup, let me know if you can find a onlin dealer with adecent price, Im not going to pay $50 a mag when they were almost $20 cheaper a month ago.

cmmginc has them on backorder for $36  cmmginc.secure-mall.com/shop/index.php?shop=1&cart=22611&cat=17&

FB

I made it explicitly clear that there was no way to predict the persons emotional response.  Did you have trouble understanding my simple English, or could you just not find anything valid to criticize me on, other than pretending to misunderstand?

Anyway, the .233 remington at 67 yards would cause the absolute largest wound cavity of any available firearms...while the 5.7 would cause (nearly) the smallest absolute cavity unless you start looking at like 4.6mm pin shooters.  And you try to compare them.  Right...

Your real world data is absolutely useless when you lack the physics knowledge to apply it and understand what the data means.  I just hope that you don't mislead too many people with your uneducated statements...if you aren't willing to look at your data from a scientific perspective, then I guess there is nothing I can really do for you.

I understand fully.... be that as it may ,you are hereby given a criminal tresspass warning, if you return to this property you could be subject to arrest . Do you understand the warning you have just been given?The door is over to the right..mach snell(and dont make me come back here tonight ,and keep the music down) or thats how we say it in the real world.....Here its , one more time for the thick headed GO GET YOUR OWN THREAD.

How well does the Five Seven group?  Do you find it accurate?  How is the trigger pull and the position of the safety?   Where is the safety, for that matter?  Finally, one last question- FN's site lists it as a "delayed blowback"?  What does that mean- is it a locked breech weapon or a "blowback"?

Thanks,
Cheese

yes, its very accurate and pleasent to shoot, about #5 trigger pull with a short takeup, clean break.
(it is a hidden hammer,single action...no striker)The safety is ambidex on the sides and slighly in front of the trigger and is fast once you learn it....the normal way of keeping the finger straight(and off trigger)till ready places the finger on the safety and its not odd at all after a few times.
Delayed blowback uses a mechanical device to slow the opening of the breach till the pressure drops...Most of the HK longarms operate this way with spring loaded rollers on the side of the bolt carrier(MP5,G3) and belt fed MG42's and the like.    there is a whole lot about this pistol that is really a shrunk down rifle action

Have you meaured the temp cavity?  If the round were to pass close enough to an inelastic organ (liver, bladder, spleen, etc) the damage should be considerable.

Stuh...get the heck out of my thread! We arent talking SS190 here and by reading your posts I see you dont have any practical experiance with gunshot wounds...you need to put down your slide rule and go to work in a emergency room...the folks that get shot havent read theory. This "if it dont hit the heart the attacker will srug it off"...maybee they will maybee they wont ...but there is no way to predict with certainty the reaction of anyone hit by small arms fire(in other words "the ability to shrug it off"). I have been hit by a 55gr .223remington soft point bullet at 67yards from a Mini-14...I was hit as I was turning(they was aiming center mass) so it hit me in the back of the shoulder at a 10 degree angle and blew off a plug of skin about the size of a suzan B. anthony dollar coin from my shoulder blade,exposed the bone and left a few lead fragments that was picked out by the doctor. This round wasnt a "solid hit"  and no vital organ were effected,but it felt like I hat been hit with a baseball bat...and it spun me and set me on my ass and I couldnt lift my arm for 2 weeks. The skin around the wound for about a 3" dia. was bloodshot looking from burst capilaties and bruising. for that matter knifes kill and have no muzzle velocity at all(so if a 6" M7 bayonet is shoved to the hilt,1/2inch from your heart it will have no effect ,and a bandaid is all you need? ROFL) man you havent ever seen the dead and dying I have(over 350).
I quite frankly dont want to hear any more of your threory as you have no real world experiance to back it up and you are just confusing the issue for the heck of it....post elsewhere!

Stuh: You might as well give up now.

People are obviously enamored with the 5.7x28. What RBCD and "Extreme Shock" and others couldn't do, FN's marketing millions have succeeded with.

As usual, the "guys in white lab coats" don't know what they're talking about and have no relevance.

Oh Fellow Texan, he dont have to give up...he just needs to start his own "I hate 5.7" thread and get off my soapbox. I just talk about things I have accually seen, held in my hands and used....otherwise we could talk about the consistancy of monkey feces(which I, and you, have never held in our hands either) I think

A) Look at the above post from mcantu. B) Width: 5.7mm, Height: 5.7mm; Width during tumble: 5.7mm, Height during tumble: 25.4mm. I know these numbers are rough compared to the actual wound. Once again, look at mcantu's post and you will see that the SS-190 was in full "tumble" throughout nearly the entire 13.4" travel.

The projected height during the tumble varies sinusoidally with a maximum of the projectile length and a minimum of the projectile width.  Keep in mind that this increase in apparent width is only one-dimensional.

Indeed, the planned method of incapacitation is by hitting a vital organ.  This is MOSTLY the shooters job, but some bullets make this easier than others.  By displacing more tissue at the proper depths, the chances of disrupting vital organs increases...and hence the round becomes a more reliable incapacitator.  The SS190 has extremely low permanent cavity damage, which means that if the shooter misses the heart by half an inch, too bad it's not going to do anything.  With a fully mushroomed .45 ACP, that might have done the job.  I have previously computed the volume of the permanent cavity for this round but I have lost the results...perhaps I should do another analysis.

Another thing to consider is emotional incapacitation.  Now, I have no data on this...and I haven't been shot...but I have a feeling in the heat of battle, someone could easily shrug off a tiny 5.7mm hole which missed their vital organs and keep on coming full strength.  I think that the larger this hole is, the more damage it does, the faster blood is coming out, the more likely that they will give up.  But like I said I have no data to support this hypothesis.

You say that anything that does not penetrate armor is useless.  That's not true.  They can still go for a head shot.  Considering that the 5.7 is ONLY going to stop a person if it hits a vital organ (so, heart major arterty or spinal cord or brain) and that it probably won't penetrate deep enough to reach the spinal cord anyway, you basically need to aim for the heart.  The heart is a smaller than the brain, and it is also concealed by a persons body...so I think it would probably be an easier shot to hit their brain...so if you're aiming for the brain, you don't need AP technology anyway.

I thought about getting one.....

Yup, let me know if you can find a onlin dealer with adecent price, Im not going to pay $50 a mag when they were almost $20 cheaper a month ago.

R71 congrats on trying out your 57......but alas for debunking the cookie sheet thing, the jello cartel are on the way to simulate a alien abduction at your residence to silence you.... RUN!
At least with your own 57 to test ,you will see some BS for what it is. enjoy it fellow 57 owner :)

My prediction:

6-8" of penetration in ballistic ordance gelatin with radical fragmentation starting at less than 2" of neck.

Here's a gel shot of the SS190 (not the 192)

www.fnmfg.com/lawenf/ss190/ss190.htm

It shows penetration of 13.39" (34cm) at 20m, although this is out of the longer barrel P90.

I highly doubt that DocGKR tried to argue the point that the SS190 was not capable of penetrating a cookie sheet.  DocGKR is very aware of basic physics and bullets, and it doesn't take a genius to figure out that such a small diameter bullet will have no trouble penetrating a thin layer of metal.  I have had many discussions with DocGKR on the SS190, and his opinions are entirely logical.  He never denied it's potential to penetrate hard surfaces, his dislike for the round was due to the fact that it a) has such low mass that it decellerates very quickly in tissue giving it a short penetration depth, b) has such a small diameter that it's permanent cavity is very small and causes much less damage than a 9mm...both of which are very valid concerns.

Quoted: his dislike for the round was due to the fact that it a) has such low mass that it decellerates very quickly in tissue giving it a short penetration depth, b) has such a small diameter that it's permanent cavity is very small and causes much less damage than a 9mm...both of which are very valid concerns.

A) Look at the above post from mcantu.
B) Width: 5.7mm, Height: 5.7mm; Width during tumble: 5.7mm, Height during tumble: 25.4mm. I know these numbers are rough compared to the actual wound. Once again, look at mcantu's post and you will see that the SS-190 was in full "tumble" throughout nearly the entire 13.4" travel.

Also remember that there is more to a weapon than wounding ability; points such as accuracy, high capacity, and low recoil increase hit probability greatly, and a headshot with a 5.7mm is better than a chest-shot with a .45. I would personally rather have 20 rounds of 5.7 than 7 rounds of .45 ACP. (or 50 rounds of 5.7 rather than the 15/30 9mm rounds of the MP5)

I don't think bad wounding ability is even a possibility with the P-90 because it fires at 15 rounds-per-second. The Five-seveN is the one that could logically be argued about.

Anyway, I added a new P-90 pic in my old thread: www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=6&f=2&t=176451&page=4

Check it out--its at the bottom of the page.





EDIT: Two more things to note about the 5.7mm guns:

1. The Army is using FMJ rounds, so the 5.7 makes even more sense.
2. Any non-AP bullet is useless in the Army in circumstances where body armor will be used.

20 rds magazines should be available now for civilians, right?

Hi,

   I fianally got to shoot my Five Seven!   Very Interesting! No recoil! I was able to shoot a few rounds across a chronograph. I placed it about 20 feet or so from the muzzle. I fired 6 rounds, with a High Velocity of 2052FPS & low of 1981FPS. I also fired it at a couple of Water Jugs(Amateur foolishness I Know), set about 18 Yards away. In a three gallon laundry detergent jug the bullet would not exit lentgh wise(14 in) however side to side it would(9 in). The recovered bullets had zero fragmentation and looked just like unfired bullets save for the rifling marks. The impact was more impressive than a ball rnd but less than a .45/.357/.9MM/.40 Hollowpoint impact, I am sure at one time or another you guys have all fired your favorite cartridge at the same type of target, so you know what the impact looks like. I also fired it at an old cookie sheet with Two layers of sheet metal at about 15 yds and about 75yds, it poked both sides and kept going. Someone on another site said it wouldn't punch through a cookie sheet. I dont think its the ultimate anti personnel cartridge(thats the .357SIG), However I would not want one of these tiny bullets to travel through my lungs! Hopefully I will soon be able to procure a IIIA vest panel for testing.

I will say that I would Carry it with my CCW, Its Lite, Accurate and Very easy to hit with. I admit that I do not live in a high threat area and carry mostly out of principle(It's a right you know!) That does not mean I am not able to protect myself either. My other carry guns .45 USP and .357 SIG USP compact will not be forgotten.


I do not have a digital camera otherwise I would have made some attempt at Photos, Sorry.

Quoted: I also fired it at an old cookie sheet with Two layers of sheet metal at about 15 yds and about 75yds, it poked both sides and kept going. Someone on another site said it wouldn't punch through a cookie sheet.

That was Doc Roberts who claimed that, but he said it about a SS-190 fired from the P-90! You are telling us about a SS-192 fired from a pistol penetrating two sheets, while Doc GKR is telling us about a SS-190 fired from an SMG sticking in one sheet.

Strange

some good news..

http://www.firearmstactical.com/tacticalbriefs/volume4/number2/toc.htm

Apparently Vyse gelatin costs 2/3 less than Kind & Knox (about $10/block) and works just as well

Cost is the main factor, Im just a lowly E5 in the military, my pay doesnt allow me to buy ballistic jello like some of the other guys on this site may have access to.  After diapers, bills, and groceries I can barely afford to go shooting anymore.

I would be very interested to see gelatin photos of this round's performance after passing through II or IIIa armor.  I am unaware of any handgun bullets capable of fragmenting without body armor, so if it is capable of fragmenting after body armor that is pretty god damn amazing.  However, gelatin photos would be very necessary to see...because I suspect that its fragmentation does not cause anywhere near as much damage as a M193 due to it having so much lower velocity...so I would like to see what the wound profile does look like.  If you are going to do any tests why don't you just mix up some ordinance gelatin and do a real one?  I think this would be pretty beneficial data considering the high amount of controversy over these FN rounds and the low amount of controlled experimental data.

I've not been able to find sufficient information on this round

is there a cross sectional view showing it's performance in gelatin?  (yes I know gelatin is not flesh but it shows important information)

what is the minimum velocity for the SS192 to reliably fragment?

what is the velocity at 50,100,200 meters?

what is the penetration depth at 100 m?

does it fragment after penetrating level II armor?

can i penetrate IIIa armor?

when it does not fragment, is it still designed to yaw like the SS190?

Let me do my best here to answer some questions, there isnt much on the net about lab test data as far as the SS192 goes.  To do a accurate test on speeds I would need a chronograph, I dont know anybody in Texas who I can borrow one from (Iowa would be a different story.)  The test conducted on the level II vest was done without any flesh-imitating media behind it, only two thick phone books.  Ill be conducting the IIIA test whenever I can find a donor in my unit to let me shoot his IBA on the weekend, Im not shooting mine because I have to take it back to Iraq again next spring/summer.  The SS190 round out of a P90 was designed to penetrate level IIIA armor at 200m, Ive heard it will only do so from a Five seveN at 50m.  I wouldnt bet on the SS192 doing so at that distance, but it could happen around 10m.  When I do my test Im going to use steaks as the media behind the vest panel, the cost of good inch thck slices of beef is another thing holding me back from my test.  As far as the yaw is concerned, any bullet with a greater mass in its rear section will yaw as it begins to slow down, physics dictate that this will happen everytime.  Being that the front of a SS192 bullet would be even lighter than the front of the SS190, I would think it will tumble even quicker than the AP round, I dont know how that would effect its performance.

If .22 call bullets are so bad why hang around .22cal-R-us.com?

um...because a 5.56x45mm fired from an ar15 is a completely different story than a 5.7x28mm fired from a five-seven...because one of them has a LOT more powder with a LOT more room to expand than the other

are you telling me that this 5.7mm bullet fragmented after penetrating body armor?  even from the P90, the 5.7mm bullet does not fragment in gelatin and according to FN, and that has a higher muzzle velocity than the five seven.

stuh505, the tests youve seen and read about are SS190 rounds that have a steel core, not the SS192 HP rounds you see in the pic that shredded themselves after impact.  Nowhere in this thread has a SS190 round been tested.

I know it takes a bit of time and effort to sort through 9 pages on a forum, but go back and check for yourself.  The same panel that was repeatedly penetrated by the 5.7 rounds was shot afterwards by other calibers that it is rated to defeat, and it defeated them with the 5.7 holes already in place.  The quality of this vest panel was supurb, zylon had nothing to do with the rounds performance.  If you look around on the net youll also find SS190 gel tests that show 13 inches of penetration, not just 10 inches on Doc Roberts or Fackler's website.  Nobody is arguing the fact that it isnt limited to a special role in the defense industry, but comparing it to a modern defense round like Federal Hydrashocks or Gold Dots is like comparing a Cocker Spaniel to a pit bull.   The 5.7 round is designed specifically for engagement against armored subjects, more appropriately the "modern" commie ground troops that a downed pilot or dismounted tank crewmember would likely face on the battlefields of central europe.  The 5.7x28mm  round will do everything that geneva legal 9x19mm will not do in that situation, which is why the Army asked for it in the late 80's/early 90's, and that is why the development of the 5.7 weapons system was done by FN at that time.  This thread was written strictly to show a home test of the civi legal ammo on body armor since the question was still there, "will civi ammo penetrate or show piss-poor performance as expected on the body armor?"  Question was answered and pictures were provided as proof.

Quoted: Has anyone mentioned to you guys that the 7.62x25mm as used in the Tokerov pistol will defeat a level IIIa Kevlar vest.   Chuck Karwan in "Combat Handguns" did the test. Regular velocity ammo cut thru a IIIa like it was warm butter. This IS NOT the hotter Czech. loading, it's the standard 86gr/1450fps load for the Tokerov TT-33 pistol.  You can also buy a CZ-52 for about $100 bucks and use the hotter load which will make it even more effective at cutting thru kevlar. I still plan on getting a 5.7x28mm as soon as the AWB sunsets and FN brings out the USG model with 20rnd. mags.  I think every "citizen" should have a "kevlar cutter" just in case the gun grabbers start kickin' doors in.  NO, I'm not  anti-LEO but I am very pro-2nd.Amend.

Your last sentence is what the Second Amendment is all about.  Congrats, you get it and win the prize!

505.....you have just told me you dont wear body armor on a daily basis like I do and have never had a IIIa on your body. Please list the 9mm rounds you speak of that penetrates L2 vests so easily from a pistol. KTW?THV from france?dont remember walmart having those. You also havent fired a 5.7 so you can speak just as athoritatively about the concorde jet. You dont completely read posts either.....I can always tell when the only thing someone knows is what they have read somewhere.  If .22 call bullets are so bad why hang around .22cal-R-us.com? It burns my butt when somebody talks about things they have never held in their hands much less pointed at someone in anger. Keep in mind my arse...go do and see the things I have, then you can preach to me! ROFL.

As you can see without armor, the SS192 has no terminal effect (especially after hitting bones)and these recovered bullets could easily be reloaded and used again blah blah blah fackler blah blah blah must have beat them with a hammer blah blah


 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here is another post of mine that sums up my stance.
First of all , I've been a peace officer for 19 years and started shooting at age 6....had my own .45 combat commander by age 9. I have carried and owned most service pistol calibers, and Im quite real world based in what I've come to expect from a service type handgun having seen about 350 violently deceased persons and still breathing gsw's, and seeing 3 people get hit...and being shot myself(.223Rem feels like a baseball bat swung by a sasquatch lol) every service caliber has worked, and has failed and there isnt a majic caliber/bullet that is 100% and most folks live over being shot with a pistol regardless of caliber. Life isnt a leathal weapon movie and what you can expect from your pistol isnt what you see in a movie either. It comes down to what you have in a gunfight as long as it is a reasonable/commonly accepted gun and cartidge combination of service type....is about 40% of what you need to win the fight. The rest of it is YOU.....shot placement and tactics(which tactics being the most ignored subject of the gunfight dicussion for most folks, and no "I'll just drag them in the house" isnt what im talking about here. Most folks that carry a pistol for self defense hasnt been through MOUT training in the military, police academy,gunsite etc. and hasnt even played paintball before(the only legal way to practice on live people that are trying to shoot you too) the only thing they have is shooting paper targets and forming opionions based on a action movie they saw/gun magazine/peer opinion. "you just have a .41..I HAVE A .42..ergo IM going to win.....If you have a "only the numbers matter" mentality, you are doomed to get really hurt when the BG you have to face hasnt read the same gun mag article proclaiming the ubergun MK5 you are holding is a death ray.
The base line is any of the common service calibers with good ammo and practiced with constantly, and realistically as possible is going to go along way to keeping you alive.
and if you are expecting a fight a rifle, smg, or shotgun is the way to go......not a pistol, no matter what you have. think of it in knife terms......a .380 is a pen knife, a service pistol is a tactical folder, and a assault rifle is a machete........some days only a machete will do but isnt real fun to carry around.......the others are handy, portable and allways with you, but are of limited use when the going gets tough(and the angry mob is after you lol)
the 9mm and .45acp are both like trusted old friends to me and I wouldnt hesitate to use either of them....but by the same token i dont't trust either of them to down a BG in one shot instantly unless I have blown a big chunk off their brain......rapidly keep reappying bullets as needed in any case.
WWJCD! (what would jeff cooper do)

Some of my everyday work pistols

Hirtenberger FL 9mm isnt something I see exept the odd box at a gun show....except for that 3 rds Mike pitched to me for testing...I havent had any in 10years. I use federal hydrashok 124+P+ as a carry load in 9mm

keep in mind that the SS190 only has 10 inches of penetration in optimal conditions.  this means that from certain angles on many people, it will not have enough penetration to reach the depth of the heart.

also keep in mind that this round is going to be doing no more than boring a 5.7mm hole in the subject, with a tiny bit more increased damage in one dimension due to yaw when there is no body armor.  this will cause the subject to lose blood at a much less rapid pace than 9mm or .45 cal, many of which meet the recommended 12 inch minimum penetration depth.

also keep in mind that the penetration test you mentioned were performed on level II body armor which has been proven to deteriorate over time and has been discontiued, and that even at peak performance zylon level II armor was more easily penetrated than kevlar level II armor....

given the wide amount of 9mm ammo that can easily penetrate level II armor, I would assume that if they are going to wear body armor with the intent to protect against handgun rounds that they would choose IIIa anyway.

there's nothing magic about this round at all...it's just an underpowered, tiny little bullet, which penetrated body armor due to having all it's force concentrated onto a smaller cross sectional area.  i can see specific uses for this bullet, but overall I think it's pretty useless, considering that it still can't come close to penetrating level III body armor, and causes less damage than other bullets.

the small size of this bullet and small amount of damage that it does means that if it doesn't hit a vital organ, the subject is just going to shrug it off.

Kinda off topic, but related to the 9mm ammo that you were talking about earleir in the thread.  I founda  9mm I like, the Steyr SPP, which I guess is like a TMP but without a buttstock and foregrip on it.  Youre in DFW right?  And if so, how hard is it to get that ammo for you?

Two questions:

Is the P90 a carbine version for the 5.7???  Any plans by Armalite, Olymic, or Bushmaster to chamber an AR for the 5.7????

Yes, the P90 is FN's "long gun" for the cartridge..they call is a PDW(personal defense weapon) but its basically a 50 shot submachinegun for 5.7     I doubt we will see a AR15 in this caliber as there is no point to it really as the PDW is ment to be a weapon somewhere inbetween the capabilities of a M9 Beretta 9mm and a 5.56 assault rifle ....the first weapon made as a PDW concept (though not called that) was the .30M1 Carbine of WW2, but FN has announced plans to build a civilian 16" barrel semi auto P90. The P90 is currently on two TV shows shown on the sci fi channel....Stargate SG1 and Stargate Atlantis.

Let me add another "word" to this thread.

Glad you liked it Rainbow :)

Word.