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Posted: 1/22/2006 6:10:04 AM EDT
[#1]
You are somewhat limited in 20gauge. #2 & #3 Buck are available in 2 3/4" and 3". I prefer the 3", copper plated ones.
Midway USA or OMC 2guntom  454 Casull + |
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Posted: 1/22/2006 10:30:10 AM EDT
[#2]
ty for the links i should have known to check midway. which birdshot would be best for Home Defense. i was think 3in 6 shot. from the bedroom to the front or back door is 10 feet maybe 15. |
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Posted: 1/22/2006 6:04:12 PM EDT
[#3]
Are you planning to defend your home against a flock of violent crows? If not, stick with buckshot. Birdshot SUCKS for use against people. The pellets simply do not have the mass to penetrate deep enough to inflict a fight stopping wound.
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Posted: 1/22/2006 6:15:34 PM EDT
[#4]
Keep the birdshot for the birds. One of the local cops was shot within 25 feet to the face and neck with one # 6 shot. He dropped but was still able to shoot the perp in the sholder dropping him. He lost a eye and has some permanet nerve damage along with some pellets that couldn't be removed. But he is still going strong and is still with the dept but due to lose of one eye he is not able to patrol so he is a lead detective. True story trust me, the guy that shot him claimed insanity but after being reviewed he stood trial, as for the cop you can not really tell he was shot after all the surgeries other than the false eye. I would not consider protecting my life with a projectile made for a small animal, yes it might work but there are a lot of varibles involved.
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Posted: 1/22/2006 9:34:20 PM EDT
[#5]
ok i will stick with the buckshot like you all are saying to do.
what would be a good recoil pad for the remington 870. |
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Posted: 1/23/2006 8:12:14 AM EDT
[#6]
#8, #7 1/2, and #6 Birdshot work well on squirrel, rabbits, and ferral cats. #4 Birshot works on raccoon, oppossum, and ferral dogs, but for dogs the 3" magnums are recommended. Buckshot also works on dogs, predatory cats, and deer. Black bear and bore use slugs, and slugs also work well for deer. For 2-legged predators, Buckshot or slugs only.
I'm not sure what barrel you have on your 870, and I assume that this is the 20gauge you are asking about, but if you have screw in chokes, consider getting a Modified choke for testing patterns. Even better, get one of the extended clay or steel Modified choke tubes Carlson's. I'm experimenting with Modified choke tubes and I really like what I'm seeing. The patterns are small and dense out to 25 yards. Granted, home defense is farm defense for me so the realm is much larger than just 12 feet from the living room to the front door. For recoil pads, I've heard the Remington R3 pad is great, but I have never tried one. I've got SVL LimbSaver pads on the majority of my shotguns LimbSaver. You may need to call them to make sure their pad will fit your particular gun Contact or check their FAQ FAQ. Most of these can be purchased at Midway or Brownell's. 2guntom 454 Casull + |
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Posted: 1/23/2006 10:01:34 AM EDT
[#7]
2guntom yup it a 20 gauge for the simple fact i had surgery done on this shoulder just a little less than a year ago.so dont want to use a 12 guage just yet.
good info on small game hunting to. i have heard good things about the limbsaver recoil pads. now if im hunting deer should i go with a rifled barrel for slugs or standard barrel. rifle barrel meaning have to get new barrel. will check into the chokes your talking about. im thinking of sending this off to wilson combat to have them put on their ghost sights. |
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Posted: 1/23/2006 11:22:58 AM EDT
[#8]
I just recently bought a 20 G for the home defence. I've read the opinion that buckshot may introduce overpenetration factors into a home shoot out scenario. 0-15 foot distances. That same article said that bird shot would be Ok to use for a strict home defence gun. What's the thoughts on that theory?
R |
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Posted: 1/23/2006 11:35:06 AM EDT
[#9]
See triburst's post above... Are you planning to defend your home against a flock of violent crows? If not, stick with buckshot. Birdshot SUCKS for use against people. The pellets simply do not have the mass to penetrate deep enough to inflict a fight stopping wound. |
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Posted: 1/24/2006 8:09:34 AM EDT
[#10]
My preference for slugs is a rifled barrel, or at least a rifled choke; it tightens up the groups noticably. I rebarrelled my 1100 and 870; the 1100 has a 21" barrel with rifle sights and screw in chokes, and the 870 has a 20" barrel with rifle sights and choke tubes. When shooting regular 1oz slugs (Remington & Winchester) the groups were acceptable with the IC choke, but they tightened up when I switched to the Rifled choke. A few of the slugs were trying to go through the same hole at 25 yards. I already have a dedicated slug gun, a Winchester 1300 Deer with 22" rifled barrel with rifle sights. The IC and Rifled chokes came with the Remington barrels so I tested them just to see. The other factor that is probably contributing to the nice groups is the rifle sights. I know the fully rifled bore in the Winchester is superb from 25 - 100 yards. I have only tested the Remingtons with the IC versus Rifled choke at 25 yards. The real test would be at 100 and 150 yards; that is on my "to do" list.   With all that being said, those guns are all 12gauge. Remington has revamped their website and I'm not finding everything I'm looking for, for the 20gauge 870's. I do see 2 barrels, the 20" rifle bore w/rifle sights (RMB4609), and a 20" fixed IC choke w/rifle sights (RMB4578). It might not hurt to call Remington to see if there are other barrel options. DNR Sports is where I bought my barrels. The service, price, and delivery time was excellent. DNR I'm not sure what barrel you have on your gun right now. I'm typing and thinking out loud because I'm looking to get another 20gauge gun myself. With all the websites I'm looking at trying to find parts versus the Remington factory options, here's the direction I would go: -get an 20gauge 870 w/20" barrrel, fixed IC choke & rifle sights, -possibly with a youth length buttstock (see below), -send the barrel off to be reamed and tapped to accept screw in chokes. This would give me a compact package with all the versatility to hunt and defend the farm. A Full choke tube and #7 1/2 birdshot would work fine for squirrels. An extended clay/steel Modified choke tube would work on rabbits with #6 birdshot, 3" #4 for ferral dogs, and Buckshot for ferral dogs through 2-legged predators. For deer, boar, and bear switch to a Rifled choke tube and slugs. This would cover the spectrum and eliminate the need for 12gauge I built a gun similar to this on a Winchester 20gauge Ranger 120 Youth/Compact platform  That gun lacks rifle sights. I was going to build another on the newer Winchester 1300 Ranger Compact, but it appears they dropped that model for '06, and Winchester is closing their factory in March. So the obvious and logical alternative is a Remington 20gauge 870 or 1100, or possibly even the 11-87. The other concern is I do not see Remington R3 recoil pads for a 20gauge, nor was there a listing for a Limbsaver pad for the 20gauge Remingtons. So the options here are: -send the stock to a 'smith and have the LimbSaver "grind-to-fit" pad professionally installed, -use the LS "slip-on" pad, but this would increase the LOP, -get a youth buttstock and LS "slip-on" pad to keep a normal LOP. I'm glad I found this thread. It made me look at all the available options for something I am considering doing. I hope my out loud thinking and babbling is beneficial to your project. Please keep me posted in what you do to your gun and how it works out. 2guntom 454 Casull + |
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Posted: 1/24/2006 8:24:21 AM EDT
[#11]
Who said buckshot over penetrates? I'm sure they were referring to a 12gauge in 00 or 000 Buck, but I still disagree. Picture this, a 6'4", 300lb hellion, hopped up on meth and booze, crashing through your front door. What do you want to try to stop this murderous neanderthal with? Shells that you use for hunting 1lb squirrels? Shells that you use on 3lb rabbits? Or shells that would drop a leaping mountain lion, a rampaging boar, or a charging grizzly? Birdshot for birds; Buck and slugs for bad guys. The other thing you said is 20gauge. In 20gauge you can get #2 & #3 Buckshot; that is it. It comes in 2 3/4" and 3", lead and copperplated lead. I recommend getting some of each and trying them all at the range to see what patterns best for you in your gun. 2guntom 454 Casull + |
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Posted: 1/24/2006 10:06:00 AM EDT
[#12]
ty for this info i am going to copie all this over to microsoft word so i dont lose the info. thats what i thought the 20 gauge with the right round can do just about anything the 12 gauge can do with less recoil. i know if i ever do grab i 12 gauge shotgun it will have the knoxx compstock the one that looks like a regular shotgun stock not the folding one. |
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Posted: 1/24/2006 10:33:02 PM EDT
[#13]
Oh yes, there's definately nothing wrong with a 20gauge. There are less options than the 12gauge so it forces us to be more creative. Everybody's got a tricked out 12gauge, heck I've got 4; but when you get the perfect 20, you've really got something unique. There's a few other little tricks we can talk about later. I've been "treating" my shotgun bores and the results are pleasant. The patterns are tighter and denser, and they are so much easier to clean after shooting. I had a 12gauge that was shooting at least 8" to the right, and it really got the treatment; it is now back on target and the patterns tightened up. From what I've seen of Remington barrels recently, they're putting out a high quality product. Just a little spit and polish bring them to perfection. Shooting position is another topic to discuss. I've got a storm rolling in so I need to get offline. I don't like replacing motherboards and modems; it cuts into my gun money! We'll pick this up after the storm blows over. 2guntom 454 Casull + |
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Posted: 1/24/2006 10:52:49 PM EDT
[#14]
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Posted: 1/25/2006 7:42:23 AM EDT
[#15]
i plan on hunting this year so this is all very good info wasnt able to last year with the surgery on my shoulder.
but we have all kinds of wild game down here.go to the mountains we have black bear.where im at we have deer,turkey,hogs-boar,all kinds of game birds.squirrel,rabbits,fox,coon,possum, you name we more than likley have some form of it. 
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Posted: 1/25/2006 11:07:04 AM EDT
[#16]
Yep, we're in similar country. I'm over here in NE Tennessee.
I hope your shoulder heals so you are back to 100%. I'll shoot you an email. 2guntom 454 Casull + |
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Posted: 1/25/2006 11:09:06 AM EDT
[#17]
it is healed but you know how doctors our they want me to be careful for awhile. i will look for you email . |
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Posted: 1/25/2006 11:18:48 AM EDT
[#18]
Sorry for my late reply I had to figure out where I saw it originally.
"The Tactical Shotgun" G Suarez Pages 13-15 I'd have to type out the whole chapter to accurately give you the gist of it. Here's some excerpts "Birdshot for example would be a foolish choice for anything but a strict home defense application, where engagement will be remarkably close. This is the only place where tactical use of birdshot is worthwhile. Buckshot will easily penetrate walls......" "Within room combat distances, #71/2 and #8 birdshot will strike an adversary as a single mass and generally will not over penetrate." It doesn't specifically say but I would assume those statements are in regard to 12 gauge not 20. Just something I read in that book. I guess the only way to actually know would be to fire some 20 G Buck into a wall and see what happens? 
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Posted: 1/25/2006 11:19:59 AM EDT
[#19]
Crows AND pigeons are known to orchestrate Home INVASIONS!! 
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Posted: 1/26/2006 7:14:01 AM EDT
[#20]
If it's not going to penetrate drywall, something that some bb guns and a human fist can do, then ho w do you expect it to penetrate deeply enough into a person to stop them? And I'm one of those that doesn't believe in the deeper is better, or 14 inch minimum in gellatin is needed. Hell, birdshot might not even penetrate some heavy leather jackets. Pellet size, NOT guage determine how deeply, or what the shot, whether bird or buck, will penetrate. #3 birdshot will penetrate the same from either, as will #3 Buck. There is just usually more with the 12 guage than the 20. |
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Posted: 1/26/2006 11:18:24 AM EDT
[#21]
Ah, okay. Now you've given me something to go on here. I am sorry to put you through that, but I'll explain this the best I can by the principles I adhere to and excercise. Keep in mind I live on a 230+ acre farm so my concept of home defense is farm defense. I could be up against a 300lb redneck hopped up on meth at 20yards or a coyote at 50yards. I believe my principles also apply to intruders 12feet away, ie., from the living room to the front door. I have used 7 1/2 birdshot in a 20gauge successfully on cats at 25yards. I don't plan on needing to defend my home against such creatures unless I meet this guy  I also used 7 1/2 birdshot in a Full choked 12gauge on a dog at 20 yards. The dog yelped and charged me. I had to hold the muzzle against his head to keep him from eating me alive! When he quit pushing forward, I was able to chamber another round. This was fired point blank and left a gaping smoking hole in his head. That experience has effected every aspect of my shotgun experimentation, trying to come to a better outcome next time. Keep in mind, that was point blank, a dog, not a human, and a head shot. A torso shot at 20yards did nothing but drive him to attack. After the first shot failed to neutralize him, I hesitated/froze. I take the worst possible scenario and use that as the basis for how my shotgun is set up and loaded. I am also shooting and experimenting trying to see what brand, shotsize, shot style, and choke deliver the best results for that scenario. Buckshot will penetrate walls; this is true. My advice, don't shoot the walls! Shoot the badguy! If you concentrate your fire, squeeeeeeze the trigger not pull it, and practice, practice, practice, you should be just fine. Close distance and point blank are two entirely different things. Point blank, yes, the shot will be one mass and deliver a hole around 3/4 to 1" in diameter. Close distance, let's say 12 feet, that birdshot will spread out and not be a single mass. #7 1/2 birdshot is very tiny, sheds velocity fast, and does not penetrate very deep at all, particularly after it passes through clothing. The shot that hits the target will tear up Bubba's coat or shirt and inflict surface trauma only. Now Bubba's pissed, and you are hesitating because he wasn't launched into the air. Buckshot. Point blank, one mass, same hole. 12 feet, it spreads about 3". A 3" spread or group should be very easily directed in the torso or head of a target. At 12 yards, the pattern is 6" - 8" which should still be easy to keep all in the torso of the target. At 25 yards it spreads to 8" - 19". These are results from 2 of my shotguns, at measured distances. 19" may seem scary, but do you have any 75 foot long rooms in your house? I have engaged ferral dogs running at 3 times that distance so my experimentation got more intense. First step, what condition is the barrel in? Is the bore shiny? How long is the forcing cone? The forcing cone should be 1 1/2" long and polished. If it isn't polished, the forcing cone length doesn't do its job properly. Next the bore needs to be polished to a mirror shine. Most importantly, after every shooting session, the gun needs to be cleaned. If left dirty, the bore can be etched. The etching turns into rust, and that rust will leave buldges and protrusions. When you try to clean it now, the removal of the rust will leave divets and craters. In an untreated barrel, say a barrel with a 1/4" forcing cone, the shot on the outside of the group is scraped by the steep ledge or bump in the forcing cone. They are scratched and even flatsided. This is the shot that will stray wildly from the rest. These are your flyers. When the forcing cone is long and polished smooth, the shot in the wad just slides through without damage or marring. The exact same goes for the bore. Any divet, bump, rough spot or pitting is going to scar or flatside the shot and produce flyers. Another way to prevent and reduce flatsided shot pellets is to use copperplated shot. Combine the copperplated shot with a properly treated forcing cone and bore and you really have something! The end result of all of this is tighter patterns. In the patterns the shot is more evenly distributed so there are no gaps between pellet holes. You will also experience higher muzzle velocities. An added bonus is that the barrel is much easier to clean. Another thing to consider is choke. I have just very recently started playing with different chokes. I noticed some of my fixed Modified choke guns had tighter (smaller) patterns than the IC choked guns. The guns that have screw-in chokes, I compared the IC to the Modified and was pleased. The Mod choke keeps the patterns small, tight, and dense to 25 yards. Then I started looking at the "extended" steel and sporting clay chokes. These come in Modified, but they have a longer parallel section for the restriction, so the end result is supposed to be more uniform, tight patterns. Just this weekend we (my brother and I) tried his Moss 835 with and Extended Modified choke tube. I had given his barrel the treatment, but there were still a few questionable spots in the bore because the previous owner had failed to clean it. The barrel will be fixed later, but in it's present condition, 6 out of 9 00Buck pellets hit a 2-liter bottle at 20 yards. Think about the size of the 2-liter, and the distance of 20 yards. I was extremely impressed. The weather was lousy, so we didn't get to do any paper targets to measure the entire pattern. I have Modified choke tubes installed in my guns. I haven't tried the extended version yet, but I will be testing them soon. The shot size matters. Birdshot is small; it is not heavy. 00Buck is king. It is large and heavy, but there are only a few pellets in each shell. Some people, including me, like #4Buck. The pellets are smaller than 00, so you get 4 times as much in each shell. Since they are smaller, they don't penetrate as deep. The question still stands- is #4Buck heavy enough to penetrate adequately? The happy medium is #1Buck. It has been proven by guides that have used it to put down wounded cats, and I'm not talking about house or barn cats either. All that is 12gauge information. Moving to the 20, we have #2 and #3 Buckshot. Why? I don't know. That's all I can find. What I do know is this is smack dab in the middle of #1 and #4. The pellet count is good, and the pellets have some weight to penetrate. Penetration. Unless you are a butcher and have access to a meat locker with sides of beef, you need to find a test medium. Drywall is not good because the objective is to hit badguys, not the walls in your home. Water is an acceptable test medium. Water is not as dense as human tissue with bone, fat, and muscle, but it will at least give you a real time exhibit to examine. 2-liter bottles or gallon jugs filled with water will work. Punch a few with birdshot. I don't feel that point blank is worth trying, unless you have your application in to be a mafia hitman. If it is extremely hot out outside, go ahead; you'll get soaked and cooled off (yes, I have done it before). A more realistic distance is 12 feet. You will notice that the bottles you shoot with birdshot will have several hundred pellets in the bottom. Why? The pellets penetrated the plastic, went no more than an inch into the water, stopped, and fell to the bottom. So if that were a bad guy who is made of bone, muscle, fat, and probably some grissle, how far would those little pellets penetrate? Remember, we need to penetrate lungs and heart. On a side note, after the heart and lungs have shut down, a fully oxygenated brain will live on for as much as 17 minutes. That is 17 minutes more raping, pillaging, hurting or even killing you. Try the Buckshot. How far did it penetrate? Clean through? Remember, this is water, not flesh. Stack several jugs back to back and see what you get. Since this is water, the pellets are running deeper than they would in living tissue. Shoot at paper too, and lots of it. Every shotgun is different. You could have two exact same make and model guns and each of them will pattern differently. Shells are different too. Some guns do better with a particular brand and shot. The only way to know is to go shooting, try several differenttypes and brands of shells, and compare results. My hd gun is a Remington 870. It has a 20" barrel with rifle sights and a Modified choke tube. The first shell is 3" copperplated #4birdshot (turkey load), the next shell is a 3" copperplated #4Buckshot, and the next 5 are 3" copperplated #1Buckshot. On the stock is an additional 5 rounds of the latter. The reason for this is because I have a much greater chance of shooting a coyote, ferral dog, 'coon, or 'possum. If I do encounter a bad guy, I have the option of clearing the turkey round and using the buck, or just start shooting and keep shooting till he's neutralized. I have got 3 20gauge guns, and a total of 5 that I shoot 20gauge shells in. I have not completed my tests yet on all of those. I have regular game loads, copperplated 3" turkey loads, 2 3/4" lead Buckshot, and 3" copperplated Buckshot. All of the barrels have been given the treatment, and I have a regular Modified and an extended Modified choke tubes for the gun that takes screw in chokes. I have read books, play in forums, and talked to a lot of people. I also took a course. About half of what I've read and been told is utter BS! What I have experienced through shooting and experimentation contradicts a lot of it, and has caused me to draw other conclusions from continued experimentation. I am certainly not the final authority on all this, which leads me to the point- you are the final authority. You will know what works for you by shooting your gun, utilizing different types of ammo, and comparing the results. Through this you will gain experience and confidence in your abilities, and the ammo and gun's abilities. I hope that my chronicling of my experiences give you something to go on. I certainly don't know everything, I just know what works for me. There is a really cool website where a fella' did all kinds of cool tests. You might look it over to give you some ideas of tests you can perform. www.theboxotruth.com/ In particular, these are interesting to see www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot14.htm www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot20.htm Skim through his other articles. There is a lot of good stuff there. 2guntom 454 Casull + |
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Posted: 2/15/2006 4:07:54 PM EDT
[#22]
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Posted: 2/15/2006 4:37:10 PM EDT
[#23]
Fair Enough I'll use the BShot for home defense
Thanks for the 411 R |
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Posted: 2/15/2006 10:27:01 PM EDT
[#24]
You bet. One of the key components in all of this is to go out and shoot to test your gun and your ammo for patterns.
I was out today trying a barrel to get a "before" picture. I haven't done anything to the barrel yet. I was flabbergasted by the patterns, to say the least, but the results still hold true to what I say and believe. It was an 18" fixed I.C. choke 870 barrel. Regular old lead 00Buck delivered a 12yard pattern that was 9" tall and about 4" wide. The pellets were bunched and not evenly distributed. Switching to a different brand, the shot was #1Buck and it was buffered. This patterned 10 1/2" tall and the same distance wide. The shot was evenly distributed through this. That ain't bad, but I want better. This barrel will get a forcing cone job, and a thorough honing and polishing from chamber to muzzle. After that, more testing. It may get reamed and tapped for screw-in chokes, or I may get it sleaved; I'm not sure which and it's too early in the game to tell. Shoot, experiment, and keep a record of your results. That is the only way to know if what you have works, or if it needs tuning. |
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Posted: 2/17/2006 8:36:34 AM EDT
[#25]
Further proof that birdshot is not too good against people. A 78 year old man was shot in the face and chest, and is doing ok now. And yes, I mean VP Cheney's accident. It it doesn't put down even a spry 78 year old, what do you think it's going to do to some tweaker? Unless you are talking contact distance of course, and even then a bayonet mught be just as good.
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Posted: 2/17/2006 7:20:37 PM EDT
[#26]
Point well taken. for a few months now I have had my Saiga-20 with 3 loaded magazines of 20 gauge 00 Buckshot for those SHTF moments. |
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Posted: 2/18/2006 4:52:30 AM EDT
[#27]
Yes the VP's shoot was very informative. But the whole story is that it was a 28 gauge, same velocity as any other gauge. 3/4 oz of shot, smaller payload than a 12 gauge or 20 gauge and very small size shot, #7 1/2. The last variable that we don't know is what choke he was using but since he was quail hunting I would guess IC or more open. Not that I am advocating bird shot for self defense but there would have been a much different outcome if it was a load of #4's or larger from a 12 gauge with a tighter choke. Turkey hunters with their X-full chokes and large shot manage to kill several people each year in hunting "accidents". MIKE. |
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Posted: 2/24/2006 10:49:55 PM EDT
[#28]
You got to remember he shot a lawyer,ask Aimless or Eric ,takes more than one shot to kill a lawyer!!
Bob 
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Posted: 3/12/2006 1:21:49 PM EDT
[#29]
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Posted: 3/29/2006 7:22:35 AM EDT
[#30]
btt
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Posted: 3/29/2006 9:28:34 PM EDT
[#31]
Who was the original idiot gun writer who started this notion that #4shot is a ideal def. load?
Did the ^ guy ever go deer hunting? - Go shoot a whitetail at 15 yds with #4 and watch the same thing happen as if you poured hot water on him. He runs, not slow, not about to die, just pissed off. WTF was this idiot thinking? Over penetaration? -For the love of god its hard enough to take a god darn duck with #4 let alone a MAN! 00 or 000 stop thinking about any other Shotgun load for Def. - please. |
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Posted: 3/30/2006 10:02:59 AM EDT
[#32]
Did you miss this thread? ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=6&f=1&t=195451&page=1 Every few weeks a topic comes up about using birdshot for defense. Both sides come in with their arguments. I'm not a doctor, not a mortician, and I don't work in a forensics lab at Quantico. I have never had to use a shotgun to defend myself from a human agressor, and I hope I never do. I have killed a lot of critters in my time though. For critters up to 15lbs, birdshot is fine. Around 15lbs, heavier, larger birdshot works better. When it comes to larger critters, particularly the kind with teeth, I prefer buckshot. #4birdshot will work, but I'd rather use the buck. That dog that nearly ate me alive always comes to mind when people say birdshot is okay for whatever reason for defense. Point blank, and I mean the muzzle pressed tightly against his head, birdshot killed him. I would really hate to be that close to a perp to put the muzzle firmly against his head. If I wanted to be that close, I wouldn't need a gun; I could use a long knife or spear! |
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Posted: 6/6/2006 5:48:23 PM EDT
[#33]
btt
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Posted: 6/7/2006 11:38:51 PM EDT
[#34]
at close range..#4 shot or larger is wicked..10-15 ft..from a full choke. i have seen alot working at trauma centers. and trust me when i tell you that #5 lead, #4 and #3 steel shot will kill a deer. DEAD..once again tight chokes.. ...they'll go about 5 feet if shot right. most of that footage is thrashing. the only problem is keeping the retriever still,then they look at you like " you gonna want me to bring that in boss"...and its best to let your hunting buddies realize that certain things might happen on a hunting trip and to try and stay calm.
you know..could start a conversation..that goes something like this.. "hey john..dont sit right there..your blocking me view of that rub line.., you dont want to get in the way of that muzzleflash, it'll singe ya.." if he's smart..he'll take a hint. we worked on a .410 to the boiler room from 10 feet that was freakin toast...the guy grunted ( i dont think he was thinking to himself, thats buff out)....he fell against a car and slide down and pretty much died right there..they brought him in anyway and the residents did "their thing". now..is that gonna happen all the time..NNeeeeeewwwwwwwww you'd be foolish to think that. but..i would think that taking a load of birdshort to the melon or chest would make me wonder why i was in a place like that to begin with. #4 buck would be wicked...inside a house. what 27 pellets..damn thats a party from across the room. |
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Posted: 7/31/2006 4:22:00 PM EDT
[#35]
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Posted: 8/7/2006 4:55:53 AM EDT
[#36]
Here we go again with the birdshot bullshit.
#1. The Cheney incident: his hunting partner was 100 feet (about 35 yds away) and was hit with indiviual, well spread out #8 pellets whose velocity had fallen to about 650-700 fps at that distance. At contact to ten feet (bedroom hallway self defense) the 12 ga shotshell with birdshot will give 500 grains of lead clustered in a an inch and half wide pattern at 1,200 fps. I don't think anyone wants to stand in front of 500 grains of lead at "150 caliber" going 1,200 fps???? At ten feet - bird shot will saw a human in half In my state of CT, we had a turkey hunter killed instantly with 12 ga birdshot who was in the bushes and shot by another hunter who stalking a bird at a range of about 12 yards (36 feet and with a full choked 12 ga) The serial killers in Arizona who were just arrested last week killed six people with a freaking .410! Wake up and get real |
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Posted: 8/7/2006 7:57:39 AM EDT
[#37]
Relax! This is an old thread. |
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Posted: 8/7/2006 4:03:19 PM EDT
[#38]
i only bumped it back up so maybe some people would get some good info. heys what up 2gun have not seen you in a while |
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Posted: 8/8/2006 4:16:21 PM EDT
[#39]
steveinct;
I have tremendous respect for your shotgun skills and knowledge, of which you have a great deal, but I respectfully submit that you are dead wrong on your preference for birdshot for HD use. I also gotta say that at 10 feet, birdshot will most certainly NOT "saw a human in half"! (not even close) Unless you plan to use a LOT of shots! I have seen many, many shallow, nasty wounds on humans from birdshot over the years...probably not as many as muddydog, but a bunch of them (30+ I reckon)...and i can say that not one...not a single one that I, personally, have seen...was a fatal wound. Ugly? Yes. Fatal? No. (BTW this includes a couple of head shots at very close ranges...drunk rednecks do some stupid stuff!) I know that every year, turkey hunters are killed with heavy turkey shot, and I have seen a deer that was killed by a contact head shot with #8 low brass by a quail hunter, but in general, birdshot does NOT work well except in very limited circumstances in defensive situations against humans. I once arrived at a scene just in time to watch a guy shoot himself in the chest with 12ga. #8 shot from a Remington 1100...contact wound very near the heart. I watched his skin puff out, watched his face as he felt the hit, and placed him in the ambulance a few minutes later. He survived. This type of thing is all too common with anything less than #00 or 000 Buck...and yes, that includes #4 or #1 buck...simply not enough penetration, IMO. Because of these experiences and some others, I will never recommend birdshot of any size for defensive use against human predators. For a 20ga. I would pick #2 Buck, with #3 Buck a distant second, but I would not really feel comfortable with anything less than #00 in my own 12ga. (and I use #000 only) You are, of course, free to choose whatever you have faith in...I only hope your faith is not misplaced. |
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Posted: 8/8/2006 7:08:31 PM EDT
[#40]
People have survived shots to the chest with .44 Magnum, and .308 Win. too and those have plenty of penetration in humans.
On the cases you describe having seen; where for example, did the attempted suicide victim have the shot placed on his chest? He may have missed anything vital. I can tell you about some cases here in CT where heads were blown apart by birdshot at contact distance. A well thrusted kitchen knife has plenty of penetration too. Ever try stabbing a 3-4" thick phone book with a butcher knife? See how far you can drive it in with one thrust? Can you make it through an inch and a half of paper or two, with a good try? A 12 ga load of birdshot, especially heavier loadings will blow a FIST SIZE channel completely through the book that you can stuff a baseball into from the back. I've seen asphalt on trap fields blasted at point blank range with # 8 shot, one ounce in ADs from people using release triggers where the hole blown into the asphalt was about as deep as a .45 ACP hardball would make and twice as wide about the same as if you were to press your thumb really hard into a warm, soft bar of soap and gouge in a bout 2" or so deep Two whack-os in Phoenix AZ were arrested this week for serial killings. Random drive ups. Weapon used? .......... a .410 shotgun. Six people are not around to tell us about it. One 18 yr old who survived a shotshell wound to the abdomen was knocked to the ground and really thought he was going to die. He told reporters "the bleeding wouldn't stop". That 18 yr old victim told reporters he wants to "strangle" his attackers. This was reported on CNN. And that's with a half ounce of shot ; not an ounce and a half at 1,200 fps or so. If shotshells didn't work; Mossberg wouldn't have successfully marketed a .410 "home defense" shotgun over the last 15 years intended for females and other shooters who are intimidated by a larger gun Shotguns work as well or better than the largest caliber handguns that are practical for self defense |
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Posted: 8/8/2006 8:17:08 PM EDT
[#41]
Ah, I've been around; lurking mostly. The gun mag writers and the wannabe's ain't been around much, so I think it's safe for me to come back out 
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Posted: 8/8/2006 8:35:15 PM EDT
[#42]
Yup! Yet another reason I don't drink Seriously? You don't care for #4 or #1 Buck? Coming from you I just about want to load my own 20's with 00Buck. I've been playing with other solutions some. Of course, a 12ga has more options, and I've been playing with different handloads. The 1oz slugs I cast have always intrigued me. I ran out of wads before I got done working up to max powder charges. The initial testing was through a rifled bore, but I'm going to start testing them through an 18" smooth bore. I believe that is about the only way to deliver apple size areas missing tissue. When I get re-supplied I'm going to load up a bunch and head to the range for accuracy tests. From there I'll do penetration tests if I can keep from turning my test medium inside out with those. |
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Posted: 8/9/2006 4:31:12 AM EDT
[#43]
And ikor, even the guy you saw shoot himself with #8 shot in the chest and live - fell to the ground - right?
If he was an attacker - he would have still been incapacitated. muddydog's story about the guy shot near the heart "slid down and pretty much died right there" (shot with a .410 with birdshot); so I don't get why I am in your opinon "dead wrong" about birdshot at close range? I am not talking about using birdshot at 50 yards here I was an EMT in the greater New Haven, CT area during the early 1990s when New Haven had 35 murders per year and dozens more non fatal shootings. Guess what? there were plenty of people shot in the chest, face and head with .38 SPL, 9mm, .40 cal and even one with .223 that lived to tell about it. Does that mean those rounds are totally ineffective, too and cause only ugly but non fatal wounds?? Attend any hunter safety course and you learn about all the ADs that occur mostly with shotguns at close range using birdshot where many, many errant hunters were tragically and instantly killed over the years. Birdshot may not be as IDEAL as 00-buck for self defense under a wide range of tactical LEO situations, but I'm not debating that. I am talking about drawing down from the side of your bed when an intruder is across the other side of the bed in the doorway. I think it's "Dead Wrong" and worse, irresponsible to dismiss birdshot as having nothing but "superficially wounding" capability. It perpetuates myths and lack of respect for firearms and poor firearms handling which I observe every weekend on trap and skeet fields where people treat the shotguns as "golf clubs" and don't think they need to observe safe practices because somehow their guns and ammo are "less than" real. That is dead wrong |
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Posted: 8/9/2006 5:03:13 PM EDT
[#44]
steveinct;
I do not think I have ever said or even strongly indicated that birdshot would only produce "superficial wounds" at any distance. If you can find where I have, I would appreciate you pointing it out to me. I will also say that shot does some strange things. In the infamous Norco, CA bank robbery, a single pellet of #4 Buckshot...which will rarely completely penetrate a heavy leather jacket past 25yd....went something like 50 yards, through a rear window of the robbers' van and killed the driver. I would never bet money that a single pellet of something like #6 or larger shot could not kill a human being, much less my personal safety (or that of others either). Let us clarify that what I mean when I say "birdshot" for this post is #6 or smaller shot. Still, I have seen more than enough to convince me to never recommend birdshot (heavy turkey shot like #2, or maybe BBs, etc. or #4 Buck in some specific situations may be a different matter) for HD under the vast majority of circumstances. The single biggest problem with Buckshot that actually impacts the target in the field is a LACK of penetration. There is simply no way to compare the mindset of a determined rapist or murderer, probably high on dope...certainly on adrenlin...with that of a hunter or skeet shooter, etc. The old NYPD SOU (Stake Out Unit) back in the days when Jimmy Cirillo and the other old timers were active, discovered that they "lost" (usually they turned up dead later, but not always, and they were capable of fight or flight when they left those crime scenes) so many guys who had been shot with #00 Buck...many at point-blank ranges...that they went to slug loads only for their shotguns...and they had several run away from scenes after being shot with multiple, 1oz. slugs as well! All that is well documented in the files of NYPD. An intruder who will knowingly enter an occupied dwelling is a VERY dangerous person, and will almost always be armed and determined not to be captured. He just may take a lot more "stopping" than, say, a purse snatcher or car thief. He may be dead, but he may need some more convincing of that fact before his heart stops, which can easily be 15-30 seconds. Do YOU want to face someone over a gun for 15 seconds? Now, I know this "can" happen with anything, but I believe it is much more likely to happed with birdshot, .22lr or other less than optimal rounds. I once worked a shooting where one thug's father was (justifiably, I might add) shot with #00 Buck by another dirt bag who lived next door...this was NOT a nice neighborhood!...and killed. Whereupon thug #1's son grabbed his dad's 12ga. Browning and pumped something like 5 rounds of #6 birdshot into the shooter at across the yard distance...maybe 10-12 (at the outside) or so yards. The shooter walked into his house and called the SO while reloading his single shot 12ga. in case the son decided to make a frontal assault. He walked into the ambulance and the docs later spent God knows how long pulling pellets out of his hide, but at NO time was he incapable of killing someone else. I have distances that far inside my own, 2000sq, ft suburban home, and much greater...of course...at my farm. The guy I watched shoot himself staggered around a few seconds, than sat down and started to yell a lot about how much it hurt. (I don't think he appreciated me asking him if he really thought it was going to feel GOOD!) He, too, walked into the ambulance with some support, but he was playing for the crowd, and actually could have walked by himself. Lost a lot of blood, but was never in any real serious danger according to the ER doc. "Incapacitated" is different from one person to the next and often depends upon psychological issues. Sometimes people just fall down because they think they are supposed to...sometimes they have to be taken completely off of their feet, etc. Drugs, alcohol and adrenlin...not to mention all 3 at the same time...are some powerful stimulants as I am sure you know. Birdshot may enter as a "semi-solid" mass at close ranges, but it quickly spreads out in flesh, and the individual pellets lack the weight to penetrate very far once that mass is disrupted. Yes, 9mm, .38, .223, .40...and even .45, which I have seen fail three times (twice with ball and once with HydraShok, although it worked well for me...can all fail and all succeed, but none start out as minimal, and birdshot does IMO. So, once again I will say, that while birdshot may, indeed, work on some bad guys, some of the time...and that is a fact, I will agree, the odds are not good that YOUR birdshot will do the job at much past contact distance, and there is simply no way to guarantee what the situation will be in YOUR incident. You may be speaking about across the bed distance, but that may not be how it happens at all. If things change rapidly, which they tend to do in deadly force encounters, I do not intend to be stuck with a gun full of shot capable of killing little more than a dove or quail and not much else, thank you. And to indicate that I, as an NRA, FBI and FDLE certified LE earms Instructor for over three decades (I am also certified to teach Hunter Safety Courses) and thousands of citizens, judges, justices. soldiers, Marines and LEOs trained directly by me, have, or do in any way, encourage irresponsible behavior with ANY firearm(s) comes VERY close to a personal insult as far as I am concerned, and I do NOT appreciate it! I once kicked a combat decorated Green Beret off my range for irresponsible behavior with a loaded weapon...that is pretty serious shit, partner. I respect your experience, but I will not be insulted by anyone...tread lightly. I realize you are very passionate about your belief that birdshot is a decent HD load. I am also very serious in MY belief that it is not. I can pretty much guarantee we will never agree, but when it all shakes out, I still believe you are wrong. |
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Posted: 8/9/2006 9:30:29 PM EDT
[#45]
I believe a fully oxygenated brain can continue to function normally for a full 17 minutes under optimum conditions after the heart and lungs have ceased their functions. That is why I hate torso shots and prefer head shots. That sweet spot below the eyebrows and above the gumline is prime. No matter what the heart, lungs and brain are doing, when the brain is cut off from the rest of the body, that body wilts to the ground without so much as a muscle twitch. ikor, you've got to tell me more about that last part- mutiple slug impacts and the purps ran?! 1oz 12gauge slugs? |
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Posted: 8/10/2006 2:41:54 PM EDT
[#46]
So now ikor is trying to bait me into a personal insult war?
WTF dude? People I've seen at many shotgun ranges read threads here and elsewhere and believe that birdshot really won't hurt someone to the point where they ignore gun handling rules. I know it. I've seen it. I am a range officer at one of my clubs and I've thrown people off the field for it. They read crap on the internet about how birdshot does nothing but cause skin wounds and the next thing you know they're sweeping the trap squad and spectators with a loaded shotgun when they change stations or have to stop because the machine ran out of birds. Then when you correct them they look at you like you have three freaking heads and I've actually heard lame ass excuses like: "it's only loaded with birdshot it's not like it's going to hurt anyone if it does go off" And yes it's because they read shit like that here and on other sites all over the internet and if that isn't irresponsible, I don't know what is. That crap didn't happen 15 years ago when the internet wasn't around. Like your thirty years of shooting experience has its merit, I am not too far behind with twenty five. I've been a club officer, a state champion shooter, an association delegate and served many other roles, too including instructor and coach for CT State Legislators who were on the fence about the gun issue and now vote in favor of pro gun issues. And for you as a moderator to go ahead and flat out accuse me of starting a personal insult war is pretty freaking piss poor in my opinion. You got a beef with something at home? don't take it out on me. Nowhere in my comments or opinions did I ever attack you with comments personally. Have a great day. |
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Posted: 8/10/2006 3:25:15 PM EDT
[#47]
Lets try this again, steve...
I have never...not ever...not once...said that birdshot was "not dangerous" and if you are saying I did, you should provide proof...which you cannot. I know full well that there are idiots out there who own and use firearms...don't accuse me of feeding them misinformation because I don't. If they are stupid enough to reach totally wrong conclusions when opinions are posted here...or anywhere else...it is not my fault. If you insinuate that I have ever encouraged anyone to be disrespectful of the potential death dealing capabilities of any firearm with any loading, then yes, I take that as a pewrsonal insult, If that is not your intent then you need to say so. If it IS your intent...with absolutely zero proof...then you may need to lay off the caffine or maybe tighten your tinfoil hat, sport. Your 25 years of experience is fine and dandy, but I fail to see how much of it relateds to any real world use of shotguns for defense use. You can have 25 years of experience, or you can have one year of experience 25 times. Which is it? You never saw me or mike103 or anyone else on this forum that I ever recall advocate anybody doing stupid crap like sweeping anyone with a loaded firearm, and to indicate that I have been a party to such, is...once again...an insult to me. Your work in a blue state like Connecticut is good to hear...we need all the help we can get. What I said...maybe you should read it again...is that your words came very CLOSE to a personal insult. But then I have not seen you deny any such thing since you wrote those words, have I? I got no beef with anyone, anywhere, but you, my friend, sound like you have some serious issues with anyone who disagrees with your opinions. I don't need to ban you...you have let it hang out for all here to see Maybe you should try anger managemant classes. |
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Posted: 8/10/2006 3:31:05 PM EDT
[#48]
Maybe you should take up golf.
Don't try baiting me into a flame war with crap like :"25 yrs or is it 1 yr 25 times" I never said YOU swept anyone on a shotgun range; I said: people believe the shit they read on the internet and allow themselves to become lax WTF are you seeking to accomplish with a snide remark like "is it 25 yrs of experience I have or one year 25 times?" , ...... Mr. "Moderator??" other than starting a personal insult and flame war yourself??? And you're a moderator????? Jeeezziss H Kee rist, the sky really is falling after all. You Better get another roll of Reynolds wrap, for your tin foil hat, and double the layers huh? |
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Posted: 8/10/2006 3:45:59 PM EDT
[#49]
I detest golf.
No flame war...I would just like some clarification on exactly what you think I...or even this forum...has done that CAUSED these idiots to sweep people on a range somewhere. Do you REALLY believe that because some disagree with your opinion that birdshot is a good HD load that WE are the cause of this stupid behavior? Or, maybe, what we say here that is so abhorrent to you and why you feel that your experience is better enough than that of others that you feel good calling any recommendation against birdshot for HD "Bullshit", which it is not...again IMO and lots of others. Again, I do not intend to ban you...I will let your comments speak for themselves...and, once again in my opinion, they speak pretty lamely. Others here can make up their own minds. |
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Posted: 8/10/2006 8:53:22 PM EDT
[#50]
Um, well, alrighty then. Back on track... ikor, can you give me more details on the badguys shot with slugs that ran away? Where were they shot (head or torso)? Or is there a site that I can go to in order to read more? I'm not pickin' a fight: I really do want to read more. |
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