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Posted: 3/14/2014 7:43:16 PM EDT
[#1]
I don't think I've ever put my ak on paper. Good enough to hit a coke can every time at 50 yards and 3 out of 5 at 100. That's pretty much all I've used it for. If I need better than that I normally go with a different weapon.
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Posted: 3/14/2014 8:02:33 PM EDT
[#2]
You have take a lot of accuracy claims with a huge grain of salt, and that goes for ANY weapon. In my experience most gun owners shoot just to shoot and many don't know anything about accuracy shooting. Having said that, I participated in the 1 MOA challenge that was done on this forum last year and I used my home built Bulgarian AK-74 using Bulgarian 7n6. There were set rules for the challenge and a lot of people making sub-MOA claims refused to participate under those rules, so that should tell you something. Here's my results:
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Posted: 3/14/2014 8:09:20 PM EDT
[#3]
I found the results of that challenge and I got first place in the non-magnified optic category even though I was using iron sights
 :
1. AEnemaBay: Bulgarian AK-74 (home built), stock iron sights, 1989 Bulgarian 7n6 surplus: 0.786" / 0.786" / 0.786" / 1.098" / 1.161" = Average 0.923" @ 50 yards = 1.762 MOA 2. nickforney: Stag upper 5.56 - Eotech - xm193. Groups: .990/ 1.143/ 1.220/ .922/ 1.002/ avg 1.06" = 2.02 moa 3. FaucetFace: AR SBR-BCM 11.5” upper-AAC M42000-Aimpoint micro-Hornady 75gr BTHP over 25gr Varget. Groups: 1.18”/1.27”/1.434”/1.205”/1.581”/ avg. 1.334” = 2.55 MOA 4. M4A1Carbine: DPMS AR15 5.56 - EOTech 512 - 55gr .223. Groups: 2.776"/2.526"/1.651"/1.276"/.901" = avg 1.826" = 3.4874 MOA 5. Ratfink57: Vepr .308 16"-muzzle device- Aimpoint M2, 80s British surplus L2A2. Groups: 1.542 / 1.760 / 1.955 / 2.229 / 2.142 Avg. 1.926 = 3.678 MOA 6. nickforney: SGL 31 - Trijicon RMR 8 moa - Hornady 60gr steel case vmax. Groups: 3.037/ 1.845/ 1.841/ 1.800/ 2.072/ avg 2.12" = 4.04 MOA 7. SouthEndXGF: MSAR STG 556 - E4 16" 5.56x45/.223 - no customization - Eotech 512 - Wolf WPA 62gr HP Steel Case . Groups: 2.852/1.526/2.833/3.224/2.940/avg 4.675"= 7.110 MOA |
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Posted: 3/14/2014 8:11:14 PM EDT
[#4]
Quoted:
Some claim the AK is an inaccurate gun and can't hit a pie plate at 100 yards. Others claim 2 MOA. But what is your gun REALLY capable of consistently? The best I've gotten from my 5.45 AK's (Bulgy 74 and SGL-31) using a TWS Dogleg dust cover and magnified optics (Weaver V3 mostly), shooting at 50 yards, is a 1" group. That's 4-5 rounds per group. More commonly, I'm getting around 2" at 50 yards. Sometimes better, sometimes worse. This is using 7N6 mostly and resting the forearm on sandbags, sitting down. I haven't gone so far as to use a leadsled, etc. I keep wondering if it is the Dogleg but then again, maybe this is just what I should expect from my 5.45 AK's (and my not so great eyesight) realistically? I consider myself to be a decent shooter, but not a great one. Should I invest in Hornady 5.45 ammo to get better results? 2-4moa is pretty typical of an AK74. I'd say your rifle is right on track. Better ammo might tighten it up a little bit, but it probably isn't going to be enough to justify the cost of the ammo. |
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Posted: 3/14/2014 8:14:55 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
2-4moa is pretty typical of an AK74. I'd say your rifle is right on track. Better ammo might tighten it up a little bit, but it probably isn't going to be enough to justify the cost of the ammo. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Some claim the AK is an inaccurate gun and can't hit a pie plate at 100 yards. Others claim 2 MOA. But what is your gun REALLY capable of consistently? The best I've gotten from my 5.45 AK's (Bulgy 74 and SGL-31) using a TWS Dogleg dust cover and magnified optics (Weaver V3 mostly), shooting at 50 yards, is a 1" group. That's 4-5 rounds per group. More commonly, I'm getting around 2" at 50 yards. Sometimes better, sometimes worse. This is using 7N6 mostly and resting the forearm on sandbags, sitting down. I haven't gone so far as to use a leadsled, etc. I keep wondering if it is the Dogleg but then again, maybe this is just what I should expect from my 5.45 AK's (and my not so great eyesight) realistically? I consider myself to be a decent shooter, but not a great one. Should I invest in Hornady 5.45 ammo to get better results? 2-4moa is pretty typical of an AK74. I'd say your rifle is right on track. Better ammo might tighten it up a little bit, but it probably isn't going to be enough to justify the cost of the ammo. This. If you're consistently getting 2" five round groups at 50 yards then I'd say that's pretty good. Most stock AR's won't do any better than that. |
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Posted: 3/14/2014 8:16:05 PM EDT
[#6]
under ideal conditions with a 6x optic and good ammo I have produced -1.5" groups @ 100m
with irons 3-4moa. that's pretty typical with either my bulgy or sgl. but the milled SAM7SF is a bit better with irons vs the stamped guns. |
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Posted: 3/14/2014 8:51:19 PM EDT
[#7]
Last time I measured my groups I was getting ~3.5 MOA at 50 yards (mean 1.75" over multiple groups). SGL-31 with 7N6, 3 round groups, unsupported prone, no jacket/sling, field conditions, crappy PK23 red dot. I don't always shoot that good, though.
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Posted: 3/14/2014 9:12:08 PM EDT
[#8]
I dont measure my groups. At 100 yards i shoot at 4-5" diameter cardboard circles.
All of my AK's (7.62x39 only)with iron sights only, can consistently hit those unless its my fault. Thats good enough for me and for what the rifle was designed for. I have had several people say thats not that good. I then hold the 4-5" circles with the bullet holes up to their chests and say it is good enough. 
I'll try to post some pics later today if i can find any targets i may still have. |
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Posted: 3/14/2014 9:19:37 PM EDT
[#9]
Shot with an Arsenal SGL 21. The middle shot of the three that are touching was shot on a previous string that I forgot to tape. This was shot from the bench in a rest from 100 yards, shooting Herters 122 grain HP's, using a Vortex Strikefire red dot.
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Posted: 3/14/2014 9:20:48 PM EDT
[#10]
Not very, and opens up with distance. At 200 yards, with wolf 7.62X39 ammo, a 2' group is about right. Good enough for government work with a 30 round mag behind it, but not very satisfying to shoot. Much better at 50 and 100 yards. Can hit a can or water bottle most of the time.
Better ammo helps at the longer ranges. But even then, 1' group is about as good as it gets at 200 yards. Ak's are kind of a POS. I just shoot my AR now. AK's are fine and fun for close range spray fire though. |
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Posted: 3/14/2014 10:03:43 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not very, and opens up with distance. Nonsense. Please explain how a 2 MOA gun at 50 or 100 yards becomes a 6 MOA gun at 200 yards? Shooter error is the only way I am aware of. I love how some cannot distinguish the delta between shooter and gun capability. |
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Posted: 3/14/2014 11:02:13 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Nonsense. Please explain how a 2 MOA gun at 50 or 100 yards becomes a 6 MOA gun at 200 yards? Shooter error is the only way I am aware of. I love how some cannot distinguish the delta between shooter and gun capability. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Not very, and opens up with distance. Nonsense. Please explain how a 2 MOA gun at 50 or 100 yards becomes a 6 MOA gun at 200 yards? Shooter error is the only way I am aware of. I love how some cannot distinguish the delta between shooter and gun capability. Maybe. I was guessing cheap bullets with sketchy charge quality that start to veer, but don't really know. When I shoot high-power with an M1 or AR, shooting goes just fine at 200 yards. |
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Posted: 3/14/2014 11:52:36 PM EDT
[#13]
Last time I took out my Tantal I was averaging 3 MOA. I'm sure it is capable of tighter groups in a better shooters hands, though.
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Posted: 3/15/2014 3:24:44 AM EDT
[#14]
I shoot my bolt guns for groups. With my AK's, I have a simpler standard to determine field worthiness of a rifle. I will place a half dozen or so one gallon milk jugs at a hundred yards and fire at them from a standing position. As long as the intended jug dances with each squeeze of the trigger... That's accurate enough for what my Kalashnikov rifles are intended for. Most of my training time with the AK system is spent shooting on the move, from behind cover, practicing mag changes, transitioning between sidearm, and firing from various positions. Supreme accuracy is not my goal with these types of rifles. It does appear however, that some of them can be quite accurate in skilled hands. Good shooting.
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Posted: 3/15/2014 3:54:05 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lazyengineer:
Ak's are kind of a POS. I just shoot my AR now. AK's are fine and fun for close range spray fire though. mmmkaaayyy.... |
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Posted: 3/15/2014 4:00:17 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not very, and opens up with distance. At 200 yards, with wolf 7.62X39 ammo, a 2' group is about right. Good enough for government work with a 30 round mag behind it, but not very satisfying to shoot. Much better at 50 and 100 yards. Can hit a can or water bottle most of the time. Better ammo helps at the longer ranges. But even then, 1' group is about as good as it gets at 200 yards. Ak's are kind of a POS. I just shoot my AR now. AK's are fine and fun for close range spray fire though. When did .5 moa become not good? Most guns and people will never shoot 1'' at 200 yards in their life. Edit = I see, one foot not one inch. Ak's are certainly better than one foot moa. Basically a barrel aims in a direction and the bullet goes that way. Unless a barrel is bent or smooth bore a bullet will go where the barrel points no matter the gun. Guns with vibration from a piston, (like an AK) can alter the bullet slightly as it leaves the barrel but any rifle barrel is going to be a 1-2 moa if you take the vibration and movement from the equation. An AR is a little more accurate than an AK mostly because of less recoil and vibration but not to the extent of one foot at 100 yards.. A rifle of any kind that can not do better than 12 moa has something wrong with the barrel. From my experience a 16'' AK set up with a scope for long range will be in the 2moa range with decent ammo, 3-4 moa with wolf. |
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Posted: 3/15/2014 4:14:04 AM EDT
[#17]
I had a perfect bullseye last weekend at 100.
Then hit everywhere in an 6" circle after that
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Posted: 3/15/2014 5:07:42 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
mmmkaaayyy.... Quote HistoryQuoted:
Originally Posted By lazyengineer:
Ak's are kind of a POS. I just shoot my AR now. AK's are fine and fun for close range spray fire though. mmmkaaayyy.... +1...POS? ya whatever....its a better combat rifle design than the AR. |
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Posted: 3/15/2014 5:50:02 AM EDT
[#19]
Man, didn't mean to start a flame war. Just commenting that my AK is not very accurate.
As to why, here's some high-speed camera footage to take a peek at: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xeeeFxA_9nA Observe the barrel whip. It's pretty bad with an AK, so yea, it's no wonder they throw bullets all over the place. |
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Posted: 3/15/2014 6:23:24 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Man, didn't mean to start a flame war. Just commenting that my AK is not very accurate. As to why, here's some high-speed camera footage to take a peek at: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xeeeFxA_9nA Observe the barrel whip. It's pretty bad with an AK, so yea, it's no wonder they throw bullets all over the place. |
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Posted: 3/15/2014 6:28:39 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I found the results of that challenge and I got first place in the non-magnified optic category even though I was using iron sights :
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I found the results of that challenge and I got first place in the non-magnified optic category even though I was using iron sights :
1. AEnemaBay: Bulgarian AK-74 (home built), stock iron sights, 1989 Bulgarian 7n6 surplus: 0.786" / 0.786" / 0.786" / 1.098" / 1.161" = Average 0.923" @ 50 yards = 1.762 MOA 2. nickforney: Stag upper 5.56 - Eotech - xm193. Groups: .990/ 1.143/ 1.220/ .922/ 1.002/ avg 1.06" = 2.02 moa 3. FaucetFace: AR SBR-BCM 11.5” upper-AAC M42000-Aimpoint micro-Hornady 75gr BTHP over 25gr Varget. Groups: 1.18”/1.27”/1.434”/1.205”/1.581”/ avg. 1.334” = 2.55 MOA 4. M4A1Carbine: DPMS AR15 5.56 - EOTech 512 - 55gr .223. Groups: 2.776"/2.526"/1.651"/1.276"/.901" = avg 1.826" = 3.4874 MOA 5. Ratfink57: Vepr .308 16"-muzzle device- Aimpoint M2, 80s British surplus L2A2. Groups: 1.542 / 1.760 / 1.955 / 2.229 / 2.142 Avg. 1.926 = 3.678 MOA 6. nickforney: SGL 31 - Trijicon RMR 8 moa - Hornady 60gr steel case vmax. Groups: 3.037/ 1.845/ 1.841/ 1.800/ 2.072/ avg 2.12" = 4.04 MOA 7. SouthEndXGF: MSAR STG 556 - E4 16" 5.56x45/.223 - no customization - Eotech 512 - Wolf WPA 62gr HP Steel Case . Groups: 2.852/1.526/2.833/3.224/2.940/avg 4.675"= 7.110 MOA Somebody messed that up and it was not me, this time.
You were actually listed in 2 spots but I change that. 
Service Division (AR/AK/FAL/M1A1 etc style weapons) Iron sights at 50 yards 1. nickforney: Noveske Recon 16" 5.56 - Geissele SSA-E trigger - Troy Iron sights - Hornady Superformance 53 grain vmax Groups: .546/ .922/ .535/ .453/ .373/ avg .5658 = 1.0806 MOA 2.Mwieczorek, Rock River NM AR-15, Geissele service rifle trigger, Bob Jones sight insert, Weller sling, 69 grain HPBT handloads, Groups: 0.560, 0.534, 0.780, 0.536, 0.659, average 0.614 = 1.17 MOA 3 Trobertson5-0: Springfield Armory(the real one!!) U.S Rifle Caliber .30 M1 -Purpose built JCG rifle. FGMM 168gr 30/06. Groups: .634"/.692"/.792"/.710"/1.042"/avg .774"= 1.48 MOA 4.Old_Painless/ M1A Springfield, .308, iron sights, 50 yds, Handloads/ Groups 1.215/ .790/ .728/ .720/ .752/ Average= .841/ = 1.606 MOA 5.Trobertson5-0: Colt Hbar Competition 1/9 - Matech irons - 52gr Berger match HP handload. Groups: 1.114"/.885"/.868"/.827"/.632/ avg .8652 = 1.65 MOA 6. AEnemaBay: Bulgarian AK-74 (home built), stock iron sights, 1989 Bulgarian 7n6 surplus. Groups: 0.786" / 0.786" / 0.786" / 1.098" / 1.161"/ Avg 0.923" = 1.762 MOA 7. fervid_dryfire: DPMS 5.56mm/.223 - Geisselle trigger- Iron sights- Fiocchi 55gr FMJ. Groups: .629/.943/.854/1.505/.671 = avg. .9204" = 1.7994 MOA 8. Old_Painless: Swiss K-31 - iron sights - Swiss milsurp ammo. Groups .965"/.914"/.847"/1.529"/.869"/Avg 1.0248 = 1.96 MOA 9.Old_Painless/ Springfield 1903, .30-06, iron sights, 50 yds/ Handloads/ Groups: .877/ 1.075/ 1.291/ 1.434/ .932/ Average 1.1218/ = 2.143 MOA |
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Posted: 3/15/2014 6:31:10 AM EDT
[#22]
MAK 90 shoots 3-4" at 100yds. Can hit my little 7x17" torso popper at 200yds with it pretty easily. Need to put it on paper beyond that, I don't really know.
That's nowhere near precision shooting but it's "combat accurate".
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Posted: 3/15/2014 6:38:24 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Man, didn't mean to start a flame war. Just commenting that my AK is not very accurate. As to why, here's some high-speed camera footage to take a peek at: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xeeeFxA_9nA Observe the barrel whip. It's pretty bad with an AK, so yea, it's no wonder they throw bullets all over the place. Yeah because AR's don't flex at all......Link |
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Posted: 3/15/2014 6:50:43 AM EDT
[#24]
Going back to my original question, what factors would influence the practical accuracy of my AK?
Do you guys think I would see better results with Hornady 5.45 vs. 7n6 (which I use exclusively)? Is the Hornady a more accurate round? |
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Posted: 3/15/2014 6:57:35 AM EDT
[#25]
I shoot about 4"-5" 10 shot groups @ 100yards w/ my Norinco under folder. I shot about 3"-4" with my SGL31. Maybe i could tighten them up a little if i used a sled... i'm assuming there is some user error in there.
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Posted: 3/15/2014 7:16:16 AM EDT
[#26]
#1. You must be able to shoot cohesive groups in order to make sight adjustments meaningful and productive. Otherwise, you will shoot up a lot of ammo chasing your sights all day and still not be sighted in.
#2. 2" at 50 and 4" at 100 are decent groups with the AK with iron sights. You will probably have to find the ammo that works best for you. Once you do, and sight in with it, that's all you should use. #3. The purpose of carefully sighting in from a rested position is simply to make sure that the rifle is hitting the bull's eye at the point on the trajectory you have chosen to make that determination. For example, 50 yds is a good compromise range where most shooters can settle down and get some good groups, and it also conveniently is the zero point for the 100 yd zero with the rear sight on '1'. #4. Once you have found your ammo and have sighted in to the best of your ability, then blast away from any position, rested or not, with the assurance that it is not the rifle or ammo when you miss. It is very important to have that fact in mind when plinking. Aim small, miss small. |
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Posted: 3/15/2014 7:21:17 AM EDT
[#27]
Mine are all as accurate as they were intended to be, and they weren't intended to be sniper rifles. That being said, I have never shot them for groups, something I will have to try sometime.
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Posted: 3/15/2014 7:25:28 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Man, didn't mean to start a flame war. Just commenting that my AK is not very accurate. As to why, here's some high-speed camera footage to take a peek at: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xeeeFxA_9nA Observe the barrel whip. It's pretty bad with an AK, so yea, it's no wonder they throw bullets all over the place. Yeah because AR's don't flex at all......Link Oh snap! That barrel whip on the AR looks worse then the AK. |
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Posted: 3/15/2014 7:50:35 AM EDT
[#29]
AK's are more accurate than most shooters. With decent optics and decent ammo and a good trigger, you should be able to get to 2". Some guns even less. The SAM7SF is capable of under 2". My SAM7SF-84 gets around 3.5 to 4" with irons. My SGL31 gets around 2.5-3" farily consistantly with non magnified optics. The Vepr 5.45 is even less than that.
I cant help but laugh when people say these weapons are not accurate. |
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Posted: 3/15/2014 8:50:00 AM EDT
[#30]
Here is one of my targets from 100 yards on a crude bench rest.
Rifle is a converted Saiga 7.62x39, Tula FMJ My original Polish barreled UF will shoot better than the Saiga. 
I agree, anyone that says AK's are not accurate is a fool. 
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Posted: 3/15/2014 9:21:07 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Nonsense. Please explain how a 2 MOA gun at 50 or 100 yards becomes a 6 MOA gun at 200 yards? Shooter error is the only way I am aware of. I love how some cannot distinguish the delta between shooter and gun capability. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Not very, and opens up with distance. Nonsense. Please explain how a 2 MOA gun at 50 or 100 yards becomes a 6 MOA gun at 200 yards? Shooter error is the only way I am aware of. I love how some cannot distinguish the delta between shooter and gun capability. That's a simple explanation, past 100y or so, the SIGHTS and the shooter's ability to be consistent are MUCH more of a factor than the mechanical accuracy of the gun... AK sights are not designed for or conducive to long range accuracy. I run Tech Sights on my AK and have managed Rifleman at an appleseed shoot with generic Wolf ammo, but I have never taken it out past 100... |
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Posted: 3/15/2014 3:48:40 PM EDT
[#32]
I have multiple Arsenal Bulgarian AK in both 5.45(SLR104FR) and 7.62(SLR107FR), couple Colt 6920 and a Colt 6920 SOCOM(thicker barrel under HG).
From my experience a standard 16" barrel AK rifle in 5.45 has a best potential accuracy of about 2-3MOA 5 shot group with red dot or magnified optic. For 7.62x39 with the same barrel profile, probably 2-4MOA, but 2MOA is quite a bit harder to do when compared to a 5.45 rifle. A standard AR15 with good barrel can do 1-2MOA 5 shot groups with RD or scope. For me, since I only have a red dot, the best group I had ever gotten from my 6920 was a 1.6" 5 shot group, since I usually get 2" groups I am pretty sure it was luck IMHO, the best potential accuracy between AK74 and AR15 isn't all that different. HOWEVER, what I do notice is the decrease of accuracy after continuous firing from the AK platform with standard barrel. I notice the groups from my AK rifles will start to loose accuracy as the pencil barrel starts to heat up. After 30-40rds, the grouping starts to enlarge from a 2" group to a 5" group, but it seems to maintain that grouping even after 120rds of slow pace fire. (4 sec per shot) IMHO, this is where the heavy barrel on an AR15 or the VEPR shines, since they can maintain their best potential accuracy longer. I don't have a VEPR, but my AR can maintain a 3" group after shooting 60rds. Aside from the barrel thickness, ammo quality is also another important factor. From my experience, my 6920 with its 1/7 twist, will not shoot well with Wolf or Tula 55gr ammo, the best I did was a 2.5" group from 100yards and usually I do 3". It shot better with brass cased copper jacketed lead core bullet, mostly 2" groups. As for the bullet weight affecting accuracy, I couldn't really tell if there's a difference. As for the AK platform, it seems to shoot the same no matter what kind of ammo I put it through, but I do notice that both 7.62x39 and 5.45x39 rifles performed the best with Wolf Mil Classic ammo. I have tried Golden Tiger, Wolf, Wolf Mil Classic, Tula, Fiocchi, Hornady, and Yugo surplus, and for me, Wolf Classic did the best. |
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Posted: 3/15/2014 5:08:33 PM EDT
[#33]
SLR-106FR @ 50Y while sighting in a Trijicon RMR. Remington 55gr FMJ from WalMart. I think the black square bullseye is exactly 1". Good enough for me... |
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Posted: 3/15/2014 9:16:08 PM EDT
[#34]
I hate to be the cynical old fart in the group who states the obvious, but this line of questioning is beginning to get a tad bit old. I have seen plenty of guys shoot >1MOA with an AK over the years and plenty of guys (and by guys I mean guys and gals) shoot <1MOA with an AR/M16 even an A2. Personally, I don't want a well trained, confident individual shooting at me with an AK. If you want >1MOA all the time buy a bench rest rifle and an air tank with a regulator so you can shoot in a vacuum. Otherwise pick a good rifle (the AK and the AR both qualify) train hard, and don't worry about it.
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Posted: 3/16/2014 4:51:20 AM EDT
[#35]
Well, there are a lot of morons who think com-bloc rifles are inaccurate. I've changed a few people's opinions at the 180 yard range hitting steel with my iron sighted VZ58 offhand while they couldn't with their [insert super tacticool Western rifle].
Never will I say my VZ or AK is better than an AR. I've invested a lot more money in my ARs because I prefer to shoot them. People just need to quit basing everything they know off of TV shows. |
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Posted: 3/16/2014 6:17:07 AM EDT
[#36]
50 yards. trs-25 on the saiga
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Posted: 3/16/2014 7:24:04 AM EDT
[#37]
5 inch @ 100 yds. Mak-90 rested. I wanted to say 4 but I... really usually don't. I love that rifle.
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Posted: 3/16/2014 11:05:26 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryFin, Is this with your new 7.62 Saiga project? What is your benchrest setup for these results? What is your typical 3 or 5 shot group? In response to other posts, I'm not trying to make my AK-74 into a benchrest rifle. I'm just trying to make sure I'm not the only one who regularly gets 2" groups (that's 4-5 shots max) using 7N6 at 50 yds, sometimes more. Just trying to rule out user error and the TWS Dogleg rail here. |
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Posted: 3/16/2014 12:15:17 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Fin, Is this with your new 7.62 Saiga project? What is your benchrest setup for these results? What is your typical 3 or 5 shot group? In response to other posts, I'm not trying to make my AK-74 into a benchrest rifle. I'm just trying to make sure I'm not the only one who regularly gets 2" groups (that's 4-5 shots max) using 7N6 at 50 yds, sometimes more. Just trying to rule out user error and the TWS Dogleg rail here. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Fin, Is this with your new 7.62 Saiga project? What is your benchrest setup for these results? What is your typical 3 or 5 shot group? In response to other posts, I'm not trying to make my AK-74 into a benchrest rifle. I'm just trying to make sure I'm not the only one who regularly gets 2" groups (that's 4-5 shots max) using 7N6 at 50 yds, sometimes more. Just trying to rule out user error and the TWS Dogleg rail here. Yes sir it is. For these, I used a couple of sandbags on top of a tripod. I kept my support hand at the rear of the tripod holding the forearm - to support and keep as much downward pressure off the barrel. I had my trs 25 dialed down to "3/4", shot with both eyes open. With the targets I used, I just let the dot cover the red bullseye. This group was shot as a test to see if the MI mount had a solid RTZ ability - it does for what I plan on using the rifle for. I also shot on the trigger reset to remove as much error as possible - something I don't normally do on AK's. I cant recall if this was shot with Golden Tiger or Wolf white box contract ammo, as I was shooting both that day. Here is a pic of my setup 
As to the typical 3-5 shot group, I don't normally shoot for groups, but when I do I like to use the "10 shot group" to judge results (do so on my AR's to test various loads) - but I'll see what I can do for you this weekend at the TN HTF shoot. I'll also see how far out I can hit 6" / 8" / 10" plates with the saiga. Ranges go from 50 yards - 1500 yards I'll limit myself out to 250-300
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Posted: 3/16/2014 12:38:22 PM EDT
[#40]
Went out to the desert earlier today. Best two 6 shot groups with SLR-104FR at 54 paces (~50 yds).
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Posted: 3/16/2014 1:06:51 PM EDT
[#41]
I don't shoot for groups with an AK, and instead shoot at 12 x18 targets out to 400m. The 74 will hit with boring consistency. More than adequate for an infantry weapon.
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Posted: 3/16/2014 1:18:32 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ak's are kind of a POS. I just shoot my AR now. AK's are fine and fun for close range spray fire though. This is just plain stupid. I would strongly question the intelligence and actual firearms experience of anyone who would say such a thing. It's the equivalent of saying that ARs constantly jam every other round... stupid. ETA - With irons, I've found that 2.5-3'' groups are pretty easy for me with just about every AK I have shot. |
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Posted: 3/16/2014 1:29:45 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Somebody messed that up and it was not me, this time.
You were actually listed in 2 spots but I change that.
Service Division (AR/AK/FAL/M1A1 etc style weapons) Iron sights at 50 yards 1. nickforney: Noveske Recon 16" 5.56 - Geissele SSA-E trigger - Troy Iron sights - Hornady Superformance 53 grain vmax Groups: .546/ .922/ .535/ .453/ .373/ avg .5658 = 1.0806 MOA 2.Mwieczorek, Rock River NM AR-15, Geissele service rifle trigger, Bob Jones sight insert, Weller sling, 69 grain HPBT handloads, Groups: 0.560, 0.534, 0.780, 0.536, 0.659, average 0.614 = 1.17 MOA 3 Trobertson5-0: Springfield Armory(the real one!!) U.S Rifle Caliber .30 M1 -Purpose built JCG rifle. FGMM 168gr 30/06. Groups: .634"/.692"/.792"/.710"/1.042"/avg .774"= 1.48 MOA 4.Old_Painless/ M1A Springfield, .308, iron sights, 50 yds, Handloads/ Groups 1.215/ .790/ .728/ .720/ .752/ Average= .841/ = 1.606 MOA 5.Trobertson5-0: Colt Hbar Competition 1/9 - Matech irons - 52gr Berger match HP handload. Groups: 1.114"/.885"/.868"/.827"/.632/ avg .8652 = 1.65 MOA 6. AEnemaBay: Bulgarian AK-74 (home built), stock iron sights, 1989 Bulgarian 7n6 surplus. Groups: 0.786" / 0.786" / 0.786" / 1.098" / 1.161"/ Avg 0.923" = 1.762 MOA 7. fervid_dryfire: DPMS 5.56mm/.223 - Geisselle trigger- Iron sights- Fiocchi 55gr FMJ. Groups: .629/.943/.854/1.505/.671 = avg. .9204" = 1.7994 MOA 8. Old_Painless: Swiss K-31 - iron sights - Swiss milsurp ammo. Groups .965"/.914"/.847"/1.529"/.869"/Avg 1.0248 = 1.96 MOA 9.Old_Painless/ Springfield 1903, .30-06, iron sights, 50 yds/ Handloads/ Groups: .877/ 1.075/ 1.291/ 1.434/ .932/ Average 1.1218/ = 2.143 MOA Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I found the results of that challenge and I got first place in the non-magnified optic category even though I was using iron sights :
1. AEnemaBay: Bulgarian AK-74 (home built), stock iron sights, 1989 Bulgarian 7n6 surplus: 0.786" / 0.786" / 0.786" / 1.098" / 1.161" = Average 0.923" @ 50 yards = 1.762 MOA 2. nickforney: Stag upper 5.56 - Eotech - xm193. Groups: .990/ 1.143/ 1.220/ .922/ 1.002/ avg 1.06" = 2.02 moa 3. FaucetFace: AR SBR-BCM 11.5” upper-AAC M42000-Aimpoint micro-Hornady 75gr BTHP over 25gr Varget. Groups: 1.18”/1.27”/1.434”/1.205”/1.581”/ avg. 1.334” = 2.55 MOA 4. M4A1Carbine: DPMS AR15 5.56 - EOTech 512 - 55gr .223. Groups: 2.776"/2.526"/1.651"/1.276"/.901" = avg 1.826" = 3.4874 MOA 5. Ratfink57: Vepr .308 16"-muzzle device- Aimpoint M2, 80s British surplus L2A2. Groups: 1.542 / 1.760 / 1.955 / 2.229 / 2.142 Avg. 1.926 = 3.678 MOA 6. nickforney: SGL 31 - Trijicon RMR 8 moa - Hornady 60gr steel case vmax. Groups: 3.037/ 1.845/ 1.841/ 1.800/ 2.072/ avg 2.12" = 4.04 MOA 7. SouthEndXGF: MSAR STG 556 - E4 16" 5.56x45/.223 - no customization - Eotech 512 - Wolf WPA 62gr HP Steel Case . Groups: 2.852/1.526/2.833/3.224/2.940/avg 4.675"= 7.110 MOA Somebody messed that up and it was not me, this time.
You were actually listed in 2 spots but I change that.
Service Division (AR/AK/FAL/M1A1 etc style weapons) Iron sights at 50 yards 1. nickforney: Noveske Recon 16" 5.56 - Geissele SSA-E trigger - Troy Iron sights - Hornady Superformance 53 grain vmax Groups: .546/ .922/ .535/ .453/ .373/ avg .5658 = 1.0806 MOA 2.Mwieczorek, Rock River NM AR-15, Geissele service rifle trigger, Bob Jones sight insert, Weller sling, 69 grain HPBT handloads, Groups: 0.560, 0.534, 0.780, 0.536, 0.659, average 0.614 = 1.17 MOA 3 Trobertson5-0: Springfield Armory(the real one!!) U.S Rifle Caliber .30 M1 -Purpose built JCG rifle. FGMM 168gr 30/06. Groups: .634"/.692"/.792"/.710"/1.042"/avg .774"= 1.48 MOA 4.Old_Painless/ M1A Springfield, .308, iron sights, 50 yds, Handloads/ Groups 1.215/ .790/ .728/ .720/ .752/ Average= .841/ = 1.606 MOA 5.Trobertson5-0: Colt Hbar Competition 1/9 - Matech irons - 52gr Berger match HP handload. Groups: 1.114"/.885"/.868"/.827"/.632/ avg .8652 = 1.65 MOA 6. AEnemaBay: Bulgarian AK-74 (home built), stock iron sights, 1989 Bulgarian 7n6 surplus. Groups: 0.786" / 0.786" / 0.786" / 1.098" / 1.161"/ Avg 0.923" = 1.762 MOA 7. fervid_dryfire: DPMS 5.56mm/.223 - Geisselle trigger- Iron sights- Fiocchi 55gr FMJ. Groups: .629/.943/.854/1.505/.671 = avg. .9204" = 1.7994 MOA 8. Old_Painless: Swiss K-31 - iron sights - Swiss milsurp ammo. Groups .965"/.914"/.847"/1.529"/.869"/Avg 1.0248 = 1.96 MOA 9.Old_Painless/ Springfield 1903, .30-06, iron sights, 50 yds/ Handloads/ Groups: .877/ 1.075/ 1.291/ 1.434/ .932/ Average 1.1218/ = 2.143 MOA I had my sgl cut and crowned will have to see what it did to accuracy later in the spring when it isn't so miserable out. Remember that AEnemaBay has a pretty tight shooting ak. I haven't seen many 5.45 aks or 5.45 guns in general that have ever shot that well. I was impressed with my stag upper shooting military ball being able to average 2.02. The AK shooting with 7n6 that well is very impressive. These are not extreme accurate guns but they are reliable that is why I like them. |
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Posted: 3/16/2014 1:44:47 PM EDT
[#44]
My Vepr'll shoot the tits off a skeeter at 200 paces.
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Posted: 3/16/2014 2:38:19 PM EDT
[#45]
Not really any major feat of long range accuracy, but still good enough to qualify with. I was shooting only for hits while being timed, so really small groups was not the main goal.
http://i1312.photobucket.com/albums/t532/479WAbd/015_zpsbeed71ba.jpg http://i1312.photobucket.com/albums/t532/479WAbd/011_zps755c9c17.jpg http://i1312.photobucket.com/albums/t532/479WAbd/006_zpsa1d8d1cf.jpg http://i1312.photobucket.com/albums/t532/479WAbd/017_zpscfd652b3.jpg |
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Posted: 3/16/2014 3:11:58 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
+1...POS? ya whatever....its a better combat rifle design than the AR. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Originally Posted By lazyengineer:
Ak's are kind of a POS. I just shoot my AR now. AK's are fine and fun for close range spray fire though. mmmkaaayyy.... +1...POS? ya whatever....its a better combat rifle design than the AR. Oh, really? Is it better because the AK design: Safety sucks. No bolt hold open. Terrible sights. Slow mag release & insertion. Heavy. Inaccurate. Reciprocating charging handle. Limited optics mount solutions. |
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Posted: 3/16/2014 3:19:21 PM EDT
[#47]
the bigger man normally just ignores troll like shit and continues to talk about the topic at hand which was accuracy that generally comes out of AK's. But yea totally it makes sense to go and stir up a fight instead.
donny ray awesome first post man. Did you fire it in the proper positions for the qual or did you do it all from the supported position? |
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Posted: 3/16/2014 3:28:57 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Oh, really? Is it better because the AK design: Safety sucks. No bolt hold open. Terrible sights. Slow mag release & insertion. Heavy. Inaccurate. Reciprocating charging handle. Limited optics mount solutions. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Originally Posted By lazyengineer:
Ak's are kind of a POS. I just shoot my AR now. AK's are fine and fun for close range spray fire though. mmmkaaayyy.... +1...POS? ya whatever....its a better combat rifle design than the AR. Oh, really? Is it better because the AK design: Safety sucks. No bolt hold open. Terrible sights. Slow mag release & insertion. Heavy. Inaccurate. Reciprocating charging handle. Limited optics mount solutions. About the only thing on that list that I can remotely give ya is the sights.....all else is removed from training.....seen guys very fast with the safety.....some mags are BHO.....lots of guys fast on the mags....a WASR is heavy?? who knew.....inaccurate..lolz......recip handle?? no extra do dad fwd assist here to break..its there and serves multiple functions...optics? hmmm.. side rail mount stock on most..TWS...Ultimak etc. don't think so I have built prob 3 dozen AR's and served with the thing..its a decent rifle overall, just too many small parts. MTK designed the parts on his rifle to serve several functions, thus reducing parts and complication. Safety is the dustcover, CH is also the fwd assist etc. If you sift through the chaff, its clear that it was designed for troops in the field. Beefy extractor, solid FIXED ejector that 99% of the time lasts the life of the rifle..I mean be reasonable man. 
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Posted: 3/16/2014 3:31:19 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Oh, really? Is it better because the AK design: Safety sucks. No bolt hold open. Terrible sights. Slow mag release & insertion. Heavy. Inaccurate. Reciprocating charging handle. Limited optics mount solutions. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Originally Posted By lazyengineer:
Ak's are kind of a POS. I just shoot my AR now. AK's are fine and fun for close range spray fire though. mmmkaaayyy.... +1...POS? ya whatever....its a better combat rifle design than the AR. Oh, really? Is it better because the AK design: Safety sucks. No bolt hold open. Terrible sights. Slow mag release & insertion. Heavy. Inaccurate. Reciprocating charging handle. Limited optics mount solutions. LOL you again. So what you're saying is you can't shoot an AK worth a shit right? 
I mean what is wrong with tangent sites, they have been used for centuries and are easy to use? Safety is an easy fix if that bothers you. The magazine is superior to an AR magazine which is one of its weaknesses (if we are talking standard issue). Why can't you change out an AK mag fast? It is really easy. I know that is super important to carbine class heros. Accurate enough as has been demonstrated repeatedly. Why can't you hit anything with an AK? Who cares, it does not interfere with anything for most shooters. There are hundreds of scopes and mounting solutions for an AK. Do you even forum bro? You remind me of the type that first discovers firearms and gets so invested in his choices that he repeats stupid internet myths without having any real practical knowledge or experience. |
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Posted: 3/16/2014 3:47:38 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
the bigger man normally just ignores troll like shit and continues to talk about the topic at hand which was accuracy that generally comes out of AK's. But yea totally it makes sense to go and stir up a fight instead. donny ray awesome first post man. Did you fire it in the proper positions for the qual or did you do it all from the supported position? I fired 20 rounds supported on my handy dandy super expensive tactical brick. And then 20 more laying in the grass in unsupported prone. |
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