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Posted: 10/22/2008 6:49:52 PM EDT
[#1]
DAMN. At least U are ok. Makes me nervous 2 see that .
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Posted: 10/24/2008 4:05:34 AM EDT
[#2]
Update!
Took the gun down and met Chris from AK USA at his shop yesterday; he found the gun to have excessive headspace, due to the fact that during the build, the barrel was not installed correctly: It wasn't pressed in far enough, allowing a rough .070" gap between the right locking lug and the bolt.  Enough room to start "peening" the bolt on each shot. His findings were backed up by the fact that when he pressed out the barrel pin, we could clearly see that the hole in the barrel was wallowed out, and not lining up correctly. I also had a good amount of play in the bottom handguard, which would have been considerably less had the barrel been installed a little deeper. The good news is that he thinks the receiver can be saved, but the front trunnion is screwed up. Don't know if it has any stress fractures, and the oval, wallowed out hole is not desirable at this point either. So at this point, it seems that most is lost, to rebuild would be the price of a kit and the price of someone to build it. Not sure if it's worth that at this point. I've contacted the guys who built it, and I'm expecting a response from them today, to see if this can be resolved.  Gap between bolt lug and locking lug.  Bolt pulled back onto lug, revealing gap between bolt and chamber.  Tough shot, but here you see the bolt-pin channel off centered in the barrel. |
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Posted: 10/24/2008 4:48:23 AM EDT
[#3]
Damn.....
 On a brighter note - rottrob has the tools. 
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Posted: 10/24/2008 6:16:52 AM EDT
[#4]
"he found the gun to have excessive headspace, due to the fact that during the build, the barrel was not installed correctly"
And that's why I have headspace gauges for the rifles. BSW |
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Posted: 10/24/2008 6:29:44 AM EDT
[#5]
Since it was improperly built, I don't see where you should be paying anything, other than shipping possibly. |
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Posted: 10/24/2008 9:48:47 AM EDT
[#6]
1+ And Punani should get reimbursed for another $200 tax stamp too. |
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Posted: 10/24/2008 11:03:51 AM EDT
[#7]
As long as the receiver can be saved, and it sounds like that is a decent possibility, then he won't need to pay $200 for another stamp and go through the several month long wait time either... Bad headspacing...that sucks. Hopefully you can get your rifle rebuilt for you. If you paid someone to do the build, I don't see how you should be responsible for this. |
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Posted: 10/24/2008 4:27:52 PM EDT
[#8]
True, but doesn't the trunion's serial number have to match the reciever's serial number? And from what I understand, He needs a new trunion. So unless I'm wrong about the serial number problem, he will need a new tax stamp. Again, I could be wrong, it's happened before. 
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Posted: 10/24/2008 4:59:46 PM EDT
[#9]
My understanding is that the ATF considers the sheetmetal part of the receiver to be the firearm, not the trunnion. For example, these www.nodakspud.com/page2.htm require shipment to an FFL. I believe that if a trunnion is riveted to a receiver then the trunnion's serial number can be used. I guess it comes down to what serial is in the NFA registry, the sheetmetal receiver or the trunnion's. BSW |
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Posted: 10/24/2008 6:24:15 PM EDT
[#10]
On a Spud, the reciever is the registered part. On imports, it is the trunion.
You are safe replacing the trunion. If Chris can't get you a new topcover and trunion, call Troy Sellars at Inrange and see if he can cover you. Or just get a new kit and get somebody good to rebuild it this time. A reputable smith will build it so that its a tight lock-up knowing the barrel will set a bit after a few rounds. To add: I called it right! |
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Posted: 10/24/2008 7:14:38 PM EDT
[#11]
Receiver is AUSA, and the registered part. Who is Troy at Inrange? |
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Posted: 10/24/2008 7:18:17 PM EDT
[#12]
www.inrangec2.com
He builds lots of Krinks. Built mine. If you live near Chris Butler, why not use him? |
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Posted: 10/24/2008 11:19:11 PM EDT
[#13]
Wow Dan I really liked that gun. I am glad that you are ok. And I sinserly hope she can be fixxed up right..
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Posted: 10/25/2008 6:22:44 PM EDT
[#14]
Similar event for me, except it was Wolf .308 in my HK21k.
Puff of smoke and didn't go bang as much as it normally does. No damage to the gun (these are pretty stout compared to an AK dust cover). Blew the base clean off the case. Looks like a button on a shirt. The rest of the case got caught in the feed mech. I'm pretty sure it was the ammo. Here's the video link. I couldn't make it hot because I can't figure out the "updated" software on this site. http://myspacetv.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=43285866 ETA: sorry I didn't read past the first post on the third page since I thought that was the end because of THE NEW FUCKING INLINE ADVERTISING THAT JUST FUCKING SUCKS! Anyway I hope you enjoyed the video. 
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Posted: 10/26/2008 1:13:33 PM EDT
[#15]
 And at last...the case. |
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Posted: 10/26/2008 6:33:22 PM EDT
[#16]
Glad you're ok.
Update on the rifle? Who did build it? |
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Posted: 10/27/2008 7:03:01 AM EDT
[#17]
Am I seeing things, or does it look like there's some sort of sleeve on the inside of the case? 
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Posted: 10/27/2008 7:41:08 AM EDT
[#18]
Quoted:
Am I seeing things, or does it look like there's some sort of sleeve on the inside of the case? Not a sleeve, it just gets really thin towards the end. |
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Posted: 10/27/2008 8:15:20 PM EDT
[#19]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Am I seeing things, or does it look like there's some sort of sleeve on the inside of the case? Not a sleeve, it just gets really thin towards the end. Ah, I see it now. I had to zoom in to see what it really was. That sliver on the bottom edge makes it look like there's a sleeve inside the case. |
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Posted: 12/3/2008 9:18:46 PM EDT
[#20]
I guess the lesson here is to only have guys who are highly experienced with AK's working on your AK-47's. Glad to see you're ok. :)
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Posted: 12/10/2008 5:19:02 AM EDT
[#21]
I dont think you need experianced builders to do it, just competant ones. I built my own from kits . . . .but i made sure as hell to spend the extra 75 bux to get some headspace guages. Its sad to hear people just reline up the pin holes and push them back in, as seen here that trying to save 75 dollars can result in loss of close to a grand worth of parts kit.
By the way not blaming the topic poster with this comment, this is clearly the builders issue, and i feel bad for his loss. Glad to hear your ok after something like that too. Pat |
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Posted: 12/10/2008 11:35:38 AM EDT
[#22]
Quoted:
I dont think you need experianced builders to do it, just competant ones. I built my own from kits . . . .but i made sure as hell to spend the extra 75 bux to get some headspace guages. Its sad to hear people just reline up the pin holes and push them back in, as seen here that trying to save 75 dollars can result in loss of close to a grand worth of parts kit. Pat +2. Bought a kit at one point, guy just said "mark the barrel at the trunion before you pull it out, then just press it back in to that point. No need to headspace."
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Posted: 12/10/2008 11:47:31 AM EDT
[#23]
This might be a stupid question, but why wouldn't pressing the barrel back in and reinstalling the original pin now headspace correctly? If the part wasn't a virgin kit with no barrel pin hole drilled, would reinstalling barrel pin move the barrel enough in one direction to change the factory headspace?
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Posted: 12/10/2008 1:20:39 PM EDT
[#24]
Quoted:
This might be a stupid question, but why wouldn't pressing the barrel back in and reinstalling the original pin now headspace correctly? If the part wasn't a virgin kit with no barrel pin hole drilled, would reinstalling barrel pin move the barrel enough in one direction to change the factory headspace? The trunnion was damaged. |
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Posted: 12/11/2008 5:32:01 AM EDT
[#25]
Quoted:
This might be a stupid question, but why wouldn't pressing the barrel back in and reinstalling the original pin now headspace correctly? If the part wasn't a virgin kit with no barrel pin hole drilled, would reinstalling barrel pin move the barrel enough in one direction to change the factory headspace? The trunnion was damaged Maybe I need to clarify,I didn't mean that he could re-use the trunnion and barrel that kaboomed. VAhunter and SLUHstud said it wasn't wise to shoot a gun built off of a kit unless you checked the headspace with gages after pressing the barrel back in. My thought is that verifying with headspace gages isn't really necessary since headspace was set at the factory and cannot change if you press the original pin back in original the trunnion and barrel. There is no way that if the original holes line up enough to reinstall the barrel pin, that the headspace is going to change enough to cause a kaboom unless headspace was off from the factory to begin with. On a virgin kit with undrilled hole, it is absolutely necessary to check headspace as you press in the barrel and once it is correct, then you drill the barrel pin hole and install it. I may be wrong, so I am hoping that somebody can explain how headspace is going to change by removing and reinstalling the factory headspaced barrel. |
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Posted: 12/11/2008 7:17:33 AM EDT
[#26]
Quoted:
This might be a stupid question, but why wouldn't pressing the barrel back in and reinstalling the original pin now headspace correctly? If the part wasn't a virgin kit with no barrel pin hole drilled, would reinstalling barrel pin move the barrel enough in one direction to change the factory headspace? Because you're relying on the QC of guys that were issued 100g of vodka for lunch and paid with script? Maybe the guy that assembled your rifle wasn't a drunk, maybe the inspector wasn't thinking about how pissed his old lady was, maybe the factory wasn't behind it's quota and all the workers were going to be sent to clean a pig farm if they didn't catch up... If you're building rifles, check the headspace. The gauges aren't that expensive and you can probably borrow them from somebody on your area if you ask on your hometown forum. Catching an excess headspace problem can prevent damage to valuable equipment, or your eyes and hands. BSW |
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Posted: 12/11/2008 7:19:48 AM EDT
[#27]
Quoted:
Quoted:
This might be a stupid question, but why wouldn't pressing the barrel back in and reinstalling the original pin now headspace correctly? If the part wasn't a virgin kit with no barrel pin hole drilled, would reinstalling barrel pin move the barrel enough in one direction to change the factory headspace? Because you're relying on the QC of guys that were issued 100g of vodka for lunch and paid with script? Maybe the guy that assembled your rifle wasn't a drunk, maybe the inspector wasn't thinking about how pissed his old lady was, maybe the factory wasn't behind it's quota and all the workers were going to be sent to clean a pig farm if they didn't catch up... If you're building rifles, check the headspace. The gauges aren't that expensive and you can probably borrow them from somebody on your area if you ask on your hometown forum. Catching an excess headspace problem can prevent damage to valuable equipment, or your eyes and hands. BSW Agreed. Builder claims headspace gauges were used, and checked fine. |
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Posted: 12/11/2008 3:02:47 PM EDT
[#28]
I always check the head space to cover my ass. To me it was 75 bux well spent to know that the gun isnt gona blow up in my face i guess. I know alot of people who go by the original spec from the factory, but i figure its easy to recheck, and i may catch something. Maybe the kit got worn, maybe it was wrong at the factory, i dunno, just think its something worth checking.
Pat |
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Posted: 12/12/2008 5:40:49 AM EDT
[#29]
Let's say the barrel was installed incorrectly at the factory with excessive headspace. Or the barrel is used and headspaced for a different trunion and bolt setup.
On re-install it's correctly pressed in with good headspace, then re-drilled and pinned, there is a going to be a long hogged out area on the barrel which could allow it to drift back to the old headspaced position as the gun is fired. I think you would have to add metal to the channel on the barrel before drilling to prevent relapse to the old headspace position. Or the hole has to be drilled big enough to encompass the hogged out area and a larger pin installed. Your photo supports this hypothesis: see the empty area infront of where the pin channel is? That's where the new channel was drilled, and it has relapsed into the old position. The whole purpose of the pin is defeated if the channel is not solid on either side of the pin prior to being drilled. This process of drifting would take place over time, each shot being a hammer blow on the breech side of the barrel, forcing it forward in the trunion till the barrel channel on the back side is stopped by the pin. If you were to look at your spent cartridges over time they would be longer and longer till the KB. There still may be more room for the barrel to move. (edited to add photo/spelling)
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Posted: 12/12/2008 9:24:31 AM EDT
[#30]
Quoted:
Let's say the barrel was installed incorrectly at the factory with excessive headspace. Or the barrel is used and headspaced for a different trunion and bolt setup. On re-install it's correctly pressed in with good headspace, then re-drilled and pinned, there is a going to be a long hogged out area on the barrel which could allow it to drift back to the old headspaced position as the gun is fired. I think you would have to add metal to the channel on the barrel before drilling to prevent relapse to the old headspace position. Or the hole has to be drilled big enough to encompass the hogged out area and a larger pin installed. Your photo supports this hypothesis: see the empty area infront of where the pin channel is? That's where the new channel was drilled, and it has relapsed into the old position. The whole purpose of the pin is defeated if the channel is not solid on either side of the pin prior to being drilled. This process of drifting would take place over time, each shot being a hammer blow on the breech side of the barrel, forcing it forward in the trunion till the barrel channel on the back side is stopped by the pin. If you were to look at your spent cartridges over time they would be longer and longer till the KB. There still may be more room for the barrel to move. (edited to add photo/spelling) http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3144/2969415724_4559766453_b.jpg Interesting theory. |
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Posted: 12/12/2008 9:38:37 AM EDT
[#31]
Quoted: And plausible from what we now know, No?Quoted: Let's say the barrel was installed incorrectly at the factory with excessive headspace. Or the barrel is used and headspaced for a different trunion and bolt setup. On re-install it's correctly pressed in with good headspace, then re-drilled and pinned, there is a going to be a long hogged out area on the barrel which could allow it to drift back to the old headspaced position as the gun is fired. I think you would have to add metal to the channel on the barrel before drilling to prevent relapse to the old headspace position. Or the hole has to be drilled big enough to encompass the hogged out area and a larger pin installed. Your photo supports this hypothesis: see the empty area infront of where the pin channel is? That's where the new channel was drilled, and it has relapsed into the old position. The whole purpose of the pin is defeated if the channel is not solid on either side of the pin prior to being drilled. This process of drifting would take place over time, each shot being a hammer blow on the breech side of the barrel, forcing it forward in the trunion till the barrel channel on the back side is stopped by the pin. If you were to look at your spent cartridges over time they would be longer and longer till the KB. There still may be more room for the barrel to move. (edited to add photo/spelling) http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3144/2969415724_4559766453_b.jpg Interesting theory. |
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Posted: 12/12/2008 7:29:57 PM EDT
[#32]
You know it doesn't look that bad. Like you might be able to easily repair it. Good luck and I hope you get her up and running again.
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Posted: 12/13/2008 2:14:43 AM EDT
[#33]
Quoted:
You know it doesn't look that bad. Like you might be able to easily repair it. Did you even read the thread?
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Posted: 12/14/2008 8:19:44 AM EDT
[#34]
Quoted: Let's say the barrel was installed incorrectly at the factory with excessive headspace. Or the barrel is used and headspaced for a different trunion and bolt setup. On re-install it's correctly pressed in with good headspace, then re-drilled and pinned, there is a going to be a long hogged out area on the barrel which could allow it to drift back to the old headspaced position as the gun is fired. I think you would have to add metal to the channel on the barrel before drilling to prevent relapse to the old headspace position. Or the hole has to be drilled big enough to encompass the hogged out area and a larger pin installed. Your photo supports this hypothesis: see the empty area infront of where the pin channel is? That's where the new channel was drilled, and it has relapsed into the old position. The whole purpose of the pin is defeated if the channel is not solid on either side of the pin prior to being drilled. This process of drifting would take place over time, each shot being a hammer blow on the breech side of the barrel, forcing it forward in the trunion till the barrel channel on the back side is stopped by the pin. If you were to look at your spent cartridges over time they would be longer and longer till the KB. There still may be more room for the barrel to move. (edited to add photo/spelling) http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3144/2969415724_4559766453_b.jpg A lot of those Yugo Krink kits came in as virgin kits...don't know if this is what the thread author bought, but if it was, then that theory wouldn't be applicable. Otherwise, very plausible explanation IMO... |
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Posted: 12/14/2008 10:14:17 AM EDT
[#35]
Originally Posted By ––bullseye––:
Quoted:
Let's say the barrel was installed incorrectly at the factory with excessive headspace. Or the barrel is used and headspaced for a different trunion and bolt setup. On re-install it's correctly pressed in with good headspace, then re-drilled and pinned, there is a going to be a long hogged out area on the barrel which could allow it to drift back to the old headspaced position as the gun is fired. I think you would have to add metal to the channel on the barrel before drilling to prevent relapse to the old headspace position. Or the hole has to be drilled big enough to encompass the hogged out area and a larger pin installed. Your photo supports this hypothesis: see the empty area infront of where the pin channel is? That's where the new channel was drilled, and it has relapsed into the old position. The whole purpose of the pin is defeated if the channel is not solid on either side of the pin prior to being drilled. This process of drifting would take place over time, each shot being a hammer blow on the breech side of the barrel, forcing it forward in the trunion till the barrel channel on the back side is stopped by the pin. If you were to look at your spent cartridges over time they would be longer and longer till the KB. There still may be more room for the barrel to move. (edited to add photo/spelling) http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3144/2969415724_4559766453_b.jpg A lot of those Yugo Krink kits came in as virgin kits...don't know if this is what the thread author bought, but if it was, then that theory wouldn't be applicable. Otherwise, very plausible explanation IMO... I seem to recall mine was built on a de-milled kit. New, but de-milled. |
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Posted: 12/14/2008 2:57:05 PM EDT
[#36]
I will say that one of my bulgy kits came out of head space from the factory. I pushed it in a bit till it was good and redrilled it. I have worried about it going back out of space as you said from each round pushing it slightly. I dont shoot the gun much but i am careful to check it every so often. Im also looking at getting a replacement barrel from kvar, might be money well spent.
Pat |
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Posted: 12/14/2008 3:08:55 PM EDT
[#37]
Quoted:
I will say that one of my bulgy kits came out of head space from the factory. I pushed it in a bit till it was good and redrilled it. I have worried about it going back out of space as you said from each round pushing it slightly. I dont shoot the gun much but i am careful to check it every so often. Im also looking at getting a replacement barrel from kvar, might be money well spent. Pat The correct procdure is to set the headspace and overdrill the hole to the next size larger and use an oversized pin. |
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Posted: 12/16/2008 8:48:53 AM EDT
[#38]
Thanks Heavy
I may have to go out and get a bigger pin and do that. Pat |
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Posted: 2/3/2009 7:49:33 PM EDT
[#39]
Quoted:
"he found the gun to have excessive headspace, due to the fact that during the build, the barrel was not installed correctly" And that's why I have headspace gauges for the rifles. BSW Whenever I get or build an AK, I pull the top cover and wiggle the tail of the bolt while it's in battery. It's an easy way of determining headspace. One of my low grade Polish kits is a few thousandths looser than the rest so I guess it will blow one day. |
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Posted: 3/25/2009 4:23:00 PM EDT
[#40]
Quoted:
Strange bang, lots of gas, Reminds me of a chick I met while on TDY in Thailand.
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Posted: 3/26/2009 3:21:19 AM EDT
[#41]
Quoted: Quoted: Strange bang, lots of gas, Reminds me of a chick I met while on TDY in Thailand.  |
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Posted: 3/26/2009 3:25:44 AM EDT
[#42]
Any further word?
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Posted: 3/26/2009 4:31:21 AM EDT
[#43]
Quoted:
Agreed. Builder claims headspace gauges were used, and checked fine. I suspect headspace issue as well. Who built the rifle? |
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Posted: 3/26/2009 4:57:50 AM EDT
[#44]
Quoted: Any further word? Yes: (From CS223) The receiver straightened up fine. I've got to fixture up the trunnion & barrel and get the OS retaining pin squared away then rivet the trunnion back in & press the barrel in. I have found a brand new top cover as well. Quoted: Quoted: Agreed. Builder claims headspace gauges were used, and checked fine. I suspect headspace issue as well. Who built the rifle? No one you'd know, local builder. |
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Posted: 3/26/2009 6:08:29 AM EDT
[#45]
Quoted:
Quoted:
"he found the gun to have excessive headspace, due to the fact that during the build, the barrel was not installed correctly" And that's why I have headspace gauges for the rifles. BSW Whenever I get or build an AK, I pull the top cover and wiggle the tail of the bolt while it's in battery. It's an easy way of determining headspace. One of my low grade Polish kits is a few thousandths looser than the rest so I guess it will blow one day. Remind me to never shoot or buy one of your rifles. You use the word 'headspace' but I have to believe that you do not know what it means. BSW |
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Posted: 4/9/2009 10:36:41 PM EDT
[#46]
Quoted:
One of my low grade Polish kits is a few thousandths looser than the rest so I guess it will blow one day. I have a Premium Polish kit that is way loose. If that isn't bad enough, the front sight post is canted. Stupid Polish 
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Posted: 5/5/2009 3:57:22 AM EDT
[#47]
Well, I got 'er back last week.
Checked bolt lockup, and took 'er to the range Sunday. And I have to say, she ran good. Stayed in one piece. CS223 truly did a great job on the surgery, the gun came back to me, refinished and clean. If you don't know, you wouldn't be able to tell by looking at it, what she went through. |
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Posted: 5/5/2009 4:02:03 AM EDT
[#48]
Quoted: CS223 truly did a great job on the surgery, the gun came back to me, refinished and clean. If you don't know, you wouldn't be able to tell by looking at it, what she went through. That's a fact. |
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Posted: 5/5/2009 11:55:59 AM EDT
[#49]
To CS223
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Posted: 5/5/2009 2:55:10 PM EDT
[#50]
Good news!
Enjoy your SBR! 
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