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Excellent thread!! Can anyone explain the odd stepped edge on some recent production bayo's? |
Job 7:1 "Militia est vita hominis super terram"... John 6:35; And Jesus said to them, I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.
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Originally Posted By EVR: Excellent thread!! Can anyone explain the odd stepped edge on some recent production bayo's? I have never been able to find a definitive answer for that feature. Joe Poyer, in his book The AK-47 and AK-74 Kalashnikov Rifles and Their Variations, speculates they might be blood grooves and that they were easier to machine than a fuller. Until I had read that, I had always thought they were added to lend lateral structural rigidity to the blade, in much the same way ridges are added to flat metal to prevent bending under stress, and that they were easy to machine by just flipping the blade on the mill. Soldiers tend to use bayonets for all sorts of things, including prying and I figured the Russians were addressing that. |
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Originally Posted By CarlosC: I have never been able to find a definitive answer for that feature. Joe Poyer, in his book The AK-47 and AK-74 Kalashnikov Rifles and Their Variations, speculates they might be blood grooves and that they were easier to machine than a fuller. Until I had read that, I had always thought they were added to lend lateral structural rigidity to the blade, in much the same way ridges are added to flat metal to prevent bending under stress, and that they were easy to machine by just flipping the blade on the mill. Soldiers tend to use bayonets for all sorts of things, including prying and I figured the Russians were addressing that. Originally Posted By CarlosC: Originally Posted By EVR: Excellent thread!! Can anyone explain the odd stepped edge on some recent production bayo's? I have never been able to find a definitive answer for that feature. Joe Poyer, in his book The AK-47 and AK-74 Kalashnikov Rifles and Their Variations, speculates they might be blood grooves and that they were easier to machine than a fuller. Until I had read that, I had always thought they were added to lend lateral structural rigidity to the blade, in much the same way ridges are added to flat metal to prevent bending under stress, and that they were easy to machine by just flipping the blade on the mill. Soldiers tend to use bayonets for all sorts of things, including prying and I figured the Russians were addressing that. I handforge knives, bolos, parangs, billhooks and other hand tools so stuff like this is always of interest. I have for many years used (left and right handed) chisel grinds for many of my bolos and parangs I do not agree with Poyer. The whole "blood groove" business is IMO nonsense. I think you are closer to the mark or maybe right on it. I've wondered if it was actually to discourage the bayonet being used as a knife for general cutting purposes as it certainly tends to do so. The British in designing the No 4 Lee-Enfield spike bayonet specifically chose to make a bayonet that could not be used as a general tool for camp chores. That is cited in some material I read years ago. I do not recall the specific reasoning tho. Maybe frequent breakage of their No 1 bayonets when abused for chores they were simply not up to performing? (Interestingly, later, they went whole hog on a general utility knife for their L85 as did we with our M16 bayonets. Learned a lesson?) The chisel grind itself could very well be design feature for simplification of production. They are also easier to sharpen as they need only be sharpened on one side and then just laid flat on the whetstone, file or rock to clear the feather edge on the other side. But that weird step in the end is quite unique and truly a mystery. Anyway, fantastic thread here. Thanks very much for putting it together!! |
Job 7:1 "Militia est vita hominis super terram"... John 6:35; And Jesus said to them, I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.
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You're quite welcome. The Brit bayonet history is definitely interesting, since you bring that up; I see them as being all over the place. Just late in WW1, they were into the dying concept of sword/bayonets (Pattern 1907) - the fad at that time in most (but not all) countries (unfortunately, even us). Then comes WW2 and they have the spike, as you mentioned, and old-school spike bayonets, and even a combo spike/blade in their No. 9 bayonets. However, they also introduced a progressive bayonet/knife in the No. 5. Then they go backwards with the No. 7 bayonet with it's weird swiveling pommel (to be a socket bayonet) or swivel into a straight bayonet/knife. The No. 8 was a return to the No. 5 design and copied for the Sterling sub gun bayonet (an interesting concept unto itself). It seemed like the Brits then settled with the classic knife style in the L1A3 and A4 before they not only went outside the box, but really outside the building housing the box, with the L3A1 design. It seems like they tried to throw everything possible into it...fullered blade - but offset to one side, a socket design so it would fit over the barrel (and ports for the flash hider like the FAL bayonets), odd ergo grip (IMO), and that multi-tool scabbard. And you'll notice they copied the scabbard stud and blade hole for wire cutting the Russians had been using since the AKM Type 1, although we finally did too in the M9. I only have a 1915 Wilkinson (Pattern 1907) Brit bayonet and a No4 Mk2, but I'd like to add some more Brit blades to my collection for some variety - just to try to understand the development mindset. I have around 15 US bayonets from WW1/WW2 and a few modern US bayonets. You can see the US advancement from the M1905s to the M1 - M5- M7, and ultimately the do-all M9... 
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Another excellent collection!! You are right on the money on British (what to call it?) doctrinal chaos vis a vis bayonets. I have many books on this subject and a few nations {notably US and UK} are just all over the map about what a bayonet is supposed to be. Personally I always liked the US bolo bayonets a few of which got issued in the Philippines. At least somebody had the idea the thing might serve some sort of practical purpose cutting firewood and clearing brush!!  The Finn's w/ their, as you aptly call it, "steaknife", "Puukko"-style bayo probably found the simplest and frankly, best approach. A decent field knife that will serve for practical chores which let's face it, is the most likely use that 99% of bayonets can ever hope to see. |
Job 7:1 "Militia est vita hominis super terram"... John 6:35; And Jesus said to them, I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.
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Great presentation on the radical, ever-influential Kalashnikov bayonet. Found this thread externally through a search engine. Maybe you can answer some questions. 1. What is the general blade material/composition/type of steel? -- sources differ as to whether the Type I, II AKM bayonets are carbon steel left "in the white", stainless steel, chrome plated carbon steel or plated with another material? 2. Can you rate them highest to lowest quality (in your opinion)? I would vote the East German at or near the top. 3. Out of all the AK/AK clone bayonets in your possession, how many of them have been sharpened to a knife edge? Many say, erroneously, that all bayonets ever devised were meant to be dull and only marginally sharp at the tip for thrust penetration. But with the introduction of the AK Type I, II knife bayonets it ostensibly means they intended it to be a combat, utility, jack of all trades knife bayonet. I'm not saying they pioneered the knife-tool-bayonet concept however, they just popularized it. All of the wire cutting AK bayonets seem to have a real attempt at a factory bevel and comes with either a factory created sharp edge or is left to the end user to grind and hone. Can they take an edge like a normal knife? Again, folks around the interwebz say they do not and do not make a halfway decent camping or survival knife. Only good for poking, they say. I only have one petty concern. With the fine documentation presented here I was sad to see cosmoline and grime on those blades.  |
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Originally Posted By Oppressor: Great presentation on the radical, ever-influential Kalashnikov bayonet. Found this thread externally through a search engine. Maybe you can answer some questions. 1. What is the general blade material/composition/type of steel? -- sources differ as to whether the Type I, II AKM bayonets are carbon steel left "in the white", stainless steel, chrome plated carbon steel or plated with another material? 2. Can you rate them highest to lowest quality (in your opinion)? I would vote the East German at or near the top. 3. Out of all the AK/AK clone bayonets in your possession, how many of them have been sharpened to a knife edge? Many say, erroneously, that all bayonets ever devised were meant to be dull and only marginally sharp at the tip for thrust penetration. But with the introduction of the AK Type I, II knife bayonets it ostensibly means they intended it to be a combat, utility, jack of all trades knife bayonet. I'm not saying they pioneered the knife/tool bayonet however. All of the wire cutting AK bayonets seem to have a real attempt at a factory bevel and comes with either a factory created sharp edge or is left to the end user to grind and hone. Can they take an edge like a normal knife? Again, folks around the interwebz say they do not and do not make a halfway decent camping or survival knife. Only good for poking, they say. I only have one petty concern. With the fine documentation presented here I was sad to see cosmoline and grime on those blades. Glad your search led you here. 
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Shooting and Reloading, one hobby feeds the other.
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Originally Posted By dryflash3: Yes this is a high quality thread, and why I have the Archive toggle set. (keeping it out of the archives) Glad your search led you here. YES, you are doing good work here and I am well informed that you have "toggled" the thread for the benefit of all. Fine work, sir. |
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Originally Posted By Oppressor: YES, you are doing good work here and I am well informed that you have "toggled" the thread for the benefit of all. Fine work, sir. As a mod, I see an icon next to a thread title on the main page of the forum. Team members and members don't see this icon, so no way for you to know unless you happen on my post in the thread where I state I toggled this thread. That's a nit pick I bring out to Goatboy every so often. |
Selling agent for Algores carbon credit scam.
Shooting and Reloading, one hobby feeds the other.
Shooting and Reloading, one hobby feeds the other.
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Originally Posted By Oppressor: Great presentation on the radical, ever-influential Kalashnikov bayonet. Found this thread externally through a search engine. Maybe you can answer some questions. 1. What is the general blade material/composition/type of steel? -- sources differ as to whether the Type I, II AKM bayonets are carbon steel left "in the white", stainless steel, chrome plated carbon steel or plated with another material? AK47: H-84019 carbon steel. AKM Type 1 & Type 2: H-85023 tool steel. Not sure about the 6X5 or the odd samples. All the bayonets are left in the white except for the 6X5s, which are hard chrome plated. 2. Can you rate them highest to lowest quality (in your opinion)? I would vote the East German at or near the top. Hard to say because the Europeans (including the Russians) are all pretty much the same good quality, except the later Romania Type 1s, which feature crap handle material. The Chinese bayonets are pretty nice as well. The only ones that stand out as low quality are the Egyptian Type 1s with glue oozing all around the bayonets. Even that is not a given though as I have Egyptian AKM bayonets that are as nice as anything made in Europe. 3. Out of all the AK/AK clone bayonets in your possession, how many of them have been sharpened to a knife edge? None that I can tell Many say, erroneously, that all bayonets ever devised were meant to be dull and only marginally sharp at the tip for thrust penetration. But with the introduction of the AK Type I, II knife bayonets it ostensibly means they intended it to be a combat, utility, jack of all trades knife bayonet. I'm not saying they pioneered the knife-tool-bayonet concept however, they just popularized it. All of the wire cutting AK bayonets seem to have a real attempt at a factory bevel and comes with either a factory created sharp edge or is left to the end user to grind and hone. Can they take an edge like a normal knife? Again, folks around the interwebz say they do not and do not make a halfway decent camping or survival knife. Only good for poking, they say. I only have one petty concern. With the fine documentation presented here I was sad to see cosmoline and grime on those blades. My responses are in italics. Any cosmoline you see is because I have tried to leave the bayonets as untouched as possible. Any grime/grease is from actual use/storage long before I bought them. I clean them a little to prevent decay, but I don't make them shiny presentation pieces by any means. Oh, I have recently moved so my house is in chaos, but once it is sorted out, I'll update the original post since I've added a few more samples: one CZ Type 2, another Egyptian Type 2, a Lithuanian camo frog (still looking for another Lituanian bayonet to go with it), one more Romanian rare thin grip, and an updated hanger for my current Romy thin grip. |
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And to EVR...I have added the final missing Tri-Tech M9 bayonet to the collection, so I have one from each manufacturer: Phrobis, Tri-Technologies, OKC (M9 and OKC-35), and LanCay, plus a Pedro Medrano (Lugang, Taiwan. Made by Qantas Products of Taipei) and a Schrade (bad ass knife). To anyone else interested, I also have the following M1903/M1 bayonets: M1905 Springfield Armory (1915) and RIA (1908) with 16" blades. An Oneida Limited 1942 16" blade (1 of 150k) and a Mk1 training bayonet, also with a 16" blade. A RIA (1906 - first year made with no serial number!) shortened to 10" Bowie. UFH, UC, PAL, AFH, all 10" uncut originals. Two more UCs with 16" blades cut down to 10", one a spear point, one a Bowie point. Foreign M1 bayonets include: Italy, Greece, Norway, Denmark, Japan, and Holland. I like HK G3 bayonets as well and have: Danish 7-groove Type 3, Iranian 12-groove, Norwegian Model 1968, Pakistani made in 1969 (serial number 567), Swedish Model 1965 6-groove by Bahco, Swedish 7-groove made by Eichorn, Turkish made by MKE, West German 2nd version 12-groove full-notch cross piece, West German 2nd version 13-groove (only sample I've ever seen) half-notch cross piece, West German 3rd version 7-groove half-notch made by A. Eichorn prior to the German reunification. Others bayonets: CETME, South African FAL and UZI, Kar 98k cof43 (matching scabbard), E. Pack & Sohn dress bayonet (373mm long version), Lee-Enfield N04 Mk II, Lee-Enfield 1907 1915 Wilkinson, two M-N 91-30 bayos, Yugo M1948 bayo. Glock field knives (no saw teeth) 12161 black, 17278 olive drab, 17578 sand. Glock survival knives (with saw teeth) 17281 black, 17181 sand, 17378 olive drab, 39179 flat dark earth, 39180 grey, and 39180 battlefield green. Bundeswehr M1220. A few other knives and bayonets. |
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Any further stickers you've got I'm sure folks like me will be happy to see them! Thanks for a great thread. |
Job 7:1 "Militia est vita hominis super terram"... John 6:35; And Jesus said to them, I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.
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I would love to see those other bayonets you have, albeit in their respective forums perhaps, since they are not Kalashnikov bayonets. Is there a specific 'general bayonets' subforum? I'm still a newb and ar15 is vast. Your presentation standards and quality photography are second to none, at least here on the site. |
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FYI, I have acquired five new AK bayonets since my last update about a year ago and added new pics to my original post. These new additions include: a Czech Type 2, more typical Egyptian brown handle AKM Type 2, Lithuanian woodland camo theme AKM Type 2, Bulgarian-made but Polish issued 6x2, and another rare Romanian thin grip AKM Type 1. If there are any pics any of you want that perhaps better illustrate differences among several similar items or provide more detail, let me know. ETA 7/1/24: I may soon be posting three new bayonets, depending on whether my source in Russia can deliver. They'll be another super-rare Russian AKM Type 2 reduced pommel and a Russian AKM Type 1 square back. ETA 11/29/24: Russian source not able to deliver. 
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Originally Posted By CarlosC: Greetings, I have added a Russian 6X9-1 to my collection and have updated page one of the original post (1st post and the one with the Russian 6X5). 
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Shooting and Reloading, one hobby feeds the other.
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Cool thread I have a small collection myself. Where did you get the Ratnik bayonet? I recently bought one on eBay from China knowing it may be fake but I felt it was worth the chance given the cheap price. I was hoping as they sell the nonserialized commercial model in Russia for very cheap, that maybe the Chinese seller just imported them for resale instead of going through the trouble of cloning them. It looks perfect but would not fit the lugs, too tight. |
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Originally Posted By Citadel-SC: Cool thread I have a small collection myself. Where did you get the Ratnik bayonet? I recently bought one on eBay from China knowing it may be fake but I felt it was worth the chance given the cheap price. I was hoping as they sell the nonserialized commercial model in Russia for very cheap, that maybe the Chinese seller just imported them for resale instead of going through the trouble of cloning them. It looks perfect but would not fit the lugs, too tight. It's been a while since I visited this post so I just saw your question...I'm not 100% sure, but I believe I got this from my Russian source, Kirill. I've tried to contact him to verify and to see if he has any new goodies, but he has not responded in a very long time.  Unfortunately, information about this new bayonet is very difficult to find, however, I do believe mine is a commercial model since it doesn't have a serial number, or perhaps it is unissued (less likely). Mine does fit the lug on my Russian AK-74 though - it's tight, but it fits and locks in place. I wore all the paint off the bayonet rails to get it to slide on because it didn't initially, so that may be the issue with yours? |
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