User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
GA, USA
|
Posted: 6/14/2024 11:08:49 PM EDT
I did a search and found nothing, so I'll take a chance at getting flamed.
I've owned several AKs including the one that I currently have, a Bulgarian 107CR. I've never built one, but I know how it's done. I recently was looking on line about PSAs considering buying one, and read about the bolt issue, that being the firing pin hole being out of spec and how PSA addressed this. However, I recently saw several videos by a guy who seems to know what he's talking about claiming PSA does not properly rivet the guns. Specifically, not using swell neck rivets on the front trunnion. Anyone have any info on this before I spend the money? Thanks |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/15/2024 8:24:41 AM EDT
[#1]
Likely not an issue. How many guns has PSA produced and have had issues from not using swell rivets? None that I know of. I know lots of garage AK builders didn't use them either.
I use swell rivets on my builds, just on the 2 rivets closest to the mag well. I wouldn't worry about it much if standard rivets were used instead. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/15/2024 11:13:37 PM EDT
[#2]
Originally Posted By roninsan: I did a search and found nothing, so I'll take a chance at getting flamed. I've owned several AKs including the one that I currently have, a Bulgarian 107CR. I've never built one, but I know how it's done. I recently was looking on line about PSAs considering buying one, and read about the bolt issue, that being the firing pin hole being out of spec and how PSA addressed this. However, I recently saw several videos by a guy who seems to know what he's talking about claiming PSA does not properly rivet the guns. Specifically, not using swell neck rivets on the front trunnion. Anyone have any info on this before I spend the money? Thanks No flaming here. 
|
|
|
|
GA, USA
|
Posted: 6/16/2024 11:48:26 AM EDT
[#3]
Thanks, I rarely ask questions on ARFCOM because you get flamed so easily for not being an expert on the topic.
I don't know if the videos I was watching are by a guy who knows what he's talking about, but he implied having first hand experience, like he disassembled one to see for himself. Insists they're not going to hold up because the receivers aren't dimpled and no swell necks used. I'd like to go with a US made product, and while I don't shoot thousands of rounds per year, I don't want the thing to come unglued either. I guess that's the chance you take... |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/16/2024 11:52:36 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By roninsan: Thanks, I rarely ask questions on ARFCOM because you get flamed so easily for not being an expert on the topic. I don't know if the videos I was watching are by a guy who knows what he's talking about, but he implied having first hand experience, like he disassembled one to see for himself. Insists they're not going to hold up because the receivers aren't dimpled and no swell necks used. I'd like to go with a US made product, and while I don't shoot thousands of rounds per year, I don't want the thing to come unglued either. I guess that's the chance you take... What guys videos are you watching? |
|
|
|
SC, USA
|
Posted: 6/16/2024 11:57:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Jman_JJE]
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By roninsan: Thanks, I rarely ask questions on ARFCOM because you get flamed so easily for not being an expert on the topic. I don't know if the videos I was watching are by a guy who knows what he's talking about, but he implied having first hand experience, like he disassembled one to see for himself. Insists they're not going to hold up because the receivers aren't dimpled and no swell necks used. I'd like to go with a US made product, and while I don't shoot thousands of rounds per year, I don't want the thing to come unglued either. I guess that's the chance you take... Go watch the JMAC meltdown videos. All full auto sustained fire. These things are built tough. PSA has made hundreds of thousands of them and they are not having this issue. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/16/2024 2:08:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: mancat]
[#6]
I dont know if BFLV is running any PSA guns but that would be the real test.
The swell neck rivets and step of dimpling the receiver into the counter sunk drilled holes in the trunnions is intended to reduce front/back shear forces against the rivets by essentially clamping the receiver into several spots on the trunnion, versus rivets simply holding everything together on their own. Possibly more of an issue if you're doing things like using a GP launcher which most AK owners obviously are probably not doing On Bulgarian 74s at least, the swell neck rivets also have a larger shank diameter so they are heavier duty rivets as well. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/16/2024 2:21:05 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mancat: I dont know if BFLV is running any PSA guns but that would be the real test. The swell neck rivets and step of dimpling the receiver into the counter sunk drilled holes in the trunnions is intended to reduce front/back shear forces against the rivets by essentially clamping the receiver into several spots on the trunnion, versus rivets simply holding everything together on their own. That's my understanding as well, i've read a fair bit about it and why they started doing it and it does make sense. Smart engineering that some people don't seem to get is important, stuff like that is what got us the screw-build fiasco. If you stop and take a minute to consider the forces applied and how this might help it's a no brainer. But it does take another step or two in the manufacturing process. If the PSA rifles are holding up, great, but it does seem like another in a long list of US AK manufacturers cutting a corner yet again if true. For some reason I assumed PSA knew this and was already making them like that. Agreed that BFLV would be a much better long-term test than a "meltdown" video. I'm not gonna beat anybody up over it, I appreciate what PSA is doing and they've steadily learned along the way and made improvements. I'm just going to urge them in the strongest possible terms, to consider making a change if they're not using swell-necks and dimples. |
|
|
|
GA, USA
|
Posted: 6/16/2024 4:43:16 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Manticore_Arms: What guys videos are you watching? I'd have to scroll through Youtube to find it again, but he's very insistent the PSA rifles are not going to hold up. Says it may take 5, 10K rounds but they will come unglued. I suppose if I shot that much I should be worried, but there's also the fact that they can be drilled and re-riveted correctly, I suppose. I just hate spending money on something only to discover later it's not what you were led to believe. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/16/2024 5:35:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: mancat]
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By roninsan: I'd have to scroll through Youtube to find it again, but he's very insistent the PSA rifles are not going to hold up. Says it may take 5, 10K rounds but they will come unglued. I suppose if I shot that much I should be worried, but there's also the fact that they can be drilled and re-riveted correctly, I suppose. I just hate spending money on something only to discover later it's not what you were led to believe. If you look at the Toolcraft trunnions that PSA is selling on their site you can see that none of the rivet holes are counter sunk for this step of the process No counter sunk rivet holes - there is a very mild chamfer to the holes but not enough to accept a swell neck or dimpling of receiver holes. Of course this is also a virgin trunnion so I don't know if PSA is counter sinking the holes during the assembly process.  Versus Bulgarian 74 front trunnion which is set up to have two swell neck rivets per side. 
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/16/2024 5:53:18 PM EDT
[#10]
Purists love to complain om how PSA does it while ignoring what PSA is doing for the AK market. I recently got one of the PSA Soviet Arms/WPB builds and it is amazing.
WBP front trunion, sights, safety, bolt and carrie ALG Trigger FN CHF barrel Soviet Arms receiver and furniture.  
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/17/2024 6:52:50 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By d16man: Purists love to complain om how PSA does it while ignoring what PSA is doing for the AK market. I recently got one of the PSA Soviet Arms/WPB builds and it is amazing. WBP front trunion, sights, safety, bolt and carrie ALG Trigger FN CHF barrel Soviet Arms receiver and furniture. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/337946/1000003427-3186847.jpg https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/337946/1000003500-3192412.jpg For the glory of the empire!  How the heck do you fire that thing and not dot yourself in the eyeball with that optic? 
|
|
|
|
GA, USA
|
Posted: 6/18/2024 9:40:52 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Manticore_Arms: What guys videos are you watching? I finally found him again, M26 Lemon Grenade is his Youtube name. I'm not calling him or PSA out on this, I'm just trying to educate myself and make an informed decision. He actually tears down a Gen 1 PSA and shows how they're not using swell neck rivets. Some say it's no big deal, he points out what he thinks it is a big deal. He does rebuild this rifle with swell necks, and he points out that this rifle had gone back to PSA for a Gen 3 upgrade and after replacing the out of spec bolt, he states the rifle is probably the best on the market, AFTER the rivet and bolt replacement. So I imagine if one had the tools and talent one could do the same to their rifle and end up with a better rifle. Seems odd to me PSA isn't doing this already. I can't possibly be that much more expensive to do it right the first time, but I get cutting corners to save money. Cut them somewhere else perhaps? Anyway, take all that for what you think it's worth. |
|
|
UT, USA
|
Posted: 6/18/2024 1:00:35 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By d16man: Purists love to complain om how PSA does it while ignoring what PSA is doing for the AK market. I recently got one of the PSA Soviet Arms/WPB builds and it is amazing. WBP front trunion, sights, safety, bolt and carrie ALG Trigger FN CHF barrel Soviet Arms receiver and furniture. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/337946/1000003427-3186847.jpg https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/337946/1000003500-3192412.jpg Nobody is ignoring what they are doing to the AK market... They are STILL making US built AK's look bad. They need to do better get the basics right and stop cutting corners. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/18/2024 3:05:44 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By roninsan: I finally found him again, M26 Lemon Grenade is his Youtube name. I'm not calling him or PSA out on this, I'm just trying to educate myself and make an informed decision. He actually tears down a Gen 1 PSA and shows how they're not using swell neck rivets. Okay, Gen 1, but that was quite a while back now, does anybody know for certain that PSA is still not using swell-necks on later Gens? |
|
|
|
IN, USA
|
Posted: 6/18/2024 3:52:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Evintos]
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By roninsan: I finally found him again, M26 Lemon Grenade is his Youtube name. I'm not calling him or PSA out on this, I'm just trying to educate myself and make an informed decision. He actually tears down a Gen 1 PSA and shows how they're not using swell neck rivets. Some say it's no big deal, he points out what he thinks it is a big deal. He does rebuild this rifle with swell necks, and he points out that this rifle had gone back to PSA for a Gen 3 upgrade and after replacing the out of spec bolt, he states the rifle is probably the best on the market, AFTER the rivet and bolt replacement. So I imagine if one had the tools and talent one could do the same to their rifle and end up with a better rifle. Seems odd to me PSA isn't doing this already. I can't possibly be that much more expensive to do it right the first time, but I get cutting corners to save money. Cut them somewhere else perhaps? Anyway, take all that for what you think it's worth. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By roninsan: I finally found him again, M26 Lemon Grenade is his Youtube name. I'm not calling him or PSA out on this, I'm just trying to educate myself and make an informed decision. He actually tears down a Gen 1 PSA and shows how they're not using swell neck rivets. Some say it's no big deal, he points out what he thinks it is a big deal. He does rebuild this rifle with swell necks, and he points out that this rifle had gone back to PSA for a Gen 3 upgrade and after replacing the out of spec bolt, he states the rifle is probably the best on the market, AFTER the rivet and bolt replacement. So I imagine if one had the tools and talent one could do the same to their rifle and end up with a better rifle. Seems odd to me PSA isn't doing this already. I can't possibly be that much more expensive to do it right the first time, but I get cutting corners to save money. Cut them somewhere else perhaps? Anyway, take all that for what you think it's worth. Originally Posted By Dragynn: Okay, Gen 1, but that was quite a while back now, does anybody know for certain that PSA is still not using swell-necks on later Gens? Wasn't but supposedly made an announcement at NRAAM '24 that they're going to start dimpling the receiver and using swell necks. When that transition happens, no clue since there's no wide spread official announcement that I'm aware of. Link the m26_Lemon_Grenade's vid  Failed To Load Title |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/18/2024 5:51:21 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Evintos: Wasn't but supposedly made an announcement at NRAAM '24 that they're going to start dimpling the receiver and using swell necks. When that transition happens, no clue since there's no wide spread official announcement that I'm aware of. Nice, that's good news, so again bit by bit they are figuring it out and making necessary changes. One day soon they are gonna nail it all the way, that's when i'll be ordering, assuming they're not psycho-expensive.  I do love FN CHF barrels, it'll be fun to have one in an AK shooting a proper caliber instead of my pea-shooter AR's.  |
|
|
|
GA, USA
|
Posted: 6/18/2024 11:02:47 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Dragynn: Okay, Gen 1, but that was quite a while back now, does anybody know for certain that PSA is still not using swell-necks on later Gens? According to the last video I watched, where he tore down that Gen 1, before he did the gun was sent back to PSA and got a Gen 3 upgrade, but when he tore it down it still had no dimpled receiver or swell neck rivets. He said it went back in October of '23 so up to that point they still weren't doing it. It may or may not be an issue. I agree with the guy on the point of not doing puts stress on the rivets, and that stress is in sheer, so the rivet will fail. If it's dimpled, the rivet is holding in compression, and flexing with the receiver not against it. I really want a US made AK that is made better than the imports, and there's no reason why we can't do it. If I have to send the damn thing to someone and have a few rivets replaced to make it right, that's going to cost a hell of a lot more compared to the job being done right to begin with. I'm really hoping PSA starts doing it right soon, I'm leaning towards an import at this point... |
|
|
AZ, USA
|
Posted: 6/26/2024 4:17:24 PM EDT
[#18]
I wonder why they skipped this design feature. Putting a small chamfer on a couple holes is not difficult, or expensive.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/26/2024 4:58:29 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By brownbomber: I wonder why they skipped this design feature. Putting a small chamfer on a couple holes is not difficult, or expensive. For sure. I mean you gotta dimple the receiver at the hole too, but still not a big deal. I guess it's just something in the USA DNA that we have to look at something and go "awww you don't need to do all that shit, here lemme show you the easy way, after all commies are stupid there's no telling why they did that anyway". And later on, they're like oh damn now I see why.  And that's like everything on the whole rifle, bit by bit. PSA is the first one so far to almost finally do the whole rifle right, and i'm cheering 'em now as the finish line is in sight, but damn what a waste of years trying to cheap out, when there was plenty of empirical evidence to suggest you CAN'T. People think it's a simple design, it's not. |
|
|
|
AZ, USA
|
Posted: 6/26/2024 5:17:08 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Dragynn: For sure. I mean you gotta dimple the receiver at the hole too, but still not a big deal. I guess it's just something in the USA DNA that we have to look at something and go "awww you don't need to do all that shit, here lemme show you the easy way, after all commies are stupid there's no telling why they did that anyway". And later on, they're like oh damn now I see why. And that's like everything on the whole rifle, bit by bit. PSA is the first one so far to almost finally do the whole rifle right, and i'm cheering 'em now as the finish line is in sight, but damn what a waste of years trying to cheap out, when there was plenty of empirical evidence to suggest you CAN'T. People think it's a simple design, it's not. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Dragynn: Originally Posted By brownbomber: I wonder why they skipped this design feature. Putting a small chamfer on a couple holes is not difficult, or expensive. For sure. I mean you gotta dimple the receiver at the hole too, but still not a big deal. I guess it's just something in the USA DNA that we have to look at something and go "awww you don't need to do all that shit, here lemme show you the easy way, after all commies are stupid there's no telling why they did that anyway". And later on, they're like oh damn now I see why. And that's like everything on the whole rifle, bit by bit. PSA is the first one so far to almost finally do the whole rifle right, and i'm cheering 'em now as the finish line is in sight, but damn what a waste of years trying to cheap out, when there was plenty of empirical evidence to suggest you CAN'T. People think it's a simple design, it's not. No, it sure isn't a simple design. Are the locking surfaces of the bolt and trunnion helical? Because that's another design feature that reproducers like to eliminate, for obvious reasons. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/26/2024 9:23:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: mancat]
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By brownbomber: I wonder why they skipped this design feature. Putting a small chamfer on a couple holes is not difficult, or expensive. If I had to guess a few reasons 1. It's several extra steps in manufacturing that now can be skipped to get more rifles out the door faster, and realistically the majority of shooters will probably never ever shoot an AK for so long and so furiously that they will destroy the rivets if this step is skipped. The only case I remember of this really happening was with some of those early Lancaster AK74s that had gas ports drilled out to the same size as a 7.62x39 AK so that they were so overgassed they beat themselves apart 2. The receiver has to be pressed slightly into the chamfered rivet holes before the swell neck rivets are installed. This can deform the receiver a tiny amount, but enough to be visible to the naked eye. There are probably many buyers of PSA AKs who have no other AK and don't know what this is about, so they will complain about it and possibly do a QC return on the rifle. Also if you screw up the above step, the receiver is sort of boned and probably cannot be rescued, which brings you back to point #1 Really it isn't ideal but I think you'd have to do many mag dumps on full auto, tens of thousands of rounds, before you MAYBE have an issue. Or like I mentioned earlier, fire a bunch of rifle grenades... I'm sure there's someone out there with a NFA GP25/30 on a PSA AK, but... really? Would it stop me from buying a PSA AK? absolutely not |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/27/2024 8:09:30 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mancat: If I had to guess a few reasons 1. It's several extra steps in manufacturing that now can be skipped to get more rifles out the door faster, and realistically the majority of shooters will probably never ever shoot an AK for so long and so furiously that they will destroy the rivets if this step is skipped. The only case I remember of this really happening was with some of those early Lancaster AK74s that had gas ports drilled out to the same size as a 7.62x39 AK so that they were so overgassed they beat themselves apart 2. The receiver has to be pressed slightly into the chamfered rivet holes before the swell neck rivets are installed. This can deform the receiver a tiny amount, but enough to be visible to the naked eye. There are probably many buyers of PSA AKs who have no other AK and don't know what this is about, so they will complain about it and possibly do a QC return on the rifle. Also if you screw up the above step, the receiver is sort of boned and probably cannot be rescued, which brings you back to point #1 Really it isn't ideal but I think you'd have to do many mag dumps on full auto, tens of thousands of rounds, before you MAYBE have an issue. Or like I mentioned earlier, fire a bunch of rifle grenades... I'm sure there's someone out there with a NFA GP25/30 on a PSA AK, but... really? Would it stop me from buying a PSA AK? absolutely not |
|
|
|
NC, USA
|
Posted: 6/30/2024 9:53:24 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By roninsan: I really want a US made AK that is made better than the imports, and there's no reason why we can't do it. The problem is, it would still have a low resale value because the collectors do everything they can to convince everyone who will listen that US made AK are crap and worthless. That makes their imports more valuable. |
|
|
UT, USA
|
Posted: 7/1/2024 11:16:52 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By dmk0210: Look at the price of a Galil or an Arsenal. That would be on the low end pricing of what a top shelf US made AK would cost, maybe even twice that. The problem is, it would still have a low resale value because the collectors do everything they can to convince everyone who will listen that US made AK are crap and worthless. That makes their imports more valuable. Its not really about convincing anyone. Its just a proven fact that AK imports are built better than US AK's. To many corners cut on US made AK's like on my PSA Kirink along with a bunch of half assing. |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/28/2024 6:19:34 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mancat: If you look at the Toolcraft trunnions that PSA is selling on their site you can see that none of the rivet holes are counter sunk for this step of the process No counter sunk rivet holes - there is a very mild chamfer to the holes but not enough to accept a swell neck or dimpling of receiver holes. Of course this is also a virgin trunnion so I don't know if PSA is counter sinking the holes during the assembly process. https://palmettostatearmory.com/media/catalog/product/cache/7af8331bf1196ca28793bd1e8f6ecc7b/5/1/51655130350_3.jpg Versus Bulgarian 74 front trunnion which is set up to have two swell neck rivets per side. https://atlanticfirearms.com/media/cache/sylius_shop_product_original/product/74partskitfoldwood-jpg-product-3.jpg Know this is an older thread, but Euro AKM front trunnions only take a swell neck on the bottom rivet location near the mag well. The AK-74 uses more swell necks, true. So if they are not doing any swell necks, they are only skipping 1 per side on the 7.62 guns. Not sure how much difference that makes overall. All that being said, swell necks give more area to resist shear forces and are a better way of doing it. But if the trunnion is made for swell necks, and you use regular rivets, then that would be a poor way of assembling it. But if not made for swell necks, straight ones would be OK I suppose- definitely better than using straight rivets in a trunnion made for swell necks. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/28/2024 11:24:43 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By tac556: The AK-74 uses more swell necks, true. Evolution of design, based upon empirical evidence? It's 50 years on now, so perhaps the exact reason is lost to history now. And maybe they just never bothered to change on 7.62 and add more. IMO it's more important on 7.62 than 5.45, while pressure is about the same, 7.62 has way more bolt-thrust, and delivers 50% more ft-lbs of energy at the muzzle. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/30/2024 8:45:13 PM EDT
[#27]
Seems weird that the AKM and AK-74 were built using a mix of straight and swell neck rivets- like why not go all 6 as swell necks on the -74?
I probably knew more about it way back in the day when the first swell neck rivets in the US were made for a group buy, but I sure can’t recall it now. |
|
|
|
MI, USA
|
Posted: 8/1/2024 9:10:38 AM EDT
[#28]
FYI, i have asked several well know kit builders who say they dont dimple the receivers unless the customers asks for it. A lot of them dont even park and paint the rifles anymore they just hit it with cheap paint on bare metal and no baking the paint anymore. I had one builder say i could upgrade to high heat engine paint.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/1/2024 10:18:14 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 1MRBEAN: FYI, i have asked several well know kit builders who say they dont dimple the receivers unless the customers asks for it. A lot of them dont even park and paint the rifles anymore they just hit it with cheap paint on bare metal and no baking the paint anymore. I had one builder say i could upgrade to high heat engine paint. Sounds awesome, can I get it built with screws too instead of those pesky rivets? 
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/1/2024 12:26:07 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 1MRBEAN: FYI, i have asked several well know kit builders who say they dont dimple the receivers unless the customers asks for it. A lot of them dont even park and paint the rifles anymore they just hit it with cheap paint on bare metal and no baking the paint anymore. I had one builder say i could upgrade to high heat engine paint. To be honest, I don't offer nice paint on my builds either, currently. But my base build price reflects that. I'll hit it with engine enamel if you want, but the cost of that is just for the can of paint and my trip to go get it. Seems most customers so far have been fine with that as they have "go-to" people they like to send stuff to for paint. I'm actually starting to convert an old shed in the yard to a paint booth so that will be changing. I do dimple every rivet that should be, though. That shouldn't be an option. |
|
|
|
OH, USA
|
Posted: 8/14/2024 3:39:31 PM EDT
[#31]
Spitballing here.....Would removing the rivets, then drilling a larger diameter to thread in a helicoil, or better yet, a timesert, then using a grade 8 bolt(s) be a simpler, easier, and far superior setup than buldged rivets?
|
|
|
OR, USA
|
Posted: 8/14/2024 4:41:46 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By RD20: Spitballing here.....Would removing the rivets, then drilling a larger diameter to thread in a helicoil, or better yet, a timesert, then using a grade 8 bolt(s) be a simpler, easier, and far superior setup than buldged rivets? Screws rattle loose. Why helicoil? Just run a tap down it if it has enough material to put a helicoil in. |
|
|
OH, USA
|
Posted: 8/14/2024 5:00:02 PM EDT
[#33]
Excellent point re the helicoil.
Those screws won't come loose with Rockset or Red Loctite if one uses Loctite"s primer. Switching tracks, I find next to no one, besides a few, actually understands how Loctite works, or when to use their primer, if they even know the primer exists. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/14/2024 5:04:53 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By RD20: Spitballing here.....Would removing the rivets, then drilling a larger diameter to thread in a helicoil, or better yet, a timesert, then using a grade 8 bolt(s) be a simpler, easier, and far superior setup than buldged rivets? Please don't blaspheme. Please and thank you. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/14/2024 5:42:56 PM EDT
[#35]
Back in the day of cheap kits and builds someone on Gunco.net built an amd-65 and used toothpicks inserted into the rivet holes. It held and functioned perfectly without breaking the toothpicks.
Swell neck rivets are not necessary and never have been. I’ve built well over a dozen aks and never used a swell neck rivet. Prove me wrong. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/14/2024 6:21:15 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By RD20: Excellent point re the helicoil. Those screws won't come loose with Rockset or Red Loctite if one uses Loctite"s primer. Switching tracks, I find next to no one, besides a few, actually understands how Loctite works, or when to use their primer, if they even know the primer exists. Back in the day the guys doing screw builds on populated trunnions would sometimes crack the heads off of the screws after some number of rounds down the pipe The lore is that the leaded alloy rivets do have some amount of flex to them as the gun fires. Don't know how true that is. It is definitely the case that a machine screw is going to be harder than a rivet, and hard material is more brittle, so it may have just come down to that I wonder how a larger diameter hex head socket cap screw would fare, but I don't want to promote such madness these days |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/14/2024 6:22:21 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ark-and-spark: Back in the day of cheap kits and builds someone on Gunco.net built an amd-65 and used toothpicks inserted into the rivet holes. It held and functioned perfectly without breaking the toothpicks. Swell neck rivets are not necessary and never have been. I’ve built well over a dozen aks and never used a swell neck rivet. Prove me wrong. Sure.. but if the original factory does it a certain way, why wouldn't you take the small amount of extra time to do the same? |
|
|
|
SC, USA
|
Posted: 8/14/2024 6:31:16 PM EDT
[#38]
Why are you worried about a Gen 1 issue, when the Gen 3s came out five years ago give or take, maybe longer. I bought my son one about six or seven years ago, and it was a Gen 3. It's been a perfect gun. More accurate than my Arsenal SLR101S, or any other AK we've owned. It works, and it works great. They aren't falling apart or anything. All of the issues you mentioned in the OP were Gen I or II, very early on in production. Those haven't been produced in forever.
If you're concerned, call PSA and ask them if they're using the correct rivets. They'll tell you. |
|
|
AZ, USA
|
Posted: 8/14/2024 6:59:10 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mancat: Back in the day the guys doing screw builds on populated trunnions would sometimes crack the heads off of the screws after some number of rounds down the pipe The lore is that the leaded alloy rivets do have some amount of flex to them as the gun fires. Don't know how true that is. It is definitely the case that a machine screw is going to be harder than a rivet, and hard material is more brittle, so it may have just come down to that I wonder how a larger diameter hex head socket cap screw would fare, but I don't want to promote such madness these days Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mancat: Originally Posted By RD20: Excellent point re the helicoil. Those screws won't come loose with Rockset or Red Loctite if one uses Loctite"s primer. Switching tracks, I find next to no one, besides a few, actually understands how Loctite works, or when to use their primer, if they even know the primer exists. Back in the day the guys doing screw builds on populated trunnions would sometimes crack the heads off of the screws after some number of rounds down the pipe The lore is that the leaded alloy rivets do have some amount of flex to them as the gun fires. Don't know how true that is. It is definitely the case that a machine screw is going to be harder than a rivet, and hard material is more brittle, so it may have just come down to that I wonder how a larger diameter hex head socket cap screw would fare, but I don't want to promote such madness these days The only property that the addition of lead improves is machinability. It is an embrittling agent that permits a certain steel to be turned in an automatic screw machine, without an attendant present, because it inhibits long, stringy chips. No other property is improved by the addition of lead. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/14/2024 7:33:36 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ark-and-spark: Back in the day of cheap kits and builds someone on Gunco.net built an amd-65 and used toothpicks inserted into the rivet holes. It held and functioned perfectly without breaking the toothpicks. Swell neck rivets are not necessary and never have been. I’ve built well over a dozen aks and never used a swell neck rivet. Prove me wrong. So you're cool with betting your life on toothpicks, got it. I fixed a hole in my tailpipe with a beer can and baling wire, sure it works, would I bet my life on it? Hell no. Your analogy fails badly. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/14/2024 7:55:05 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By RD20: Spitballing here.....Would removing the rivets, then drilling a larger diameter to thread in a helicoil, or better yet, a timesert, then using a grade 8 bolt(s) be a simpler, easier, and far superior setup than buldged rivets? Pretty much what a lot of people back in the days of $300 AK parts kits did because they didn’t want to mess with rivets; and then a lot of those people figured out the hard way that hardened fasteners don’t like it when things flex around a lot. |
|
|
|
OH, USA
|
Posted: 8/15/2024 1:06:41 AM EDT
[#42]
I have zero idea, but I'd bet they just needed larger diameter bolts.
Automotive suspensions flex constantly, yet the bolts don't break. Diameter is probably the key, but what do I know. I'm just a dude guessing at things I know nothing about. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/15/2024 1:24:33 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Willisinnawoods: Pretty much what a lot of people back in the days of $300 AK parts kits did because they didn’t want to mess with rivets; and then a lot of those people figured out the hard way that hardened fasteners don’t like it when things flex around a lot. Dude when I first scoped out AKs right after the federal AWB expired, there were $50 Romy G kits with original barrel. I was still 19 then and it was a bit over my head so I didn't dive in. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/15/2024 11:08:11 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By RD20: I have zero idea, but I'd bet they just needed larger diameter bolts. Automotive suspensions flex constantly, yet the bolts don't break. Diameter is probably the key, but what do I know. I'm just a dude guessing at things I know nothing about. No harm in guessing I reckon. But that's also a terrible analogy. The whole reason for a suspension and it's complex design, is to try and eliminate flexing forces on the body and frame. And bolts still break sometimes because you can't eliminate all the stresses completely. Trust me, i've replaced enough to know. |
|
|
|
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.
