User Panel
Posted: 10/2/2006 8:29:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: MRW]
This topic seems to come up once a week, so a tack might be worthwhile.
It is my contention that the stock saigas do NOT need a US parts swap conversion to take high capacity mags, PROVIDED that no other conversion work is done. If you add any other "evil" feature, like a pistol grip, IN ADDITION to the ability to take high capacity mags, you must do a US parts swap to make it a "US made" rifle rather than an import. Please feel free to discuss the issue here, and keep in mind I am not, nor have I ever been, an ATF agent, nor do I pretend to play one on the internet. I make no claims of legal authority, just logical observations on existing law. If you are a team member, here is the original discussion that now rests in the archive 89 Ban and High Capacity Saigas Here is the most relevant part of the thread above
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Don't be so open-minded that your brains fall out!
General education shold not be the mere training of the hands to work, but training of the mind to properly reason. http://www.marshill.edu/trivium.htm |
To convert an Ak47 mag to fit a saiga. Take a welding rod that of the same diameter as the gap on the front of a mag. Cut it to the width of the gap. Hold it in place with vice-grips and braze it.
On the back side of the mag, The tang that locks in the mag, There is a flat side on top and a angled side. Take a dremel and slowly grind the angled side and keep trying to lock it in the gun. When it locks in, Remove it and paint it black. If you don't paint it, It will rust where you heated it. The whole process takes very little time. With this mag, You need no bullet guide. |
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Double post
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As far as I know, the 89 ban did not address shotguns, but maybe it did.
During the 94-04 Clinton Krime Bill, new semi-auto shotguns could not have a mag greater than 5 rounds, and a folding stock or pistol grip, but that's all done with. I know of no current restrictions on shotgun modifications other than 18" minimum barrel. But I don't know it all |
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Don't be so open-minded that your brains fall out
General education should not be mere training of the hands to work, but training of the mind to properly reason. http://www.welltrainedmind.com/classed.php |
so if you have a saiga-12 with the collapseable stock and 10rnd mag how many parts is that
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all of them? I'm not sure I understand the question. It would seem that all of those parts are imported, and I'm not sure of the parts count issue with regards to shotguns, if they are any different from rifles.
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Don't be so open-minded that your brains fall out
General education should not be mere training of the hands to work, but training of the mind to properly reason. http://www.welltrainedmind.com/classed.php |
A S12 has 13 parts. Rules are the same as for rifles...only 10 of those can be non US if converted . The only 10rd mag that I know of for the S12 is a US made mag(3parts) . If you add parts such as a PG and stock just keep them US made and you will be ok with a US made made mag...that said I would recommend doing a full conversion where you move the trigger and PG forward and change out the trigger group to a US group so you can use the russian mags as well. |
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So im confused a little bit. What consitutes modding the saiga shotty? I cut the barrle down to 18 1/4" I cut down and filled the rifle stock into a canted grip, is it still kosher for me to use US mags? I have not replaced any parts of the Saiga 12..
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The problem with a Saiga is you cant just go by the 1989 import ban, you must then add the 1998 Clinton executive order that banned all semi-automatics from being imported with the ability to accept high capacity magazines. If you add a high-cap mag (10+ for a rifle, 5+ for a shotgun) to a stock Saiga, you have just converted it into a configuration that is non-importable. That is why you just cant just stick a stock AK mag into a stock Saiga, or have to modify the mag well of a WASR. Even if you add a Surefire magazine, you still have to change one other part on a stock Saiga rifle The original 1989 ban did not specify mag capacity, it just said you couldn't have more than two evil features, that's why Maadis' and a couple others were still allowed to be imported during the AWB. Maadis' were imported with a 10rnd mag between 1994-1998. You could then use a pre 1994 high cap mag in a Maadi. Clinton basically, by executive order in 1998, amended the 1989 ban.
Note: if you add a high-cap mag and get the imports parts count to 10 or less, you can then do what ever your state will allow. I guess that would be an American made mag + one part for a stock rifle, and just an American made mag for a shotgun if the shotgun only has 13 import parts to begin with. |
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ok what are the benefits of moving the trigger guard and pistol grip forward on a saiga 12 when adding a folding or collapsible stock. Nowadays you can get a one piece stock and pistol grip that is easy to add to the saiga. Is the pg and trigger guard conversion worth it? thanks, RG
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Quick compliance verification checklist for Saiga conversions:
http://thegunwiki.com/Gunwiki/BuildSaigaVerifyCompliance |
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Disclaimer: I do not work for Tactical Machining, Daniel Defense, Centurion Arms, Noveske, Colt, VLTOR, AO Precision, Magpul, Giessele, Troy, Eotech, Harris, YHM, BCM, Stag, Sharp's, Lothar Walther, LMT, Tapco, or Walmart. Got all that, Sherlock?
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OK the conversion is easy and the parts are available. My thought is, for just a couple hundred dollars, I can get an Arsenal and its properly riveted, re-finished, tuned, tested and has a warranty. Don't get me wrong, the couple hundred you save is ammo money. I'm just saying, I'd rather have a nicer looking rifle than one that looks like a gun plumber special.
I'm going to buy or build an AK 74 soon. |
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Originally Posted By Sgt911:
The problem with a Saiga is you cant just go by the 1989 import ban, you must then add the 1998 Clinton executive order that banned all semi-automatics from being imported with the ability to accept high capacity magazines. If you add a high-cap mag (10+ for a rifle, 5+ for a shotgun) to a stock Saiga, you have just converted it into a configuration that is non-importable. That is why you just cant just stick a stock AK mag into a stock Saiga, or have to modify the mag well of a WASR. Even if you add a Surefire magazine, you still have to change one other part on a stock Saiga rifle The original 1989 ban did not specify mag capacity, it just said you couldn't have more than two evil features, that's why Maadis' and a couple others were still allowed to be imported during the AWB. Maadis' were imported with a 10rnd mag between 1994-1998. You could then use a pre 1994 high cap mag in a Maadi. Clinton basically, by executive order in 1998, amended the 1989 ban. Note: if you add a high-cap mag and get the imports parts count to 10 or less, you can then do what ever your state will allow. I guess that would be an American made mag + one part for a stock rifle, and just an American made mag for a shotgun if the shotgun only has 13 import parts to begin with. So, just so I get this straight and don't become a federal criminal, all I really need to do is change, say, the stock over to a Tapco, and I can run 30-rd mags legally? I mean I really doubt a Fed is waiting at my local range to check weapons, but it'd SUCK to lose my Saiga over a dumb magazine, or $40 for a Tapco Buttstock. |
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Originally Posted By hunto: So, just so I get this straight and don't become a federal criminal, all I really need to do is change, say, the stock over to a Tapco, and I can run 30-rd mags legally? I mean I really doubt a Fed is waiting at my local range to check weapons, but it'd SUCK to lose my Saiga over a dumb magazine, or $40 for a Tapco Buttstock. So long as you only run US-made mags (and essentially ALL of the high-caps are US-made).... And you ONLY use US-made conversion parts (Tapco's stocks and PGs are US-made. As are the 'G2' and Red Star Arms fire-control parts)... You are G2G. HOWEVER, the above RUSSIAN conversion-stock (folder) is 2 foreign parts, so in order to use THAT, you have to find 2 other parts (besides those in the mag) to replace with US-parts... So, for example, replacing the gas-piston and the hand-guard - and using US-made mags - would allow you to use the RUSSIAN folding-stock/pistol-grip set. |
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"Why has government been instituted at all? Because the passions of man will not conform to the dictates of reason and justice without constraint."
-Alexander Hamilton 6 Less Trolls... Next? |
Originally Posted By MRW:
This topic seems to come up once a week, so a tack might be worthwhile. It is my contention that the stock saigas do NOT need a US parts swap conversion to take high capacity mags, PROVIDED that no other conversion work is done. Anyone who believes this and follows it, let us know how Federal prison is like...... There are 2 things that trigger 922r, 1) a Pistol Grip 2) any magazine that accepts 11 rounds or more.... The Saiga Rifles/Shotguns are not C&R and are imported with 8 round mags................ You really need to do more research on this before you post this type of crap..... Here is a simple way to check compliance......................... 922r Compliance for Saiga Rifles/Shotguns Change the Mag body/follower/floor plate and see if it is compliant...... ETA: You guys are confusing importation with 922r compliance.... Screw importation and pay attention to 922r... The bans are only saying that we can not import anymore AK's, SKS model D's or M's, FAL's and any semi-auto that has a PG or high cap mag........ |
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Originally Posted By Dave_A:
Originally Posted By hunto:
HOWEVER, the above RUSSIAN conversion-stock (folder) is 2 foreign parts, so in order to use THAT, you have to find 2 other parts (besides those in the mag) to replace with US-parts... So, for example, replacing the gas-piston and the hand-guard - and using US-made mags - would allow you to use the RUSSIAN folding-stock/pistol-grip set. Wrong, by adding foreign parts to a imported semi-auto weapon you INCREASE the parts count, so if you put the stock on above you take your count from 14 parts to 16 parts and must replace 6 or more to be compliant............... Another issue you will find is, since the Saiga's are not imported with a PG, the PG does NOT count as a compliant part, so the photo above only counts as 1 part....................... |
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Originally Posted By Gunlover-AR: Originally Posted By MRW: This topic seems to come up once a week, so a tack might be worthwhile. It is my contention that the stock saigas do NOT need a US parts swap conversion to take high capacity mags, PROVIDED that no other conversion work is done. Anyone who believes this and follows it, let us know how Federal prison is like...... There are 2 things that trigger 922r, 1) a Pistol Grip 2) any magazine that accepts 11 rounds or more.... The Saiga Rifles/Shotguns are not C&R and are imported with 8 round mags................ You really need to do more research on this before you post this type of crap..... Here is a simple way to check compliance......................... 922r Compliance for Saiga Rifles/Shotguns Change the Mag body/follower/floor plate and see if it is compliant...... ETA: You guys are confusing importation with 922r compliance.... Screw importation and pay attention to 922r... The bans are only saying that we can not import anymore AK's, SKS model D's or M's, FAL's and any semi-auto that has a PG or high cap mag........ Please don't use inflammatory language in a tech forum, offer counter argument instead. and yes, #1 and #2 trigger 922r , BOTH of them, not one individually. |
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Don't be so open-minded that your brains fall out.
General education should not be mere training of the hands to work, but training of the mind to properly reason. http://www.welltrainedmind.com/classed.php |
Originally Posted By MRW:
Please don't use inflammatory language in a tech forum, offer counter argument instead. and yes, #1 and or #2 trigger 922r , BOTH of them, not one individually. Again you are wrong.............. Either one will trigger it....... Research it better...... Let me help you out, does a Saiga come imported wit a PG? The answer is no, so by changing the CONFIGURATION of the rifle from a sporter style rifle to an assault style weapon you will trigger it, using a hi-cap mag you will also trigger it regardless if you have a PG on or not... Use the spreadsheet supplied you will get your answer fast and easy... Giving bad advise, especially when you are not the one who is going to pay the ultimate price, is easy to do. Again my suggestion is to educate yourself before you post these types of comments......... |
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I still disagree, and stop being so condescending.
The WASR-10 Aks that DID have pistol grips were fine to import. They got through because they only took a single stack 10 round magazine. Same thing with the newer pistol grip and folding stock retrofit parts for Saigas specifically. So long as it remains a low-cap gun, all of those other evil features are allowed. The Mak-90 was the example from the other perspective. It did not have a pistol grip or bayonet lug or threaded muzzle. But it DID take double stack regular AK mags. It was imported for a while before the ATF said that they now considered thumbhole stocks to be pistol grips. Hell, the Norinco Uzi model Bs with the thumbhole wood stocks illustrate the same point. I sated all of this in my original post. Saigas initially have none of the evil features. I still contend that leaving it stock except for the mag conversion is fine. It would be equivalent to a grip-less Mak-90 Your checklist page is not run by the BATF, so I don't see how you can cite it as authoritative. Perhaps you would care to write a letter to the BATF and ask for a specific answer to this question. Until then, we are just going around in circles. I'm basing my opinion on what the BATF has previously allowed. we'll just have to agree to disagree and leave it at that. |
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Don't be so open-minded that your brains fall out.
General education should not be mere training of the hands to work, but training of the mind to properly reason. http://www.welltrainedmind.com/classed.php |
Originally Posted By MRW:
I still disagree, and stop being so condescending. The WASR-10 Aks that DID have pistol grips were fine to import. They got through because they only took a single stack 10 round magazine. Same thing with the newer pistol grip and folding stock retrofit parts for Saigas specifically. So long as it remains a low-cap gun, all of those other evil features are allowed. The Mak-90 was the example from the other perspective. It did not have a pistol grip or bayonet lug or threaded muzzle. But it DID take double stack regular AK mags. It was imported for a while before the ATF said that they now considered thumbhole stocks to be pistol grips. Hell, the Norinco Uzi model Bs with the thumbhole wood stocks illustrate the same point. I sated all of this in my original post. Saigas initially have none of the evil features. I still contend that leaving it stock except for the mag conversion is fine. It would be equivalent to a grip-less Mak-90 Your checklist page is not run by the BATF, so I don't see how you can cite it as authoritative. Perhaps you would care to write a letter to the BATF and ask for a specific answer to this question. Until then, we are just going around in circles. I'm basing my opinion on what the BATF has previously allowed. we'll just have to agree to disagree and leave it at that. I was going to write answers to your statements but I think this will answer your statements even better: Assault Weapons Ban L. E. Schwartz’s Is very well known on the net for his dealings with BATFE, the guy has countless letters from BATFE stating the facts ( a sticky is at the top of the page under SKS FAQ's on this forum) There is a reason for this..... I suggest that if you doubt what I say then I suggest you post this question on SKSBOARDS. Another is Saiga 12... ....................... |
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Tag for later
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I'm as smart as a horse, and hung like Einstein.
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Seems everyone is missing a nice and cheap US made part to add, Tapco retaining plate p/n; AK0690 approx.. price $7. to take the place of the cheesy Shepard's hook.
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