User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
MN, USA
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Posted: 6/7/2024 10:35:24 AM EDT
Good morning,
I have an opportunity to buy either a Polish WBP FOX or a ZPAPM70 and I have no familiarity with either of these as far a quality goes. Currently I have a VSKA and I'm looking for the next step up in quality and reliability. I also would like to change out the furniture and have the option to make other changes so the availability of aftermarket parts is also a consideration. Which one of these two options should I go with? I'm not looking for a safe queen, the function is a warhammer. Before you say "get both", the finances dictate that it has to be one or the other. Any and all information is appreciated. |
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Posted: 6/7/2024 10:38:32 AM EDT
[#1]
If it were me, I'd probably get the WPB. Both are quality guns, won't go wrong with either, but the WPB takes standard AK furniture and optic mounts while the Zastava takes Yugo pattern stuff. Both have stuff available for them, but of course the WPB will have more available.
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USA
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Posted: 6/7/2024 10:44:46 AM EDT
[#2]
Nice choice to have, getting rid of the VSKA would be an even better idea while you're at it, they're HOT garbage.
Nothing wrong with the Zastava, at all, but I agree the edge easily goes to the WBP, all day... |
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Posted: 6/7/2024 11:46:25 AM EDT
[#3]
WBP.
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MN, USA
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Posted: 6/7/2024 8:45:13 PM EDT
[#4]
So far it appears that the quality is equal between the two?
I'd prefer the Polish just simply because that is the land of my forefathers but the primary focus is reliability and quality. Anyone want to buy an unfired VSKA? 
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Posted: 6/8/2024 11:20:41 AM EDT
[#5]
I agree with the others. Quality is about equal between the two. Fit and finish might be slightly better on the WBP, although the M70 has a thicker walled receiver. You'll probably never put enough rounds through either to be able to actually see the difference in the receivers, though.
With that said I'd go WBP just because it takes standard AKM furniture. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 6/8/2024 12:12:46 PM EDT
[#6]
Here’s the thing. The Serbian [Yugo] guns are made in the same military factory where they’ve always been made. But there’s 2, or 3 different companies now making Polish AK’s. But are any of them made in the actual circle 11 military factory? Does the original circle 11 factory still exist? Are they the real deal, or just new companies living off the reputation of the real circle 11 AK’s? Anyone know for sure? GARY.
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Posted: 6/8/2024 2:27:41 PM EDT
[#7]
WBP with the FB barrel. Zastavas are unnecessarily heavy, and tough(er) for furniture.
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USA
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Posted: 6/8/2024 7:02:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Capt_Destro]
[#8]
I love the M70, furniture isn't really an issue if it's your first purchase. The proprietary furniture is only an issue if you have a ton of parts laying around. Plenty of companies make Yugo stuff now.
I would definitely get the WBP though. Basically the WBP with an optic/flash light will weigh about the same weight as a naked M70. The Yugo's handguard/gas tube length is pretty nice though. Great if you have large hands. |
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Posted: 6/9/2024 1:04:51 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By N4KVE: Here’s the thing. The Serbian [Yugo] guns are made in the same military factory where they’ve always been made. But there’s 2, or 3 different companies now making Polish AK’s. But are any of them made in the actual circle 11 military factory? Does the original circle 11 factory still exist? Are they the real deal, or just new companies living off the reputation of the real circle 11 AK’s? Anyone know for sure? GARY. The circle 11 factory became FB Radom, makers of the Beryl. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 6/9/2024 11:51:03 AM EDT
[#10]
So under what name are they sold here in the USA? WBP, Pioneer, or something else? I still have an AK built on a #’s matching Polish kit [even the barrel] on a FEG receiver. Looking for the same quality. GARY.
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Posted: 6/9/2024 12:29:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: fike]
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By N4KVE: So under what name are they sold here in the USA? WBP, Pioneer, or something else? I still have an AK built on a #’s matching Polish kit [even the barrel] on a FEG receiver. Looking for the same quality. GARY. They are sold as FB Radom. Arms of America is the importer and Atlantic has been selling as well. The Beryl series (5.56) has been the Polish army rifle for a long time and is currently being replaced by the MSBS Grot. They also produced a 7.62x39 Beryl for the Nigerian army (which is also imported by AofA).  Fabryka Broni "Lucznik" – Radom Factory Tour  wz.96 Beryl: Poland's 5.56mm Military AK  MSBS Grot: The Complete History of Poland's New Army Rifle |
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Posted: 6/9/2024 12:57:17 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By fike: They are sold as FB Radom. Arms of America is the importer and Atlantic has been selling as well. The Beryl series (5.56) has been the Polish army rifle for a long time and is currently being replaced by the MSBS Grot. They also produced a 7.62x39 Beryl for the Nigerian army (which is also imported by AofA).  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-uSugYpUbk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGUHYjZFg5c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9A54ODrzq0I recall reading that WBP purchased a lot of older Radom tooling when FB opened their new factory. Don't know if this is true or not. OP if your family has Polish heritage, the choice seems clear. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 6/9/2024 2:57:11 PM EDT
[#13]
I was wondering that too. So WBP guns may be built on retired FB machinery. I’ve also read that FB sells barrels to WBP. And I’ve also read that Pioneer is junk to avoid. Maybe that’s why they’re $hundred’s less.
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Posted: 6/9/2024 6:41:19 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By N4KVE: I was wondering that too. So WBP guns may be built on retired FB machinery. I’ve also read that FB sells barrels to WBP. And I’ve also read that Pioneer is junk to avoid. Maybe that’s why they’re $hundred’s less. Once upon a time Pioneer had a bunch of videos on their YouTube channel showing how they were building them. They were doing lots of shortcuts like riveting the barreled trunnion assembly into the receiver, using the chamber journal as the bucking surface, did not dimple the receiver into the trunnion, or use swell neck rivets. Bending receiver flats basically by hand in a non guarded bending brake All of the stuff that has been known for a long time to garage AK builders not to do, they were doing all of it. The videos long since have been deleted |
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Posted: 6/9/2024 7:46:21 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mancat: Once upon a time Pioneer had a bunch of videos on their YouTube channel showing how they were building them. They were doing lots of shortcuts like riveting the barreled trunnion assembly into the receiver, using the chamber journal as the bucking surface, did not dimple the receiver into the trunnion, or use swell neck rivets. Bending receiver flats basically by hand in a non guarded bending brake All of the stuff that has been known for a long time to garage AK builders not to do, they were doing all of it. The videos long since have been deleted That was the curse of a number of now defunct companies, Century in fact seems to keep doing it and never learns from their mistakes. It's that "trash-can gun" mentality. They think it's simple therefore easy to reproduce and aww hell we don't need to use quality parts. Been good to see what PSA has done, they made all the same mistakes at first, but one by one they've learned and by most accounts are making some good US made AK's now. |
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Posted: 6/9/2024 9:52:25 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Dragynn: That was the curse of a number of now defunct companies, Century in fact seems to keep doing it and never learns from their mistakes. It's that "trash-can gun" mentality. They think it's simple therefore easy to reproduce and aww hell we don't need to use quality parts. Been good to see what PSA has done, they made all the same mistakes at first, but one by one they've learned and by most accounts are making some good US made AK's now. PSA seems to be one of the few gun manufacturers that listens to customers and actually acknowledges mistakes in production and corrects them according to more knowledgeable customers input. |
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Posted: 6/12/2024 7:06:12 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By N4KVE: I was wondering that too. So WBP guns may be built on retired FB machinery. I've also read that FB sells barrels to WBP. And I've also read that Pioneer is junk to avoid. Maybe that's why they're $hundred's less. WBP and FB Radom work closely together on several projects. WBP supplies FB with some of their parts and FB does sell barrels and other components to WBP. Below is a picture of the WBP Jack AK47 Classic .  |
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MN, USA
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Posted: 6/15/2024 2:16:16 PM EDT
[#18]
** Quick update **
Apparently the Polish AK only accepts single stack mags..... I'm assuming that's a deal breaker and seals the deal for going with the ZPAP? Thoughts?? |
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Posted: 6/15/2024 2:37:53 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By celticmarksman: ** Quick update ** Apparently the Polish AK only accepts single stack mags..... I'm assuming that's a deal breaker and seals the deal for going with the ZPAP? Thoughts?? Where did you see that? I don’t think I’ve seen a single stack WBP anywhere myself. Looking at Arms of America’s website, all the Fox, Jack, and DIY WBP guns are all regular mag compatible. Heck, the last single stack AK I’ve seen was probably an ancient early 2000s WASR with the “sporter” Dragunov-style stock. |
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Posted: 6/15/2024 4:01:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: ATLANTIC-FIREARMS]
[#20]
The WBP Fox & Jack series take standdard double stack mags , You can see this in the pictures
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FL, USA
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Posted: 6/15/2024 4:14:04 PM EDT
[#21]
They have to be single stack to enter the country, but once here, the mag well gets hogged out to accept double stack mags. Same with any imported military style rifle. Notice I didn’t say assault weapon. GARY.
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Posted: 6/15/2024 9:55:22 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AZ5326X2: WBP with the FB barrel. Zastavas are unnecessarily heavy, and tough(er) for furniture. +1. I own a 1984 Polish AKM parts kit build and a more recent Zastava M70 import. A classic AKM is what I would rather lug around. The Zastava uses a RPK receiver for rifle grenades, something which we Americans have no use for. |
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Posted: 6/15/2024 9:56:49 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By celticmarksman: ** Quick update ** Apparently the Polish AK only accepts single stack mags..... I'm assuming that's a deal breaker and seals the deal for going with the ZPAP? Thoughts?? False. The WBPs sold stateside accept double stack AK magazines once they are converted to meet 922R requirements . |
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Posted: 6/15/2024 9:59:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: fike]
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By themao: False. The WBPs sold stateside accept double stack AK magazines once they are converted to meet 922R requirements . Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By themao: Originally Posted By celticmarksman: ** Quick update ** Apparently the Polish AK only accepts single stack mags..... I'm assuming that's a deal breaker and seals the deal for going with the ZPAP? Thoughts?? False. The WBPs sold stateside accept double stack AK magazines once they are converted to meet 922R requirements . Not all of them. https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2018/10/23/new-polish-wbp-fox-rifle-imported-by-arms-of-america/  |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 6/15/2024 10:46:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: N4KVE]
[#25]
And that’s how all AK’s come into the country. Once here, the barrel is threaded, the mag well is hogged out, a folding stock can be added, & the required 922 parts are added. They are even built with the double stack front trunnion to make the modification easier for the importer. Maybe a few were sold as single stack, but that photo is 5-6 years old. But to enter the country, that’s how all AK’s look. GARY
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Posted: 6/15/2024 10:57:24 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By N4KVE: And that’s how all AK’s come into the country. Once here, the barrel is threaded, the mag well is hogged out, a folding stock can be added, & the required 922 parts are added. They are even built with the double stack front trunnion to make the modification easier for the importer. Maybe a few were sold as single stack, but that photo is 5-6 years old. But to enter the country, that’s how all AK’s look. GARY I know. The first Gen were imported and sold as non 922r guns. No idea on the numbers, but they are out there. |
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Posted: 6/16/2024 10:27:02 AM EDT
[Last Edit: ATLANTIC-FIREARMS]
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By fike: I know. The first Gen were imported and sold as non 922r guns. No idea on the numbers, but they are out there. Atlantic Firearms has been involved with the WBP Imports since day one and they were not released en masse as single stack models. WBP did not want the rifles to be poorly converted and conversions were required to be done by a WBP Factory approved facility. There may have been a small number of single stacks that leaked out but very limited numbers. |
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TN, USA
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Posted: 6/16/2024 8:35:30 PM EDT
[#28]
I have both, and love both, but you can't beat a standard AKM if you're one and done.
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Posted: 6/16/2024 8:46:57 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Citadel-SC: you can't beat a standard AKM if you're one and done. Definitely |
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MN, USA
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Posted: 6/16/2024 9:23:57 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryOriginally Posted By fike: Originally Posted By themao: Originally Posted By celticmarksman: ** Quick update ** Apparently the Polish AK only accepts single stack mags..... I'm assuming that's a deal breaker and seals the deal for going with the ZPAP? Thoughts?? False. The WBPs sold stateside accept double stack AK magazines once they are converted to meet 922R requirements . Not all of them. https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2018/10/23/new-polish-wbp-fox-rifle-imported-by-arms-of-america/ https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/New-Polish-WBP-FOX-Rifle-Imported-by-Arms-of-America-3.jpg FWIW, I don't have a hosting account so I don't know how to show you pictures otherwise......  |
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Posted: 6/17/2024 10:07:05 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryWow. How did that happen? Kudos to Atlantic Firearms for chiming in... |
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MN, USA
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Posted: 6/18/2024 9:17:03 AM EDT
[#32]
I guess the other question that I have is how would a guy mount an optic on the Polish?
That was the issue with the VSKA that I picked up, I didn't think ahead far enough that I might want to put a fixed 4 power or something like that on it for deer hunting. |
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VA, USA
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Posted: 6/18/2024 9:30:15 AM EDT
[#33]
Use any akm scope mount. Rs regulate, Midwest industries, and master mount make the nicest from what I have used.
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Posted: 6/18/2024 8:41:19 PM EDT
[#34]
The current WBP Fox and Jack series have an optic rail on the left side that will accept standard AK scope mounts .
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MN, USA
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Posted: 6/18/2024 9:47:06 PM EDT
[#35]
Unfortunately the model that I'm looking at does not have the optic rail.
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Posted: 6/18/2024 9:51:39 PM EDT
[#36]
I have both
Polish FTW |
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Posted: 6/18/2024 10:04:20 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By celticmarksman: Unfortunately the model that I'm looking at does not have the optic rail. So it’s a used WBP Fox with a single stack mag and no optic rail?  That sounds like someone else’s problem gun.At this point I’d just give up on it and go with the Zastava. |
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Posted: 6/19/2024 7:14:51 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By celticmarksman: Unfortunately the model that I'm looking at does not have the optic rail. Are you sure it was a WBP factory rifle ? Atlantic Firearms has been working with the WBP rifles since day 1 and do not recall a Fox rifle model with no rail being imported. Sounds funky and there is something odd about that rifle. |
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Posted: 6/20/2024 5:01:15 PM EDT
[#39]
Absolutely nothing wrong with the Zastava
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