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Posted: 12/30/2009 5:16:22 PM EDT
[#1]
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I hate to butt in, but what is the consensus guys? what caliber should I get my next AR chambered in and where can I find the barrel, dies, etc.? I really like the .25 x 40 concept. I get up at 5 AM myself, so I better get outa here as well. Indy give us an idea of what you are thinking about using it for.......plinking, hunting, etc...... I've been talking with someone about doing some .25 barrels, one of the issues with a lot of wildcats are the dies....the Hornady .25 dies I had made are superb, but they take a while to get due to the industry backlogs.....one of the reasons I've been doing work with the TCU dies, easier to get.....I've got the die parts on the bench to put together a set for the .25 to try out, just working on other projects...... I will be primarily punching paper with it in the hopes of doing some hunting. My Grendel is fine for hunting, but I am less than happy with the dozen C-products magazines I bought for it. I have tried out all of the ones I bought and only one or two I would consider reliable. I don't want to burn up 300 rounds of ammo just to weed out the good magazines (if there are any really) from the bad ones. If I can get away with using unmodified GI magazines (or PMAGs  preferably) that would be great.
Anyway, back to the 25x40 thing. I am willing to wait for a couple of reasons. I want to make sure you guys get the design settled and "Frozen" if that is possible with a wildcat. Second I have been laid-off from my engineering job for about a year now so I can't afford anything at the moment. I am hoping something will shake loose in 2010 so I can act on this, you can never have too many guns or uppers in this case. I have been a AR fan since Colt came out with the HBAR back in the 1980's (yep, had one but sold it) and there are a lot of very well thought out engineering and manufacturing principals in this rifle that most people do not realize. Yes it had a bit of a rocky start but all is better now with the exception of the caliber (5.56x45). I really like the 6.5mm bore size, but anything from the .243 to .284 size should work. I'm going off track a bit, just keep me in the loop when you guys are thinking about doing something for sure, I hope I can join in the fun. How much do you think a barrel for the AR would run? Would that be with the barrel extension and ready to go? What about the cost of Hornady dies? Thanks, Indy |
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Posted: 12/30/2009 5:43:27 PM EDT
[#2]
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I went with Kurt's 6.8x40 based on the 5.56. It'll push a 85grTSX at 2900fps so it should shoot fairly flat out to 200yds. It allows me to utilize common bolts, brass, and mags. If I wanted to go SPC later I could have the bbl rechambered I suppose. Kurt also does the 7.62x40, .25x40 on the 5.56 case as well as some cats on the x39 case (the 7ARK looks like it might out do both the grendel and the SPC). Wow, thanks for the props.......yep, should be able to rechamber the SPC over the x40, as the x40 is about .070" shorter in the nose..... the 7 is working out pretty good... Thanks again |
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Posted: 12/30/2009 6:07:38 PM EDT
[#3]
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I hate to butt in, but what is the consensus guys? what caliber should I get my next AR chambered in and where can I find the barrel, dies, etc.? I really like the .25 x 40 concept. I get up at 5 AM myself, so I better get outa here as well. Indy give us an idea of what you are thinking about using it for.......plinking, hunting, etc...... I've been talking with someone about doing some .25 barrels, one of the issues with a lot of wildcats are the dies....the Hornady .25 dies I had made are superb, but they take a while to get due to the industry backlogs.....one of the reasons I've been doing work with the TCU dies, easier to get.....I've got the die parts on the bench to put together a set for the .25 to try out, just working on other projects...... I will be primarily punching paper with it in the hopes of doing some hunting. My Grendel is fine for hunting, but I am less than happy with the dozen C-products magazines I bought for it. I have tried out all of the ones I bought and only one or two I would consider reliable. I don't want to burn up 300 rounds of ammo just to weed out the good magazines (if there are any really) from the bad ones. If I can get away with using unmodified GI magazines (or PMAGs preferably) that would be great.
Anyway, back to the 25x40 thing. I am willing to wait for a couple of reasons. I want to make sure you guys get the design settled and "Frozen" if that is possible with a wildcat. Second I have been laid-off from my engineering job for about a year now so I can't afford anything at the moment. I am hoping something will shake loose in 2010 so I can act on this, you can never have too many guns or uppers in this case. I have been a AR fan since Colt came out with the HBAR back in the 1980's (yep, had one but sold it) and there are a lot of very well thought out engineering and manufacturing principals in this rifle that most people do not realize. Yes it had a bit of a rocky start but all is better now with the exception of the caliber (5.56x45). I really like the 6.5mm bore size, but anything from the .243 to .284 size should work. I'm going off track a bit, just keep me in the loop when you guys are thinking about doing something for sure, I hope I can join in the fun. How much do you think a barrel for the AR would run? Would that be with the barrel extension and ready to go? What about the cost of Hornady dies? Thanks, Indy The few .25s we're shooting have yet to draw any blood, lots of paper.....I have a mix of A&B and McGowen blanks that we used between 1:10 and 1:12 twist, we did one on a 16" McGowen 1:10 that is surgical, I mean you don't have to work at it all, point squeeze and it prints groups about the size of a dime at 100yds...we've tried just about every .223 mag, G.I., PMAGS, HK .....they all work great no mods...... Using the custom Hornady dies the chamber design of the .25s are pretty well "frozen".....If I get the 'Bailey' running with .223 bushing dies, or the 'Cottonmouth' with TCU bushing dies there is probably one revision I would like to make.... The cost of a barrel is subject to the blank used.....you'll see that anywhere......single sets of custom dies for most cartridges through Hornady are around $150.00 IIRC......with the 7.62x40 we did a larger order and got the price down around $90.00 as an example...... |
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Posted: 12/30/2009 7:37:34 PM EDT
[#4]
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......Not asking you to give up any trade secrets, but curious why you favor the 30* shoulder...... there's a good bit of information collected in benchrest circles of cartridges that use the 30* shoulder and perform well...... I talked about this a little on the 7.62x40 thread probably over a year or so ago, I was down in Florida visiting the folks and had a conversation with a retired NASA engineer about solid fuel rockets.....he said during the development of the De Laval nozzle the optimum angle for funneling the hot gasses was found to be 30*......so much so that in some cases it caused the gas to tripple in velocity with only 10* of change back to 30*..........I realize there is a difference in burn rates between a cartridge charge and a solid rocket, but there are other things that use the 30* angle....so if nothing else it's a good compromise..... |
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Posted: 1/7/2010 5:51:33 PM EDT
[#5]
My parts are on the way for my 6.8 build.
I wound up with a 9" TRX-E instead of a 11" since the 11's were on back order but I'm ok with that ... . . should work out good with the middy bbl and allow me a regular or flip-up gas block. I hope to get pics up by the end of the month .
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Posted: 2/27/2010 10:50:01 AM EDT
[#6]
Interesting info from this months Small Arms Review in an article "The Search for the Optimum Military Rifle & Machine Gun Cartridge":
An attempt to design an optimum military rifle round took place in the UK around 1970. The preferred solution was in 6.25mm caliber, firing a bullet of 100-grains at 2,680 fps. Tests revealed that this matched the 7.62x51 in penetration out to 600 meters and remained effective for a considerably longer distance, while producing recoil closer to the 5.56x45.
We're very close to achieving that performance with the .25 caliber wildcats posted in this thread, and in a 5.56mm-sized cartridge envelope rather than the much larger cartridge the Brits used in 1970. Soooo close to the design exercise I mentioned on page one here 
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Posted: 2/27/2010 12:37:03 PM EDT
[#7]
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Interesting info from this months Small Arms Review in an article "The Search for the Optimum Military Rifle & Machine Gun Cartridge": An attempt to design an optimum military rifle round took place in the UK around 1970. The preferred solution was in 6.25mm caliber, firing a bullet of 100-grains at 2,680 fps. Tests revealed that this matched the 7.62x51 in penetration out to 600 meters and remained effective for a considerably longer distance, while producing recoil closer to the 5.56x45.
We're very close to achieving that performance with the .25 caliber wildcats posted in this thread, and in a 5.56mm-sized cartridge envelope rather than the much larger cartridge the Brits used in 1970. Soooo close to the design exercise I mentioned on page one here
Gamma762, Do you have a link to this article? 320pf |
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Posted: 2/27/2010 1:29:27 PM EDT
[#8]
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Interesting info from this months Small Arms Review in an article "The Search for the Optimum Military Rifle & Machine Gun Cartridge": An attempt to design an optimum military rifle round took place in the UK around 1970. The preferred solution was in 6.25mm caliber, firing a bullet of 100-grains at 2,680 fps. Tests revealed that this matched the 7.62x51 in penetration out to 600 meters and remained effective for a considerably longer distance, while producing recoil closer to the 5.56x45.
We're very close to achieving that performance with the .25 caliber wildcats posted in this thread, and in a 5.56mm-sized cartridge envelope rather than the much larger cartridge the Brits used in 1970. Soooo close to the design exercise I mentioned on page one here
Gamma762, Do you have a link to this article? It's not available online as far as I am aware of. It's in the current months' edition of Small Arms Review magazine. |
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Posted: 3/14/2010 1:29:45 PM EDT
[#9]
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Interesting info from this months Small Arms Review in an article "The Search for the Optimum Military Rifle & Machine Gun Cartridge": An attempt to design an optimum military rifle round took place in the UK around 1970. The preferred solution was in 6.25mm caliber, firing a bullet of 100-grains at 2,680 fps. Tests revealed that this matched the 7.62x51 in penetration out to 600 meters and remained effective for a considerably longer distance, while producing recoil closer to the 5.56x45.
We're very close to achieving that performance with the .25 caliber wildcats posted in this thread, and in a 5.56mm-sized cartridge envelope rather than the much larger cartridge the Brits used in 1970. Soooo close to the design exercise I mentioned on page one here
I came across this the other day; Answering Questions About Guns, Ammo, and Man's Best Friend (look towards the bottom of the article. It begs a similar discussion regarding the effectiveness of .25 cal projectiles. First shot placement trumps all. I do not think that there will be much argument here... that Bullet type matters. However, what the best bullet type is may cause some discussion. My experience agrees with the study's observation, that a good quality soft point bullet expanding bullet (of appropriate weight for caliber) like Sierra GameKings and Nosler Ballistic Tips work better than the monolithic type. http://www.dnr.sc.gov/wildlife/deer/articlegad.html:
"Significant difference between bullet types. This study indicates that rapidly expanding bullets lead to deer running less often and less distance and when they run they leave better sign." I do not quit agree with this conclusion http://www.dnr.sc.gov/wildlife/deer/articlegad.html:
"No difference in effectiveness of various calibers.." Caliber______# Deer___Yards Traveled .243 (6mm)_____48_____40 .25 (6.35mm)___36_____14 .270 (6.8mm)___84_____ 31 .284 (7mm)____160_____26 .30 (7.62mm)___116____ 33 The deer shot with 25 Cal rifle tended to travel half the average distance compared to all other calibers. Too bad the author did not give the standard deviations with the averages so one could do some statistical testing. But I would guess that "half the average distance compared to all other calibers" is likely to be significant. It could be that the population of .25 cal. shooters are better marksman compared to the other caliber populations. Comments welcome 320pf |
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Posted: 3/14/2010 6:00:13 PM EDT
[#10]
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... I came across this the other day; Answering Questions About Guns, Ammo, and Man's Best Friend (look towards the bottom of the article. It begs a similar discussion regarding the effectiveness of .25 cal projectiles. First shot placement trumps all. ... Caliber______# Deer___Yards Traveled .243 (6mm)_____48_____40 .25 (6.35mm)___36_____14 .270 (6.8mm)___84_____ 31 .284 (7mm)____160_____26 .30 (7.62mm)___116____ 33 The deer shot with 25 Cal rifle tended to travel half the average distance compared to all other calibers. Too bad the author did not give the standard deviations with the averages so one could do some statistical testing. But I would guess that "half the average distance compared to all other calibers" is likely to be significant. It could be that the population of .25 cal. shooters are better marksman compared to the other caliber populations. Comments welcome 320pf Most likely seeing data from a few 25-06's. Learned a few things reading it: the mean distance of shots taken at deer was 132 yards ; 50-50% chance of deer dropping DRT or running, and a trained dog accounted for 15-20 percent of the deer recovery/harvest during this study. I'd really like to see the same study done entirely with .223-Rem and .223-based wildcats and limiting shots to 75-125 yards. Maybe Kurt and his gang could have a go at it come this fall... Or maybe one of the gun magazines could do an article on it... |
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Posted: 3/14/2010 6:38:46 PM EDT
[#11]
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Most likely seeing data from a few 25-06's. Learned a few things reading it: the mean distance of shots taken at deer was 132 yards ; 50-50% chance of deer dropping DRT or running, and a trained dog accounted for 15-20 percent of the deer recovery/harvest during this study. I'd really like to see the same study done entirely with .223-Rem and .223-based wildcats and limiting shots to 75-125 yards. Maybe Kurt and his gang could have a go at it come this fall... Or maybe one of the gun magazines could do an article on it... So you are saying that the 25-06 is a deer killing machine? That has been my experience with the 25-06 as well. Although, I think that the various 25-223 wildcats discussed in this thread will work very well on deer witin 0 to 150 - 200 yrds |
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Posted: 3/16/2010 6:34:05 PM EDT
[#12]
My knowledge of the 25-06 is very limited - I'll defer to your experience. Other than the variants here, it's just the first "hunting" caliber I could think of that would fit into the .25cal group they had.
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Posted: 3/17/2010 8:48:12 PM EDT
[#13]
UPDATE: 6.35.43mm (257/223) project
I am running the gun without a gas port to see how it runs before I the port in. Here are some new results. Load Data: (standard disclaimer as with any wild-cat, use at own risk and work up slow) 75 gr Hornaday V-Max (16-inch barrel) 21.9gr IMR4227 = 3020 fps for starting load reduce powder charge by 5% Primers were round and brass look good. 87 gr Speer TNT (16-inch barrel) 21.9gr IMR4227 = 2840 fps for starting load reduce powder charge by 10% Primers just starting to flatten edges and brass look good. For my rifle, I would reduce this load by 0.5gr for general use. These results seem to confirm that H4895 and W748 powders are too slow for this caliber at this barrel length. 320pf Quoted:
6.35.43mm (257/223) project update I had a chance to try loading(W748 in the 25-223AR* *.223 parent brass opened up to .25-cal; shortened to 43mm; maintains .223 body taper, same body shoulder junction height, does't require fire-forming. Load Data: (standard disclaimer as with any wild-cat, use at own risk and work up slow) Note: The powder was loaded into the case using an eight drop tube. This facilitated a more dense/compact powder column. 100 gr Speer SPBT (16-inch barrel) 25.5gr W748 = 2350 fps 26.0gr W748 = 2411 fps 26.5gr W748 = 2435 fps 27.0gr W748 = 2475 fps 27.5gr W748 = 2510 fps 28.5gr W748 = 2548 fps No signs of high pressure. Am interesting phenomena occurred with this load. The ejected brass was was cool to the touch. The barrel was was only mildly warm after each five shot string. SO this powder must burn pretty cool. There was NO powder residue in the barrel after each shot so W748 must also burn fairly clean. In addition, all 30 round from this test grouped within 3-inches over the 200 fps velocity spread. I was not trying to shoot for groups. I used the published loads for BL-C(2) in the 6x45mm found the Hodgdon reloading manual for a starting reference. The Hodgdon web site shows that W748 is ranked at 82 and Hodgdon BL-C(2) is ranked at 83 on their burn rate chart. For example Hodgdon lists: 6x45mm 85 gr SPR SP BL-C(2) (24" barrel) Start: 25.5gr.-2566 fps; Max: 27.5gr.-2811 fps 90 gr SPR SP BL-C(2) (24" barrel) Start: 25.05gr.-2523 fps; Max: 27.0gr.-2744 fps 100 gr HDY SP BL-C(2) (24" barrel) Start: 24.5gr.-2404 fps; Max: 26.5gr.-2619 fps 320pf Quoted:
Kurt, I took your advise and I am running the gun without a gas port to see how it runs before I the port in. Here are my results from this weekend. 6.35.43mm (257/223) project Load Data: (standard disclaimer as with any wild-cat, use at own risk and work up slow) 100 gr Speer SPBT (16-inch barrel) 23.0gr H4895 = 2294 fps 23.5gr H4895 = 2336 fps 24.0gr H4895 = 2350 fps 24.5gr H4895 = 2400 fps 25.0gr H4895 = 2463 fps 25.5gr H4895 = 2505 fps 75 gr Hornaday V-Max (16-inch barrel) 25.5gr H4895 = 2560 fps 26.0gr H4895 = 2600 fps 26.5gr H4895 = 2678 fps 27.0gr H4895 = 2728 fps 27.5gr H4895 = 2803 fps I think that H4895 is a bit too slow of a powder for this cartridge. Also there is no way that I can get anything close to the amount of powder in this cartridge as that listed for the 257 Kimber. I have some IMR 3031 around to try but from the data posted on Kurtz's 25/40mm, I think that 1680 may be the best powder. We will find out. By the way, Thanks Kurt for the inspiration for doing this wildcat. Your 25/40m has provided a lot of the "heavy lifting" for this Cat. 320pf Edit: added information on barrel length |
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Posted: 4/20/2010 9:26:35 PM EDT
[#14]
bump
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Posted: 5/2/2010 2:52:44 PM EDT
[#15]
weekend bump.
Also, just curious what has been happening with this experiment. I was just looking at some data on the 6x45mm round and it looks like it shows promise as well, but I think the fact the case length is unaltered and it looks very much like a .223/5.56 round could be an issue (ammo mix up). I'm just sayin', don't want any kabooms. 
Indy |
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Posted: 5/2/2010 6:44:28 PM EDT
[#16]
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weekend bump. Also, just curious what has been happening with this experiment. I was just looking at some data on the 6x45mm round and it looks like it shows promise as well, but I think the fact the case length is unaltered and it looks very much like a .223/5.56 round could be an issue (ammo mix up). I'm just sayin', don't want any kabooms.
Indy The 25-223 will not chamber in a 223 chamber rifle. The case mouth is too large and the case will not fit into the chamber and let the bolt close into battery. This does NOT prevent the trigger sear from releasing. The case will not fit into the chamber, even if you let the bolt/carrier group go forward at full release. 320pf |
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Posted: 5/3/2010 11:13:17 AM EDT
[#17]
I finally got a chance to do a little shooting for myself. Trying out a wildcat (the 25/223) and moving do not mix. Never enough time to get everything done.
I may not have the highest velocity with a load of 100 gr. Speer Soft Point, 21.0 grains of 1680 and Winchester small rifle primers, but I can not fault the accuracy. The largest five shoot group (100 yds.) measured 13/16" while the smallest was 9/16". The velocities averaged 2475 FPS. I'll play with the loads a bit up and down, but I'll trade off a little velocity for accuracy any day. So far the 25/223 has been an easy project. The only change required was the barrel. (16" Shilen). So far old military and PMAGS have all worked great. The loading is simple enough. You neck up to 25 caliber and then trim the case by 2mm. The funny part was that accuracy wasn't that great to start with but about the time I hit the 100 round mark it just fell together. |
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Posted: 5/29/2010 8:26:40 PM EDT
[#18]
Where do you guys find gunsmiths who will chamber wildcat AR-15 barrels? And where do you get the AR-15 blanks?
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Posted: 5/31/2010 5:50:17 AM EDT
[#19]
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Out of curiosity what is the case length on the 358 Ark? 35.5mm or shorter might open up an interesting possibility. I run my 358 brass at 1.425" ( 36.195mm ) .........there should be enough room in the neck to trim it back another .7mm http://media.ar15.com/media/viewFile.html?i=12578 I would love to see more info on the 358 ARK. |
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Posted: 6/3/2010 4:21:05 PM EDT
[#20]
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About the only difference is the 25x40 has the shoulder set back and it is trimmed shorter. The 25-223 is just necked up in the resizing and then trimmed about 2mm to make sure it does not ride to high on the bullet when it is seated to fit into an AR magazine. This is about as easy as it gets for a wildcat. The advantage to the 25x40 is I think it will fit heavier bullets (over 100 gr.) If I was a wealthy man I could try them all. (may not get much work done but it would be fun) I wish it was that easy....... From the start the 25x40 was designed as a work-around for game management areas that did not allow .22 caliber center-fire cartridges.... It was not by luck or fluke that .25 cal was selected for the project, there was close to a decade of previous testing done on small cases similar to a PPC... There are a lot of BC crunchers here so it was laid out for use up to the more slick 100gr Matchking, although I gravitate more to the 80TTSX as a all-around hunter, currently running over 3,000fps....and that's pretty fast for a slow bullet....usually stay at or under 100gr, point of diminishing return. The smaller case and geometry offer several advantages that I won't get into here but one being that it accelerates the rise to peak pressure allowing smaller charges of powder and achieving the same or better performance of its full-size cousin in shorter barrels.... With a 20" tube? 17“ Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile So Kurt, will the .25x40 be available? Now that I have my hands on one of your 7.62x40's (I picked it up from 87GN) I'm in the market to fill the gap between the .223 and the 7.62. I think I've got it narrowed to the .25x40 or the 6.5MPC. The hold-up on the 25x40 has always been the dies......the last sets of Hornady dies I ordered took right at eight months to receive, the eight to twelve weeks quoted by other sources didn't strike me well either.... The 25x40 Bailey maintains the basic case geometry of the 5.56 so off the shelf small base 5.56 neck bushing dies can be altered and used without having to fire-form.....the original 25x40 (cottonmouth) had a couple chamber revisions made so off the shelf TCU dies can be used with fire-forming....so the die situation is nearing resolution.... To me the Bailey has the most advantages: fits 416 mags, belts, beta 100 rounders, a little shorter than the cottonmouth (feeds more smooth), etc.... Quoted:
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About the only difference is the 25x40 has the shoulder set back and it is trimmed shorter. The 25-223 is just necked up in the resizing and then trimmed about 2mm to make sure it does not ride to high on the bullet when it is seated to fit into an AR magazine. This is about as easy as it gets for a wildcat. The advantage to the 25x40 is I think it will fit heavier bullets (over 100 gr.) If I was a wealthy man I could try them all. (may not get much work done but it would be fun) I wish it was that easy....... From the start the 25x40 was designed as a work-around for game management areas that did not allow .22 caliber center-fire cartridges.... It was not by luck or fluke that .25 cal was selected for the project, there was close to a decade of previous testing done on small cases similar to a PPC... There are a lot of BC crunchers here so it was laid out for use up to the more slick 100gr Matchking, although I gravitate more to the 80TTSX as a all-around hunter, currently running over 3,000fps....and that's pretty fast for a slow bullet....usually stay at or under 100gr, point of diminishing return. The smaller case and geometry offer several advantages that I won't get into here but one being that it accelerates the rise to peak pressure allowing smaller charges of powder and achieving the same or better performance of its full-size cousin in shorter barrels.... With a 20" tube? 17“ Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Your getting more than a full size 25TCU sporting more powder. I wish my 6.5x1.6 TCU would do this. It's a pretty fast barrel......standard stuff is within a 100fps....the Barnes bullets aren't usually very fast but I worked with the 80TTSX a little more to get a load for my daughter to antelope hunt with..... |
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Posted: 6/3/2010 4:28:28 PM EDT
[#21]
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Out of curiosity what is the case length on the 358 Ark? 35.5mm or shorter might open up an interesting possibility. I run my 358 brass at 1.425" ( 36.195mm ) .........there should be enough room in the neck to trim it back another .7mm 
I would love to see more info on the 358 ARK. It's really nothing that hasn't been done before, just my version.....a little shorter, different shoulder and neck.....uses 7.62x39 bolts and mags.....putting together a 14.5" AR right now.....have a 358 PacNor CZ 527 blank that I never got around to mounting up and the receiver got mated with a 7mmARk barrel so the 358 blank will probably be heading to the EE... |
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Posted: 6/3/2010 4:32:13 PM EDT
[#22]
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Where do you guys find gunsmiths who will chamber wildcat AR-15 barrels? And where do you get the AR-15 blanks? I'm fortunate to have a friend that contours most of my blanks for me, I do most of my own chambering....for some of the experimenting I do, I use various blanks off Midway and have them cut up to whatever I need..... |
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Posted: 6/3/2010 4:35:11 PM EDT
[#23]
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My parts are on the way for my 6.8 build. I wound up with a 9" TRX-E instead of a 11" since the 11's were on back order but I'm ok with that ... . . should work out good with the middy bbl and allow me a regular or flip-up gas block. I hope to get pics up by the end of the month .
hope it's close, always like pics :o) |
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Posted: 6/3/2010 5:46:36 PM EDT
[#24]
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My parts are on the way for my 6.8 build. I wound up with a 9" TRX-E instead of a 11" since the 11's were on back order but I'm ok with that ... . . should work out good with the middy bbl and allow me a regular or flip-up gas block. I hope to get pics up by the end of the month .
hope it's close, always like pics :o) I'd been fought to a stand still , but to show you that I'm a fighter I'll get picks up soon !
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Posted: 6/3/2010 7:52:46 PM EDT
[#25]
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About the only difference is the 25x40 has the shoulder set back and it is trimmed shorter. The 25-223 is just necked up in the resizing and then trimmed about 2mm to make sure it does not ride to high on the bullet when it is seated to fit into an AR magazine. This is about as easy as it gets for a wildcat. The advantage to the 25x40 is I think it will fit heavier bullets (over 100 gr.) If I was a wealthy man I could try them all. (may not get much work done but it would be fun) I wish it was that easy....... From the start the 25x40 was designed as a work-around for game management areas that did not allow .22 caliber center-fire cartridges.... It was not by luck or fluke that .25 cal was selected for the project, there was close to a decade of previous testing done on small cases similar to a PPC... There are a lot of BC crunchers here so it was laid out for use up to the more slick 100gr Matchking, although I gravitate more to the 80TTSX as a all-around hunter, currently running over 3,000fps....and that's pretty fast for a slow bullet....usually stay at or under 100gr, point of diminishing return. The smaller case and geometry offer several advantages that I won't get into here but one being that it accelerates the rise to peak pressure allowing smaller charges of powder and achieving the same or better performance of its full-size cousin in shorter barrels.... With a 20" tube? 17“ Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile So Kurt, will the .25x40 be available? Now that I have my hands on one of your 7.62x40's (I picked it up from 87GN) I'm in the market to fill the gap between the .223 and the 7.62. I think I've got it narrowed to the .25x40 or the 6.5MPC. The hold-up on the 25x40 has always been the dies......the last sets of Hornady dies I ordered took right at eight months to receive, the eight to twelve weeks quoted by other sources didn't strike me well either.... The 25x40 Bailey maintains the basic case geometry of the 5.56 so off the shelf small base 5.56 neck bushing dies can be altered and used without having to fire-form.....the original 25x40 (cottonmouth) had a couple chamber revisions made so off the shelf TCU dies can be used with fire-forming....so the die situation is nearing resolution.... To me the Bailey has the most advantages: fits 416 mags, belts, beta 100 rounders, a little shorter than the cottonmouth (feeds more smooth), etc.... So if I wanted a .25x40 Bailey I would need a barrel from you and a small base 5.56 neck bushing die. Will you have any barrels for sale anytime soon and would you have a recommended die for this setup? Also, have you tested this round with the 110gr Nosler Accubond or the 115gr Nosler BT? I know that the ideal bullet weight is 100gr or less as anything bigger will encroach on the powder capacity but I'd like to know what it is capable of with the heavier bullets. |
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Posted: 6/4/2010 4:19:24 AM EDT
[#26]
Quoted:
So if I wanted a .25x40 Bailey I would need a barrel from you and a small base 5.56 neck bushing die. Will you have any barrels for sale anytime soon and would you have a recommended die for this setup? Also, have you tested this round with the 110gr Nosler Accubond or the 115gr Nosler BT? I know that the ideal bullet weight is 100gr or less as anything bigger will encroach on the powder capacity but I'd like to know what it is capable of with the heavier bullets. I've been using the Redding dies.....trim some off the base and open the neck a little.... The only barrels I'm working on right now are for other wildcat development.... With the available capacity of the Bailey, as you increase bullet weight, powders with faster burn rates need to be used to make up for the capacity loss and keep the velocity up, which necessitates the use of a shorter barrel.....I have used the heavier bullets....they're not much slower than the 100 matchking, but they do require a shorter barrel length and stout brass.... |
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Posted: 7/2/2010 7:44:33 PM EDT
[#27]
I really need to get pics up.
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Posted: 7/9/2010 3:15:37 PM EDT
[#28]
Quoted:
I really need to get pics up. Would like to see it.....if i remember right, that barrel should have no problem printing .4" to .5" 100yd groups
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Posted: 7/9/2010 3:45:23 PM EDT
[#29]
Got a chance to put together a 20" 7 ARk rig......
Didn't get to run too many loads, running everything in......but it is coming along very well.... It's a little over-scoped for me, but it gave me a chance to fiddle with a NF NXS that is heading toward a 1,000 yd. bolt gun I'm working on..... Rifle Specs: 20" 7mm ARk 1:14 twist OPS inc. brake Rifle length Troy TRX Rifle length Noveske Switchblock Nightforce NXS 12x42 
The TRX had to be milled a little to accept the Switchblock......I also set-up the Switchblock for running medium pressure loads, high pressure loads, and off..... 
I usually use Lapua 7.62x39mm or Grendel brass for forming the ARk loads.....I was given some of the Hornady Grendel brass to wildcat on.....the necks are pretty thick, but made it all work out...... 
Was mainly running everything in today but ran some of the 120 BTBT out to 200 yds at 2,770 fps. with good results.... 
The 120 gr load at 2,770 fps delivers 1,000 ft/lbs of energy out past 400yds so it should work out well for a antelope trip we've got set up for in October...... Quoted:
More range results with the 7 and .30 ARk...... As with any wildcat, use reloading data at your own risk. 7ARk ( 120gr BTBT ) .30ARk ( 125 BTBT ) 
7ARk 120gr BTBT 27gr 2230 = 2,230 fps 120gr BTBT 29gr 2230 = 2,440 fps 120gr BTBT 32gr 2230 = 2,675 fps 321 power factor .30ARk 125gr BTBT 27gr 2230 = 2,030 fps 125gr BTBT 30gr 2230 = 2,350 fps 125gr BTBT 32gr 2230 = 2,510 fps 7ARk ( 110 TTSX ) .30ARk ( 110 TTSX ) 
7ARk 110gr TTSX 32gr 2230 = 2,710 fps 110gr TTSX 28.5gr 1680 = 2,810 fps 110gr TTSX 29gr 1680 = 2,870 fps 110gr TTSX 29.5gr 1680 = 2,919 fps .30ARk 110gr TTSX 32gr 2230 = 2,450 fps 110gr TTSX 26gr 5744 = 2,508 fps 110gr TTSX 27gr 5744 = 2,600 fps 7ARk 162gr AMAX 21gr 5744 = 2,080 fps 336 power factor 162gr AMAX 22gr 5744 = 2,166 fps 350 power factor 162gr AMAX 23gr 5744 = 2,208 fps 357 power factor .30ARk 135gr SMK 25gr 5744 = 2,354 fps 135gr SMK 26gr 5744 = 2,435 fps 328 power factor 135gr SMK 27gr 5744 = 2,525 fps 340 power factor 155gr SMK 22gr 5744 = 2,040 fps 155gr SMK 23gr 5744 = 2,150 fps 333 power factor 155gr SMK 24gr 5744 = 2,240 fps 347 power factor ETA..fix copy paste screw-ups Quoted:
went to the range today and tested more loads for the 7ARk and did some comparison with the 30ARk and 7.62x40mm....... As with any wildcat, use reloading data at your own risk. 100gr Sierra Varmint 26gr 1680 = 2,690 fps 100gr Sierra Varmint 27gr 1680 = 2,825 fps 100gr Sierra Varmint 28gr 1680 = 2,895 fps 100gr Sierra Varmint 29gr 1680 = 2,950 fps 100gr Sierra Varmint 29.5gr 1680 = 3,030 fps 110gr Barnes TTSX 28.5gr 1680 = 2,820 fps 110gr Barnes TTSX 29gr 1680 = 2,875 fps 110gr Barnes TTSX 29.5gr 1680 = 2,920 fps 7ARk, 6.8 SPC, .30ARk 
Compared a few loads between the .30ARk and 7.62x40mm in 20" barrels.... .30ARk 125gr TNT 27gr 1680 = 2,480 fps 125gr TNT 28gr 1680 = 2,560 fps 125gr TNT 29gr 1680 = 2,653 fps 7.62x40mm 125gr TNT 26.5gr 1680 = 2,620 fps The .30ARk isn't as efficient as the 7.62x40mm with the lighter bullets.....but with bullets over 130gr the ARk pulls ahead.....more on that later..... Quoted:
Got a little range time with the 7mmARk today, sorry for the crappy cell phone pics....forgot my camera at home 
7mmARk, 18", 1:10 twist 
worked up a few loads with the 110 TNT using 1680 and 2230 powders.... Standard disclaimer, as with any wildcat use reloading data at your own risk. 110gr TNT 25gr 1680 = 2,515 fps 110gr TNT 26gr 1680 = 2,660 fps 110gr TNT 27gr 1680 = 2,750 fps 110gr TNT 28gr 1680 = 2,860 fps 110gr TNT 30.5gr 2230 = 2,725 fps 110gr TNT 31.5gr 2230 = 2,795 fps 110gr TNT 32.5gr 2230 = 2,904 fps ( right at 320 power factor with a 110 ) 
This set-up really likes the 2230....at 2,900 fps I fired several five shot groups that the majority of the groups were cloverleafs..... 7mmARk, 6.8 SPC, 6.5 Grendel 
The 7mmARk is formed from 7.62x39 Russian or 6.5 Grendel brass.......feeds perfect from C products 6.5 Grendel or 7.62x39mm mags..... In comparable platforms and hunting test range, the 7mmARk is outperforming both my 6.8 SPC and 6.5 Grendel.....it has more capacity than the 6.8 and less bore pressure than the 6.5 the loads of 2230 at 2,900fps exhibited no signs of high pressure ( ejector / extractor swipes, extruded brass, extruded primers, etc.....) |
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Posted: 7/9/2010 9:58:20 PM EDT
[#30]
How do the TAC7 and 7ARK compare ?
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Posted: 7/10/2010 6:04:21 AM EDT
[#31]
Quoted:
How do the TAC7 and 7ARK compare ? Hi GB, At a glance: TAC 7 Multi-purpose cartridge, 1,000 to 2,800 fps velocity window.....heavy sub-sonic to light super-sonic.....made possible combined with our double gas block system..... Formed from SSA 6.8 SPC brass, shortened and blown out slightly..... Has a usable max capacity right at 28 gr ( Accurate 1680 ) Capacity lends itself to shorter barrels and powders on the fast side.... Compared to the ARk info above......a 120 gr BTBT can be launched at 2,600 fps from a 14.5" barrel.....fast powder and the brass lives around 5 or 6 reloads.... 100 HPFB, 110 TNT, 120 BTBT, 162 BTBT, 180 VLD 
Double gas block system.... 
Complete TAC 7 System 
7 ARk Conventional intermediate cartridge...2,600 to 3,000 fps velocity window Formed from Lapua 7.62x39, Grendel or Hornady Grendel brass ( neck-turned ) Has a usable max capacity of 35gr depending on brass ( Accurate 1680) Capacity lends itself to little longer barrels and medium burn-rate powders.... Compared to the TAC 7 info above....a 120gr BTBT can be launched over 2,800fps from a 20" barrel.....medium burn-rate powder, have not loosened a primer pocket yet, around 10 reloads.... 7mm ARk 
7mm ARk, 6.8 SPC, .30 ARk
6.8mm ARk, 7mm ARk, .30 ARk 
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Posted: 7/11/2010 7:06:41 PM EDT
[#32]
Thanks Kurt , that TAC7 packs alot of versatility.
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Posted: 7/17/2010 2:45:20 PM EDT
[#33]
I received a couple calls asking about the accuracy of the 20" 7 ARk rig, and what barrel was used.......
The barrel was originally cut for a 7mm "Varmint for Score" match rifle.....The 1:14 twist was found to be a little on the fast side for the the velocity that the bolt-gun was capable of, so it was re-cut for the AR platform.... To be competitive in a "VFS" match the rifle and shooter need to be capable of shooting .200" groups at 200yds to be in the running for most " X's " (the little dot in the middle of the target)....At most of our local club matches you'll see stuff like 30BR, 7BR, 6PPC, etc...... So the .6 or .7 that the AR was shooting was in-line with what was expected for this barrel.... 1:14 twist PacNor .284" 6 groove ultramatch.... Quoted:
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Posted: 8/1/2010 9:20:00 AM EDT
[#34]
Nice thread. I particularlly liked the write up of the development of the .25x40mm (aka 25 Bailey). Its a well thought out wildcat. And, already has the "improved" version developed in the initial prototype. Your load with the 100 grain Sierra Game King produced some interesting results, and while not matching the external ballistics of the 6.8 spc, produced muzzle energy that easily surpasses the 5.56x45mm and that equals and slightly surpasses the 7.62x39mm. For your hotter loads, the bullet weight, velocity and muzzle energy approach what Anthony G. Williams considered ballistics for a 6.3mm assault cartridge.
7mm/.284": bullet weight 8.4g (130 grains) at 770 m/s (2,525 fps) = 2,500j 6.85mm/.270": bullet weight 7.9g (122 grains) at 784 m/s (2,570 fps) = 2,430j 6.5mm/.264": bullet weight 6.9g (106 grains) at 820 m/s (2,690 fps) = 2,330j 6.35mm/.25": bullet weight 6.5g (100 grains) at 834 m/s (2,736 fps) = 2,260j 6mm/.243": bullet weight 5.9g (91 grains) at 854 m/s (2,800 fps) = 2,150j Have you had any success using the cartridge in a bolt action? |
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Posted: 9/28/2010 5:20:05 AM EDT
[#35]
Quoted:
have been working on a couple different evolutions of the .25 and think we have decided on a final reamer....the .25 cottonmouth was kind of a test bed to see if the additional capacity created by blowing the shoulder out and changing the shoulder angle to 30 degrees made a difference with the powders we hoped to use.... what we found out was with powders the burn rate and load density of 1680 and 2230 the additional space wasn't required to reach a load capable of pushing a 85 grainer to 2,900 fps out of a 16" barrel.... It looks like the .25 that we have decided on making available will be the .25 Bailey or 6.3x40mm Bailey......it maintains the 5.56 case taper and shoulder angle but is 5mm shorter to allow for the loading of 85 to 100gr bullets.....this case geometry allows for use in the most 5.56 specific of AR mags....like the H&K 416 mags... The 6.3x40 Bailey compared to a 5.56x45 http://media.ar15.com/media/viewFile.html?i=5516 Bailey = truth / justice Thanks, Kurt Kurt It's been almost a year since you typed the above. Do you still think the .25 Bailey gives up nothing to .25x40mm? How are the modified .223 dies working? Any updates on the Bailey? Thanks |
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Posted: 9/28/2010 11:42:50 AM EDT
[#36]
Quoted:
Nice thread. I particularlly liked the write up of the development of the .25x40mm (aka 25 Bailey). Its a well thought out wildcat. And, already has the "improved" version developed in the initial prototype. Your load with the 100 grain Sierra Game King produced some interesting results, and while not matching the external ballistics of the 6.8 spc, produced muzzle energy that easily surpasses the 5.56x45mm and that equals and slightly surpasses the 7.62x39mm. For your hotter loads, the bullet weight, velocity and muzzle energy approach what Anthony G. Williams considered ballistics for a 6.3mm assault cartridge. 7mm/.284": bullet weight 8.4g (130 grains) at 770 m/s (2,525 fps) = 2,500j 6.85mm/.270": bullet weight 7.9g (122 grains) at 784 m/s (2,570 fps) = 2,430j 6.5mm/.264": bullet weight 6.9g (106 grains) at 820 m/s (2,690 fps) = 2,330j 6.35mm/.25": bullet weight 6.5g (100 grains) at 834 m/s (2,736 fps) = 2,260j 6mm/.243": bullet weight 5.9g (91 grains) at 854 m/s (2,800 fps) = 2,150j Have you had any success using the cartridge in a bolt action? With the AR frame we live within a world of 2.250" to 2.3xx"......so that's what it's laid out for.....If I was gonna do a dedicated bolt gun it would probably be for something more along the lines of a TCU and the bullet hung way out in the nose.... Mr Williams has some really neat stuff and info....I'm pretty happy with the 100SMK loads....and the Bailey is adaptable to all sorts of feed devices....working on a select-fire conversion that feeds from Beta-C mags, should be neat..... |
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Posted: 9/28/2010 11:56:55 AM EDT
[#37]
Quoted:
...... Do you still think the .25 Bailey gives up nothing to .25x40mm? How are the modified .223 dies working? Any updates on the Bailey? How time flies.....there's no doubt, as close as the cartridges are - they're different....the cottonmouth wins the internal ballistics battle and I think has a small edge in accuracy due to its consistency....one shooting session I thought there was something wrong with my chronograph because it clocked five rounds all the same, then it did it again.... The case of the Bailey is a little smaller, does the same amount of work with a little less powder....and I think it's a little more versatile from a feeding device standpoint.... A standard .223 neck bushing die cut-down works great.....a small base .223 neck bushing die cut down makes a reaaaalllllly small base.... updates are it works pretty good..... |
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Posted: 10/13/2010 10:45:49 PM EDT
[#38]
The .25x40mm shed some blood this week...I could of used a stiff drink at the time but managed to pull it off even though the windows in the blind were chattering from my right hand not doing exactly what I wanted or expected it to do
A 80gr TTSX at 3,000fps and a 'high shoulder shot' did the trick on this nine point.....He threw his head back, pawed at the sky three or four times with the right leg and did a reverse spiral on his way to Valhalla....didn't move three feet from point of impact.... 
entry and exit about a inch below the spine.... 
This is my happy face
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Posted: 10/14/2010 8:07:12 AM EDT
[#39]
Nicely done, brother...
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Posted: 10/14/2010 9:05:57 AM EDT
[#40]
Looks good! That TTSX preformed perfect.
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Posted: 10/14/2010 6:29:47 PM EDT
[#41]
what powder and how much are you using to get 3,000 fps out of the 80 gr ttsx?
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Posted: 10/15/2010 6:18:43 PM EDT
[#42]
Quoted:
Nicely done, brother... Thanks, it was one hell of a rush.....I had worked up some of the loads to that of the .250-3000 so I was pretty confident in the cartridge and rifle, I was the unknown....It all worked out....ate some backstrap tonight
Thanks again... |
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Posted: 10/15/2010 6:27:08 PM EDT
[#43]
Quoted:
Looks good! That TTSX preformed perfect. The thing that surprised me was how the skin arrested the expanded bullet.....best guess, looking at the carcass and inside of hide, the bullet impact pulled the skin away an area about the size of a basketball, then rebounded.... |
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Posted: 10/15/2010 6:33:23 PM EDT
[#44]
It's interesting how common it is for the bullet to stop at the hide. It's happened to me before with a 270 Winchester.
I want a 25 Bailey for next years deer rifle! EDIT TO ADD: I'm surprised that buck went down so fast with a lung shot and one busted rib. They usually run 50-100 yards with a lung shot. Maybe you .25 caliber guys are on to something!  |
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Posted: 10/15/2010 6:55:37 PM EDT
[#45]
Quoted:
what powder and how much are you using to get 3,000 fps out of the 80 gr ttsx? I put the barrel lengths and loads in the 7.62x40 thread..... Quoted:
....The only thing the .25x40 does for you is let you load longer bullets and for our little VA deer there isn't really a need for the heavier bullets.... Left to right: 80 TTSX, 85 Nosler, 100 SMK 
The 80 is pretty long....but at 3,000fps it'll keep 1,000 ft/lbs out past 200yds.......had the buck above not been a drop kill, the thing that concerns me is that there would of been no blood trail on a 106 yd shot..... |
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Posted: 10/15/2010 7:13:14 PM EDT
[#46]
Quoted:
It's interesting how common it is for the bullet to stop at the hide. Skin is very elastic and very strong. In terminal ballistics research at one time there was great emphasis placed on trying to create an exit wound under the theory that it would double blood loss (a theory that doesn't really pan out...), and it was found (IIRC) that in order to get reliable exit wounds was the equivalent of 4 more inches of penetration in gel - and most animals have significantly tougher skin that do humans. IMHO an expended bullet just inside the skin on the opposite side has exhibited essentially perfect performance. |
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Posted: 10/15/2010 7:18:37 PM EDT
[#47]
Quoted:
It's interesting how common it is for the bullet to stop at the hide. It's happened to me before with a 270 Winchester. I want a 25 Bailey for next years deer rifle! EDIT TO ADD: I'm surprised that buck went down so fast with a lung shot and one busted rib. They usually run 50-100 yards with a lung shot. Maybe you .25 caliber guys are on to something! Not lung shot....'high shoulder shot' I waited til he made a stride with the right leg and opened up the scapula, was about a inch below the spine...I think it plays more on spinal shock than damaging the lungs or boiler room.... high shoulder shot vs. behind shoulder shot |
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Posted: 10/15/2010 7:20:17 PM EDT
[#48]
Quoted:
Quoted:
It's interesting how common it is for the bullet to stop at the hide. Skin is very elastic and very strong. In terminal ballistics research at one time there was great emphasis placed on trying to create an exit wound under the theory that it would double blood loss (a theory that doesn't really pan out...), and it was found (IIRC) that in order to get reliable exit wounds was the equivalent of 4 more inches of penetration in gel - and most animals have significantly tougher skin that do humans. IMHO an expended bullet just inside the skin on the opposite side has exhibited essentially perfect performance. no doubt it expended all of its energy.....ETA just the lack of blood caught me off guard had I needed to track.... |
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Posted: 10/16/2010 7:14:44 AM EDT
[#49]
Quoted:
Maybe you .25 caliber guys are on to something!
Quoted:
Quoted:
About the only difference is the 25x40 has the shoulder set back and it is trimmed shorter. The 25-223 is just necked up in the resizing and then trimmed about 2mm to make sure it does not ride to high on the bullet when it is seated to fit into an AR magazine. This is about as easy as it gets for a wildcat. The advantage to the 25x40 is I think it will fit heavier bullets (over 100 gr.) If I was a wealthy man I could try them all. (may not get much work done but it would be fun) I wish it was that easy....... From the start the 25x40 was designed as a work-around for game management areas that did not allow .22 caliber center-fire cartridges.... It was not by luck or fluke that .25 cal was selected for the project, there was close to a decade of previous testing done on small cases similar to a PPC... There are a lot of BC crunchers here so it was laid out for use up to the more slick 100gr Matchking, although I gravitate more to the 80TTSX as a all-around hunter, currently running over 3,000fps....and that's pretty fast for a slow bullet....usually stay at or under 100gr, point of diminishing return. The smaller case and geometry offer several advantages that I won't get into here but one being that it accelerates the rise to peak pressure allowing smaller charges of powder and achieving the same or better performance of its full-size cousin in shorter barrels.... I was involved in that testing.... Have built .25s on 38 to 45mm cases, there is a difference....other than longer bullets.... |
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Posted: 10/24/2010 7:37:00 PM EDT
[#50]
Wow a surprise on page 8 - glad to see the results. Congrats 762!!
I hope more of your variants score this year too. I don't remember that rifle being pictured before... please give us the gun and load run-down so we don't have have to wade thru that long x40 thread, thanks. Was the chambered round loaded-long or all rounds the same at 2.260 mag-length? Retained weight of the 80gr slug? Expanded diameter of slug? Scope power setting? Edit, never mind, I see most of my questions answered on current last page 24... With more hunting details and kills too. Very Nice. http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=121&t=382761&page=24 |
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