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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - (Official) Hornady Frontier - Kabooms, Issues, Info, and Data Thread (List Updated 10/26) (Page 2 of 4)
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Quoted: Maybe I'm wrong but I'm thinking a Wylde Chamber could contribute to this? |
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I had a much longer response written up but as a new poster I'm limited to 2,000 characters. Very long story short... I purchased a 500rd case of Hornady 55gr Frontier M193 Lot # SMQ18C867-007. I made it through about 200 rounds before having a catastrophic problem. Several blown primers and it also appears that the jackets were separating/rupturing. Several end cap strikes on a Surefire 300 SPS mounted to a KAC SR-15. Hornady's response has been that they have never heard of any issues with the ammo, that jacket separations are extremely rare and that most likely there is something wrong with my rifle and/or the way I mounted the silencer. I currently have an RMA number and am in the process of shipping the ammunition back to them for "testing."    |
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Thank you! I was going to ask, but figured I’d leave it up to you. Quoted:
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I’ll start a thread with the complete story later (including pictures of the damaged suppressor and brake) so you can link to it. @Dr_Cornwallis - For now I just linked to your post in this thread. Will edit the hyperlink when/if you start your own thread specific to your issue. |
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@Dr_Cornwallis - For now I just linked to your post in this thread. Will edit the hyperlink when/if you start your own thread specific to your issue. But, just speaking from the cheap seats, I think this thread right here is the perfect place for his post & photos. |
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Quoted: Issues list in OP updated 10/26 @Dr_Cornwallis - For now I just linked to your post in this thread. Will edit the hyperlink when/if you start your own thread specific to your issue. https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/Hornady-Frontier-M193-Blown-Primers-And-Jacket-Rupture/16-745082/?r=-1&page=1&anc=7980881#i7980881 |
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Quoted: There is a lot about this hobby that I don't understand but how can a rifle issue cause blown primers? Or is that another way for them to deflect blame? 2Hut8 |
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Quoted: First, the damage to his stuff sucks, pure & simple. But, just speaking from the cheap seats, I think this thread right here is the perfect place for his post & photos. The examples I’ve catalogued are concerning to many. But, in each case, the impacted shooter has a very unique interest in their own issue. By having their own singular threads, their misfortune won’t get lost in the larger sea of mishaps. And they can use their own thread to really dive into the details, answer questions, record the process of any interaction with Hornady, etc. Anything noteworthy can then be succinctly highlighted and summarized in my thread. Quoted: I had some spare time time tonight and I'm really enjoying the crisp clicky sound my new Mac Book Air's keyboard makes so I wrote the full story. Link is below. https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/Hornady-Frontier-M193-Blown-Primers-And-Jacket-Rupture/16-745082/?r=-1&page=1&anc=7980881#i7980881 Like just about every other thread, Hornady’s response is disappointing. Actually kind of infuriating. I’ll look forward to seeing what they say once their testing is complete. Unfortunately, their track record with handling these issues doesn’t inspire confidence. Hopefully you don’t have to deal with more of the same from them. The indications that jackets may have been rupturing is interesting. And not the first time it’s been theorized. May prove to be an important piece of data in the larger effort to figure out what’s going wrong with the Frontier ammo. |
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Quoted: I’m all for him posting his photos and details here. This thread was meant to identify, catalogue, and discuss the issues with Hornady’s Frontier ammo. At the same time, I can understand how each unique instance could warrant its own thread. The examples I’ve catalogued are concerning to many. But, in each case, the impacted shooter has a very unique interest in their own issue. By having their own singular threads, their misfortune won’t get lost in the larger sea of mishaps. And they can use their own thread to really dive into the details, answer questions, record the process of any interaction with Hornady, etc. Anything noteworthy can then be succinctly highlighted and summarized in my thread. Thanks for the heads-up on your new thread. I updated the link in my OP accordingly. Excellent write up BTW. Like just about every other thread, Hornady’s response is disappointing. Actually kind of infuriating. I’ll look forward to seeing what they say once their testing is complete. Unfortunately, their track record with handling these issues doesn’t inspire confidence. Hopefully you don’t have to deal with more of the same from them. The indications that jackets may have been rupturing is interesting. And not the first time it’s been theorized. May prove to be an important piece of data in the larger effort to figure out what’s going wrong with the Frontier ammo. Quoted:
Roger, I'm with you. And that is a great write-up. :) |
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I posted about my positive experience with Frontier here. I have paused because I have been testing different loadings in my 14.5 but I absolutely intend to shoot all 500 rounds through my AR pistol. Thus far it has been great; soft points, more accurate than M193 and at the same price. If this controversy doesn’t kill the entire line and if don’t have any kabooms I will buy more. It’s a truck gun afterall. ETA: Interesting as my stuff is SMQ19B8. Maybe I am in the clear. Although I do have a few mags of 62gr BTHP from the offending lot number that I was going to get rid of. Now I am nervous to shoot it. I was in a conundrum. My OCD didn't want those 100 rounds in my ammo supply but my thriftiness wouldn't allow me to throw it out. Only one thing to do: shoot it out of my most expendable AR. |
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Meh I said fuck it. I fired the 100 rounds of the questionable lot number today. Noticeably more recoil than usual but beyond that no issues. Check of all 100 primers didn't indicate anything strange. It did seem to divot the steel I was shooting slightly deeper than other rounds but nothing crazy. I was in a conundrum. My OCD didn't want those 100 rounds in my ammo supply but my thriftiness wouldn't allow me to throw it out. Only one thing to do: shoot it out of my most expendable AR. Quoted:
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I posted about my positive experience with Frontier here. I have paused because I have been testing different loadings in my 14.5 but I absolutely intend to shoot all 500 rounds through my AR pistol. Thus far it has been great; soft points, more accurate than M193 and at the same price. If this controversy doesn’t kill the entire line and if don’t have any kabooms I will buy more. It’s a truck gun afterall. ETA: Interesting as my stuff is SMQ19B8. Maybe I am in the clear. Although I do have a few mags of 62gr BTHP from the offending lot number that I was going to get rid of. Now I am nervous to shoot it. I was in a conundrum. My OCD didn't want those 100 rounds in my ammo supply but my thriftiness wouldn't allow me to throw it out. Only one thing to do: shoot it out of my most expendable AR. |
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This is likely what'll happen to all my frontier 5.56 M193 even though I don't have any of the suspected Lot#s Quoted:
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I posted about my positive experience with Frontier here. I have paused because I have been testing different loadings in my 14.5 but I absolutely intend to shoot all 500 rounds through my AR pistol. Thus far it has been great; soft points, more accurate than M193 and at the same price. If this controversy doesn’t kill the entire line and if don’t have any kabooms I will buy more. It’s a truck gun afterall. ETA: Interesting as my stuff is SMQ19B8. Maybe I am in the clear. Although I do have a few mags of 62gr BTHP from the offending lot number that I was going to get rid of. Now I am nervous to shoot it. I was in a conundrum. My OCD didn't want those 100 rounds in my ammo supply but my thriftiness wouldn't allow me to throw it out. Only one thing to do: shoot it out of my most expendable AR. |
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Except that the "known affected lots" were not known until somebody's shit blew up. Quoted:
Quoted: Personally, I don't see any reason to be concerned about this ammunition; as long as it's not one of the known affected lot numbers. |
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That, and we’re dealing with lot numbers. If it were only one lot, I’d be more inclined to give mine a go. Quoted:
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Quoted: Personally, I don't see any reason to be concerned about this ammunition; as long as it's not one of the known affected lot numbers. |
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Except that the "known affected lots" were not known until somebody's shit blew up. We have no evidence to suggest otherwise. |
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True but so far, they've ended up being 100% the same; which leads me to believe that the problem is limited to that common denominator. We have no evidence to suggest otherwise. Quoted:
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Except that the "known affected lots" were not known until somebody's shit blew up. We have no evidence to suggest otherwise. There is too much vetted/quality ammo available currently to gamble with unsafe offerings. To each their own. |
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Yeah. That’s the point I was alluding to. The fact is, we have no idea how many impacted lots are out there. Quoted:
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My worries are that there are bad lots out there yet undiscovered or that the loading issue is cyclic and potentially repeatable. |
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I'm not one for guessing and hoping. The potential risk is not worth it. Coupled with the fact that Hornady will not stand behind their product speaks volumes. There is too much vetted/quality ammo available currently to gamble with unsafe offerings. To each their own. A) widespread, catastrophic issues with ammunition B) The manufacture absolutely refused to recognize anything wrong with the ammunition |
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Except that the "known affected lots" were not known until somebody's shit blew up. Quoted:
Quoted: Personally, I don't see any reason to be concerned about this ammunition; as long as it's not one of the known affected lot numbers. |
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I'm not one for guessing and hoping. The potential risk is not worth it. Coupled with the fact that Hornady will not stand behind their product speaks volumes. There is too much vetted/quality ammo available currently to gamble with unsafe offerings. To each their own. Quoted:
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Except that the "known affected lots" were not known until somebody's shit blew up. We have no evidence to suggest otherwise. There is too much vetted/quality ammo available currently to gamble with unsafe offerings. To each their own. |
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I was about to post the same thing. Has anyone looked into the chambers that KB? Quoted:
Quoted: Maybe I'm wrong but I'm thinking a Wylde Chamber could contribute to this? The .223 Wylde has the same chamber angling as the standard 5.56 chamber, so there’s no problem with pressures. |
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@tigwelder1971 Agreed. Yet some refuse to recognize the potential. |
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Yup and in the event that I have a kaboom I will add that data point to this thread. Quoted:
Quoted: About all you can do at this point. Hopefully all goes well. Maybe some rounds showing a spike in velocity compared to a larger sample? Eta: kind of grabbing at straws, I know. |
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Quoted: Why? The .223 Wylde has the same chamber angling as the standard 5.56 chamber, so there’s no problem with pressures. Though, 5.56 in a 223 chamber normally won't blow-up a rifle the way we are seeing with this ammo. It is surely some overcharging of some sort or powder mix up. |
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I accept it. However, I am also sitting on 400ish rounds of this stuff. The SP 55gr has been accurate for what it is and I can't see myself tossing that much ammo in the trash. I will accept some risk in my truck AR and re-assess after that ammo is spent. My guess is they became aware of the problem and quietly fixed it. My SP lot is a 2019 lot number and I am not aware of any SMQ19 lots yet having kabooms. I didn't know about the frontier kb issues until after I had already purchased. Sooooo… I am going to be patient, accept some limited risk to my most disposable AR and see how it shakes out. By the time I have this case shot (six months or longer as I shoot other rifles too) we will have more data points to consider. I will base my future consumption of this ammo on that. Quoted:
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@tigwelder1971 Agreed. Yet some refuse to recognize the potential. As always pay attention for heavier than normal recoil, and look for high pressure signs on the fired brass. I suspect 99.something% of it is solid and hornady accurate, just don't want to have to start a kaboom thread 
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No, the chambers are not the same. I only brought it up as a possible issue for this ammo. Though, 5.56 in a 223 chamber normally won't blow-up a rifle the way we are seeing with this ammo. It is surely some overcharging of some sort or powder mix up. Quoted:
Quoted: Why? The .223 Wylde has the same chamber angling as the standard 5.56 chamber, so there’s no problem with pressures. Though, 5.56 in a 223 chamber normally won't blow-up a rifle the way we are seeing with this ammo. It is surely some overcharging of some sort or powder mix up. |
| I sure hope y’all aren’t returning all your ammo when you have a kaboom. If they refuse to do anything about your damaged property, you are literally sending them your only evidence. If a court case will ever happen, you need to retain enough of it for independent testing. |
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I agree, with any string of events like this, we should always look for common clues. Quoted:
Quoted: Any 5.56 that kabooms a .223 wylde chamber is likely gonna kaboom a 5.56 nato chamber and should be recalled If they were standing behind their ammo for these kabooms I'd worry less, but no need to buy ammo that the mfg isn't going to stand behind. I'd expect them to replace the weapons, and swap out any ammo from kaboom lots at the owners request. |
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No, the chambers are not the same. Quoted:
Quoted: Why? The .223 Wylde has the same chamber angling as the standard 5.56 chamber, so there’s no problem with pressures. 
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Curious, do you have access to a chronograph? I'd be interested in velocity ranges over a broad scope. Maybe some rounds showing a spike in velocity compared to a larger sample? Eta: kind of grabbing at straws, I know. I don't own one but I know people who do. |
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Interested in results in the event that you get an opportunity. Logistically it won't be feasible for me to get results throughout the entire case's usage. However, I should be able to get some data from a box or two this coming week. I will select the boxes from the case randomly as opposed to in sequence. |
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Quoted: @Tigwelder1971 Logistically it won't be feasible for me to get results throughout the entire case's usage. However, I should be able to get some data from a box or two this coming week. I will select the boxes from the case randomly as opposed to in sequence. An unexpected gain of fps from a round/s may show a powder charge variance/pressure spike? Again, grabbing at straws but ANY solid data may help in identifying the issue/s with some of this ammo. |
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Folks with a scale may be able to tare weigh a box or two. Because it is all factory the weights should be damn close. Same brass, bullet, powder. An overcharge that is enough to kaboom a rifle should show up and be obvious. Full disclosure, I don't hand load. |
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My understanding was that there isn't enough case capacity in a 5.56 to overcharge it as long as the correct powder is used. Meaning you could pack it full and it wouldn't be catastrophic unless the wrong powder was used, or if there were traces of an incorrect powder. Even in that case, I don't know how it would show up by weighing boxes. Full disclosure, I don't hand load. Quoted:
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Folks with a scale may be able to tare weigh a box or two. Because it is all factory the weights should be damn close. Same brass, bullet, powder. An overcharge that is enough to kaboom a rifle should show up and be obvious. Full disclosure, I don't hand load. |
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My understanding was that there isn't enough case capacity in a 5.56 to overcharge it as long as the correct powder is used. Meaning you could pack it full and it wouldn't be catastrophic unless the wrong powder was used, or if there were traces of an incorrect powder. Even in that case, I don't know how it would show up by weighing boxes. Full disclosure, I don't hand load. That being said, if not possible to over charge 5.56 (which I understand IS possible, right/wrong?), really all that leaves is a pressure spike upon detonation, whether case separation or possibly incorrect chamber dimensions? Is there another variable? |
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My understanding was that there isn't enough case capacity in a 5.56 to overcharge it as long as the correct powder is used. Meaning you could pack it full and it wouldn't be catastrophic unless the wrong powder was used, or if there were traces of an incorrect powder. Even in that case, I don't know how it would show up by weighing boxes. Full disclosure, I don't hand load. |
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Quoted: That being said, if not possible to over charge 5.56 (which I understand IS possible, right/wrong?), really all that leaves is a pressure spike upon detonation, whether case separation or possibly incorrect chamber dimensions? Is there another variable?  I have in a handful of instances over the years seen where insufficient tension on the case neck of a round further down in a magazine will cause it to seat further, compressing the powder load, and being "hotter" when it comes time for it to be shot. Never seen it do damage like this but those were starting well below the top of the pressure curve and it's more of a "whoa!" event when you touch it off. As you say, "straws." :) |
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I handload but not for 5.56. Not up with all the powders that would be used with it. As a refresher, here's the data from a pull & weigh that Buffman did for his chrono video year & a half ago; without having to shoot them it would be interesting if someone had a scale & weighed some of the loaded rounds. Don't know the powder type; 27.3gr of "something" but it shot real well back then (note the Lot #). https://i.imgur.com/5Rt3qDn.jpg I have in a handful of instances over the years seen where insufficient tension on the case neck of a round further down in a magazine will cause it to seat further, compressing the powder load, and being "hotter" when it comes time for it to be shot. Never seen it do damage like this but those were starting well below the top of the pressure curve and it's more of a "whoa!" event when you touch it off. As you say, "straws." :) |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - (Official) Hornady Frontier - Kabooms, Issues, Info, and Data Thread (List Updated 10/26) (Page 2 of 4)
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