AR Sponsor
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - BS Busters 001 (Page 2 of 3)
|
I like this thread.
I haven't gotten my reloading equipment set up yet, (need to- shooting Grendel ain't cheap) but I want to see someone show a step-by-step proving that steel-case can be reloaded, and even reformed. I hear it all the time "steel case ammo is impossible to reload" |
|
Quoted:
Here is an excellent picture from Ned Christiansen showing why an OOB firing is next to impossible with an AR-15. In the picture below, the bolt is completely locked in battery, but the bolt carrier has not quite yet fully seated. You can clearly see in the picture that the firing pin is not even close to coming into contact with the primer. In Ned Christiansen's own words, the "firing pin is blocked from contacting the primer by a step in the carrier that stops the firing pin's flange. Again–– bolt is completely locked and FP cannot touch the primer. Misses it by a long shot, by design." http://www.box.net/shared/static/6epemebg1j.jpg Nice picture, but I disagree. The firing pin on the M16 / AR15 works on inertia. That's why when you chamber a round then remove the same round you have a dent on the primer. CCI has military primers which are harder that will prevent slam fires. An OOB is possible if the hammer can strike the firing pin, before the bolt is locked. Why did this gun explode? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWygoxV_ApM&feature=player_embedded |
|
that gun exploded because the shooter fired a "pop and no kick" into the bore. Interestingly it didn't enter far enough to allow the next round to properly seat. After much pounding of the forward assist (driving the obstruction deeply into the rifling) he fired a round into the obstruction. Under these conditions it's just as likely to throw two rounds down range as it is to have a catastrophic failure (depending on the pressure of the reloads, outside temperature, alignment of the planets and whether he prays to the right GOD.)
Bore obstructions are not your friend. If you need to use the forward assist after a "pop and no kick", then something is WRONG! If you get two failure to fires in a row, examine the brass, pull the BCG and look at the bore. If you're in a firefight and this happens then fight your way to cover with your secondary. Your primary is now down for the count. |
|
Quoted:
that gun exploded because the shooter fired a "pop and no kick". No, I didn't see that. At 29 sec point he fired his last round then dropped the mag, then he had issues chambering the new round from the fresh mag. I didn't hear an off sound from a misfire. I believe either the chamber was full of crap or the new chambered round was not made right and didn't fully enter the chamber. By messing with the FA he got the BCG at the right spot that the trigger would release the hammer. Hammer strikes the pin, but the round was not totally in the chamber. The ass end of the cartridge blew apart and went down the magazine. That Pmag shreaded like plastic would. This is what I believe happened with this kid. Prove what I say?? It's easy. Grab your AR15 and chamber an empty round. Now pull the charging handle back 1/2 inch, then squeeze the trigger. Mine goes click, and yours will too. |
|
Quoted:
I like this thread. I haven't gotten my reloading equipment set up yet, (need to- shooting Grendel ain't cheap) but I want to see someone show a step-by-step proving that steel-case can be reloaded, and even reformed. I hear it all the time "steel case ammo is impossible to reload" I have some steel sase .45 ACP that I have reloaded many times. Works just like steel. 
There's one in the middle, between a brass case and a steel case. It was manufactured for WWII. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Here is an excellent picture from Ned Christiansen showing why an OOB firing is next to impossible with an AR-15. In the picture below, the bolt is completely locked in battery, but the bolt carrier has not quite yet fully seated. You can clearly see in the picture that the firing pin is not even close to coming into contact with the primer. In Ned Christiansen's own words, the "firing pin is blocked from contacting the primer by a step in the carrier that stops the firing pin's flange. Again–– bolt is completely locked and FP cannot touch the primer. Misses it by a long shot, by design." 
Nice picture, but I disagree . . . An OOB is possible if the hammer can strike the firing pin, before the bolt is locked. 
Serioulsy, do you really think that you know more about the functioning of an AR-15 than Ned Christiansen? |
|
Quoted:
By messing with the FA he got the BCG at the right spot that the trigger would release the hammer. Hammer strikes the pin, but the round was not totally in the chamber. The ass end of the cartridge blew apart . . . Prove what I say?? It's easy. Grab your AR15 and chamber an empty round. Now pull the charging handle back 1/2 inch, then squeeze the trigger. Mine goes click, and yours will too. Yet another example of people posting BS in a technical thread without the slightest bit of factual data to support what they are saying. A cartridge in an AR-15 doesn’t fire simply because you can “squeeze the trigger and hear a click.” The cartridge fires when the firing pin strikes the primer with enough force to ignite it. You can “pull the charging handle back 1/2 inch, then squeeze the trigger” all day long and the cartridge is not going to fire BECAUSE THE FIRING PIN CAN NOT PHYSICALLY COME INTO CONTACT WITH THE PRIMER AT THAT POINT. The picture below shows the bolt in the position it would be in if you had pulled back on the charging handle, not even “1/2 an inch”, but only 1/4 of an inch. The firing pin has been pushed as far forward as it will go and you can clearly see that THE FIRING PIN DOES NOT EVEN PROTRODE FROM THE FIRING PIN HOLE AT THIS POINT, let alone protrude far enough forward that it would be able to effectively strike the primer. The firing pin is blocked from moving any farther forward. As I quoted Ned Christansen previously, the "firing pin is blocked from contacting the primer by a step in the carrier that stops the firing pin's flange. Again–– bolt is completely locked and FP cannot touch the primer. Misses it by a long shot, by design." 
..... |
|
Molon,
Geeze, this is the internet after all. How dare you post factual information! What are you thinking? Thanx, Russ P.S. Thanks for all the great posts. It's a large amount of very useful data. I do have one complaint however, having thrown away all my 3 shot official screamer groups all I'm left with is a collection of fairly average 10 shot groups and a much depleted bullet supply, thanks for nothing, lol. |
|
I recall a member posted his kb here and the oob crowd quickly descended on it ignoring all facts and parroting oob back and forth to each other. Some folks are just infatuated with their ignorance I guess.
Anyway, excellent thread and thanks for taking the time. |
|
Quoted:
Molon, Geeze, this is the internet after all. . Yep this sizes it up pretty well. After studing the BCG and upper receiver I stand corrected. This is my little test. For those that are wondering why the AR15 can’t fire out of battery. Take your BCG out. Compress the bolt (locked position, in battery). Depress the fireing pin from the back. You will notice that fireing pin is sticking out of the fireing pin hole. Extend the bolt (forward, this is the unlock position, out of battery). Depress the fireing pin from the back. You will notice the fireing pin isn’t sticking out of the fireing pin hole. If the fireing pin can’t strike the primer that means the round won’t go off. Pay attention to the upper receiver as you do this test. The bolt is prevented from turning by the upper receiver until the carrier reaches its home position. This is the exact reason an out of battery is not possible under a properly made weapon. 
  molon
|
|
There was a post a few years back where a person had an out of battery from a piece of primer metal stuck to the bolt face.
Then theres always the warning about assembly without the cam pin. Allows the fring pin to reach the primer without rotating the bolt. Not likely to happen though. |
|
Quoted: I'd like to know what happened to that kids AR15 in that youtube video. It sure looked like a case head seperation to me. The way it blew down the magazine well.......... The brass failed for whatever reason, so i'd guess it was an overcharged round. The brass failed to contain the excess pressure, so that excess pressure then blows into the chamber, against the bolt, out the upper, down the magwell, etc etc. Most reloaders who use range pickup brass bank on necks splitting before the brass gets weak enough that case head separations happen. I've had a case head separation incident myself, and it was fairly benign. I noticed more smoke than usual, and found that the case split in two after firing. I was also using a suppressor and 75 gr loads, shooting in a desert in Oregon, and i suspect that the increased port pressure of the suppressor resulted in more stress on the brass (extraction when the chamber is still under pressure)  |
|
Molon, great topic. As always very informative, and backed up by undeniable fact. In your opinion, what would it take to get a .224 bullet lodged in a .556 barrel?
I know that's a generic question as all barrels and ammo combination can be different, but for the sake of argument a common commercial barrel like a 16 inch chrome lined 1 in 9 firing commercial wal mart remington .223? I personally just don't see a lodged bullet in that scenario. I can imagine only 2 ways a lodged bullet would occur. 1, handloads. 2, underpowered factory ammo (wolf). The latter happened to me with a J&T 20 inch A2 stainless upper shooting 55 gr laquer cased wolf. In no way am I questioning, challenging, or trying to undermine you. You're posts are some of the most valuable on the forum and I respect them. I'd be willing to bet this is yet another internet problem with the AR platform, and I'm willing to give it the mythbuster try to make it happen experiment. |
|
Quoted: A primer has already put a 115gr FMJ projectile over half an inch into my XD-9's barrel. What kind of primer did you use Molon? That's a completely different scenario, involving a pistol primer, pistol projectile, and pistol sized brass in a pistol. Like someone earlier said, rifle brass probably gives the primer enough room to expand so that there isn't enough force to budge a projectile. I've reproduced this scenario just to confirm my earlier observation. First time I fired a cartridge with no powder (by accident... first error in over 10K reloaded rounds!) I was using Wolf SRM primers with a 75 gr projectile. The primer bulged out strangely, and all i heard was a "click" Second time I reproduced this scenario on purpose with a CCI #41 primer, and a Hornady 55gr FMJ BT projectile. Also a "click" and primer protrusion wasn't noticeable with the bare eye. Both cartridges were not crimped. |
|
Nice thread dude...seriously...I handload on occasion and I will only do it under the strictest of conditions. I try to eliminate any kind of scenario where I can get into a cross contaminationing of powders or primers. But mostly I try to make sure I am wide awake and there are no distractions... Someone earlier in the thread made mention of case head seperation and such. There are signs of impending doom on case failure but sometimes these signs arent always evident. Luckily for me I have only suffered split necks and split casings and not a head seperation. I believe a head seperation could be catostrophic. If my brass starts showing a defined 'stretched' or shiny look near the case head I chuck it. It just ain't worth the risk to me whether it is real or just perceived.
Anyway, I am glad I did stop to read this one. I have noticed that the firing pin isn't long enough for proper bolt penetration before but never really thought about the effects of it. Now it totally makes sense. Good read and nicely done...just wish information could pass without everyone bitching about it. On a side note however, a 209 black powder shotgun primer fired through an empty casing with a ping-pong ball glued on top, will easily propel that ping-pong ball a good 60 feet out of a 37mm launcher Albeit fun as hell it has no relavence to anything in the world including this thread!
Thanks! |
|
Quoted: Quoted: Molon -timely as well, as I was just reading about gyroscopic stability/lethality this evening; do you happen to know the gyroscopic stability of the 1:7/75 gr. combination. Approximately 1.6. Interestingly close to the 1.4 Sg of the 1:12/55gr. ("The AR-15/M16"; D.Long, 1985, pg. 150). Thank you. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Molon -timely as well, as I was just reading about gyroscopic stability/lethality this evening; do you happen to know the gyroscopic stability of the 1:7/75 gr. combination. Approximately 1.6. Interestingly close to the 1.4 Sg of the 1:12/55gr. ("The AR-15/M16"; D.Long, 1985, pg. 150). Thank you. You might also be interested in knowing that M855 from a 1:9" twist has a GSF of approximatley 1.3, while M856 from a 1:7" twist has a GSF of just above 1. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
You would have to use every possible combination of case, primer, bullet, and crimp to prove anything. All you proved was that the conclusion you sought happened one time with your one particular handload. The point of this thread; you didn't "get it." I'm not sure you understand 'proof'. Reading comprehension, you lack it. Show us exactly where the word "proof" appears anywhere in my original post. Molon, I think he's trying to say that different combo's of components can produce different amounts of pressure, thus proving that while your specific combo may NOT have lodged a bullet in the bore, another combo MAY. Let me state I value your posts, but I also understand his position on this. Perhaps another example(I only load .308 match, but lots and lots of it) would be .308 brass. Its all VERY different, and while 43.5 grains of varget might be Ok with winchester cases and a 178 AMAX, that same load but using Lake City Longe Range brass may provide high pressure.over pressure signs. Disclaimer: I used one of my loads for this example. Please, always follow your reloading books, I'm simply offering an opinion on Molon's results. Don't go blowin' yerself up! |
|
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Molon -timely as well, as I was just reading about gyroscopic stability/lethality this evening; do you happen to know the gyroscopic stability of the 1:7/75 gr. combination. Approximately 1.6. Interestingly close to the 1.4 Sg of the 1:12/55gr. ("The AR-15/M16"; D.Long, 1985, pg. 150). Thank you. You might also be interested in knowing that M855 from a 1:9" twist has a GSF of approximatley 1.3, while M856 from a 1:7" twist has a GSF of just above 1. I see the pattern. Thanks for the info, interesting is is. |
|
Quoted:
Molon, why is the 1:7 the choice of all the "top tier" makers as well as the military, over the 1:9? M856 from a 1:7" twist has a GSF of just above 1.
Less than 1 = bullet not stable. The ability to shoot that round is why the military chose 1:7. The "top tier" makers merely copied the military. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Molon, why is the 1:7 the choice of all the "top tier" makers as well as the military, over the 1:9? M856 from a 1:7" twist has a GSF of just above 1.
Less than 1 = bullet not stable. The ability to shoot that round is why the military chose 1:7. The "top tier" makers merely copied the military. The M856 is a heavier round correct. I thought 1:7 was chosen because it stabilizes heavier weights such as 77gr |
|
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Molon, why is the 1:7 the choice of all the "top tier" makers as well as the military, over the 1:9? M856 from a 1:7" twist has a GSF of just above 1. Less than 1 = bullet not stable. The ability to shoot that round is why the military chose 1:7. The "top tier" makers merely copied the military. The M856 is a heavier round correct. I thought 1:7 was chosen because it stabilizes heavier weights such as 77gr The M856 is a tracer round. It's a long projectile, which is what matters when considering stability more than the weight. |
|
Quoted:
A barrel obstruction will cause your hand guard and barrel to split. The muzzle could also have split or there could be a hole out the side. A kaboom where you see debris flying down the magazine or having the receiver split is a gun firing out of battery, or an over pressured unsafe handload. Maybe not to many handgunners here, but I stuck a bullet with a 500 S&W magnum once. Reloaded cartridge with 39gns of Hodgen H110 using a 350 gn Hornady HP. I was using Federal LP magnum primers. In my case the cartridges fired normally in warm weather but when the temp dropped I was getting hangfires, which got to a point of a main powder charge not igniting properly causing a stuck bullet. My solution was to up the temp and use Large RIFLE primers. No more gremlins. I agree with Molon. I don't think a bullet can move far enough to stick a bullet without some powder charge to help it along. A sure sign of no powder is the primer backing out.  Nevermind OOB imposdsibility already covered above. 
But i will say a primer only round may be able to move a round depending on how tight the round is seated into the case - unless your test round was created loose with this in mind to give it the best chance of occuring? |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - BS Busters 001 (Page 2 of 3)
AR Sponsor