What can you do with an expensive $1k, $2k, etc. AR that you can't do with your $600-$800 AR?  

Is it a matter of ergonomics, accuracy, reliability, durability, etc...?  

The reason I ask is because I've got 2 complete lowers and I'm not sure what I'm going to do upper-wise.  I'm leaning toward more budget builds into just standard carbines...because I have a bunch and love them.  Plus the more expensive AR's I've got I'm just as accurate with.  

Just curious why the more pricey route is worth it to you?

Thanks

-Emt1581

Reliability and accuracy, mainly reliability.

Try a pistol for variety...
 

With the plethora of up-to-spec parts on the market and the ease of actually building an AR, I don't believe this is true in the least.
It isn't some super complex machine, it is a couple pieces of metal threaded onto each other, torqued and your done. As long as the individual parts are good and you aren't completely unaware of how to build the rifle, you aren't going to get a gun that is twice as reliable if you spend twice as much on it.
You can build an AR with the same parts you would find in a high end factory build for much less, and if you trust the person who physically assembled it, then you should have no worries.
If you are paying much over a grand for just a rifle, no optics or accessories, you are likely paying for the name.

People pay for names, looks and handguards made entirely of mounting surface that have nothing mounted on them. Nothing wrong with it but it is what it is.

This is what I've always subscribed to.  This is why I'm curious what proof is out there to the contrary.

-Emt1581

I look at it this way

Look at stripped lowers across the board

You can find them for 50-60 bucks (not poly) with no name or at least a well not heard company

You can buy a Mega (do own mainly because that's what I could get) which goes for $125

Yet both do the same job and if I remember correctly (please correct if wrong) there is a handful of companies that actually make them

Cant tell me there is no buying the name

Same goes for BCGs Same specs BCM will always be higher priced.

The one thing I don't know but is probably true is a barrel alone. I am assuming your higher priced barrels (ie Noveskes) are actually taking the time for QC and everything is beyond specs vs a $90 Mossberg barrel yet I have no comparison data at all.

I have in the past, and recently for my 16 year old nephew, built an AR out of inexpensive parts and chrome moly barrel. Many of them exhibited surprising levels of accuracy. Creating a "brand" requires a significant investment and that cost is always incorporated in the pricing.

The top three parts that you would want to "spend the money" on would be on the Barrel, BCG, and Trigger. Those should be of high quality and from reliable sources (not getting items just because of brands). $200+ rails and other attachments that add no real improvements on accuracy, performance, and/or reliability would be last things on my list to spend the most money on.

There is a point of diminishing returns like there is on everything in life...

It's up to the individual to decide at what price point that is.

^this^

Now the trigger...That's something I've never spend the big money on but have always been curious about.  I don't know what a high-dollar trigger is like but I'd love to give one a try.  Maybe I'll drop one in one of the lowers in the future.

Thanks

-Emt1581

Except the ones OP is talking about are budget guns using mediocre parts.  My go to gun is a parts build as is my in progress SBR, but I used high quality parts.  

Ask anyone who has been to a high round count carbine class about DPMS rifles when used alongside Colt, Bravo Co, DD.

To me it depends how much better the 3k gun vs 2k gun is, cause if both are just as reliable/durable as each other but the 3k gun shoots .50 at 100 yards vs .55 for the 2k gun then its a waste of money imo to spend that extra 1k. Now if the 3k gun is more reliable/durable than the 2k gun, but a lil less accurate then you beat I'll spend the extra cash for that reliability/durability.

Absolutely.

It depends on what the goal of the individual is...

I know you said you were talking about HD guns but lets say someone was builing a precision gun here.  The .50 group vs the .55 group might be worth it to certain people.  It really just depends.

On the other hand I would pay more for a Noveske barrel because I know what I'm going to be getting with it just as I would pay more for a BCM rifle because in my experience I know it's going to work without question.

Agreed just not worth it to me on a HD gun.

Pretty much this. For a rifle you're gonna run hard, you want the bcg and barrel MPI'd. Trigger honestly im fine with a mil trigger. I dont believe you need a $250 trigger to hit MOA/sub-MOA if you take your time and practice regularly. a good LPK would be a good investment as well. Everything else really isnt crucial. All uppers, lowers, stocks, blah blah arent going to make you a better shooter. I would stay away from poly receivers. Thats just me though.

To be honest, while I've never owned one, I've read tons of problems with DPMS rifles.  So if possible, sub another brand in there...Bushmaster maybe?  Mediocre ...yes?  

Thanks

-Emt1581

well im not saying that a mil-spec trigger isnt bad nor is a high price geissele trigger is good but I would take a good trigger over a DD Lite rail or Magpul UBR.

From being a buyer, and a seller, it seems that the price point is about $1000.  A little more or a little less depending on deals, and location.

Colt, DD, BCM, Spike's, LMT, Troy.  Once you get past that price point, you're looking at things beyond a basic rifle and into the cool stuff that comes on them, handguard, stocks, sights, etc, etc, etc... OR you're looking at the high priced almost boutique type rifles.  The Knights, Noveskes, Wilson Combat, etc.

When I worked as the armorer in the store I was at, I never had to do an actual repair on those brands I listed unless it was because of something that wasn't the gun's fault.  By that I mean the PD that at some point replaced the H or heavier buffer with a standard in a 6933 causing the bolt to come back harder and faster putting more wear on the disconector.   A lot of elective upgrades or changes, but no broken pins,  broken lugs, buffers slamming into the retainer pin bending it, loose barrels from the factory, carrier keys getting hit by the grossly off centered gas tube,  factory misaligned gas blocks, broken extractors, ann extractor without the claw at the end at all, and it made it through the factory that way as it was finished, not bare steel, crap like that... all of those I've acctually seen.  But not on those brands I've mentioned.

As I said I have had to do things like maintenance that should have been done by the operator.  Mostly springs.  They do wear out eventuallly.

There are other brands that seem good too, but I just haven't seen many with either over 10k through them, or that have broken in 400, so I don't really know for sure either way... SIG and S&W for instance.  They do seem like great guns though, I just haven't seen enough handle hard use to say for sure.

Someone said that as long as you use good parts and put them together properly the gun will be the same as any other... that's true, but also where the cheaper companies fail.
Trigger and hammer pins that are fragile and break easily.  Triggers that don't fit into lowers because they are too wide. bolt carriers that are too short and are not even close to flush with the upper receiver when in battery. Gas pots that are somewhere around .090 to even biger .1 to get them to work. Chambers that are too tight (diamter), or ones that fail a .223 headspace check.

A barrel maker that had it's gas ports around .093in, AND off centered.  Extension lugs that had the spaces too small, plus being just enough off center that a lot of bolts would get stuck on them.
Charging handles that had the angle on the lever too steep so that they wouldn't latch unless you held them open and pushed it forward... so that if you charged the rifle and let it go, like you're supposed to, it wouldn't latch..

This

Ive been curious about this as well. I havent really had the chance to shoot anything other than DD and Colt AR's so Im in the dark as to how the lower priced weapons compare when ran hard. Are the parts of the lower end rifles really that shitty?

Depends on the brand and sometimes the individual rifle.

Parts aren't always parts.  A lot has to do with assembly, testing and quality control.

Thats what I figured. I currently have a DD V1 and wanted to pick up a cheaper rifle to run some tests and see what kind of gaps in performance (if any) I can expect from the price differences.

Pick up a Palmetto or a Spikes...Both can be found for under $800.

Just stay away from Palmetto's PTAC line.  I would stick to their premium line.  They did have some assembly issues awhile back but not sure if that's still an issue.

I'll do that. Thanks.

Good triggers are worth every penny if you want to remove the trigger as a factor that could degrade your shooting ability. Is it necessary to shoot an AR? No. Is it necessary to maximize the ability of the rifle and remove yourself from the equation insofar as reducing the ability of the rifle? Yes. If you wanna shoot really fast, or really long range, Geissele makes a trigger for you.

Unicorn's post on page 1 pretty much spelled out what is the reality of high vs. low end ARs.
I will say that a Yugo will get you from "Point A" to "Point B " just as a Rolls will. However, if you think the quality, reliability, durability and CS of both is the same then you are delusional.
Other than that,

You will always pay more for the in demand brand names but at the same time in almost all cases -


 

This..^  ..I don't have a lot of experience with AR-15s.  I bought a Colt.  Not saying it's the best but I decided to spend money on a trusted brand.  Maybe I was paying for a brand name but it's always been my experience, in most cases, that you do in fact get what you pay for.  Buy a Weedeater brand weed eater from Wally World, fight with it, throw it in the trash, then go buy a Stihl....see which one serves you better for longer.  Those name brands got to be popular and have been around for years for a reason.  I will say the "you get what you pay for" is not AS true anymore as it used to be since everyone is cutting costs to stay competitive in today's marketplace but with most things it's still true.

I see the phrase "buy once, cry once" on here a lot.  I think we can all admit that we spend a lot of money trying to "save money."  I don't know how many things I have bought in my life because I wanted something but I didn't want to spend a lot of money so I bought the cheaper one...only to end up not being satisfied and spending the money for what I wanted in the first place.  I believe it's the "I want it and I want it now" attitude that makes us do that.  I have bought cheap vacuum cleaners, and ended up with a Dyson that I love.  I have bought cheap lawn mowers and ended up with a John Deere.  Cheap weed eaters and ended up with a Stihl.  Of course there's limits....you can't just go buy the most expensive thing you can find.  I didn't get the most expensive Stihl weed eater or the most expensive JD with all the options.  Sometimes you are paying for the options that come with it and maybe you don't need those.  But to pay more for a quality name brand product and choose the options you want makes sense to me.

Nailed it.

Turns out Geissele is 30-45min from my house.  I wonder if they have a show room that I could go and test them out to see if they are worth the $200-$400?

-Emt1581

I went there a few months back. No show room but they will let you fondle some stuff and likely gift you a hat and some stickers. Very nice folks!

Oh ok, well I just shot them an email and asked about a showroom/testing.  And I asked if they'd be ok with me bringing one of my finished lowers to do a side by side test.

I mean looking at the triggers they seem slightly different than the standard LPK trigger but having no experience I have no clue what those tiny differences mean in regard to the shooting experience overall.  Also I don't understand how they are "adjustable"...do you need to buy a spring for each weight and THAT is the adjustment?

Thanks

-Emt1581

Just like most things in life, people like to reward themselves with nice shit. A lot of times it's a bit overkill, but there's still pride of ownership. You may take your Ducati Superleggera to the track and push it to it's limits or you may ride it around town like a scooter, either way, the Ducati is worth it to both riders. But if you just need to get around town the scooter will surely get the job done.

Don't do it......it will "ruin" you for life..............

The first thing you must take into consideration is accuracy WILL be better. A lot of the time these high end guns are held to a higher standard in tolerance for the machined parts. When the average cheap brand is .01 in tolerance the high end guns will hold .002. In my mind tighter tolerance is going to mean tighter groups and better accuracy. Also paying for the high end guns it will include all of the best stuff like stocks handgaurds billet receivers barrel and muzzle device. If you buy a cheap AR and add accessories down the road it will average out to the cost if a high end gun. One stop one shop

Reliability.. SHTF and you want reliable over 'pretty'.

Since added a light and removed the LMT rear, added KAC micro-600 rear flip, and single point sling..

Yea but how much better accuracy are we talking, and is it for a precision gun or SHTF gun?

 

I just watched two Windoms take a dump In a class. I hate bushmaster DPMS, RRA, Olympic, CMMG , and now Windom, I have seen and worked on to many of them to trust them at all... I have only ever seen minor issues with PSA, Spikes, Bravo, DD, S&W, Colt, or even Stag. Why buy any of the first group when you can buy some in the second group for less money. You can build a PSA premium for around $650 or even pick up an S&W for $650 to 800..

I know I put down some of the fanboys favorites and YMMV, but this is my experience building repairing  and shooting all the above.

I have a guy coming by later who needs his bolt release replaced, It broke this morning at the range, it was CMMG LPK..

My 1:7 ptac upper looks good, it was the $290 complete upper.  Haven't had a chance to shoot it yet, tho.



The PTAC Lower Parts Kits seem pretty good, though.  I've used 3 or 4 of them already.



 

My first AR-15 was a $850 Double Star Star-15 fullsize rifle. Never had any problems with it. Second AR-15 was a Del Ton Echo 316 MOE carbine. That one cost $769. Then I decided I wanted to have a piston AR-15 so I spent $1500 on a Ruger SR556. I sold all those rifles for profit during the panic, and though the market wouldn't settle down for the chance for me to get into another AR-15 for less than $1000. Last December I purchased my Armalite M15A4 carbine for $819 on clearance from my local dealer. My boss bought components and built his PSA/Del Ton AR-15 carbine for $650. Next week I'll see the rest of my parts for my Del Ton/Troy Industries build...

If I can get more bang for the dollar I will. But I think most people are like that. I was going to just buy a Colt MOE for $1100 from my local dealer (waited too long, and he sold out), but after doing some research the rifle I'm going to to be building is going to come in less than $1000, and have all the stuff I want on the gun already.

If you build, and use good components you shouldn't have any issues. Plus I think you'll have more of a personal connection with the gun since it's something that you made.

The first rifle I built I had the same questions. I wanted a reliable, accurate SHTF go to rifle.

I bought an upper with a CHF FN barrel. I added an LMT BCG, but When I built my lower I decided to stay with the Mil Spec trigger because it was so damn smooth (I just got lucky). I may dump an ALG in it though. This particular rifle is still my SHTF and I want o stick to a single stage trigger.

If I scope a rifle it gets a quality trigger.

Consider the intended use and then choose barrel, BCG and trigger accordingly.

Most of the above are good points, I see that the premium AR's also have an upscale finish- Cerakote, NiB or whatnot.  I DO think something of that nature is worth the extra money.

I'm gonna have to parrot this guy. The rest is marketing and hype.

have both and every rifle I have is 100% otherwise why keep it?  My budget builds are every bit as accurate, reliable and nice as my expensive buys.  Guys saying this isn't possible just haven't a clue what they are talking about....period

I've learned the lesson one too many times. You get what you pay for. My $600 bushy ORC worked great...for a $600 entry level rifle. It worked but it had its issues. It did all you can really ask of a $600 rifle. My BCM also does what I expect of it for $1300 rifle. It's worked every time so far. My mega build ran me $1800 and it does the same thing my BCM does, it works. Only thing is, it looks a lot better doing it. It also has some extra features but they're just "extras". Ambi features and such.

If you can't or don't understand what makes a BCM cost $1000 and a Bushmaster cost $600 then there is no point in explaining.


I do have a funny story though. It really is funny. Last summer, I took a Suarez class and on the very first day, people had rifles going down left and right. I saw so many cheap rifles, I was wondering how and why some of these people even signed up for this class. It's almost as if they got in through Groupon or something.

Anyway, through the two days and 500 rounds, there was only 3 of us who didn't have there rifles fail left and right all throughout both days. I had a BCM, another guy had a Colt and the other guy had an Arsenal AK.


For the record, I am very much into SHTF. When it does, I don't want to be questioning the reliability and durability of my rifles. I like knowing my rifles are made with high quality parts and have been tested and inspected the right way before they ever left the factory.

In my very next post, I am going to post something that may or may not open the eyes of some of you.

I think the two big parts of saving money and still getting a quality rifle are:  

1.  Ensuring proper assembly.  Since I always assemble my own rifles I make sure that each and every part has a proper fit, finish, and function.  That is something that any major manufacturer has a problem with simply as part of a cost effective assembly line manufacturing process.  In my opinion this is the major reason for most of the complaints expressed here on ARFCOM.  By doing this by myself I get to know the inner working of each of my rifles and have an intimate understanding of any issues and peculiarities of each part and of the overall rifle and I can almost always correct an issue before ever putting a round in the rifle.

2.  Getting proper tolerance and materials parts.  The best example of this that I can think of are the 8620 steel bolts that many people have problems with.  If you cheap out on materials or accept shitty tolerances then you invite problems.  While buying "milspec" parts doesn't guarantee anything it should, with proper assembly and testing, make any rifle that I build at least as good as anything out of a manufacturer that adheres to the milspec (i.e. Colt).  Indeed the only real issues that I have bumped into are when I have varied into non-standard configurations, like when I built my first 14.5" midlength and had reliability issues for the first few hundred rounds...

(I had also bought one of the 8620 bolts as a spare.  That was stupid since while swapping bcg's around to use a 22 conversion I lost track of it.  I wish I could figure out which one it is and round file it...)

If someone has any mechanical ability and any desire to really know their weapon then I highly recommend they assemble their own.

Just my .02 on how to get the most bang for the buck...