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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - CMMG 10 mm (Page 2 of 2)
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So are my eyes correct in seeing that the only stripped lowers they sell are for the .45 and 9mm? I was considering building a 10mm "other" for my ban state, but it seems the 10mm has its own lower. |
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Does anyone with a 10mm mind loaning me their BCG???? I'd like to try something My DI45 barrels are interchangeable with a 45 Guard.....(wonder how that happened) LOL and I'd like to try the bolt with one of my 10mm barrels to see if my feed cone design solves the issue of case belling like it did for my DI.....If so call me at the shop.....or if you are near Macon GA and willing to road trip, we'll make a barrel while you are here and test my hypothesis......and you get to keep the barrel... I also have a Guard lower that I made a mag catch for to get the 10mm mag to the proper height....Prefer doing it this way as I REALLY done't need another 10mm I would like to test it on the ANGSTADT and Black Creek Precision lowers I have 10mm DI uppers on currently.
Macon Armory Shop number is 478 474-2990 best time to call is between 9 and 11 AM when I am shipping orders and at my desk...... Let me hear from you!!!!! Rudy |
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So are my eyes correct in seeing that the only stripped lowers they sell are for the .45 and 9mm? I was considering building a 10mm "other" for my ban state, but it seems the 10mm has its own lower. Rudy |
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So a member here generously loaned me his Banshee RDB bolt (I'll let him identify himself if he chooses to).....came in the mail yesterday.....so this morning I made a test barrel using the same chamber and feed cone I use for DI 10mm. Here is the result. I ran three or four mags to ensure that it was feeding reliably.....and then ran some Sig Elite 180 grain flatpoint. Chased the brass ... After this......I fired a couple of rounds I have a friend load.....proof rounds of a sort they flatten primers ....Intentionally.....part of our testing.....still no case bell.https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/163655/IMG_1788_JPG-1171121.jpg This is a close up of the fired Sig brass..... https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/163655/IMG_1794_JPG-1171122.jpg And this is the "proof load" shown next to a parallel so you can get an accurate look at the lack of case deformation. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/163655/IMG_1793_JPG-1171124.jpg This last one is just showing the flattened primer as an indication of pressure. I am confident I can solve the issue of case belling by making a replacement barrel....or I'd be happy to offer my consulting services to CMMG...... I did replace the Banshee ejector with a standard AR ejector and one of my extractors......they were contributing to the failure to feed issues I was having on my initial feed tests on the bench. once replaced it fed no problem into my chamber design. Lower used was an Angstadt Arms....I'll try it on the new Black Creek Precision large frame I have monday before I ship the bolt back....and I will try and puck up some underwood and/or Buffalo Bore Monday..... I wish you luck on making replacement barrels. I don't know if you've read my posts on theories as to why the ejector springs fail so fast on the CMMG RDB design. I think it may have something to do with how they headspace the barrels. If you take a live round or dummy round for that matter, chamber it then get a rod and push down on the round you can feel and see it move at least a mm or so. I think that is causing a lot of shock to the ejector spring. I have (2) 9mm CMMG RDB BCG/BBL combos and (1) .40SW and they all do that. I had someone make me a custom barrel and tighten up on the headspacing but haven't had time to shoot it much to see it resolves the issue. |
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amphibian.....thanks for the heads up on your friend....let him know I have his info , I just don't like to publish things like that without permission.
I know with my DI barrels , and the one I made for the test....I go with zero headspace +.003/.005 and I still have the original spring in the original upper going strong after about 40,000 rounds over the last few years.........guess I'm gonna have to breakdown and buy a bolt carrier group as soon as they are available for testing. Honestly , DI is much more pleasant to shoot then the RDB blowback. While the difference isn't as noticeable with DI45 and 45 Guard.....It was significant with with the 10mm. The RDB was sharper with the added mass in the carrier. Holler at me if you have issues with the replacement barrel, and I do have replacement extractors......I wasn't real impressed with the one in the bolt your friend sent.....I teplaced it with one of mine and the standard ejector....I'll call him monday and be happy to swap back if he likes.....but after seeing the bolt and what they did.....I know what they were thinking....I had the same issues with DI 10mm years ago (and considered their solution) until I figured out exactly what the issue was and developed the current chamber design I am using. Once I hit on that breakthrough all the other issues solved themselves..... I wasn't aware of the ejector spring issue......just don't have the time I used to have to be online........feel like my foot is nailed to the shop floor sometimes.....as I used to say when I built engines and my dad owned the shop...."I can't be fired, slaves are sold" ![]()
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Hi Rudy,
I'm glad the BCG worked with your barrel, and no belling! I'll definitely use the 10mm BCG with your barrel, so no problem to leave your parts in the bolt. I also got the mag well, mags, mag loader today; thanks for the quick shipping and extra stuff. I told Robert (amphibian) you and him should work together on this stuff... together you'd solve all the world's DI and RDB problems! Thanks again, Justin |
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amphibian.....thanks for the heads up on your friend....let him know I have his info , I just don't like to publish things like that without permission. I know with my DI barrels , and the one I made for the test....I go with zero headspace +.003/.005 and I still have the original spring in the original upper going strong after about 40,000 rounds over the last few years.........guess I'm gonna have to breakdown and buy a bolt carrier group as soon as they are available for testing. Honestly , DI is much more pleasant to shoot then the RDB blowback. While the difference isn't as noticeable with DI45 and 45 Guard.....It was significant with with the 10mm. The RDB was sharper with the added mass in the carrier. Holler at me if you have issues with the replacement barrel, and I do have replacement extractors......I wasn't real impressed with the one in the bolt your friend sent.....I teplaced it with one of mine and the standard ejector....I'll call him monday and be happy to swap back if he likes.....but after seeing the bolt and what they did.....I know what they were thinking....I had the same issues with DI 10mm years ago (and considered their solution) until I figured out exactly what the issue was and developed the current chamber design I am using. Once I hit on that breakthrough all the other issues solved themselves..... I wasn't aware of the ejector spring issue......just don't have the time I used to have to be online........feel like my foot is nailed to the shop floor sometimes.....as I used to say when I built engines and my dad owned the shop...."I can't be fired, slaves are sold" ![]() ![]() I know your setup or any other standard gas operated setup won't have these ejector spring issues since the bolt is truly locked which is not the case with the RDB. You don't have to sell me on the 45 gas operated setup either. I know how smooth it is. I had one by RMW a long time ago. The issue is I want to run 9mm. I've never said the CMMG RDB was perfect. I've done a lot of tinkering to get mine to the point I think it surpasses the MP5 but in order to do so I had to resort to a custom modified 5.45x39 bolt and a fixed ejector. The standard 9mm RDB bolt angles are too aggressive making it snappier than it needs to be but I presume CMMG did that on purpose to give it a larger operating window. I have all this documented here:http://c3junkie.com/?page_id=538 |
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Rudy, I know your setup or any other standard gas operated setup won't have these ejector spring issues since the bolt is truly locked which is not the case with the RDB. You don't have to sell me on the 45 gas operated setup either. I know how smooth it is. I had one by RMW a long time ago. The issue is I want to run 9mm. I've never said the CMMG RDB was perfect. I've done a lot of tinkering to get mine to the point I think it surpasses the MP5 but in order to do so I had to resort to a custom modified 5.45x39 bolt and a fixed ejector. The standard 9mm RDB bolt angles are too aggressive making it snappier than it needs to be but I presume CMMG did that on purpose to give it a larger operating window. I have all this documented here:http://c3junkie.com/?page_id=538 |
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Quoted:...I wasn't aware of the ejector spring issue... If you come up with a solution for the ejector spring issue or a fixed ejector, I certainly would be in the market for it. I know plenty of others would be too. I feel it is the only thing about the Guard that keeps it from being 100%. Here's hoping ... |
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Quoted: Hi Rudy, If you come up with a solution for the ejector spring issue or a fixed ejector, I certainly would be in the market for it. I know plenty of others would be too. I feel it is the only thing about the Guard that keeps it from being 100%. Here's hoping ... As a side note I have been talking to my source for my fixed ejector setup about the possibility of getting a group buy going as well. I was planning on posting on here if he agreed to do it. I know it works awesome. Going with a fixed ejector greatly increases the operating window of this platform. The problem I see is that people would have to send in their carrier and an upper for the mod and I don't know how many people would be willing to do that. Or at least their upper for the ejector installation then go find someone local to mod the carrier to clear the ejector.....I actually cut my carrier with a Dremel cut off wheel....
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Calling CMMG today for the new ejector springs. I will certainly be testing them.
What I can't understand is that my first ejector spring lasted thousands of rounds. The only thing different is at one point I started to use a hydraulic buffer. Could that be a factor? Does the ejector spring last using a standard buffer? |
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Calling CMMG today for the new ejector springs. I will certainly be testing them. What I can't understand is that my first ejector spring lasted thousands of rounds. The only thing different is at one point I started to use a hydraulic buffer. Could that be a factor? Does the ejector spring last using a standard buffer? This is all 9mm I'm talking about...since we are in a 10mm thread... My theory on the ejector spring failure is the excessive headspacing on the barrels...on that note, maybe the bolt and extension lugs got worn on your setup which would explain why you were able to go so many rounds with your first spring. |
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Did anyone notice difficulty extracting a loaded round with the action that had ejector spring issues......what may be happening is the round is hanging the case rim on the extractor, the way they are machined leaves sharp horns at either end of the radius.....they will fire but rather than the case being seated in the pocket....it slams down on the ejector.......I encountered this early on when I tried to use 45 ACP GO and NO-GO headspace gauges with DI45.....once I tightened up the specs on chamber dimensions.....haven't had a problem since.....
The problem can be remedied by widening the groove on the extractor as well......but this only exacerbates the slamming of the ejector down by the cartridge rim.....If headspaced correctly the ejector is compressed when the bolt locks....as this bolt never actually locks with the guard/banshee this may just be a quirk that has to be lived with. Couple the lack of locking with the spring loaded bolt trying to push the bolt and carrier apart.....the pessimist in me can foresee all sorts of scenarios..... |
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Did anyone notice difficulty extracting a loaded round with the action that had ejector spring issues......what may be happening is the round is hanging the case rim on the extractor, the way they are machined leaves sharp horns at either end of the radius.....they will fire but rather than the case being seated in the pocket....it slams down on the ejector.......I encountered this early on when I tried to use 45 ACP GO and NO-GO headspace gauges with DI45.....once I tightened up the specs on chamber dimensions.....haven't had a problem since..... The problem can be remedied by widening the groove on the extractor as well......but this only exacerbates the slamming of the ejector down by the cartridge rim.....If headspaced correctly the ejector is compressed when the bolt locks....as this bolt never actually locks with the guard/banshee this may just be a quirk that has to be lived with. Couple the lack of locking with the spring loaded bolt trying to push the bolt and carrier apart.....the pessimist in me can foresee all sorts of scenarios..... The first 9mm CMMG RDB barrels that came out also had standard M4 extensions with the dual feed ramps and then they came out with RDB specific extensions with the single feed ramp since the Endomags weren't out yet. I have both barrels. I've been running my original barrel the most and with my fixed ejector setup. I know their patent talks about using the spring loaded bolt to push the bolt and carrier apart but a couple points here. I've mentioned before that I worked with another C2 a few years ago on a piston operated 9mm upper which functioned fine but would occasionally have failures to eject using the spring loaded ejector in the bolt. He didn't give up and had the fixed ejector parts made which I'm using in my CMMG RDB now. He occasionally ran into some slam fire issues with his setup and thinks that is why they added the bolt spring despite what the patent says. I tend to agree with him as I've fired a lot of rounds through my 9mm RDB now with my fixed ejector and after about the first 500 or so rounds I noticed the bolt spring is just about dead. It certainly doesn't have enough power to push the bolt and carrier apart anymore...I can literally shake the carrier and the bolt will flop around. However, I leave the almost dead spring in there to stop slamfires. It still shoots super smooth with my modified 5.45x39 bolt in there with that almost dead bolt spring. I also noticed the extractor spring is about dead also. I can shake the bolt and see the extractor flopping...almost no tension on that extractor. With my fixed ejector setup, I'm actually running the 5.45x39 extractor and it runs fine. I'm doing this all in full auto. |
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Fluted chambers I've had similar results removing the extractor from my fluted chamber MP5....still needs extractor to pivot on to successfully eject |
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What about them? Are you saying they should make their barrels like that? I don't think the RDB design needs it. I've posted before that I've removed the extractor and fired like 3 rounds before it jammed. Extractor is needed for case to pivot on not extract. I've had similar results removing the extractor from my fluted chamber MP5....still needs extractor to pivot on to successfully eject Quoted:
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Fluted chambers I've had similar results removing the extractor from my fluted chamber MP5....still needs extractor to pivot on to successfully eject As always, my ramblings are free to ignore at one's pleasure. Be well. |
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Extractor PLUS fluted chamber - per your own MP5 experience, eh? Fluted chambers probably not needed for .45 ACP; probably a good idea for 9mm; probably a better idea for 10mm. I don't have the personal pistol caliber experience that you have, but as you noted, HK uses fluted chambers plus extractors; and a hundred years ago when Auto Ordnance experimented with angular (as well as linear) delay systems, for high pressure cartridges they had to lube the cartridge to get successful extraction. I've also read that at least one range has their own post sample rental MP5s that use non-fluted chamber barrels, but they only let renters shoot the range's down-loaded 9mm ammo. As always, my ramblings are free to ignore at one's pleasure. Be well. Also, one of my friends that is also a C2 maintains the guns for a rental range. He has swapped barrels for their MP5's several times. He never uses fluted barrels to save costs and they put only factory 9mm through their guns with no issues. None of it is 'downloaded'. |
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Has anybody heard if DernHumpus has gotten his Banshee back yet. Did they "Fix" it? Did they tell him "Too bad"? Quoted:
Has anybody heard if DernHumpus has gotten his Banshee back yet. Did they "Fix" it? Did they tell him "Too bad"? Rudy, I don't think it is worthwhile for me to spend extra money on your barrel to fix CMMG's problem. I'm probably going to return the Banshee and order one of your DI uppers. See CMMG's response below. I am sorry this response has taken so long, but I wanted to ensure due diligence when it comes to the safety of our customers. I personally coordinated testing and validation with CMMG's Product Design Engineers when we received several customers who were concerned with what appears to be 10mm cases bulging. CMMG, Inc. take this very seriously as we had not experienced true case bulging in any of our durability or function testing prior to releasing this firearm. I do want to assure you that the results of the additional testing concern that your Mk10 firearm is safe and reliable. We removed the barrel in question off of your Mk10 and replaced with a new barrel when it arrived. We did our testing using a CMMG owned lower and multiple barrels from different batches. Our initial testing pre-launch focused on big name manufacturers of 10mm ammunition (Winchester, Federal, S&B, Sig, Hornady, etc.) who had offerings in the most common grains, specifically 180gr and 200gr. With this new testing we ordered new lots of ammo from the original test ammo manufacturers and over 20 different types of ammunition from smaller manufacturers, and in offerings outside of the 180gr & 200gr. We created the statement below based on that testing. What you were seeing on the casing was not bulging, but case swell. Bulging would be where the casing grows in length and the material thins in an area, which typically leads to a ruptured case. Case swelling is what happens to all ammunition when it is fired and it forms to the chamber. Due to the design of the 10mm casing many of the cases appear to be bulging due to the brass filling our chamber lead. With our Radial Delayed Blowback (RDB) our bolt is locked into place when the round is fired and the delayed unlocking ensures safe operation. When the brass is manufactured correctly and the loads are not pushes to the hot side, then this case swell into the chamber lead does not appear. As I stated above, your firearm has been verified as safe. Choosing a US manufacturer of ammunition in the 1,050 1,275fps will minimize the case swelling on the Mk10 10mm. We had concerns about very hot offerings in 10mm from hand loaders and some smaller but reputable manufacturers. The casings we were provided were a mixture of DoubleTap and Sig Sauer. We were not able to replicate the case swelling to match the spent cases provided. If these were reloads, that could account for the amount of swelling. We are including some of our spent cases with the firearm. When the casing is unchanged, but is used to contain 10mm rounds pushing 1,300fps or greater, then our firearm is still safe. The safety comes from being built around the AR platform barrel, barrel extension, bolt, and RDB delayed unlocking. Unfortunately, bad things happen to casings when anyone chooses to push ammunition beyond the design intent of the casing. CMMG, Inc. Statement: CMMG recognizes that the chamber lead and chamber in the Mk10 result in a less than 100% fully supported casing. Handguns do not have the same lead or chamber design due to the short distance and the way the round chambers with the barrels tipping/moving to assist, yet many 10mm handguns have unsupported cases also. The Mk10 chamber and lead were designed in a way to provide the most reliable feeding behavior while maintaining safe operation with properly loaded 10mm ammunition. The chamber and leads used to manufacture the Mk10 are similar to those we use on the 9mm, 40S&W, and .45ACP. With these calibers we do not see any bulging with any factory offerings of +P or below ammunition. Unfortunately, 10mm was designed in a way that pressures generated by max loads cannot be well contained in an unsupported chamber, resulting in case swelling and the inability to reload cases with certain combinations. Not every 10mm case is the same. SAAMI only defines the external dimensions of cases, which leads to varying wall thicknesses and strength. We've measured as much as a 25% difference in wall thickness between manufacturers. CMMG has fired tens of thousands of rounds through our Mk10 platform durability testing and found no safety concerns from the case swelling. During our function and reliability testing, which tests feeding, extraction, ejection, and durability, we tested a wide variety of ammunition. We found that when the Power Factor > 230, using 180gr bullets, the greater the likelihood the casing will show visible signs of "bulging". CMMG concluded that the firearm was still safe, as it is designed to function and contain the pressures of properly loaded 10mm ammunition safely. CMMG does not recommend continuing to shoot ammunition that shows multiple signs of overpressure. If you are seeing extreme case swelling and any other common sign of overpressure, such as ejector swipes, blown primers, split cases, etc., discontinue using that ammunition and test another load or brand. CMMG stands behinds its products and is confident in our design of safe and functional firearms. In this case, we have found the inherent design of the 10mm cartridge produces some tradeoffs when it comes to the ability to reuse and reload cases. Once again, we would like to thank you for your business and hopefully this brief explanation might help you better understand our position on this particular situation. Thank you for your understanding and patience in this matter. We took this claim very seriously and only had the safety of our customers at heart. Have a terrific New Year and a blessed day. Attached File Below is the image I uploaded earlier with the original barrel. Most of this was Double Tap Attached File |
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Yeah wish they'd sell the BCG separately so i could buy that then Rudy's barrel. I returned my gun. In the end, as a $1600 gun that I wasn't thrilled with and left a bad taste in my mouth whenever I shot it, it wasn't meeting reasonable expectations. CMMG has way too much profit margin on this for me to not send it back. Had this been a $650 gun, I probably would have lived with it. Thankful to have a store that stands behind itself for situations like this, especially on a product I special ordered. |
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What's wrong with Rudy's gas system? I returned my gun. In the end, as a $1600 gun that I wasn't thrilled with and left a bad taste in my mouth whenever I shot it, it wasn't meeting reasonable expectations. CMMG has way too much profit margin on this for me to not send it back. Had this been a $650 gun, I probably would have lived with it. Thankful to have a store that stands behind itself for situations like this, especially on a product I special ordered. |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - CMMG 10 mm (Page 2 of 2)
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I would like to test it on the ANGSTADT and Black Creek Precision lowers I have 10mm DI uppers on currently.




