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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Carl Gustaf NATO 5.56X45/.223 62grn (Page 1 of 7)
Posted: 6/13/2014 7:37:29 PM EDT
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Does anyone have experience with this ammo?
Thanks! |
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Thanks, I tried to google it but couldn't find it. Looks interesting, You should be the test subject 
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Thanks, I tried to google it but couldn't find it. Looks interesting, You should be the test subject Quoted:
Thanks, I tried to google it but couldn't find it. Looks interesting, You should be the test subject Appears it will be sold out before anyone gets a chance to shoot it. |
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I know what it says, do you know that for fact or quoting the website? Quoted:
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Says Berdan Primer Just reading the website. I would hope they know what the hell it is they are selling. |
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Website also says their bullet has more Sectional Density which is bullshit. It is 62 grains, so has same SD as M855. Quoted:
Website also says their bullet has more Sectional Density which is bullshit. It is 62 grains, so has same SD as M855. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sectional_density Use in ballistics
The sectional density of a projectile can be employed in two area of ballistics. Within external ballistics, when the sectional density of a projectile is divided by its form factor[disambiguation needed] it yields the projectile's ballistic coefficient.[4] Within terminal ballistics, the sectional density of a projectile is one of the determining factors for projectile penetration. The interaction between projectile (fragments) and target media is however a complex subject. A study regarding hunting bullets shows that besides sectional density several other parameters determine bullet penetration.[5][6][7] Only if all other factors are equal, the projectile with the greatest amount of sectional density will penetrate the deepest. |
Definitely Berdan primed. Don't have any other 62gr bullets to compare it to but here it is next to a 55gr. From what I've looked up M855 bullets are .906" so it does appear to be longer.  Don't have the tools for a cross section....this might be my excuse to go buy a dremel  |
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Just got an email that is available again. Bought 1 case to try it.
http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx?item=A556CG |
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I've tested it
Fired 3 ten-shot groups at 100 yards using iron sights out of a Les Baer National Match 
I thought it shot very well for ball ammunition 
Also they are correct in the projectile is different and longer than a typical SS109/M855 ball projectile. From Left to Right 77 grain Sierra MatchKing, 62 grain Carl Gustav, 62 grain M855 
Good looking stuff which shot very well Averaged 3178 fps from a 20 inch Colt A2 |
| One thing to be aware of is that this stuff will be probably useless in terms of terminal effectiveness on anything living. IIRC, my source on this was Small Arms of the World. Anyway, as I recall, when NATO went to 5.56x45mm, the Swedes decided to follow suit, but being the Swedes they didn't like that M193 & SS109/M855 fragment. So, they designed something they called the "Swedish Humane Round", that doesn't fragment (or expand, of course, that being a violation of International law in military use). So, it will poke nice .22 caliber holes in things, but probably not stop anything bigger than a squirrel. |
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One thing to be aware of is that this stuff will be probably useless in terms of terminal effectiveness on anything living. IIRC, my source on this was Small Arms of the World. Anyway, as I recall, when NATO went to 5.56x45mm, the Swedes decided to follow suit, but being the Swedes they didn't like that M193 & SS109/M855 fragment. So, they designed something they called the "Swedish Humane Round", that doesn't fragment (or expand, of course, that being a violation of International law in military use). So, it will poke nice .22 caliber holes in things, but probably not stop anything bigger than a squirrel. That's about as easy to believe as it is to believe that the IRS honestly lost Lois Lerner's emails. 
So I won't even address that but it's hard to resist
Answering someone else's question, it has a steel core. 
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What's so hard to believe - that a non-expanding & non-fragmenting 5.56mm bullet is ineffective, or that the Swedes would adopt one?
It says on this board's stickied "Best Choices for Self Defense Ammo" that when M855 fails to fragment it makes a wound profile similar to a .22LR. When the Europeans found out their 7.62mm NATO bullet fragmented they redesigned it so it wouldn't, because they thought fragmenting ammo was against International law. See here... http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2FBF01225042 |
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What's so hard to believe - that a non-expanding & non-fragmenting 5.56mm bullet is ineffective, or that the Swedes would adopt one? It says on this board's stickied "Best Choices for Self Defense Ammo" that when M855 fails to fragment it makes a wound profile similar to a .22LR. When the Europeans found out their 7.62mm NATO bullet fragmented they redesigned it so it wouldn't, because they thought fragmenting ammo was against International law. See here... http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2FBF01225042 Mainly, because you aren't applying any common sense. Do you even shoot stuff bro? Do you know why bullets fragment? |
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Quoted: One thing to be aware of is that this stuff will be probably useless in terms of terminal effectiveness on anything living. Useless is a strong word. I agree it will be less effective than the Sierra 77 or 69. But we haven't seen the armor performance yet. |
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Useless is a strong word. I agree it will be less effective than the Sierra 77 or 69. But we haven't seen the armor performance yet. Quoted:
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One thing to be aware of is that this stuff will be probably useless in terms of terminal effectiveness on anything living. Useless is a strong word. I agree it will be less effective than the Sierra 77 or 69. But we haven't seen the armor performance yet. Yep, maybe too strong. I don't think this stuff is intended to be match ammo or sniper ammo, just plain Jane service rifle ammo. So, the appropriate comparison is more with green tip. If it is what I think it is, then it is probably less effective on humans or large animal targets than green tip (which is not exactly the standard of excellence). That it is steel core and the same weight but longer than green tip would suggest that it really is completely steel under that jacket, as opposed to a steel tip in front of lead like green tip. If so, then I wouldn't expect either fragmentation or expansion. |
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Quoted: Yep, maybe too strong. I don't think this stuff is intended to be match ammo or sniper ammo, just plain Jane service rifle ammo. So, the appropriate comparison is more with green tip. If it is what I think it is, then it is probably less effective on humans or large animal targets than green tip (which is not exactly the standard of excellence). That it is steel core and the same weight but longer than green tip would suggest that it really is completely steel under that jacket, as opposed to a steel tip in front of lead like green tip. If so, then I wouldn't expect either fragmentation or expansion. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: One thing to be aware of is that this stuff will be probably useless in terms of terminal effectiveness on anything living. Useless is a strong word. I agree it will be less effective than the Sierra 77 or 69. But we haven't seen the armor performance yet. Yep, maybe too strong. I don't think this stuff is intended to be match ammo or sniper ammo, just plain Jane service rifle ammo. So, the appropriate comparison is more with green tip. If it is what I think it is, then it is probably less effective on humans or large animal targets than green tip (which is not exactly the standard of excellence). That it is steel core and the same weight but longer than green tip would suggest that it really is completely steel under that jacket, as opposed to a steel tip in front of lead like green tip. If so, then I wouldn't expect either fragmentation or expansion. 1.5" ten shot groups @100yds with irons (as shown above) is a bit better than plain jane service ammo usually gets... |
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1.5" ten shot groups @100yds with irons (as shown above) is a bit better than plain jane service ammo usually gets... Quoted:
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One thing to be aware of is that this stuff will be probably useless in terms of terminal effectiveness on anything living. Useless is a strong word. I agree it will be less effective than the Sierra 77 or 69. But we haven't seen the armor performance yet. Yep, maybe too strong. I don't think this stuff is intended to be match ammo or sniper ammo, just plain Jane service rifle ammo. So, the appropriate comparison is more with green tip. If it is what I think it is, then it is probably less effective on humans or large animal targets than green tip (which is not exactly the standard of excellence). That it is steel core and the same weight but longer than green tip would suggest that it really is completely steel under that jacket, as opposed to a steel tip in front of lead like green tip. If so, then I wouldn't expect either fragmentation or expansion. 1.5" ten shot groups @100yds with irons (as shown above) is a bit better than plain jane service ammo usually gets... I was thinking that too. |
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OK, took a hack saw to it. It fell apart before I could get all the way through. It looks like the core is made up of two parts....and both stick to a magnet.  But on the forward part of the core it looks like there's some kind of seam.  Don't really know what to make of it just putting it out there. Maybe someone who has the right tools can get a real cross section. |
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Gunwritr, Thanks for your post...and pics. I ordered a couple cans of the C Gustaf, I'm curious how POA/POI compares with typical M855. Did you feel re-zero might be called for? I shot it out of a Colt A2 upper using irons at 700-800 yards on steel silhouettes from the sitting position with a sling and it was flying about 100 meters or so flatter than the iron sights BDC. It has been a while since I've shot an A2 with irons at those distances and my eyes are not what they used to be. It was great fun though!! |
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I've had good luck with it, it shot very well out of my Les Baer
Ohiobr thanks for the photos. I like how you cut into it and managed to show both pieces of the core like that. Very interesting. I filed one to section it to see inside but I like the way yours looks........thanks. |
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There is a good article by the BBC about lead free ammo made in Sweden. http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-19116438
It goes on to say that ammo made in Sweden before 2010 had a problem; but has been subsequently fixed. "In 1995, the Swedish government requested alternative ammunition. Four years later, the first lead-free bullets were delivered. Since then Nammo has made 360 million at its plant on the shores of Lake Vattern in southern Sweden. To the untrained eye there's nothing to mark out the green bullets as different, from the pointed, copper-coloured tip, down the shining cartridge to the ridged base. But Nammo claims each green round is designed to "minimise the impact on users' health" and on the environment. The company also trumpets that the new design shows "improved lethality". They now make 80 million a year. All lead has been removed along with any heavy metals in the gunpowder. The core of the round is made of steel. Lead has always been an obvious choice for ammunition. It's cheap, heavy and easy to mould into bullet shapes - it also has a lubricating effect on gun barrels when fired. Nammo claims that over the past decade it has prevented 1,200 tonnes of lead being put into the environment. But the introduction of lead-free rounds has not been without its problems. In 2009 soldiers began to report fever, headaches and joint pains after using the rounds in the Norwegian army's new assault rifle. For a time they were forced to revert to their old ammunition. Research showed that the combination of new bullets and new weapons caused increases in emissions of carbon dioxide, ammonia and hydrogen cyanide. There was a complete redesign and Nammo claims the problems have now been solved. " Nammo Vingåkersverken AB has been engaged in demilitarisation of ammunition for more than 35 years. The plant was established in 1967 as an assembly and explosives casting plant for the famous Swedish Carl-Gustaf system. Demilitarisation operations were started in early 1970's and have from then grown to be the main activity. Today approx. 80 employees have their work at Nammo Vingåkersverken. The company has developed a number of explosive removal processes and high speed disassembly equipments, for all types of explosives and ammunition, in addition to unique civilian explosives products from recovered material. |
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Seems like any health concerns are only if you shoot it indoors.
http://www.sadefensejournal.com/wp/?p=2313 1) Nammo Non-toxic: 5.56mm. Most ammunition contains lead and other toxic material, which is increasingly a problem given growing public awareness of environmental issues and ever more stringent requirements to protect the environment. This affects the armed forces, with many of the existing small arms training ranges likely to close due to potential groundwater contamination. The problems are even worse in the closed quarters of an indoor range. Nammo has responded by developing non-toxic ammunition free from heavy metals in the projectile, powder and primer. While initially used for training this has been designed to achieve full military performance, at least as good as existing lead-cored ammunition. This is NATO qualified in 5.56x45mm ball and 7.62x51mm ball and tracer loadings and has been in service with armed forces and federal agencies for several years. The 5.56mm ball resembles the SS109/M855 bullet in being an FMJ design with the gilding metal jacket fully enclosing the core except at the base, and with the front part of the core consisting of a hardened steel penetrator. The difference is that the rest of the core is of steel rather than lead. The first version of this ammunition, designated NT 4 HP, was NATO qualified in 2004 by which time it was already in service with Sweden and Norway. In 2009, complaints concerning health issues began to arise from Norway concerning the use of this ammunition with their new HK 416 rifles in indoor ranges. After a detailed investigation the source was identified as copper and zinc emissions resulting from the interaction between the bullet and the relatively tight HK 416 barrel (interestingly, while the NT 4 HP produced more such emissions than the M855, it produced fewer than the M855A1). A redesign effort resulted in the BNT 4 HP Mk2, which significantly reduced the emissions while delivering improved accuracy (equal to or less than 2 MOA) and enhanced penetration (3.5mm steel plate at 700 m, compared with 550 m minimum requirement for SS109). Lethality is also improved, with the bullet beginning a rapid yaw after penetrating less than 2.5 inches (60mm) into a soft target. |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Carl Gustaf NATO 5.56X45/.223 62grn (Page 1 of 7)
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