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Posted: 2/23/2015 5:37:30 PM EDT
[#1]
We used some of these for ipsc training years ago, and several of the shooters became ill after as little as 150rds outdors.
I still have a few cases of these back home, but I will not use them in my personal firearms anymore. |
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Posted: 2/23/2015 5:38:43 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I've destroyed barrels with as little as 1000 rounds of this ammo (stainless matchbarrel). Chromed barrels usually have a lifespan of 5-7k before they start opening up the group size radically. Nammo had to buy back a lot of these from the Norwegian Army, because of several different issues (illness, barrel life, pressure). Over here, most shooters will not use them in their personal guns. Sounds like you have a lot of experience with this ammo. Have you conducted any informal penetration tests of any medium? |
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Posted: 2/23/2015 5:52:45 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Sounds like you have a lot of experience with this ammo. Have you conducted any informal penetration tests of any medium? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I've destroyed barrels with as little as 1000 rounds of this ammo (stainless matchbarrel). Chromed barrels usually have a lifespan of 5-7k before they start opening up the group size radically. Nammo had to buy back a lot of these from the Norwegian Army, because of several different issues (illness, barrel life, pressure). Over here, most shooters will not use them in their personal guns. Sounds like you have a lot of experience with this ammo. Have you conducted any informal penetration tests of any medium? I've not conducted much testing with these, but they penetrate well (better than m855) in most mediums (wood, cinderblock, kevlar, steel) We were issued this ammunition a short while, before the problems became to obvious to ignore. |
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Posted: 2/23/2015 6:23:14 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've destroyed barrels with as little as 1000 rounds of this ammo (stainless matchbarrel). Chromed barrels usually have a lifespan of 5-7k before they start opening up the group size radically. Nammo had to buy back a lot of these from the Norwegian Army, because of several different issues (illness, barrel life, pressure). Over here, most shooters will not use them in their personal guns. I've read that the tight bores of the HK 416 makes the problem worse |
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Posted: 2/23/2015 6:32:03 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I've not conducted much testing with these, but they penetrate well (better than m855) in most mediums (wood, cinderblock, kevlar, steel) We were issued this ammunition a short while, before the problems became to obvious to ignore. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I've destroyed barrels with as little as 1000 rounds of this ammo (stainless matchbarrel). Chromed barrels usually have a lifespan of 5-7k before they start opening up the group size radically. Nammo had to buy back a lot of these from the Norwegian Army, because of several different issues (illness, barrel life, pressure). Over here, most shooters will not use them in their personal guns. Sounds like you have a lot of experience with this ammo. Have you conducted any informal penetration tests of any medium? I've not conducted much testing with these, but they penetrate well (better than m855) in most mediums (wood, cinderblock, kevlar, steel) We were issued this ammunition a short while, before the problems became to obvious to ignore. Based on the mechanical joinery between the hardened steel front penetrator and the softer steel rear core, the NM229 should have significantly better barrier penetration against oblique surfaces than M885. On the M855 the only thing holding the two parts together is the jacket; which is why its poor against windshields. |
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Posted: 2/23/2015 6:53:07 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I've not conducted much testing with these, but they penetrate well (better than m855) in most mediums (wood, cinderblock, kevlar, steel) We were issued this ammunition a short while, before the problems became to obvious to ignore. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I've destroyed barrels with as little as 1000 rounds of this ammo (stainless matchbarrel). Chromed barrels usually have a lifespan of 5-7k before they start opening up the group size radically. Nammo had to buy back a lot of these from the Norwegian Army, because of several different issues (illness, barrel life, pressure). Over here, most shooters will not use them in their personal guns. Sounds like you have a lot of experience with this ammo. Have you conducted any informal penetration tests of any medium? I've not conducted much testing with these, but they penetrate well (better than m855) in most mediums (wood, cinderblock, kevlar, steel) We were issued this ammunition a short while, before the problems became to obvious to ignore. I'm just curious, what was it about this round that was causing nausea and other physical ailments? There is no lead and just steel for the bullet construction, so shouldn't be anything toxic? Did you experience any sort of adverse effects from this round? |
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Posted: 2/23/2015 7:06:27 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm just curious, what was it about this round that was causing nausea and other physical ailments? There is no lead and just steel for the bullet construction, so shouldn't be anything toxic? Did you experience any sort of adverse effects from this round? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I've destroyed barrels with as little as 1000 rounds of this ammo (stainless matchbarrel). Chromed barrels usually have a lifespan of 5-7k before they start opening up the group size radically. Nammo had to buy back a lot of these from the Norwegian Army, because of several different issues (illness, barrel life, pressure). Over here, most shooters will not use them in their personal guns. Sounds like you have a lot of experience with this ammo. Have you conducted any informal penetration tests of any medium? I've not conducted much testing with these, but they penetrate well (better than m855) in most mediums (wood, cinderblock, kevlar, steel) We were issued this ammunition a short while, before the problems became to obvious to ignore. I'm just curious, what was it about this round that was causing nausea and other physical ailments? There is no lead and just steel for the bullet construction, so shouldn't be anything toxic? Did you experience any sort of adverse effects from this round? A report I saw said stated that it was high levels of copper and zinc particles. Toxic gas levels though were much lower than M855 and M193 |
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Posted: 2/23/2015 7:18:07 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I've destroyed barrels with as little as 1000 rounds of this ammo (stainless matchbarrel). Chromed barrels usually have a lifespan of 5-7k before they start opening up the group size radically. Nammo had to buy back a lot of these from the Norwegian Army, because of several different issues (illness, barrel life, pressure). Over here, most shooters will not use them in their personal guns. How exactly is this round destroying barrels in 1000 rounds? |
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Posted: 2/23/2015 7:34:02 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How exactly is this round destroying barrels in 1000 rounds? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I've destroyed barrels with as little as 1000 rounds of this ammo (stainless matchbarrel). Chromed barrels usually have a lifespan of 5-7k before they start opening up the group size radically. Nammo had to buy back a lot of these from the Norwegian Army, because of several different issues (illness, barrel life, pressure). Over here, most shooters will not use them in their personal guns. How exactly is this round destroying barrels in 1000 rounds? That is a bit hard to fathom. I have trouble believing what this guy is saying. I've been reading many different forums and none really flamed this ammo. This guy makes it sound like the worst 5.56 ever. Like I said, most people have given this ammo the green light. Unless this guy provides proof, I'm not buying it. |
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Posted: 2/23/2015 7:51:07 PM EDT
[#10]
Yeah but after hearing that, along with the other complaints, it's making me consider reselling this stuff when it's delivered and buy some Federal M856 instead.
I like the benefit of a flatter trajectory and increase penetration, but I'm not sure if it out weights the negatives. |
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Posted: 2/23/2015 8:53:36 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That is a bit hard to fathom. I have trouble believing what this guy is saying. I've been reading many different forums and none really flamed this ammo. This guy makes it sound like the worst 5.56 ever. Like I said, most people have given this ammo the green light. Unless this guy provides proof, I'm not buying it. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: I've destroyed barrels with as little as 1000 rounds of this ammo (stainless matchbarrel). Chromed barrels usually have a lifespan of 5-7k before they start opening up the group size radically. Nammo had to buy back a lot of these from the Norwegian Army, because of several different issues (illness, barrel life, pressure). Over here, most shooters will not use them in their personal guns. How exactly is this round destroying barrels in 1000 rounds? That is a bit hard to fathom. I have trouble believing what this guy is saying. I've been reading many different forums and none really flamed this ammo. This guy makes it sound like the worst 5.56 ever. Like I said, most people have given this ammo the green light. Unless this guy provides proof, I'm not buying it. |
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Posted: 2/23/2015 9:14:16 PM EDT
[#12]
My shooting partner and I split a case so each of us have shot 500 rounds.
We always bench rest a little during a trip to the range and I don't have any indication of our barrels groups opening up with this or other ammo. Of course he did say 1000 rds so I'm only half way there. We shoot about 200 rds of it each trip (outdoors) and have not noticed any physical ill effects. Another thing to keep in mind when considering reviews is folks who had some kind of issue will go out of their way to post about it but people who didn't have issues generally won't take the time. I'd say we are not hearing from the majority of people who like it. If I only bought things that had no bad reviews I wouldn't own most of the stuff I have. |
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Posted: 2/23/2015 9:20:09 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How exactly is this round destroying barrels in 1000 rounds? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I've destroyed barrels with as little as 1000 rounds of this ammo (stainless matchbarrel). Chromed barrels usually have a lifespan of 5-7k before they start opening up the group size radically. Nammo had to buy back a lot of these from the Norwegian Army, because of several different issues (illness, barrel life, pressure). Over here, most shooters will not use them in their personal guns. How exactly is this round destroying barrels in 1000 rounds? (1) The jacketed steel bullet is much harder than a jacketed lead bullet; (2) which means the bullet no longer readily deforms to fit the bore (3) which means there is a lot more friction and force on the rifling (4) which means its much harder to push the bullet down the bore (5) which means the pressures inside the bore increases by the amount required to force the bullet through the bore (6) which means the rifling has to work harder & cuts deeper into the jacket and shaves off more material than a jacketed lead bullet (7) which means more fouling, gas cutting, and more airborne metal floating around to be inhaled To experience it first hand, take a 5.56 caliber gummy bear and see how hard it is to push down the bore with a dowel; then try the same with a steel 5.56 caliber slug; then guess which wears the barrel more. Based on the research showing NM229 puts out twice as much airborne Copper as M855 (in a HK416), one can rightfully assume that NM229 causes at least twice as much barrel wear in that HK416. The extent to which the above is happening to any particular rifle can probably be surmised by how much the ejected brass is showing signs of over pressure However, at some point, the barrel will wear enough where the bullet can more readily pass down the bore and the rate of erosion (and gas pressure signs) should drop |
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Posted: 2/23/2015 10:28:53 PM EDT
[#14]
Thats odd...
Can I ordered from Aim within the first 5 minutes of being available at $399 hasn't shipped.... The 200 rounds I ordered last night, just got tracking for. 
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Posted: 2/23/2015 10:34:51 PM EDT
[#15]
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Posted: 2/23/2015 11:07:33 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That is a bit hard to fathom. I have trouble believing what this guy is saying. I've been reading many different forums and none really flamed this ammo. This guy makes it sound like the worst 5.56 ever. Like I said, most people have given this ammo the green light. Unless this guy provides proof, I'm not buying it. The bullet is not formed into the rifling when going through the bore, it just strips it's thin jacket (which results in directly steel om steel contact, and obvious signs of overpressure). Many of the pictures in this thread proofs that.. Some barrels tolerates this ammunition better than others, but the level of wear will be much higher than most other known ammo variants. The ammunition available for US residents now, is THE ammunition that were bought back by Nammo from the Norwegian Army. We used it over several years, you've had them available a few months. I don't usually care much on how other treats their weapons, but I thought it would be appropriate to give you guys a heads up on what we've experienced with the NM229.. I, usually, am very happy to get free ammunition by the casefull, but after having used it a while, i'll rather shoot russian cheapstuff that I have to pay for myself! The illness people have experienced with these, is called metal fume fever (google/wiki should provide plenty detailed information on the subject). Edit: added a few words |
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Posted: 2/23/2015 11:10:02 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The bullet is not formed into the grooves when going through the bore, it just strips it's thin jacket (which results in directly steel om steel contact, and obvious signs of overpressure). Many of the pictures in this thread proofs that.. Some barrels tolerates this ammunition better than others, but the level of wear will be much higher than most other known ammo variants. The ammunition available for US residents now, is THE ammunition that were bought back by Nammo from the Norwegian Army. I don't usually care much on how other treats their weapons, but I thought it would be appropriate to give you guys a heads up on what we've experienced with the NM229.. I, usually, am very happy to get free ammunition by the casefull, but after having used it a while, i'll rather shoot russian cheapstuff that I have to pay for myself! The illness people have experienced with these, is called metal fume fever (google/wiki should provide plenty detailed information on the subject). Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
That is a bit hard to fathom. I have trouble believing what this guy is saying. I've been reading many different forums and none really flamed this ammo. This guy makes it sound like the worst 5.56 ever. Like I said, most people have given this ammo the green light. Unless this guy provides proof, I'm not buying it. The bullet is not formed into the grooves when going through the bore, it just strips it's thin jacket (which results in directly steel om steel contact, and obvious signs of overpressure). Many of the pictures in this thread proofs that.. Some barrels tolerates this ammunition better than others, but the level of wear will be much higher than most other known ammo variants. The ammunition available for US residents now, is THE ammunition that were bought back by Nammo from the Norwegian Army. I don't usually care much on how other treats their weapons, but I thought it would be appropriate to give you guys a heads up on what we've experienced with the NM229.. I, usually, am very happy to get free ammunition by the casefull, but after having used it a while, i'll rather shoot russian cheapstuff that I have to pay for myself! The illness people have experienced with these, is called metal fume fever (google/wiki should provide plenty detailed information on the subject). Fair enough.  , thanks for elaborating.
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Posted: 2/23/2015 11:16:24 PM EDT
[#18]
Swede1986 said in the GD thread on this ammo that the jacket is made from a copper/zinc alloy called Tombac. Copper and zinc just so happen to be the metal particles that are released in high amounts according to that emissions report i posed earlier. the wiki entry on Tombac has this interesting mention:
"The Swedish armed forces adopted a special-service round for the Carl Gustav m/45 submachine gun with a tombac-plated steel jacket surrounding the lead core of the bullet loaded in the cartridge. While the lands of the barrel can cut into the tombac, the steel jacket resists deformation and thus causes the gas pressure to rise higher than the previous soft-jacketed m/39, giving the 6,8-g (106-grain) bullet a muzzle velocity of 420 m/s (1,378 ft/s)" Could 1:7 twist barrels also increase the friction of the rifling cutting into the jacket and result in more particles being released? Maybe i should put on a P100 particulate respirator when i take this to the range  too bad they didnt test the ammo in guns that dont have a tight barrel like the HK416 does |
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Posted: 2/24/2015 12:15:55 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
AR500 is what tanks and armored cars use. 5 inch thick mil spec steel is what is most commonly used these days. Steel isn't dense enough to pierce it. Thats why most armies use RPG's or Carl Gustov's other creation the M45 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onr3iH7vNco a focused energetic monroe force moving as a very high 6000 fps can penetrate dense materials vs gun powder at 4000 to 5000 fps . Yes you can hit armor like this at 4000 FPS but the steel will just shatter. You have to go down the periodic table with something with greater tensile / density . So you need to pierce AR 500 you have to go with Tungsten ammo and get danger close to it . Its like a graphite pencil being thrown. . 
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Posted: 2/24/2015 12:34:07 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Could 1:7 twist barrels also increase the friction of the rifling cutting into the jacket and result in more particles being released? too bad they didnt test the ammo in guns that dont have a tight barrel like the HK416 does The ammo has been tested in multiple platforms, with mostly negative results (various AR's, AUG's, HK's, AK's, bolt guns, etc). The twist rate seems to have little impact on barrel life (barrel steel quality varies to much to give a definitive answer). I work as a gunsmith nowadays, and I've rebarreled many rifles after varying use of nm229. |
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Posted: 2/24/2015 12:42:49 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The ammo has been tested in multiple platforms, with mostly negative results (various AR's, AUG's, HK's, AK's, bolt guns, etc). The twist rate seems to have little impact on barrel life (barrel steel quality varies to much to give a definitive answer). I work as a gunsmith nowadays, and I've rebarreled many rifles after varying use of nm229. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Could 1:7 twist barrels also increase the friction of the rifling cutting into the jacket and result in more particles being released? too bad they didnt test the ammo in guns that dont have a tight barrel like the HK416 does The ammo has been tested in multiple platforms, with mostly negative results (various AR's, AUG's, HK's, AK's, bolt guns, etc). The twist rate seems to have little impact on barrel life (barrel steel quality varies to much to give a definitive answer). I work as a gunsmith nowadays, and I've rebarreled many rifles after varying use of nm229. i think that the barrel wear issue (separate from the metal particle emissions) is going to be a problem for many lead free rounds that go the steel core route. without the 'give' of a lead core, there will naturally be more wear on rifling. when it was tested in different weapons, was that for checking the particle/gas emissions or for checking barrel wear? |
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Posted: 2/24/2015 12:47:47 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The ammo has been tested in multiple platforms, with mostly negative results (various AR's, AUG's, HK's, AK's, bolt guns, etc). The twist rate seems to have little impact on barrel life (barrel steel quality varies to much to give a definitive answer). I work as a gunsmith nowadays, and I've rebarreled many rifles after varying use of nm229. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Could 1:7 twist barrels also increase the friction of the rifling cutting into the jacket and result in more particles being released? too bad they didnt test the ammo in guns that dont have a tight barrel like the HK416 does The ammo has been tested in multiple platforms, with mostly negative results (various AR's, AUG's, HK's, AK's, bolt guns, etc). The twist rate seems to have little impact on barrel life (barrel steel quality varies to much to give a definitive answer). I work as a gunsmith nowadays, and I've rebarreled many rifles after varying use of nm229. It would be interesting to see what it does in an AR pistol or SBR; seems plausible that at least the emissions would be lower Also, a pistol might get the greatest ballistic benefit per cost of increased wear |
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Posted: 2/24/2015 12:54:14 AM EDT
[#23]
@mcantu:
Mostly barrel wear. A lot of the civilian shooters here hoped that it would not be so hard on the barrel, as the ammo was readily available (fell of the wagon).. 
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Posted: 2/24/2015 6:26:24 AM EDT
[#24]
So whats the bottom line on this stuff...
I've already got in excess of 5k rounds of M855 when you factor in both projectiles and loaded ammo. Is this CG stuff worth spending any money on at all?? |
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Posted: 2/24/2015 10:10:09 AM EDT
[#25]
I'm debating selling mine off too, but the fact that its more legit AP round is sorta cool.
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Posted: 2/24/2015 10:21:34 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm debating selling mine off too, but the fact that its more legit AP round is sorta cool. That's the only reason I bought some. |
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Posted: 2/24/2015 12:56:26 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So whats the bottom line on this stuff... I've already got in excess of 5k rounds of M855 when you factor in both projectiles and loaded ammo. Is this CG stuff worth spending any money on at all?? Best guess is that people would have the same barrel wear problems if they were shooting lots of M995 AP ammo. In regards to the fumes causing "Metal fever", wager that the Zinc primer is solely responsible for the symptoms. So the bottom line is the NM229 probably does stuff the M855 can't, but the cost to using lots of it consistently is barrel wear and respiratory problems |
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Posted: 2/24/2015 4:50:50 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Best guess is that people would have the same barrel wear problems if they were shooting lots of M995 AP ammo. In regards to the fumes causing "Metal fever", wager that the Zinc primer is solely responsible for the symptoms. So the bottom line is the NM229 probably does stuff the M855 can't, but the cost to using lots of it consistently is barrel wear and respiratory problems Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
So whats the bottom line on this stuff... I've already got in excess of 5k rounds of M855 when you factor in both projectiles and loaded ammo. Is this CG stuff worth spending any money on at all?? Best guess is that people would have the same barrel wear problems if they were shooting lots of M995 AP ammo. In regards to the fumes causing "Metal fever", wager that the Zinc primer is solely responsible for the symptoms. So the bottom line is the NM229 probably does stuff the M855 can't, but the cost to using lots of it consistently is barrel wear and respiratory problems True but most folks who are panic buying the little of this that is left won't fit into "using lots of it consistently" Buying a case for it's accuracy and penetration qualities is worth it at this point. Spread a little out to your buddies. I am most impressed by it's accuracy. It is one well made and designed projectile. |
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Posted: 2/24/2015 7:47:06 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
True but most folks who are panic buying the little of this that is left won't fit into "using lots of it consistently" Buying a case for it's accuracy and penetration qualities is worth it at this point. Spread a little out to your buddies. I am most impressed by it's accuracy. It is one well made and designed projectile. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
So whats the bottom line on this stuff... I've already got in excess of 5k rounds of M855 when you factor in both projectiles and loaded ammo. Is this CG stuff worth spending any money on at all?? Best guess is that people would have the same barrel wear problems if they were shooting lots of M995 AP ammo. In regards to the fumes causing "Metal fever", wager that the Zinc primer is solely responsible for the symptoms. So the bottom line is the NM229 probably does stuff the M855 can't, but the cost to using lots of it consistently is barrel wear and respiratory problems True but most folks who are panic buying the little of this that is left won't fit into "using lots of it consistently" Buying a case for it's accuracy and penetration qualities is worth it at this point. Spread a little out to your buddies. I am most impressed by it's accuracy. It is one well made and designed projectile. fuck it...just ordered 500 rounds... |
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Posted: 2/24/2015 9:05:07 PM EDT
[#30]
So in one of the pictures on Aim Surplus, the label reads "non toxic."
linkie any further info? If nothing, I'll shoot them an email. |
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Posted: 2/24/2015 10:03:51 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So in one of the pictures on Aim Surplus, the label reads "non toxic." linkie any further info? If nothing, I'll shoot them an email. Looks like they just sold out in the last hour. I placed an order yesterday for 100 rounds and wanted to up it to 200 rounds before it shipped after reading this thread.....but doesn't look like that will be happening 
If anyone knows a good place to pick up another 100 or 200 rounds, please let me know. Probably keep these in my go bag. |
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Posted: 2/24/2015 10:24:51 PM EDT
[#32]
Not cheap, but ammunition store.com has it.
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Posted: 2/24/2015 10:29:00 PM EDT
[#33]
Yeah that's highway robbery. Any store that jacks their prices THAT high is losing my business on everything else. The Swedish stuff looks like it could be pretty cool......but its still 5.56 at the end of the day and paying almost $1 a round is nuts.
Thanks for the link though!
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Posted: 2/24/2015 11:14:41 PM EDT
[#34]
Wow gone already, glad I have 4 cases coming from Aim.
I really only need to keep 2 for myself so I might be able to help some of you guys out that missed it if you need less than a case. Instant message me if so. And no, my motivation is not profit. You can have it for what it cost me. |
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Posted: 2/24/2015 11:23:27 PM EDT
[#35]
Looks like Midway sold out as well and they were $100 higher.
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Posted: 2/24/2015 11:39:52 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So in one of the pictures on Aim Surplus, the label reads "non toxic." linkie any further info? If nothing, I'll shoot them an email. Well like many things thought up and forced through by well intentioned "environmentalists", blow back and unintended consequences follow. In the case of NM229, it probably IS "non-toxic" as long as it remains unfired, but once you pull the trigger you may keel over from the fumes. |
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Posted: 2/24/2015 11:41:55 PM EDT
[#37]
I wonder if 8k of m855 is enough?
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Posted: 2/24/2015 11:49:21 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I wonder if 8k of m855 is enough?  |
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Posted: 2/25/2015 12:13:29 AM EDT
[#39]
deleted
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Posted: 2/25/2015 5:45:47 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Very good read, Thank You. Read this also....http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=no&u=http://www.ffi.no/no/Rapporter/14-00070.pdf&prev=search All the symptoms sound just like metal fume fever. Very common with zinc. Bear in mind that this specific ammo ( NM229) has been replaced since 2011. The replacement....NM255....http://www.copybook.com/military/news/lead-free-nm255-bullets-for-norway http://www.strategicdefenceintelligence.com/article/YL6stpY5TU/2012/08/07/comment_scandinavia_takes_the_lead_in_removing_ammunition_to/ http://www.nammo.com/news-and-events/news/new-major-contract-for-nammo/ I have read all the available reports on the NM229.... it does have excess "metal fume" issues...it is very interesting to me to note the twist NAMMO put on developing a "safer" ammo... ( NM255 ) . Even though the NM229 was considered unsafe ( metal fume fever wise ) in 2008, it remained in stockpiles until late 2011.... until the NM255 was "perfected". I, have personally experienced metal fume fever. While not completely debilitating, it was troublesome. For some strange reason, all my joints... knuckles, wrists, ankles.. etc... suddenly were stiff and sore. Ultimately, I traced it back to the zinc dust that kills the moss on the roof. This happened about the same time as the NM229 being sold. And reading about the over-pressure issues with certain batches of this ammo, as well as the compressed / clumped ball powder made me investigate. The amount of zinc dust I inhaled was considerably more then someone would be exposed to normally, so the result was more immediate. SOOO.... what I am saying... is that for you guys shooting larger volumes of this NM229 ammo.... watch out for the symptoms. Metal fume fever is due to the inhalation of certain metals, either as fine dust or most commonly as fumes..... Symptoms The symptoms are nonspecific but are generally flu-like including fever, chills, nausea, headache, fatigue, muscle aches, joint pains, lack of appetite, shortness of breath, Pneumonia, chest pain, blood pressure change and cough. A sweet or metallic taste in the mouth may also be reported along with a dry or irritated throat which may lead to hoarseness. Symptoms of a more severe metal toxicity may also include a burning sensation in the body, shock, no urine output, collapse, convulsions, shortness of breath, yellow eyes or yellow skin, rash, vomiting, watery or bloody diarrhea or low or high blood pressure, which require prompt medical attention. Flu-like symptoms will normally disappear within 24 to 48 hours. It often takes one to three weeks to fully recover. IMHO... There are numerous reasons not to use this specific surplus. Enough so that I do not consider any possible increased penetration worth the "cost" of using this ammo. Random Excess pressure, clumped ball powder ( a very good way to get hangfires ), and the exposure to possible metal fume fever...do not make this a good stockpile ammo. Lets face it, the 5.56 has very limited penetration anyways, how much more could these bullets truly offer ? Personally, I believe this specific ammo happens to be "in the right place, at the right time" .... probable M855 ban combined with Carl Gustav surplus not selling well, with a current production M855 green bullet "clone".... means there is now a "great" market to unload it onto. No offense to any of the marketers, as it is a surplus product, and frankly, all ammo buyers should be very cautious of ANY current production surplus. Mil-spec ammo should last decades IF produced correctly.... there is a reason this was sold so promptly. Not just the "sickness" .... I truly suspect the compressed / clumped powder will cause further issues with this ammo. I STRONGLY suggest this specific ammo not be stored as long-term SHTF ammo Clumped Ball powder is bad. Look up how much issue it caused with the OEM original loads in .458WM. The most current report on metal fever from "green ammo". http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2014armaments/TuesSchatz.pdf Quote HistoryQuoted:
Very good read, Thank You. Read this also....http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=no&u=http://www.ffi.no/no/Rapporter/14-00070.pdf&prev=search All the symptoms sound just like metal fume fever. Very common with zinc. Bear in mind that this specific ammo ( NM229) has been replaced since 2011. The replacement....NM255....http://www.copybook.com/military/news/lead-free-nm255-bullets-for-norway http://www.strategicdefenceintelligence.com/article/YL6stpY5TU/2012/08/07/comment_scandinavia_takes_the_lead_in_removing_ammunition_to/ http://www.nammo.com/news-and-events/news/new-major-contract-for-nammo/ I have read all the available reports on the NM229.... it does have excess "metal fume" issues...it is very interesting to me to note the twist NAMMO put on developing a "safer" ammo... ( NM255 ) . Even though the NM229 was considered unsafe ( metal fume fever wise ) in 2008, it remained in stockpiles until late 2011.... until the NM255 was "perfected". I, have personally experienced metal fume fever. While not completely debilitating, it was troublesome. For some strange reason, all my joints... knuckles, wrists, ankles.. etc... suddenly were stiff and sore. Ultimately, I traced it back to the zinc dust that kills the moss on the roof. This happened about the same time as the NM229 being sold. And reading about the over-pressure issues with certain batches of this ammo, as well as the compressed / clumped ball powder made me investigate. The amount of zinc dust I inhaled was considerably more then someone would be exposed to normally, so the result was more immediate. SOOO.... what I am saying... is that for you guys shooting larger volumes of this NM229 ammo.... watch out for the symptoms. Metal fume fever is due to the inhalation of certain metals, either as fine dust or most commonly as fumes..... Symptoms The symptoms are nonspecific but are generally flu-like including fever, chills, nausea, headache, fatigue, muscle aches, joint pains, lack of appetite, shortness of breath, Pneumonia, chest pain, blood pressure change and cough. A sweet or metallic taste in the mouth may also be reported along with a dry or irritated throat which may lead to hoarseness. Symptoms of a more severe metal toxicity may also include a burning sensation in the body, shock, no urine output, collapse, convulsions, shortness of breath, yellow eyes or yellow skin, rash, vomiting, watery or bloody diarrhea or low or high blood pressure, which require prompt medical attention. Flu-like symptoms will normally disappear within 24 to 48 hours. It often takes one to three weeks to fully recover. IMHO... There are numerous reasons not to use this specific surplus. Enough so that I do not consider any possible increased penetration worth the "cost" of using this ammo. Random Excess pressure, clumped ball powder ( a very good way to get hangfires ), and the exposure to possible metal fume fever...do not make this a good stockpile ammo. Lets face it, the 5.56 has very limited penetration anyways, how much more could these bullets truly offer ? Personally, I believe this specific ammo happens to be "in the right place, at the right time" .... probable M855 ban combined with Carl Gustav surplus not selling well, with a current production M855 green bullet "clone".... means there is now a "great" market to unload it onto. No offense to any of the marketers, as it is a surplus product, and frankly, all ammo buyers should be very cautious of ANY current production surplus. Mil-spec ammo should last decades IF produced correctly.... there is a reason this was sold so promptly. Not just the "sickness" .... I truly suspect the compressed / clumped powder will cause further issues with this ammo. I STRONGLY suggest this specific ammo not be stored as long-term SHTF ammo Clumped Ball powder is bad. Look up how much issue it caused with the OEM original loads in .458WM. The most current report on metal fever from "green ammo". http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2014armaments/TuesSchatz.pdf hmmm...good points. rather wish this would have been posted prior to me ordering some. |
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Posted: 2/25/2015 9:35:14 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
hmmm...good points. rather wish this would have been posted prior to me ordering some. +1. Definitely will not be for long term storage. Guess I'll just use it for "lost brass" matches or similar, sans any steel targets of course. |
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Posted: 2/25/2015 10:00:22 AM EDT
[#42]
deleted
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Posted: 2/25/2015 12:03:43 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
+1. Definitely will not be for long term storage. Guess I'll just use it for "lost brass" matches or similar, sans any steel targets of course. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
hmmm...good points. rather wish this would have been posted prior to me ordering some. +1. Definitely will not be for long term storage. Guess I'll just use it for "lost brass" matches or similar, sans any steel targets of course. The Norwegian's were so sure of NM229's long term storability that they were still wanting to keep it NM229 as part of their SHTF military stockpile (for use in their SAW's) |
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Posted: 2/25/2015 1:32:04 PM EDT
[#44]
I ordered 1K of the aforementioned ammo from AIM last Friday, arrived today.
I'm 90 minutes away. Probably won't be out shooting for awhile. |
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Posted: 2/25/2015 4:31:13 PM EDT
[#45]
Showed up today (from the last batch) and its definitely NM229.
My rare earth magnets are much more strongly attracted to the NM229 than M855 Again oddly enough my order of 200 rounds showed up before my order of a can which was made 4 days prior... I guess UPS was tired up picking up 35lb cans of ammo
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Posted: 2/25/2015 4:33:43 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Showed up today (from the last batch) and its definitely NM229. My rare earth magnets are much more strongly attracted to the NM229 than M855 Any plans to put some against 1/4" AR500? |
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Posted: 2/25/2015 4:43:34 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Any plans to put some against 1/4" AR500? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Showed up today (from the last batch) and its definitely NM229. My rare earth magnets are much more strongly attracted to the NM229 than M855 Any plans to put some against 1/4" AR500? 
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Posted: 2/25/2015 4:50:50 PM EDT
[#48]
Awesome. I've got a spare targetman plate I'm thinking about shooting, but I don't really want to break into the case. I wish I would have bought one of the 100 packs.
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Posted: 2/25/2015 5:06:32 PM EDT
[#49]
The core of the bullet is definitely a soft steel, I can scratch it with a push pin
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Posted: 2/25/2015 5:15:14 PM EDT
[#50]
Those holes in the plate look a bit bigger than 5.56 no? Or is that just the angle.....
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