AR Sponsor
I think you'll be quite pleased with the gun once you receive it & get it bzo'd at the range.
sticky anyone? |
|
Great info....great info indeed. Choices Choices ht BTW - I looked on evil-black-rifles.com and didn't see any CMMGs...am I missing them? If I could get one less than MSRP, that of course would rock. |
Go to www.cmmginc.com, skip the middle man. Uppers go for around $525 and lowers for $290. I had all this information in the thread, but I guess you are suffering from information overload? :) |
I could have SWORN that I saw in a gun rag advertisement for the DEA model that it was 1/7. I checked RRA's website, and sure enough it specs out 1/9. It doesn't say lightweight, gov't profile, or heavy anywhere though. On the Entry Tactical, it says "Heavy," but no mention is made for the Pro-Series Gov't. I have edited the post to reflect this information. THANKS! |
Excellent article.
Hammer forged barrels are good, when made correctly. Here is an excerpt from The International Handgun Metallic Silhouette Association, By Todd Spotti THE ART AND SCIENCE OF BARREL MAKING "Again, it was the demands of war that was responsible for the development of this process - only it was done by the other side. Hammer forging was developed in Germany in 1939. Here a drilled barrel, rather than being reamed, is honed to give it a very fine interior finish. Then it is placed on a tungsten carbide mandrel that has the entire rifling pattern ground in relief into its surface. The barrel/mandrel combo is then placed between two opposing power hammers and rotated. The hammers literally beat the barrel into the mandrel’s pattern. I’m told a barrel will actually grow around a third of its length during this process. It usually takes around three minutes for the rifling process to be completed. As you would think, this method produces tremendous stresses in the barrel that have to be relieved through heat treating. The advantages of hammer forging is the fact that the interior finish is very good, and the bore surface becomes work hardened in the beating process. The result is a very durable, long lasting barrel. Modern hammer forging has progressed to the point that even the chamber can be included in the mandrel pattern. These machines are very large, complex, and expensive however. So the small custom barrel shops are pretty much eliminated from using them. Additionally, some say that the induced stresses are so severe in this process that they never can be entirely eliminated. As a result, the bench rest crowd won’t touch a hammer forged barrel. However, I can’t help but wonder how valid this belief actually is, and whether anyone has actually tried it. Remington barrels, which always had a reputation for accuracy, used to be hammer forged, including those used in the XP-100. I know I always had excellent results with original XP barrels. Indeed, in Europe, hammer forging is the standard. Sako, Tika, H&K, Steyer, and Sauer all use hammer forged barrels. I’d hardly call their products junk."
Chrome is good for an everyday use rifle. I have noted the downside of chrome lining; it may flake/strip. I have shot FN and Colt military barrels, that have flaked as early as 2400 rounds. I have shot Bushmaster barrels that have done the same. Flaking at a low round count (under 5000) is rare. Flaking tends to be more prevalent in barrels shot at high volume or very hot, and usually starts either at the throat or gas port. Overall, when buying a chrome lined barrel, stick with good, name brands: Colt, FN (as if those are available), Bushmaster, Armalite. Other lesser brands may use barrels chromed at lower quality plating companies. |
|
Hey jwise, thanks for the excellent article. Although it has some opinion, it's not hidden, and I prefer to know it anyhow. About the middle man, they get products at wholesale prices and can pass along significant savings, as is the case with most RRA dealers, as well as e-b-r. |
Most AR15 carriers come with AR15 firing pins. Most M16 carriers come with M16 firing pins but some have ar15 pins in M16 carriers which is a non issue. LWRC uses M16 firing pins but all their carriers are M16 carriers. I know of no manufacturer who uses the M16 pin in an unramped AR15 carrier but it could end up in a persons posession and should never be used in a unramped carrier. Since you specifically tell people to not get an unramped carrier its probably a non issue. For the titanium firing pins I have seen "built up" DPMS rifles with "extra addons" for sale at gunshows from dealers with things like TiN coated carriers and titanium firing pins (all DPMS parts) on DPMS rifles. For the straight vs taper pin. Most of the manufacturers who use straight pins do it because of concerns with accuracy. A deep taper pin inserted with a great amount of force can cause a tiny amount of distortion of the barrel's bore. It is the interferance fit that makes it not move. This can reduce accuracy. Not a big deal for a duty rifle but it is why it is done... its for a reason, not just because they are skimping. Probably over anal but if you do ever swap the FSB taper pins are a BITCH to remove sometimes. I had to cut off my Bushmaster FSB to gt the pins out as one just would NOT move. I have seen a RRA that would not return to the forward position under its own power and one that lost its stages. ADCO has that stronger pin version so perhaps they can tell you of instances where it actually broke. I dont know of any myself. I believe CMMG offered either either extruded or forged handles as on option but perhaps it was someone else. Cant remember of fthe top of my head, sorry. I have never had anything but forged handles and Gasbusters so I dont have any pics to show differences. I know people have broken extruded handles clearing malfunctions. Perhaps a post asking about people who have pics of them and experiences would be in order for you to get more info. Oh, and you will be happy with your new barrel when you get it.  This was quite an undertaking and you have done a good job so far. Kudos. |
|
Very good information all and all. There are differences in the brands of ARs for sure, but even the high $$$ ones are not really high $$ compared to other types of guns. I will also post pictures of my RRA LAR-15. Mine was keyed properly, and has M4 feed ramps. Mines was just purchased last month so I'm not sure if they have just changed how they do things or "I got a good 1." Mines is a CAR, barrel has the chrome coating. I did not order the M4 ramps so that may be standard now?? So far I'm very happy with it even though my upper is being swaped out in favor of HK 416. Not because of the gas system or anything like that, but I'm just an HK Freak. If anyone else that has recently bought a RRA and has the same features as mine please post up pics, and I'll throw mine up as soon as I get back to my house. Thomas |
You lost credibility with this one. Almost all major brands block their lower. This is misleading and implies only Colt does this. In fact, Colt blocks are superior to others in certain respects if you are looking at several different brands and all are blocked. A sear block can no way prevent the gun from coming apart provided you used the correct carrier. This is not an issue as most people don't own a DIAS. I could give you an example of a PC move that every AR company does. Yet none of this is included in your topic. |
|
Jwise, I think you did a very good job with your article. I could see it come in very handy for a guy that was not into firearms but wanted to make an informed choice about his purchase. A lot of the information presented is just your opinion though, and it kinda hurts your intended purpose. There is a lot of bullshit out there and it's mainly from people expressing their opinions without fact to back it all up. Please don't take my comments the wrong way. There are certain things in there that are debatable. Such as not staking the castle nut. Yes, I know red loctite should hold it, but it would also work on the bolt carrier key bolts. Why stake those? See what I'm getting at? Anyway, you did a really good job and somebody needing a weapon (not a range toy) would not go wrong using your guide. Try not to take the criticisms to heart, we are just trying to help make it better before it gets stickied. |
There's a reason mil weapons are staked at the receiver extension end plate. They can come loose under heavy use. I learned this the hard way about 15 years ago. Loctite can be used, but can also be a PITA to remove. Also, when using pics I would be sure to get permission from the owner. I would then host the images, since outside links can go dead. |
It appears that I'm having CROW for dinner! CRAP! I just attempted to replicate the jam that took the Colt down, so I could SHOW you how a Bushmaster (et al...) would not have been stuck, due to the lack of the "extra material fusing the receiver near the rear take-down pin" (notice I didn't call it a sear block!?) :) Unfortunately, I learned through experience that even though the Bushmaster receiver I have does not fuse the receiver together at that point, it is sufficiently tight that it STILL prevented the receivers from coming apart. So, it looks like I'll be editing my post (again) to reflect this new information. And in case you were wondering how a jam could take a rifle down like this, here's how it happened. The rifle fired, and the bolt stuck in the forward position, but back just a bit so the BCG was still in the receiver extension just enough to keep the receivers from rotating open. For my pictorial presentation, I used a shoe string to "jam" the bolt from fully closing. Like this:  And it (of course) failed to rotate open:  So, I suggested he just pop out BOTH pins, and simply pull the upper forward enough to let the BCG get out of the receiver extension. Like this:  And it did move forward a little more:  But this was as far as the receivers would separate:  I knew it was the extra material in the receiver keeping the rear lug from moving forward enough to allow the BCG to come out of the receiver extension. But I thought it was specific to the Colt design, and that if this jam were to have occurred with a Bushmaster, the lug WOULD be able to freely move forward.  When I replicated the jam, it locked up on my Bushmaster as well. When I looked into the receiver, I saw the culprit. There is too much material (not much) on the right side (bottom in the pic) that is JUST thick enough to prevent the lug from moving forward.  CRAP. Looks like it didn't matter that the rifle in question was a Colt, but my Bushy would have suffered from the same fate. Argh... |
All right- the post has been edited. I took out nearly all my opinion, and just stuck to the facts. I also removed everything having to do with the Sear Block, because I now realize it's not an issue specific to Colt. I'm sorry you felt that I lost all my credibility. Better now? |
Molon- This is excellent information. I'm not sure if it needs to be addressed in such detail for a guide to buying an AR-15, vs information you would want if BUILDING your own. What do you think? Would it BENEFIT most buyers who are relative newbies, or would it just confuse the heck out of them and cause more information overload? I'm kinda on the fence about adding all this info into the original post... |
All the pics were obtained from people, thus giving me permission to link to them. The "stock" photos are only place holders. If the link dies, oh well. Hopefully they won't be needed for very long as I hope to update the post with ACTUAL pictures as soon as I get them. The only thing posted without permission was the M4 feedramps pic by AR15barrels.com and the chart, but both of those have credits in them (not to mention one is essentially a free ad!) |
I bought a Sabre barrel a few months back that had a misaligned FSB (not canted, but misaligned front to back), talked to Dave Powers at Sabre, he told me to send it back. Well when I got it back I found that they had done nothing to it  . I got my money back from PK firearms, they are good people and apologized for the problem (I sent them photos of the FSB as well). I don't know maybe Sabre is just super busy right now but I don't think I will be purchasing any more of their products for a while. I don't have any problem with getting a bad part as long as its fixed, but when you say you will fix it and then don't, don't expect any repeat business. |
Sorry to hear about your negative Sabre experience. |
Could be the answer to my 
of what to buy between CMMG, olt LE6920, or LMT
CMMG MOD4 16" M4 Profile with M16 BCG option. It has the A3 flattop upper receiver, and a carry handle. It does not come with the carry handle. |
Thanks. What is the going rate for that particular model? How much more would the Socom barrel cost? How does it compare to the Colt LE6920 in overall fit, finish, function, and reliability? Sorry for the questions, just need help making my mind up on an AR before I pull my hair and jump outta the basement window (which is ground level by the way[:))
|
|
DOOBIE - Get the CMMG rifle dude. I was in the same situation as you and after all my research, decided on the CMMG. I chose to get the CMMG 14.5" M4 with SOCOM barrel. Don't know about jwise's particular model, but on the one I am getting, the SOCOM barrel'ed rifle is the same price as the M4 profil barrel. $1075.00 without any options (comes with carry handle and A3 upper). |
All the uppers cost $525 for the most part. Go to www.cmmginc.com to find out for sure. As for how it compares to the LE6920, did you even READ this thread? Closeup pictures of both are included. Again, mine is the 16" M4 profile barrel model. I wanted it to be as identical to the 6920 as possible, so it would be an "apples to apples" comparison. |
| So whats the deal with the shrouded firing pin. My patrol carry Ar is Colt le6920. I have had it since 2003. Barrel is marked 03 . My bolt carrier does not fully shroud the firing pin and is a semi auto bolt carrier. The 6933 I also had has a m16 bolt and shrouds the pin its an 05 marked. What is the disadvantage or advantage. |
An M16 firing pin should only be put in a shrouded carrier. An AR firing pin is ok in either. |
Why is it that in the chart it shows Bushmaster doesn't stake their carrier keys when they do? |
|
Bushmaster BCGs are not properly staked. Bushmaster acknowledged this when they made the Texas DPS M-4 carbines for GT Distributors. Properly staked gas keys and castle nuts were specified in the bidding by Texas DPS. These are the only carbines that I have ever seen even being advertised that claim to be staked correctly. |
|
I have been shooting AR's and M16's for well over 20 years, Colts, FN's, Hydra-Matics, Bushies, Stags, with a Sendra thrown in for good measure. What I read was a damn good primer for a someone that probably wont get BRD, but needs a good patrol rifle on a cop w/family salary. I think you did a damn good job on it, and will pass it on to my little brother as he is contemplating his first AR. His agency seems to be hung up on the "Colt Only" bullshit (I own 3 Colts - and I still think its bullshit) but reading this and bending my ear will allow him to be a more informed purchaser. Knowledge is power. Thanks |
Combat Jack beat me to it, but no, I don't think that the BCG in the pic is staked very well at all. Better than CMT's screwdriver attempt from the top, but it doesn't look like any material from the side of the gas key is pressed against the bolt. It looks like material has just been pushed into the space between the gas key and bolt. Go to Bravo Company's website (above) for an example of what a properly staked BCG looks like.  ETA: Here's a link; http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/PhotoGallery.asp?ProductCode=BCM+Bolt+Carrier+Group+AUTO+MP |
I do see a difference. |
|
Gas Key not properly staked: i3.photobucket.com/albums/y95/jerrellwise/Gun%20Pics/RRAcloseups1.jpg I have a Rock River upper and my staking looks worse than this, it's barely dented/scored and doesn't even come close to touching the bolt heads. Is there some kind of fix for this at all or do you just pay attention to it to make sure it doesn't loosen up?? |
|
I just bought my new Bushmaster M4 Post ban, last week. here are some pics http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/sbninja/P2090006.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/sbninja/P2090010.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/sbninja/P2090012.jpg |
I didn't know Bushmaster did M4 feedramps. Are you sure thats a gunuine Bushmaster upper? |
Yep, I recently bought this particular rifle after looking at 3 other Bushmaster M4 'Post Ban's' at different shops(they all had the M4 feedramps). I actually came back to this store(4 day's later) to buy the rifle, but it was sold - But she told me they had just recieved a new shipment of ar's today. She checked, and one had come in, she opened the package in front of me. It is packaged Bushmaster. Oh, BTW the Barrel is Chrome lined also. |
|
Very informative thread to say the least and extremely helpful from a noobs perspective. I went searching for an AR a few weeks ago and continueously heard repeatedly that 'All AR are the same' and 'You only paying for the name'. I didn't buy into those theories because guns are like tools....you pay for the quality received. Like buying Black & Decker vs, FesTool Whether I mentioned the lack of M4 Rails, Chrome Plating, staking etc..etc... I was told 'I didn't need them or sure they have them. Best of all was when one shop who was trying to sell me SW MP15 and DPMS (I believe one of your advertisers) told me you only needed Chrome Plated Barrel and Chamber if you lived in an area like Florida with high humidity (BULL!) and also informed me that 'All AR's' have the same warranties (More BS). I made my decision 2 weeks ago to go with a LMT MRP CQB Defender, but I never quit looking, so even today I stopped by a shop that had a M6A2 LWRC, I asked if the Rail was M1913 and the guy told me they are all the same......most likely it was M1913 but not all rails are created equally. The more informations you have the better decision you will make.....the difference between being SOLD and making a purchase. Splended job and many thanks! |
I have read at least two different reports on this forum recently that Bushmaster is now putting M4 feedramps on its M4 clones. |
Thank you. I'm glad you found it helpful. I am jealous that you actually have a local shop that has an LWRC in stock! WOW! Those things are back-ordered by the thousands (2k, if I'm not mistaken), and I'm in the queue for another upper myself. Not sure how long I'll be waiting this time... :) |
AR Sponsor