More fragmentation is great but the trajectory is gonna go out the window (I like a nice straight trajectory).

(besides, how is this round ever going to pass the Hauge BS (hollow points) < this round is basically as explosive as it gets (try treating wounded with 100grains of lead in 150-200 pieces inside their body. AINT GONNA HAPPEN- NOTE: this is assuming a worst case shot through the torso lengthwise allowing 10-14inches of body to penetrate.

I thought Noslers were explosive; they might be nice but they hardly leave 1/4 as many pieces of shrapnel.

Quoted: (besides, how is this round ever going to pass the Hauge BS (hollow points)

Well gee...how about the 77gr, the 69gr, and the 75gr... ALL are HPBT's and are currently being used by the military.

How about the 168gr and 175gr HPBT's in 7.62x51 that are also being used?

The hollowpoint (open-tip) is a product of the manufacturing process, and is NOT designed to increase the wounding potential, thus it's ok by the Hague and JAG.

AINT GONNA HAPPEN-

Already has with the 5 rounds mentioned above.

Green0 read
www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/lawofwar/dec99-03.htm

I personally think that this is very exciting!  And while it has been posted and argued over performance theoretically possible using a 7.62x39 platform, the fact still remains we are using and going to be using the 5.56 NATO for some time to come.  (Though I think a 6mm 100-115gr projo @ 2700-3200 fps would be better but thats beside the point!)

Here's my thought, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.  At ranges exceeding the fragmenting range of a projectile, the severety of the wounds inflicted would depend on the caliber of the bullet, and the tumbling of the round inside the target.  While the cal. hasn't changed, wouldn't the tumbling of this relatively long bullet be much more destructive than the standard m855/m193 at say, 400m?  It seems to me that this round would have much better performance at all ranges than current mil. 5.56Nato.  Trajectory would be my only concern though.

Second brilliant thought:  AP?  With the relatively long bullet construction and good cross-section, can you imagine the AP ability of this round, or a similarly constructed 95-100gr steel core round?  nuff said.

Tex78

Quoted: ispchoser1, Both M193 and M855 require a relatively high impact velocity for their terminal effects to be, well, effective.   If I remember correctly, violent fragmentation only occurs when they hit at over about 2600-2700fps.  Hence their range is limited in M4 and shorter barrel lengths. The data presented here shows that the 100gr bullet remains terminally effective to a much lower impact velocity..  sound like even as slow as 2000-2200fps, it's still good - maybe lower is okay.   Doing the numbers, and taking some on faith from those who have posted or hinted at the "military-spec" loadings here, the 100gr load should be effective a ways further than M193 or M855.   However, it has been said that this round is intended for CQB primarily. -z

I don't think the fragmentation abilities of the 100gr will reach much farther than M193/855.  Yes, it may frag at much lower velocities but it also starts out at a much lower velocity.  I think the big advantage of this load is its increased frag dynamics (due to the larger surface area presented when moving sideways through the target) and wounding potential when compared to M193/855 but still within the same 200m range.

Quoted: Quoted: ispchoser1, Both M193 and M855 require a relatively high impact velocity for their terminal effects to be, well, effective.   If I remember correctly, violent fragmentation only occurs when they hit at over about 2600-2700fps.  Hence their range is limited in M4 and shorter barrel lengths. The data presented here shows that the 100gr bullet remains terminally effective to a much lower impact velocity..  sound like even as slow as 2000-2200fps, it's still good - maybe lower is okay.   Doing the numbers, and taking some on faith from those who have posted or hinted at the "military-spec" loadings here, the 100gr load should be effective a ways further than M193 or M855.   However, it has been said that this round is intended for CQB primarily. -z I don't think the fragmentation abilities of the 100gr will reach much farther than M193/855.  Yes, it may frag at much lower velocities but it also starts out at a much lower velocity.  I think the big advantage of this load is its increased frag dynamics (due to the larger surface area presented when moving sideways through the target) and wounding potential when compared to M193/855 but still within the same 200m range.

Sorry to differ with you.

100 grain has turned out FAR better.  We've got some more tests we'll put up eventually.  We've done quite a lot of range testing as well as introducing some very creative changes in the load and we now find that the current load is still fragmenting at 2050-1950fps (!!!).  Given the very favorable ballistic coefficient the round also enjoys, this means a far better fragmentation envelope than M193 not to even mention the drubbing it gives M855.  I'm not going to give out specific data now since we don't have enough for me to be comfortable standing by any specific figures right now- but I can say that effective fragmentation distance (fragments 85%+ of the time) looks to be quite a bit beyond 200m.

The actual disadvantage of the 100 grain round is it's trajectory.  Huge drop out past 400 meters.  Enough at 200+ to make shooting gel... well... interesting.

For lone actors, it's currently my round of choice- and I am VERY picky.  It's the most tissue damaging round I've seen in .223 and it meets FBI specs nicely.  This includes through heavy clothing and some light cover we've tested.

We are probably going to do some side by sides with the best 3 or four rounds we've tested so far, and based on these results we'll test the hell out of the "winner" and, personally, I'm going to stock up on that round for my own use.

This, of course, was originally the point of testing.  To find out what round actually WORKED for my needs- to cut through the hype.

Just for your reference, my criteria are:

1.  Lone actor/self defense threat model.
2.  Escape and Evasion for any encounter over 200 meters, unless "back to the walled."  In this case, however, I expect to be in a last line of defense dwelling and therefore using 7.62 (155 grain AMAX- far and away the best 7.62 for terminal effects) for those shots.  I wouldn't carry that around in a SHTF scenario though- too much bulk.
3.  Potential "close" encounters with heavy clothes and soft body armor (performance against denim/IIa and IIIa NIJ armor).
4.  Potential "close" encounters with aggressors in automobiles (performance on autoglass)
5.  1:7 barrel twist.  16" barrel- this is a personal choice based on my ability to deliver quicker followups than with 20"
6.  Ability to obtain/make at least 7500 rounds for stocking purposes and another 1000 per year for training purposes.
7.  Muzzle flash.

Perhaps an AR15.com bulk purchase will follow, if people are interested.

The other issue, of course, is the limited availability of 100 grain.  It's pretty much "load yer own" right now.  We'll see what we can do about that.

[moderatormode]I do urge people to be careful making guesses and assumptions about round performance without data.  That's how ballistics "LORE" gets started.  "I saw someone say that..." Pretty soon it becomes FACT, despite the fact that no source, supporting data, or peer review exists.  Pretty soon you have "I've got a friend in the special forces who says..."  Ugh.

Without the BC and real gel testing you can't say much about the performance of a round at range given only a velocity of fragmentation thresholds.  People look here for answers and newbies might not know any better.  Let's not perpetuate myths, ok?[/moderatormode]

WOW this stuff is impressive.

Who sells 100gr. bullets?
Who's got load data for them?

Hi folks,

I was discussing this very interesting thread with my dad the yesterday. He has a lot of handloading experience and thought I'd run it by him. His first thought was "what kind of pressures are they running?"

So I thought I'd ask this on his behalf... What are the pressures involved with this load? Blown out primers? Also, (this is my less-than-knowledgeable question) how in the WORLD did you avoid absolutely smashing the powder down? Is this the equivalent of a +P load? (a reduced powder charge with some "filler" in the case?)

TIA,
jim

DONT GET ME WRONG I love the 5.56mm!
MAN guys from the AK47 Forum are going to say that it looks like we are try to make a 7.62x39mm out of the 5.56mm!

The more I think about changeing the 5.56mm/223 into something its not I get a bad feeling?

Maybe the military should just adobt a new round/cartidge wich has a 80 to 100gr slim bullet

Put this one back up too.

Put this one back up too.   Thanks for putting the last one up too.