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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Frontier 55 grain boom and damaged extractor. *update Hornady says pound sand (Page 2 of 5)
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Interestingly, I've chronied Hornady's "Freedom" XM193, and the velocity was ~ 100 FPS lower than other full power M193s I tested. Velocity wise, it's very mild for a M193 load. So weird that it's kabooming rifles. https://www.ar15.com/forums/AR-15/5-56-and-M193-Velocity-Shoot-Off--Bonus-Part-I/16-733701/ Quoted:
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I don't handload, so I am not super familiar with the amount of powder that goes into a 5.56 case. Isn't it pretty much full? How is this Hornady ammo reaching such high pressure? Is it incorrect powder? https://www.ar15.com/forums/AR-15/5-56-and-M193-Velocity-Shoot-Off--Bonus-Part-I/16-733701/ Velocity is not an exact curve on chamber pressure. A faster powder can hit max chamber pressure, and achieve a slower velocity while doing it, compared to some other powder. This is reloading 101 stuff. |
| I ran 100 rounds of frontier this weekend. 40 rds 5.56 75gr bthp and 60 rds .223 55gr bthp. No signs of over pressure in any of the casings. They’re accurate rounds. I don’t blame Hornady in these kabooms I blame lake city. They’re the ones actually loading the stuff. It’s hornady bullets but everything else is lake city. I do not agree with how Hornady has handled some of these kabooms incidents though. Anyone that uses the term fudd does more harm to the gun community than good. |
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Thanks for the input. I am really going to be pissed if this killed my rifle. Is there a practical method to have the rifle checked for any cracked components? I can't believe Hornady would not recall this shit if this continues to happen. Quoted:
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That aside, I can't say I really recommend just throwing in a bolt and keep on firing like that. The event could have weakened or cracked your barrel extension. |
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That's rather harsh. No box, no receipt, no lot number. What are they supposed to do? There are so many shady people in the shooting world, they would go out of business 20 years ago. Besides what's the damage, a new bolt? Quoted:
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That's sucks. Fuck hornady. ETA their techs are also morons if they think carbon on a case indicates OOB. No box, no receipt, no lot number. What are they supposed to do? There are so many shady people in the shooting world, they would go out of business 20 years ago. Besides what's the damage, a new bolt? I'm about ready to write them off for future ammo purchases over this sort of thing. |
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Yet there is no reports of kabooms or over pressure with LC XM193 they load for Federal. Quoted:
Quoted: Lake city loads frontier for Hornady. It’s lake city that’s not QCing this stuff. Plus, as other have said, hornady obviously is aware of the issue with their ammo and yet continues to do nothing. I had an issue with their premium line of very expensive ammunition, and they had the same attitude. I will never buy another hornady product, there are much better ammunition types and companies out there these days anyway. |
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Update, Hornady basically told me to fuck myself because I don't have the original box with lot number. I get that having a lot number would be a huge help to them to understand the conditions under which the ammo was made but being involved in manufacturing myself, the liability of creating a defective product doesn't go away because the buyer doesn't have a receipt. If I were you, I would pursue this further. I would tell them that you are looking for a lawyer. I would expect that to change their position because from where I stand, they would have to work to defend their position and the information that they have provided so far ins't helping them. 2Hut8 |
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His could be a reload. I'm not saying it is, but with no paperwork who could say. The same goes the other way. Frontier could be at fault without the box or the paperwork. With all of the other stories about Frontier Hornady blowing up rifles floating around I would lean strongly towards an issue with with Frontier Hornady. |
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Quoted: Paperwork doesn't mean anything. He could have bought Frontier, shot it, reloaded the case, and blew up the rifle. He would have the box and the paperwork but it wouldn't be Frontier's fault. Or someone could have bought it, shot it, reloaded the case, and sold it as new. The same goes the other way. Frontier could be at fault without the box or the paperwork. With all of the other stories about Frontier Hornady blowing up rifles floating around I would lean strongly towards an issue with with Frontier Hornady. LCA loads Who supplies the brass? Who supplies the powder? Who supplies the primers? How does a bullet make a cartridge go kaboom? This ammo is being sold everywhere by the thousands and no published reports except here, no recalls. Does not add up. |
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Hornady supplies bullets LCA loads Who supplies the brass? Who supplies the powder? Who supplies the primers? How does a bullet make a cartridge go kaboom? This ammo is being sold everywhere by the thousands and no published reports except here, no recalls. Does not add up. |
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Hornady supplies bullets LCA loads Who supplies the brass? Who supplies the powder? Who supplies the primers? How does a bullet make a cartridge go kaboom? This ammo is being sold everywhere by the thousands and no published reports except here, no recalls. Does not add up. |
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Quoted: LCA makes the brass from the same case cups they use for every other 5.56/.223 round they make. The powder comes from the same stock. The primers are made at LCA. The only difference is the bullet. That’s it. And as weird as it sounds, the kabooms have to be related to something with that. |
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LCA makes the brass from the same case cups they use for every other 5.56/.223 round they make. The powder comes from the same stock. The primers are made at LCA. The only difference is the bullet. That’s it. And as weird as it sounds, the kabooms have to be related to something with that. Quoted:
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Hornady supplies bullets LCA loads Who supplies the brass? Who supplies the powder? Who supplies the primers? How does a bullet make a cartridge go kaboom? This ammo is being sold everywhere by the thousands and no published reports except here, no recalls. Does not add up. |
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Quoted: What's the source of this information? |
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Knowledge of the product...let’s leave it at that. As a point of reference to back some of that up though, look at the headstamp close up you posted on page 1. Notice the rounds circles ever so lightly pressed into various places? Compare that to recent LC brass. It’s a cartridge lot identifier...the positions and quantities of dots vary run-to-run. The entire Frontier line is Hornady projectiles loaded into a primed/powdered LC produced piece of brass. I, like others, haven’t heard of issues with the other configs (75 grain, etc.). Maybe because they’re not shot in volume as much? Or maybe there’s only an issue with the Hornady 55gr FMJ. I don’t know that. Quoted:
Quoted: What's the source of this information? I really think at this point ........if we are going to blame LC for making some of these components.......then keeping secrets about their involvement isn’t going to work. Give a source for your comments or There is no proof LC has anything to do with this. And so Hornady has the same SCAMP (?) machinery to make brass as everyone else......... again what/where is the proof LC is a part of this? |
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Quoted: Sir: I really think at this point ........if we are going to blame LC for making some of these components.......then keeping secrets about their involvement isn’t going to work. Give a source for your comments or There is no proof LC has anything to do with this. And so Hornady has the same SCAMP (?) machinery to make brass as everyone else......... again what/where is the proof LC is a part of this? https://www.gunsandammo.com/editorial/hornady-lake-city-armory-team-up-to-produce-affordable-accurate-mil-spec-ammo/247610 That all but confirms what I’ve said...produced at Lake City with Hornady projectiles. |
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Hey bud...take the knowledge and believe it, or don’t. I really don’t care. But you could try a basic internet search as well. https://www.gunsandammo.com/editorial/hornady-lake-city-armory-team-up-to-produce-affordable-accurate-mil-spec-ammo/247610 That all but confirms what I’ve said...produced at Lake City with Hornady projectiles. Quoted:
Quoted: Sir: I really think at this point ........if we are going to blame LC for making some of these components.......then keeping secrets about their involvement isn’t going to work. Give a source for your comments or There is no proof LC has anything to do with this. And so Hornady has the same SCAMP (?) machinery to make brass as everyone else......... again what/where is the proof LC is a part of this? https://www.gunsandammo.com/editorial/hornady-lake-city-armory-team-up-to-produce-affordable-accurate-mil-spec-ammo/247610 That all but confirms what I’ve said...produced at Lake City with Hornady projectiles. That’s all I needed. :) But saying “............Knowledge of the product...let’s leave it at that......” and “I read it in an article” are two different things. The first isn’t searchable on the internet, while the 2nd is. The first means nothing, the second is a source of information that we all can use. Thanks again. :) |
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Yea man, i had the same incident with Black hills ammo before. Even factory has trouble at times. But you would think they would at least want to investigate a bit. But mostly we are on our own as usual.Attached File |
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Quoted: Great thanks! That’s all I needed. :) But saying “............Knowledge of the product...let’s leave it at that......” and “I read it in an article” are two different things. The first isn’t searchable on the internet, while the 2nd is. The first means nothing, the second is a source of information that we all can use. Thanks again. :) |
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LCA makes the brass from the same case cups they use for every other 5.56/.223 round they make. The powder comes from the same stock. The primers are made at LCA. The only difference is the bullet. That’s it. And as weird as it sounds, the kabooms have to be related to something with that. Quoted:
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Hornady supplies bullets LCA loads Who supplies the brass? Who supplies the powder? Who supplies the primers? How does a bullet make a cartridge go kaboom? This ammo is being sold everywhere by the thousands and no published reports except here, no recalls. Does not add up. |
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Update, Hornady basically told me to fuck myself because I don't have the original box with lot number. https://i.imgur.com/XBKMyWA.jpg https://i.imgur.com/eUPMo4I.jpg |
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Quoted: That's rather harsh. No box, no receipt, no lot number. What are they supposed to do? There are so many shady people in the shooting world, they would go out of business 20 years ago. Besides what's the damage, a new bolt? |
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I gotta say... that amount of carbon build up is negligible, IMHO. And any allusion that the carbon build up contributed to a out of battery discharge is nonsense , based on your photos. As for the lack of a lot number, that would help considerably. No way for the store to be able to track a Lot # of an ammo shipment ? ... even with Hornady help ? Do ammo manufacturers record what lot of ammo is shipped where ? Probably not... but... Can you dumpster dive for the OEM box ?... any possibility ? And I am surprised Hornady didn't ask about the 8 left over rounds. |
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Quoted: Knowledge of the product...let’s leave it at that. As a point of reference to back some of that up though, look at the headstamp close up you posted on page 1. Notice the rounds circles ever so lightly pressed into various places? Compare that to recent LC brass. It’s a cartridge lot identifier...the positions and quantities of dots vary run-to-run. The entire Frontier line is Hornady projectiles loaded into a primed/powdered LC produced piece of brass. I, like others, haven’t heard of issues with the other configs (75 grain, etc.). Maybe because they’re not shot in volume as much? Or maybe there’s only an issue with the Hornady 55gr FMJ. I don’t know that. 
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Your "knowledge of the product" is suspect, if you think the SCAMP dots in the headstamps are lot numbers. The SCAMP dots only identify which station on the machinery the case was formed on, nothing else. Quoted:
Quoted: Knowledge of the product...let’s leave it at that. As a point of reference to back some of that up though, look at the headstamp close up you posted on page 1. Notice the rounds circles ever so lightly pressed into various places? Compare that to recent LC brass. It’s a cartridge lot identifier...the positions and quantities of dots vary run-to-run. The entire Frontier line is Hornady projectiles loaded into a primed/powdered LC produced piece of brass. I, like others, haven’t heard of issues with the other configs (75 grain, etc.). Maybe because they’re not shot in volume as much? Or maybe there’s only an issue with the Hornady 55gr FMJ. I don’t know that. |
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Quoted: shake one. I've tested a few loads from FM and fed. AE both were past max load ranges for H335 then again they may use wc844. the one from FM sure looked like h335. They aren't compressed loads theres a little shake in there. When I contacted FM about the overcharge, they emailed me right away. When I asked them why they were charged past max they stopped contacting me. |
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Quoted: Interestingly, I've chronied Hornady's "Freedom" XM193, and the velocity was ~ 100 FPS lower than other full power M193s I tested. Velocity wise, it's very mild for a M193 load. So weird that it's kabooming rifles. https://www.ar15.com/forums/AR-15/5-56-and-M193-Velocity-Shoot-Off--Bonus-Part-I/16-733701/ |
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I'm throwing a kink. I have seen this happen from under charged (powder) loads than from over charged. Seem several pistols and couple of rifles blown "up" split chambers and it was to under charged cases. Had two on film and one was a recreation trying to prove it wasn't what caused it. Blew up a S&W 686 that time. For what it's worth! Try to stick to Military loads, personal preference, and never had a problem With LC. Who runs the machines when they are loading Frontier, who does quality check? 10's of thousands of rounds of LC Military and I have never had a problem, in any caliber. Sorry for your problem, we had some people injured when ours blew (not AR15 type ) but not serious. I think I shall not bother with Frontier myself so thank for the info. |
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I'm throwing a kink. I have seen this happen from under charged (powder) loads than from over charged. this was a way over-pressurized cartridge just like the rest of the Frontier KBs. rifle powders rarely will detonate with a short charge anyways, pistol powders on the other hand |
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Remember that thread from a guy who tore down a bunch of Frontier ammo and found cases that has VERY tightly seated bullets?
An over-crimp can push chamber pressures to the point of destruction. Even if everything else is right, bullet crimp is critical. Not too much or kaboom can and will happen. Hornady needs to man up and take responsibility for this bullshit. Every time I hear of a kaboom...it's Frontier ammo. I won't touch that shit. Neither should you. |
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An over-crimp can push chamber pressures to the point of destruction. Even if everything else is right, bullet crimp is critical. Not too much or kaboom can and will happen. after reading all the linked threads about this ammo I am betting crap brass, or a flaw in the processing of the brass. |
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An over-crimp can push chamber pressures to the point of destruction. Even if everything else is right, bullet crimp is critical. Not too much or kaboom can and will happen. |
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I thought Frontier just uses Hornady bullets the rest by frontier. https://www.hornady.com/ammunition/frontier#!/ |
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I had bought some of the 68gr BTHP Frontier before I read this thread.
I have emailed Hornady with the lot # to get their confirmation that it is safe to shoot. I also emailed the online vendor I bought it from, this was their response: I have never had issues reported to me on stock I sold. I believe when they first started loading that ammo the loaded to the upper end of the pressure range in order to try to reach published velocities, when a factory does that on heavy bullet loads they start having pressure issues with a small percentage of users, typically when they have a 223 Wylde chamber and 18" barrel, that get on the internet and leaves an ever lasting negative impression, but its not a current issue to be concerned with nor a common issue for users even at that time. IMI and magtech have had the same issues as well with the heavy bullet 5.56, if they load 5.56 to full mil-spec pressure with a 68 to 77 grain bullet there are going to be some guns that just cannot handle it. I believe they had Lake city reduce the load just slightly a while back to make it more flexible in a wide variety of weapons. It should not have any pressure problems.
All the Frontier 5.56 and 223 has always been made at Lake City, the factory just pushed the pressure to close to the limit at first to try to reach the published velocities. I know they made adjustments a while ago so it should be all good in just about any configuration of AR15 you can put it in, |
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Quoted: Lake city loads frontier for Hornady. It’s lake city that’s not QCing this stuff. |
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I had bought some of the 68gr BTHP Frontier before I read this thread. I have emailed Hornady with the lot # to get their confirmation that it is safe to shoot. I also emailed the online vendor I bought it from, this was their response: The Hornady 68 gr bullet is most assuredly NOT a 1 gr light Sierra 69 gr bullet design. As far as I can tell, Hornady's 68, is their 75 gr jacket, with less lead in it. Which is a double-suck, because it's so long, the damned thing won't stabilize in a 1/9 BBL. It won't keyhole, but after spending days and a whole bunch of different loads testing that stupid bullet, I finally figured out why it won't group in a 1/9 BBL, but does OK in a 20" 1/8 BBL, and it came down to stability. It's too long for a 1/9 to stabilize well enough, for it to group like a match bullet. Berger has a great on-line calculator, that helped me figure this out eventually. But wait, we're not done - by not filling up their stupid-long jacket, the lead is going to be harder to consistently put in the bullet evenly and uniformly. Which means you're more at risk getting some of the bullets off-balance and wobbling in flight a little bit. None of this shows up as keyholing, but it does show up as not very good grouping; especially if you have any 1/9 BBLs. Hornady get's a lot of stuff right - but their 68 gr bullet; ain't one of them. That, and their Frontier ammo isn't one of them. And their follow-up on their Frontier F'up, is very very much not one of them. But aside from that, Hornady gets a lot right
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See how the web of the casing looks like it's been converted to a belted magnum? That's a classic sign of firing out of battery - the case was not completely in the chamber when it fired. Otherwise that part of the case would have been supported. A properly functioning AR15 cannot fire out of battery, but that casing sure looks like it fired out of battery. There's likely some other problem. |
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Second this ! Quoted:
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See how the web of the casing looks like it's been converted to a belted magnum? That's a classic sign of firing out of battery - the case was not completely in the chamber when it fired. Otherwise that part of the case would have been supported. A properly functioning AR15 cannot fire out of battery, but that casing sure looks like it fired out of battery. There's likely some other problem. This is classic overpressure or bad brass, and the rib mentioned is from the unsupported part of the case when the bolt is locked. Almost all overpressure kabooms show this same rib. |
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a crimp will NOT KB a a gun, I don't care how well it was done. There is not enough tension in brass over a the area of the bullet to make a difference. Id be surprised if its more than a couple hundred psi after reading all the linked threads about this ammo I am betting crap brass, or a flaw in the processing of the brass. Quoted:
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An over-crimp can push chamber pressures to the point of destruction. Even if everything else is right, bullet crimp is critical. Not too much or kaboom can and will happen. after reading all the linked threads about this ammo I am betting crap brass, or a flaw in the processing of the brass. 
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Hornady supplies bullets LCA loads Who supplies the brass? Who supplies the powder? Who supplies the primers? How does a bullet make a cartridge go kaboom? This ammo is being sold everywhere by the thousands and no published reports except here, no recalls. Does not add up. |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Frontier 55 grain boom and damaged extractor. *update Hornady says pound sand (Page 2 of 5)
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