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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Gas-port Erosion of AR-15 Barrels (Page 2 of 3)
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I'm glad I don't care too much about accuracy from my AR platforms. Chrome lined barrel, free float handguard of good quality (BCM, MI, DD)... That'll get center mass hits out to 300 yards fairly easily. Yup, the barrel should be considered a consumable after all. |
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Typical square-range mentality. How often does an armed criminal/enemy combatant who is intent on inflicting death or grave bodily harm on a law abiding citizen/law enforcement officer/soldier, stand out in the open, squarely facing you, with his hands at his side and holding perfectly still while allowing you to shoot at him and all the while not shooting back at you? The Front Sight target pictured below is an “accurate representation of human dimensions taken from medical cadaver studies and 3000 x-ray studies.” The target represents the aiming area that you would have available to shoot at on a criminal/enemy combatant who is shooting at you from behind cover. As you can see, the room for aiming/shooting error on the part of the law abiding citizen/LEO/solder is far smaller with this target than that depicted in typical law enforcement/military training targets; particularly since our objective is not just "to hit the target,” but to make multiple center of upper thoracic cavity/cranio-occular hits (depicted by the “5” scoring zones on the target below). https://app.box.com/shared/static/xkl2x62g0lrqi9g4osukazrcdh7a9kqb.jpg Let's see you make a first round hit on either of the 5-zones, 10 times in a row, on the above target from a distance of 300 yards using an AR-15 that you "don't care too much about accuracy from." ..... Quoted:
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I'm glad I don't care too much about accuracy from my AR platforms. Chrome lined barrel, free float handguard of good quality (BCM, MI, DD)... That'll get center mass hits out to 300 yards fairly easily. Typical square-range mentality. How often does an armed criminal/enemy combatant who is intent on inflicting death or grave bodily harm on a law abiding citizen/law enforcement officer/soldier, stand out in the open, squarely facing you, with his hands at his side and holding perfectly still while allowing you to shoot at him and all the while not shooting back at you? The Front Sight target pictured below is an “accurate representation of human dimensions taken from medical cadaver studies and 3000 x-ray studies.” The target represents the aiming area that you would have available to shoot at on a criminal/enemy combatant who is shooting at you from behind cover. As you can see, the room for aiming/shooting error on the part of the law abiding citizen/LEO/solder is far smaller with this target than that depicted in typical law enforcement/military training targets; particularly since our objective is not just "to hit the target,” but to make multiple center of upper thoracic cavity/cranio-occular hits (depicted by the “5” scoring zones on the target below). https://app.box.com/shared/static/xkl2x62g0lrqi9g4osukazrcdh7a9kqb.jpg Let's see you make a first round hit on either of the 5-zones, 10 times in a row, on the above target from a distance of 300 yards using an AR-15 that you "don't care too much about accuracy from." ..... Yep... "square range mentality"... Got me... I am pretty confident that my rifle could easily hit the described target. I run a 1x optic on it. It might take a few shots, but the target would have holes in it. Square range mentality is thinking you are good enough in a combat situation for your rifle to be the main factor in whether you hit the target... Square range is calipers and sandbags. The Military runs pretty "inaccurate" setups according to arfcom, chrome lined barrels, not free floated most of the time... And they are very effective at engaging insurgents. My recent AR build isn't all about accuracy, I can typically hit what I'm aiming at from various shooting positions with a 1x red dot.. If I wan't to worry about super precision accuracy I have bolt guns to mess with. Realistically a 1.5-2.5 MOA accurate AR15 is better than most shooters would be in a combat situation. |
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Molon, thanks for another useful and informative post!
If you have the opportunity to do so in the near future, I (and a gaggle of others I'm sure) would like to see a comparison between chrome lined and melonited barrels of similar design...accuracy, durability, throat and gas port erosion, etc. We seem to have a lot of discussions here about the pros and cons of each, and while we have decades of data and experience with chrome lining and phosphate treatment, we have little data and only a short time with melonite as it concerns firearms. BCGs are another part to look at here with the advent of melonite units now readily available from several suppliers. Any chance we might see this? Thanks! |
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I am pretty confident that my rifle could easily hit the described target. I run a 1x optic on it. It might take a few shots, but the target would have holes in it. I see you ignored the part about making "first round hits." If it will take you "a few shots" to do it, then it must not be as easy as you claim that it is. Put up or shut up. ... |
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I see you ignored the part about making "first round hits." If it will take you "a few shots" to do it, then it must not be as easy as you claim that it is. Put up or shut up. ... Quoted:
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I am pretty confident that my rifle could easily hit the described target. I run a 1x optic on it. It might take a few shots, but the target would have holes in it. I see you ignored the part about making "first round hits." If it will take you "a few shots" to do it, then it must not be as easy as you claim that it is. Put up or shut up. ... The target will be much, much, much smaller for the second shot...... |
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Square range mentality is thinking you are good enough in a combat situation for your rifle to be the main factor in whether you hit the target... Fail. Square range mentality is thinking that shooting at unrealistically large targets in a non-stressful situation on a one-way range means that you will "easily" be able to make the one and only shot that you might get at a realistically sized target, that will be shooting at you from behind cover or moving and all while you are under extreme stress and shooting from "various" field positions with a non-magnifed sight. ... |
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The Military runs pretty "inaccurate" setups according to arfcom, chrome lined barrels, not free floated most of the time... And they are very effective at engaging insurgents. More fail. The US Military expends thousands of rounds to hit just a single insurgent. ... |
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Molon, thanks for another useful and informative post! If you have the opportunity to do so in the near future, I (and a gaggle of others I'm sure) would like to see a comparison between chrome lined and melonited barrels of similar design...accuracy, durability, throat and gas port erosion, etc. We seem to have a lot of discussions here about the pros and cons of each, and while we have decades of data and experience with chrome lining and phosphate treatment, we have little data and only a short time with melonite as it concerns firearms. https://app.box.com/shared/static/0duvrqx9s2drx7l5g0u0vl22l1y9u3in.jpg .... Ballistic Advantage 4150 QPQ...exactly what I would like to see tested too. |
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More fail. The US Military expends thousands of rounds to hit just a single insurgent. ... Quoted:
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The Military runs pretty "inaccurate" setups according to arfcom, chrome lined barrels, not free floated most of the time... And they are very effective at engaging insurgents. More fail. The US Military expends thousands of rounds to hit just a single insurgent. ... Must be the worn out barrels? |
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what was the heat factor? Quoted:
what was the heat factor? high. rate of fire in the 10,000 round test? high. Their firing schedule was severe. On the midlength that they switched to to test Tula ammo, they set the plastic handguards on fire. They put it in a muddy puddle to cool off. There's video on youtube. |
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I like to call it craquelure.
https://app.box.com/shared/static/6e21vccfske777q0s5x8ww8gx99vkfaj.jpg Quoted:
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That gator hide checking in the chrome lining that far from the chamber says yes. I like to call it craquelure.
https://app.box.com/shared/static/6e21vccfske777q0s5x8ww8gx99vkfaj.jpg That's a borescope photo? It looks exactly like the Photoshop effect of the same name. |
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That's a borescope photo? Of course not. It looks exactly like the Photoshop effect of the same name. Where do you think I got the name from? Quoted:
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That gator hide checking in the chrome lining that far from the chamber says yes. I like to call it craquelure.
https://app.box.com/shared/static/6e21vccfske777q0s5x8ww8gx99vkfaj.jpg That's a borescope photo? Of course not. It looks exactly like the Photoshop effect of the same name. Where do you think I got the name from? |
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Must be the worn out barrels? More running of the mouth and still failing to post data from you. I'm still waiting for you to post your video of you making consistent, first round hits at 300 yards on the 1.6 MOA target that I posted, using your AR-15 with a chrome lined barrel and a non-magnified sight and shooting from "various" field positions, since you claimed that you could "easily" do it. Again, put up or shut up. ... |
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Must be the worn out barrels? More running of the mouth and still failing to post data from you. I'm still waiting for you to post your video of you making consistent, first round hits at 300 yards on the 1.6 MOA target that I posted, using your AR-15 with a chrome lined barrel and a non-magnified sight, since you claimed that you could "easily" do it. Again, put up or shut up. ... For arguments sake.. Its hard as hell. What size was your target? ... |
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Must be the worn out barrels? More running of the mouth and still failing to post data from you. I'm still waiting for you to post your video of you making consistent, first round hits at 300 yards on the 1.6 MOA target that I posted, using your AR-15 with a chrome lined barrel and a non-magnified sight, since you claimed that you could "easily" do it. Again, put up or shut up. ... For arguments sake.. Its hard as hell. Favor a little further right and come up about .2 mils... |
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Ballistic Advantage 4150 QPQ...exactly what I would like to see tested too. Quoted:
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Molon, thanks for another useful and informative post! If you have the opportunity to do so in the near future, I (and a gaggle of others I'm sure) would like to see a comparison between chrome lined and melonited barrels of similar design...accuracy, durability, throat and gas port erosion, etc. We seem to have a lot of discussions here about the pros and cons of each, and while we have decades of data and experience with chrome lining and phosphate treatment, we have little data and only a short time with melonite as it concerns firearms. https://app.box.com/shared/static/0duvrqx9s2drx7l5g0u0vl22l1y9u3in.jpg .... Ballistic Advantage 4150 QPQ...exactly what I would like to see tested too. It's now on The List, but I probably won't get to the testing of that barrel until spring/summer. .. |
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Thanks for the excellent report Molon. It's great to have you back.
Quick question: I'm putting a stainless barrel on my (kinda) precision/recce rifle build and am wondering if rate of fire wears out the gas port faster than amount of fire? I'd like for this rifle to be able to do double duty between more precision shooting and higher rate of fire, up close stuff. "Double taps" and that sort of thing. But I don't want to ruin my barrel for the longer ranges. |
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consistent, first round hits at 300 yards on the 1.6 MOA target that I posted, using your AR-15 with a chrome lined barrel and a non-magnified sight and shooting from "various" field positions ... And here I got ranted at by someone a few months ago for suggesting that more people should actually go out and try something like this.
I frequently shoot at a 2 MOA steel target at those distances. Even at 300, combine the effects of wind with the mechanical accuracy of your rifle and ammo and goofy position, and it can throw a wrench into your plans of consistent first round hits. |
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A Core15 16" carbine, chrome-lined barrel with 319 rounds through it. <a href="http://s1291.photobucket.com/user/HighpowerRifleBrony/media/PICT0014_zpsybbz60iq.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b541/HighpowerRifleBrony/PICT0014_zpsybbz60iq.jpg</a> It's really something just how soon the gas port erosion starts with the carbine-length gas systems. ... |
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Quoted: It's really something just how soon the gas port erosion starts with the carbine-length gas systems. Quoted: Quoted: A Core15 16" carbine, chrome-lined barrel with 319 rounds through it. <a href="http://s1291.photobucket.com/user/HighpowerRifleBrony/media/PICT0014_zpsybbz60iq.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b541/HighpowerRifleBrony/PICT0014_zpsybbz60iq.jpg</a> It's really something just how soon the gas port erosion starts with the carbine-length gas systems. I was more impressed by the DPMS. Hard to compare since I don't have a before photo, but the erosion seems tame for that many rounds through it. |
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Quoted: It's really something just how soon the gas port erosion starts with the carbine-length gas systems. Quoted: Quoted: A Core15 16" carbine, chrome-lined barrel with 319 rounds through it. <a href="http://s1291.photobucket.com/user/HighpowerRifleBrony/media/PICT0014_zpsybbz60iq.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b541/HighpowerRifleBrony/PICT0014_zpsybbz60iq.jpg</a> It's really something just how soon the gas port erosion starts with the carbine-length gas systems. Molon, curious about your thoughts on this. I've got a DD MK18, which has a gas port larger than the .mil version. I believe this is the same upper the .mil uses with that one exception. Initially this seemed to be a good thing due to the commercial port size being more conducive to a wider range of ammo types (weaker loads in particular). So far the guns been exceptionally reliable. 2K-3K rounds down the pipe so far. Given how rapidly ports erode, and given the already larger size ports on the commercial DD MK18 guns, would the longevity of these barrels be a real concern by that virtue alone? Mine is unsuppressed and will never see FA. I guess I'm just not sure exactly how much erosion would need to take place before it actually becomes a problem. Might not be a big deal, might be.....thoughts? |
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This was a 10.5 carbine after 3000 rds. http://www.adcofirearms.com/junkpics/cutport2.jpg ETA: this barrel was ground in half Thanks for posting that. ... |
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Do any of you think GPE/barrel wear affects POI enough to where an optic should be re-zeroed after a certain amount of rounds? How many would be a good rule of thumb? I would venture to guess that confirming your zero peiodically is probably a good idea, especially in a duty/defensive carbine. |
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Quoted: I imagine if it were Gort, the 5-zone would be narrower. ![]() https://app.box.com/shared/static/abm91q40zpscw3gjqizjxms5ucxozhaj.jpg .... Quoted: Quoted: Hey Molon...isn't that Gort from "The Day The Earth Stood Still"?...the original...of course. I imagine if it were Gort, the 5-zone would be narrower. ![]() https://app.box.com/shared/static/abm91q40zpscw3gjqizjxms5ucxozhaj.jpg .... |
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Quoted: Do any of you think GPE/barrel wear affects POI enough to where an optic should be re-zeroed after a certain amount of rounds? How many would be a good rule of thumb? I think somewhere around the 3,500 round mark I noticed that my 600 yard zero required 2 more MOA than when the barrel was new. It crept up. Anytime I notice shots way off call, I evaluate if there needs to be a shooter adjustment or a gun adjustment. |
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Someone asked if adjustable gas ports have an effect on port erosion. Imagine the port choked at the top now. That creates resistance to restrict gas flow. With every action, there is some side-effect, and in this case, choking the port increases erosion. Also, another design approach that is interesting some of you will recognize. http://ar15barrels.com/tech/mrp-gas-port.jpg Why fight nature when you can simply accommodate it? |
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I wonder if, in the coming years, a non-mil-spec option will be gas ports drilled at angles to prevent such expedient erosion?
I'm no gun smith, but it seems to stand to reason that a gas port - as long as it opens at the right place on the barrel at the right diameter - could be drilled at an angle to work with the flow of gasses, and to reduce the erosion on the front corner. At the very least some barrel company should attempt it and test it. |
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I wonder if, in the coming years, a non-mil-spec option will be gas ports drilled at angles to prevent such expedient erosion? I'm no gun smith, but it seems to stand to reason that a gas port - as long as it opens at the right place on the barrel at the right diameter - could be drilled at an angle to work with the flow of gasses, and to reduce the erosion on the front corner. At the very least some barrel company should attempt it and test it. I think MicroMoa does this |
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I wonder if, in the coming years, a non-mil-spec option will be gas ports drilled at angles to prevent such expedient erosion? I'm no gun smith, but it seems to stand to reason that a gas port - as long as it opens at the right place on the barrel at the right diameter - could be drilled at an angle to work with the flow of gasses, and to reduce the erosion on the front corner. At the very least some barrel company should attempt it and test it. Did you see LRRPF52's post above? ... |
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Someone asked if adjustable gas ports have an effect on port erosion. Imagine the port choked at the top now. That creates resistance to restrict gas flow. With every action, there is some side-effect, and in this case, choking the port increases erosion. Also, another design approach that is interesting some of you will recognize. http://ar15barrels.com/tech/mrp-gas-port.jpg Quoted:
Someone asked if adjustable gas ports have an effect on port erosion. Imagine the port choked at the top now. That creates resistance to restrict gas flow. With every action, there is some side-effect, and in this case, choking the port increases erosion. Also, another design approach that is interesting some of you will recognize. http://ar15barrels.com/tech/mrp-gas-port.jpg I was going to identify but crap I already asked. I wonder what testing LMT did with this - like angle, port size, barrel steel, etc. Quoted:
Good thread. I'd like to see a view of LMT angled port also. Also the view on a melonited barrel might be interesting. To add to this an angled gas port which is ported in a groove on a melonited poly-rifled barrel would be intriguing. |
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Typical square-range mentality. How often does an armed criminal/enemy combatant who is intent on inflicting death or grave bodily harm on a law abiding citizen/law enforcement officer/soldier, stand out in the open, squarely facing you, with his hands at his side and holding perfectly still while allowing you to shoot at him and all the while not shooting back at you? The Front Sight target pictured below is an “accurate representation of human dimensions taken from medical cadaver studies and 3000 x-ray studies.” The target represents the aiming area that you would have available to shoot at on a criminal/enemy combatant who is shooting at you from behind cover. As you can see, the room for aiming/shooting error on the part of the law abiding citizen/LEO/solder is far smaller with this target than that depicted in typical law enforcement/military training targets; particularly since our objective is not just "to hit the target,” but to make multiple center of upper thoracic cavity/cranio-occular hits (depicted by the “5” scoring zones on the target below). https://app.box.com/shared/static/xkl2x62g0lrqi9g4osukazrcdh7a9kqb.jpg Let's see you make a first round hit on either of the 5-zones on the above target, 10 times in a row, from a distance of 300 yards using an AR-15 that you "don't care too much about accuracy from." ..... Quoted:
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I'm glad I don't care too much about accuracy from my AR platforms. Chrome lined barrel, free float handguard of good quality (BCM, MI, DD)... That'll get center mass hits out to 300 yards fairly easily. Typical square-range mentality. How often does an armed criminal/enemy combatant who is intent on inflicting death or grave bodily harm on a law abiding citizen/law enforcement officer/soldier, stand out in the open, squarely facing you, with his hands at his side and holding perfectly still while allowing you to shoot at him and all the while not shooting back at you? The Front Sight target pictured below is an “accurate representation of human dimensions taken from medical cadaver studies and 3000 x-ray studies.” The target represents the aiming area that you would have available to shoot at on a criminal/enemy combatant who is shooting at you from behind cover. As you can see, the room for aiming/shooting error on the part of the law abiding citizen/LEO/solder is far smaller with this target than that depicted in typical law enforcement/military training targets; particularly since our objective is not just "to hit the target,” but to make multiple center of upper thoracic cavity/cranio-occular hits (depicted by the “5” scoring zones on the target below). https://app.box.com/shared/static/xkl2x62g0lrqi9g4osukazrcdh7a9kqb.jpg Let's see you make a first round hit on either of the 5-zones on the above target, 10 times in a row, from a distance of 300 yards using an AR-15 that you "don't care too much about accuracy from." ..... I searched for that Front Sight target but had no luck finding. Do you happen to have a source for this Molon? |
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Yep... "square range mentality"... Got me... I am pretty confident that my rifle could easily hit the described target. I run a 1x optic on it. It might take a few shots, but the target would have holes in it. Square range mentality is thinking you are good enough in a combat situation for your rifle to be the main factor in whether you hit the target... Square range is calipers and sandbags. The Military runs pretty "inaccurate" setups according to arfcom, chrome lined barrels, not free floated most of the time... And they are very effective at engaging insurgents. My recent AR build isn't all about accuracy, I can typically hit what I'm aiming at from various shooting positions with a 1x red dot.. If I wan't to worry about super precision accuracy I have bolt guns to mess with. Realistically a 1.5-2.5 MOA accurate AR15 is better than most shooters would be in a combat situation. Quoted:
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I'm glad I don't care too much about accuracy from my AR platforms. Chrome lined barrel, free float handguard of good quality (BCM, MI, DD)... That'll get center mass hits out to 300 yards fairly easily. Typical square-range mentality. How often does an armed criminal/enemy combatant who is intent on inflicting death or grave bodily harm on a law abiding citizen/law enforcement officer/soldier, stand out in the open, squarely facing you, with his hands at his side and holding perfectly still while allowing you to shoot at him and all the while not shooting back at you? The Front Sight target pictured below is an “accurate representation of human dimensions taken from medical cadaver studies and 3000 x-ray studies.” The target represents the aiming area that you would have available to shoot at on a criminal/enemy combatant who is shooting at you from behind cover. As you can see, the room for aiming/shooting error on the part of the law abiding citizen/LEO/solder is far smaller with this target than that depicted in typical law enforcement/military training targets; particularly since our objective is not just "to hit the target,” but to make multiple center of upper thoracic cavity/cranio-occular hits (depicted by the “5” scoring zones on the target below). https://app.box.com/shared/static/xkl2x62g0lrqi9g4osukazrcdh7a9kqb.jpg Let's see you make a first round hit on either of the 5-zones, 10 times in a row, on the above target from a distance of 300 yards using an AR-15 that you "don't care too much about accuracy from." ..... Yep... "square range mentality"... Got me... I am pretty confident that my rifle could easily hit the described target. I run a 1x optic on it. It might take a few shots, but the target would have holes in it. Square range mentality is thinking you are good enough in a combat situation for your rifle to be the main factor in whether you hit the target... Square range is calipers and sandbags. The Military runs pretty "inaccurate" setups according to arfcom, chrome lined barrels, not free floated most of the time... And they are very effective at engaging insurgents. My recent AR build isn't all about accuracy, I can typically hit what I'm aiming at from various shooting positions with a 1x red dot.. If I wan't to worry about super precision accuracy I have bolt guns to mess with. Realistically a 1.5-2.5 MOA accurate AR15 is better than most shooters would be in a combat situation. look pal, no one here is interested in your sub-par justification for being a dirt shooter. please take your mental constipation to the GD forum. |
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I think MicroMoa does this Quoted:
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I wonder if, in the coming years, a non-mil-spec option will be gas ports drilled at angles to prevent such expedient erosion? I'm no gun smith, but it seems to stand to reason that a gas port - as long as it opens at the right place on the barrel at the right diameter - could be drilled at an angle to work with the flow of gasses, and to reduce the erosion on the front corner. At the very least some barrel company should attempt it and test it. I think MicroMoa does this Unfamiliar with them, so looked them up. They do them angled to the muzzle instead of like LMT to chamber to apparently allow an easier transition into the gas port and then decrease port diameter accordingly. A smaller port should equal a smaller venturi at the port hence slower erosion |
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Someone asked if adjustable gas ports have an effect on port erosion. Imagine the port choked at the top now. That creates resistance to restrict gas flow. With every action, there is some side-effect, and in this case, choking the port increases erosion. Also, another design approach that is interesting some of you will recognize. http://ar15barrels.com/tech/mrp-gas-port.jpg LRRPF52: Do you know if that MRP barrel was cut for a carbine or midlength port? I did the same thing preparing my 16" midlength MRP for whatever ideas I might have to use it for.
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Yes. That was using the same brass, bullets, powder charge, OAL, and I think primers as well. Quoted:
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Elevation only, correct? Yes. That was using the same brass, bullets, powder charge, OAL, and I think primers as well. Did you happen to chronograph the load when the barrel was new and again when you had to start adjusting the elevation on your sights? ... |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Gas-port Erosion of AR-15 Barrels (Page 2 of 3)
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