The SAAMI Maximum Average Pressure rating for 6.8 SPC is 55,000psi, which really should be 53,600psi like Hodgdon's did all their testing at.

As far as powder manufacturers go, Hodgdon's is renowned for making the most accurate and consistent powders, and has the most experience dealing with AR15 pressure containment because they also do the IMR line of powders.

If you look across 6.8 data, you'll see:

Hodgdon's uses a MAP of 53,600psi
SAAMI published 55,000psi
Western uses up to 58,850psi

Hodgdon's uses 50,000psi for the 6.5 Grendel, which is what Grendel was designed around from the start.

I would recommend studying more, and attacking my character less, because so far, you've been wrong about everything.  Put less trust in that caustic troll, and learn more about the engineering behind how these things work.

so who sells the best 6.5 extractor?i have odin works bcg.s in my grendels.should i just buy one from them?or someone else?...i dont claim to be a smart man or live where i can shoot 400 plus yards,but to me both cartridges seem about the same.at least with factory ammo....the only difference i notice is that the 6.8 seems to have a little more felt recoil.

If I had the money I'd buy the enhanced one from JP Enterprises.  Buy once cry once kind of a deal.

Im wrong about nothing. Accept perhaps trying to reason with you.

Lets let this thread go back to what the OP intended.

Quick thread statistics update!!

Yama_Raja has used 2,117 characters to not change anyone's mind
AmericanSentinalK9 has used 4,220 characters to not change anyone's mind
LRRPF52 has used 10,396 characters to not change anyone's mind

Everyone get those numbers up you can be included in the next installment!!

I think I've found my true calling

I had one happen with an old AA barrel/bolt combo. That was with the first chamber design, though.

I cannot speak for anyone else, but as far as I am concerned...no one has anything to do with why I post here, except me...and no one has anything to do with my responses to you except me and you.

I don't claim to be an expert, but man...you post a lot of false information...and a lot of outdated information...and a lot of cherry picked information...and personally, I think it is because you are trying to sell 6.5 reloading manuals, so you promote the round.

Both the 6.5 and the 6.8 are fine rounds and guns, but the claims you make about one and against the other are simple put not objective. If you were objective, you won't deny so many facts on the issue. You blame someone else for this nonsense, but I have to ask...have you ever looked in the mirror?

You don't get to attack the character of others and then not have your character attacked. It doesn't work that way. You made your bed...no one else.

58+K is supported by Western and tested and proven by many SPC-II shooters. The others are for old outdated data when the SAAMI chamber was the norm...and you know that is not the norm today.

Bolts I have been using dating back to 2009 and 2013:

AA standard bolt, thousands of rounds including multiple pressure ladders with MLGS 16" barrel.  Zero problems

PF/Maxim nitrided bolts, thousands of rounds including pressure ladders with several MLGS 18" barrels.  Zero problems

PF/Maxim nitrided in 22" RLGS......zero problems

Just got the LaRue complete rifle and have only been to the range once with it.  Not expecting any problems.

I also have the Monster logo'd bolt from the group buy and an AA Hard Use bolt I've never used.  Not sure which one will go into my 12", don't really care.

I certainly wouldn't get a bolt from Model 1 Sales or lower end brands like that for 5.56 even, let alone Grendel.  They've been breaking bolts in 7.62x39 as a feature.

The extractor in the OP was simply not made correctly.

Holy crap, I just saw this.

You need to inform any potential military and government agencies that you're going to be broadcasting their presence on the internet when they witness any testing or demonstrations.

Freaking major failure on OPSEC.  Anyone reading this who knows is just shaking their heads right now.

I challenge you to demonstrate where I've attacked your character.

I just re-read the entire thread, and can't find anything remotely approaching a personal or character attack on you.

I've lost count of how many times you've called me a liar or accused me of having bias based on sales of reloading handbooks.

And 5 members that have joined since 2017 with low post counts, but all covering down on this thread with strong opinions on 6.5 Grendel or me....

I'm here for the technical discussions, which is how it's been for me from the start.

Who wants to bet we have at least 2 re-treads in this very thread?

Oh that's rich. Cry OPSEC but want me to reveal recent info I have on your bread & butter round.

I never asked you to reveal anything because unlike most, I actually practice OPSEC.

Notice in the thread that I never asked for your claimed source, nor did I discuss any of mine, nor did I send a PM asking.

Also, I don't make my "bread and butter" on 6.5 Grendel.  The service project that the 6.5 Grendel Handbooks have been were only possible because I make my bread and butter with other products and services.

What thinking person in 2017 believes there are margins on reloading handbooks?  From what the big companies even have told me, they are loss-leaders for their bullets, yet you still have people that attack my character relentlessly claiming my factual statements about technical information are biased because I'm trying to turn a profit on reloading handbooks.

Go run the numbers on what it takes to research, test, compile, gain permissions from manufacturers (unlike the cheap little pamphlets that photocopy data and print without permissions), format, edit, publish, print, store, process, and ship handbooks with the quality of paper and covers we chose, with the binding we chose.  It has been a labor of love, yet people with zero knowledge of what the numbers are make these claims over and over just because they have a bone to pick with 6.5 Grendel, and heard the false accusation from some sociopathic banned vendor who has openly called for 6.8 guys to come to AR15.com and cause trouble for the site.

Holy shit there is alot of drama going on here...

I dont know LRRP52. I couldnt pick his face out of a line up if my life depended on it.

But I've seen his posts over the years I've been a member here, and I havent seen anything that supports the bias he's being accused of.

I dont own a Grendel. I dont own a 6.8. But I'm interested in learning about both of these calibers.

Some of y'all need to stop derailing/hijacking the thread, and either contribute or go start a Pit thread cause all you're doing here is shitting up this thread.

Thought I would chime in again since I rekindled the thread.

I have broken an extractor on my Large Frame 6.5 Creedmore

I have broken 3 extractors and a bolt on my Grendel

My first Grendel extractor made it to around 1200 rounds then it gave up the ghost.  Second one lasted a few hundred and third let go with the bolt lugs. I think my root cause was an improperly tuned gas system while running suppressed.

However, when I researched the issue with my first failure I did seem to find more evidence of broken 6.5 Grendel extractors, in fact it seemed like a common problem especially with the .125 bolts. Based on my experiences and my awesome skills of internet sleuthing, the Grendel extractors seem to have a shorter life span than 5.56 extractors.

I still love the cartridge, shot it today and will be hunting with it this weekend but i will have my spare extractor in my bag. After having one let go in a PRS match at the start of day 2, I lost confidence in the reliability of my gun so it will not see anymore competitions.  After the rifle went down, I was able to borrow another gas gun and finished 10th.

*I have no knowledge of 6.8 nor have I used one.

ETA: Hornady Amax ammo and JP Bolt

Several companies offer online or downloadable pdf reloading data/handooks. That is not for profit.

< CoC #6 Violation - F >

Not only did he cry OPSEC, but he didn't just comment on it, he reposted the same info...so, if he is right and knows it isn't supposed to be shared, by reposting the quote itself, wouldn't he be guilty of OPSEC as well?

Unlikely.  He is under no contractual obligation to maintain any secrecy of the goings on mentioned.  If anything, by quoting, his action merely preserved evidence of a potential breach. It wouldn't have been there to quote, if the responsible individual hadn't disclosed it.

@AmericanSentinelK9

How does this post in anyway contribute to the OP's thread?

Start a Pit thread and take your drama with LRRP52 there.

None of this drivel is true. I pop in a year or more later and see your up to your same old tricks and deceptions.
Amazing that you don't know how many people see through your BS.

The incident where the sociopathic reject asked 6.8f___m members to come to AR15.com to promote his products (after one of his many retreads was banned again) happened at least a year ago.

How you're making the connection that you're promoting his products doesn't add up, because I certainly never saw you promoting his products.

You don't get to constantly violate the CoC on the forum and behave like a child though.

Your listing of hot hand loads is not proof of typical 12" muzzle velocity, so using that as a baseline to accuse another person of lying is one of the weakest arguments I've seen on this forum.

You say you're a science teacher?  I would strongly recommend taking a critical thinking course where you learn about logical fallacies before engaging in them left and right.

I would also recommend following a personal code of conduct where you don't just lash out at other people's character and accuse them of lying when you don't even know the basics of the technical discussion you're in.  It's extremely rude, dismissive, and unacceptable behavior.

More BS comments, it was all done in a public place. Which was not disclosed. Nor names. More LR crap....

More BS comments, it was all done in a public place. Which was not disclosed. Nor names. More LR crap....

A Grendel bolt has the stronger extractor for that reason, which is why the bolt face depth is recessed.

It was Model 1 Sales who first introduced a really crappy cheap bolt with their "6.5 Sporter" to try and ride the coat tails of the cartridge.

If you look at 5.56 carbines with CLGS, 10.3" barrels, they experience early extractor failures as well, because the back pressure of the can is exacerbating the excessive timing of the cyclic rate, so cases are obturated against the chamber wall while the bolt is violently unlocking.

The shear forces and strain on the extractor lip in that set-up cause early fatigue.  This is a known problem in the units that use that set-up, and the reason why LMT developed the enhanced BCG with AerMet bolt, stronger extractor, elongated cam pin path, and additional venting for the gas from the carrier.

SOCOM wanted that solution, but big Army rejected it because they didn't want to risk the possibility of those BCGs being inserted into M16s with RLGS, resulting in short-stroking of the guns and resulting malfs.

Same thing with M110 7.62 NATO systems.  A buddy of mine who was a Sniper Platoon Section Leader and PSG in Ranger Regiment said they would see M110 bolts break all the time suppressed, whereas SR25s bolts would not.  The difference is that big Army demanded that M110 bolts be subjected to High Pressure Testing proof loads like 5.56 bolts (a bad process that should be eliminated), so certain units chose to purchase SR25s outside of the normal requisition paths if they had that ability to do so.

If you want to shoot suppressed with cans that generate a lot of back-pressure, the entire system needs to be engineered around that performance requirement.

Hot loads? You mean the ones proofed and verified? The loads under Western 58.5K psi?

You have been so subjective it radiates from you posts...everywhere you post false statements about the 6.8 in comparison to the 6.5...and you are an embarrassment to data research as a result. Research begins with objectivity, and objectivity begins with honesty. It isn't a violation of the code of contact when I provided links to your false data...when you know the truth...and then contradict yourself...as you have done...and I referenced.

Ask LRR.

My first three posts were about the OP's comments...and I gave LRR no comment until he quoted me and posted false data. See here...

And LRR followed it up by posting a deception...

It is a deception because a chain is only as strong as its weakest link. He refers to the thickness of the case head, when that has nothing to do with the tension on a more parallel case or the broken extractor...case head thickness may be strong, but is a red herring, because we are discussing weak links, not the strong areas.

He then tries to deny the reduced taper on the 6.5 Grendel, but go look it up.

5.56 has 3 times more taper as the Grendel, and the 6.8 has twice as much...but he wants to talk about magazines? Why not just look at the case dimensions instead? Do that, and he would be exposed for his deception.

lol. Really. Logical fallacies, such as your "Reductio ad Absurdum" fallacy here?

Or perhaps your "Conflicting Conditions" fallacy where you said they were within 50 fps even though you later reported over 110 fps?

Or perhaps your "Appeal to Authority" fallacy where you present yourself as knowing so much you could write a manual on loading the 6.8 and have been asked to so...or as you did with the 6.5.

Or your "Straw Man" fallacy (using SAAMI loads) and "Red Herring" fallacies (such as case head thickness) that you have been guilty of to redirect the topic?

Or your "Tu quoque" fallacy where you insult and attack the character of others, but then try to present yourself as if you don't do such, and are only a victim of character assassinations.

Oh son, you have violated many debate fallacies, and apparently don't even know it.

Don't get your dander up, Yama.  I was responding directly to a hypothetical question posed by ask9. I assigned no guilt or leveled any accusation.  



...We now return you to your regularly scheduled purse fight...

Please rotate the gas rings so they are not all aligned.

I have a LaRue 6.5 Grendel with about 300rds of Hornady Black & SST through it.  No FTF or hang ups with it.  I don't baby it but I don't rag on it either.  Should I buy a spare bolt/extractor for when it breaks?  

I also have a no-name upper that came with a 6.5G type II bcg that I use to fire steel Wolf ammo.  All rapid fire with a bumpfire stock...  Over 500rds, all steel.  A few FTF's but no extraction issues. Zero.  Surely I should I buy a spare bolt/extractor for that one, right?  It's going to break soon, right?  

Drama follows those who spread doubt and misinformation. Buy a 6.8 and run it at 58K. When you don't have a broken bolt, blown barrel or broken extractor then maybe maybe you'll understand why drama follows him around.

To label solely one party as the source of the drama is hypocritical.

Its also pretty transparently biased when others return to the forum after an absence to hijack a discussion about bolt failure into a propaganda treatise on the shortcomings of the 6.5 Grendel cartridge.
But by all means, don't bother to mention that.

To the OP, you can also do some searches over at 65grendel.com on the subject.  There is much more data there, and a reduced presence of insecure 6.8 fanboys.

Any bolt with a larger face, 6.8, 6.5G 7.62x39 has a bit more tendency to break an extractor. For normal range shooting, I would worry about it. Going on an expensive hunt that you spend $2,000-3,000 on and 2 weeks vacation, then I would bring a few spare parts with. Why ruin a good trip over a small failure.

I keep an extra bolt for my 3 Gun rifle in my bag, just in case.  It is one thing for it to fail at a local match, but go to a major match and you don't want to not finish over a failed part.

This is what I’m seeing in this thread.

I have seen one 6.8 bolt break in front of the cam pin. But I don't recall a thread where 6.8 bolts have broken. That's always made me a bit leery of the 6.8 crowd. Common sense tells you when a 5.56 can fail any other bolt can fail to. One thing about the Grendel crowd if some bolts fail they start researching where the bolts come from and ferret out the possibility of what went wrong. That's a plus for other people who use the grendel platform. Someone asked should they have an extra bolt and extractor the answer is yes!  I even have an extra for my daughter's 6.8.

Okay Carry on with the soap opera.

You cannot make false statements on a public forum for years and years, and then not expect to be called on it.

This is good advice for any trip that one appreciates. I wouldn't want to replace bolt parts in the woods. A spare bolt is very small and light weight...and an easy drop in fix.

Agreed.    Spare parts is smart. To come on here and trash the OP's cartridge choice is not.  

You've been a member here since Dec 2015. Not even two years yet?

You're either exaggerating or a retread, which is it?

Are you trying to suggest I cannot review topics that predate my membership? I can see what has been going on. Go to google and type in 6.8 SPC-II or 6.8 SPC, and you will see LRR's comments here and on youtube videos...that have been going on for years.

You do know how to use google right?

The Grendel was originally a 6mm PPC long range competition cartridge which Alexander cleaned up and which later won trophies as a long range competition round. It does well for that. How good did it sell for a Police/Military cartridge? Not really any better than 6.8, which is used overseas as a PDW round.

They were never intended from their origins to compete in the same ballistic task. Not. Yet the internet likes to pit them head to head.

As for breaking an extractor you have a few issues, one, it's weak. Two, the casing is too soft and hanging up on the chamber walls. Three, the bolt is being unlocked too early. I'm going with early timing as the cause. What gas port location, what size, and what buffer were used?

Yeah like join date and post count measure firearms knowledge, please. I've been shooting AR's and other military type semi-auto rifles for 35 years. I've owned a gun shop and machine guns before this forum was thought of so I'd say that trumps any post count on a forum.

Honestly both sides tend to use the numbers they want to make their pet cartridge appear better or worse.  Never understood how a person can be so passionate about a cartridge.  Truth be told they are close enough from 0 to 300 yards that there is no difference in the field.  I have a 6.5 and have noticed bias on both sides, its stupid as neither side arguing on this forum is going to change anyone's opinion

I carry a extra bolt for my 223 and 6.5.  They aren't that expensive and its essentially a wear item!

Agreed, but if he looks at my "joined date," it was at the end of 2015...although I don't comment much. My children and I have been hunting with ARs for years though...long before my joined date. I started them with the AR because of its light recoil. Never-the-less, search engines show LRR has been spamming the 6.8 topics here and elsewhere for a long time, and his posts that pre-date my joining here have not disappeared. We can still see his clearly biased history on the matter.

If you look at my posts that contain numbers, I have never promoted loads over the 58.5-60K psi range to support the SPC-II.  58.5K is accepted at max load by many, and most of my posts don't even go over the 58K reports...certainly not over the 58.5 or 60K. I have also give the Grendel credit it deserves from 20-24" barrels AND/OR as a long range cartridge. It is an excellent round. Finding the truth on the subject becomes difficult though when someone continually posts false information...and then claims justification due to being an "expert."

That is an "Appeal to Authority" debate fallacy. Truth doesn't need prop up self-stated credentials...truth relies on data...and when we assess data we need to look at it without bias. You cannot use modern data for the 6.5 Grendel and outdated data for the 6.8 SPC to represent the SPC-II. It just isn't proper data. If one wants to refer to factory loads, fine, but then specify if that is modern SPC-II data or old SAAMI data...for if you are objective and have awareness of the market, you would know SPC-II factory loads have been around before, and are coming back again soon by some manufacturers of ammo. And "cost" of ammo isn't a performance criteria. It is a user benefit, but it is not a performance data. And you cannot refer to things like "why is the magazine curved like a 5.56 or 6.8 mag if the case of the 6.5 Grendel doesn't have the same taper as the 5.56 or 6.8 case," when all you have to do to KNOW the truth is simply google the case dimensions. And then there are psi ratings for both bolt designs that anyone can look up, and there are reason for such limitations based on bolt strength. No need to misrepresent that either. Telling the truth is the best solution.

This dust up started when one person gave an opinion about the case taper on the 6.5 Grendel. LRRPF52 responded and stated that was false. Fine, he stated his opinion. It becomes controversial when he tries to convince everyone reading the thread that he's more knowledgable than the person he's having a dispute with and then attacks the other person's character, credibility and limit or lack of knowledge.  I'm sure he's not even aware he's doing it. Most people don't. That's just how they've learned to handle disputes in life.  Right or wrong?  Others can draw their own conclusions. There's many ways to win a disagreement. Attacking one's character and credibility is usually not one of them and usually only works with someone willing and/or uninformed about the facts. It also pisses people off, especially those on the other end of the attack. That's why we have these flame wars.

I've sat on the sidelines and watched this drama follow him around on this and many other forums for years.  Many times it starts in thread unrelated to the Grendel or the 6.8. But it usually ends up the same no matter how it starts. I question his motives. Maybe it's for financial gain. I really don't know nor care for that matter. I will say, whatever the reason it's very important and it quickly becomes personal.  I'm unable to determine if what he brags about is true since I've never taken the time to verify that information. I filter that information with a healthy bit of skepticism for the obvious reasons. What I know for fact based on my personal experience with the 6.8, much of what comes out of his mouth about the 6.8 is BS and spin.

In my real life, I get paid to sit across the table from someone in a legal setting and determine whether they're being honest.  I usually know when I'm being hustled. Because of my experience with the 6.8, this feels like one of those times when I'm being hustled.  Call me an insecure 6.8 fanboy and claim I'm hypocritical.  But understand that what I laid out above is why I say drama follows him around. Buy or build a 6.8 and run it at 58K. If you do, maybe you'll come to the same conclusion as I have, that he's attempting to sow doubt and misinformation about the 6.8.

Yup...and then he uses all types of debate fallacies like red herrings, appeal to authority, straw man arguments, and others...

AND he also uses incorrect data. There is no need to debate that the 6.5 Grendel has less case taper. It is a fact. Look at the case dimensions.

The 5.56 and 6.8 have about twice as much taper as does the Grendel. Don't take my word for it or his...just look it up.

5.56


6.8


6.5 Grendel