But you dont appear to apply it evenly.

Because you take a side in a pointless philosophical cartridge war.
All you did was take yourself down to the lowest common denominator by staking a claim in a battle of irrelevance.

You can say whatever you want, but given the fact that a known issue with bad extractors occurred in a wildcat cartridge, you can't apply that same "critical" logic to the side that jumps in when the opportunity presented itself to renew the taper/pressure/anal wart/irregular testicle cartridge war.

After 52 years on this Earth I can recognize my own silliness in engaging in similar forum/internet wars.  Be it about a programming language, an editor, sports cars, type of beer or what not.

You have no high ground in this, despite an infinite number of eons professionally evaluating BS, CS, PS or any other consonant followed by an S.

Don't forget the full retard "Security Clearance Violation" accusations tossed about.  That just raises this to higher levels of inanity.

Pot meet kettle

All the average shooter cares about is will it kill, is it reliable, is it available, is it cost effective, and can it be shot to a decent distance with accuracy.

So those with 10.5" barreled Grendels should make sure they shoot beyond 300yds because that from what I have seen is not a problem?

The reinforcements have arrived!

Time to make some more popcorn...

dump?  I don't know if I would use the term dump.

Its more like a rogue planet of poop has suddenly de-orbited on this thread..

And they aren't done yet.  They have only started to break out the case diagrams.

The spreadsheets are next!!!

I assure you that the spreadsheets are here, but in 6.8 threads...where LR has proven that statistics don't lie, but you can lie with statistics.  Again, you 6.5 guys are missing the rest of the story.  Be glad and do your own research.

Nah, Still looking for the 5.56 "SAMMI" specs........

It isn't a cartridge war for me. It is about putting round pegs in round holes and square ones in square holes.

Both rounds are great rounds, but if you want peak performance for YOUR application, you need to be able to obtain accurate information.

There is a high ground...and that is promoting truths...so those interested in real data can get unbiased data.

Some people don't like truths though, and that is sad. They have an agenda. Notice, he still hasn't answered my 10 simple YES or NO questions, and I suspect he won't...because anyone that is honest knows the answer to all 10 of these questions...and the answers do not go in his favor. However, we could easily list some questions that would favor the 6.5 as the market stands right now in factory production ammo...however, if anyone actually reviews my comments objectively, they will I never took shots at the 6.5's success at long range...although there are some here with more knowledge and experience than I have that have worked up 6.8 SPC-II loads that apparently can out perform the 6.5 even out long range. That however is beyond my knowledge, so I never spoke on such matters...although LRR would have you believe I quote anyone, I don't. I only report data as I understand it. Notice...I referred to John Linebaugh earlier in another topic, as I shot large bore handguns for a while...and made a comparison there about bullet diameter as it relates to bullet acceleration...although LRR would want people to believe my comments are because of some "certain banned vendor."

The fact is, my comments are because LRR posts a lot of false information. He redirects as much as possible...and avoids simple straight forward YES/NO questions. LOL.

This thread, while entertaining.... Is dildos. I would say it's pretty close to 'when assholes collide'

But you do realize what a joke that is, right? You're a walking contradiction, and that ridiculous list you posted seals your fate as a troll.

Jesus. Are all the mods asleep?!?

[color=#ff0000]< Or working or looking at other parts of the site.  We're not God - that's why Goatboy put the [Report] button there for y'all to use -  when someone violates the CoC. - F >[/color]

Jk... I know what's going on....

Those 10 simple questions apparently made a liar disappear?

Are you paid to monitor this thread 24/7?

let him be proud of "his" list, Its almost as telling as posting pics of an AR on PB with the rear sight mounted backwards...........

Don't forget the full retard "Security Clearance Violation" accusations tossed about. That just raises this to higher levels of inanity.



This thread, while entertaining.... Is dildos. I would say it's pretty close to 'when assholes collide' 

Jesus. Are all the mods asleep?!?  

Jk... I know what's going on.... 



You guys are killing me!

Read this out loud and even my wife is laughing... Rebar and joncarter17 you guys could be my favorite humam beings tonight.

Hmm...  All that confidence in the 6.8 round yet the fan bois feel the need to come in and trash a 6.5G extractor thread.    A hollow drum makes the loudest noise.

I can not comment on that.  I know they have made a troll disappear from his usual haunts.

That is the most shocking development to date.

How can you withstand the loss in income?  Not to mention the carnal delight in terrorizing random travelers?

I can understand how heartbroken you were in 2001 when Dreamworks chose to bring a CGI troll to the screen in Shrek after you had attended 326 rehearsals.
But I can't understand why you twisted your failure to land the role into a crusade against an (unrelated) rifle cartridge???

LOL. Just save the 10 questions and ask him next time he shows up.

Trolls and stalkers dont do it for money, they do it out of a sense of NEED.

Remember, this is personal for him. ASK9's responses are cued into LRRP52 and he cannot let this go. He targeted LRRP52 and used Google to search out his posts on other forums.

This isnt just happenstance, this is personal.

Incorrect. I don't even know LRRp52. I only am only aware of the nonsense he spews on 6.8 topics.

Review this discussion, or any discussion that LRR and I go back and forth and you will see I don't even respond to his comments UNLESS he responds to me with false information OR he posts on a 6.8 topic with false information. In other words, if he didn't post false information or start fabricated communication on the basis of false claims, he wouldn't even know of my existence. Meanwhile, it seems one of you is mounting sights backwards and working for him.

But let's not bury the 10 questions...

There are only two areas of the 6.5 Grendel that outperform the 6.8...which are BC and sectional density. It takes distance for that strength to show up. How many deer and hogs have you shot over 300 yards? Over 400 yards?

Are you sad b/c maybe you just care about him a lot more than he cares about you? It'll be ok....

And, lots.

I have seen a few people refer to this being a "tech forum discussion."

Just an FYI, I am seeing this thread in the AR-Variants forum.

3. Do bullets fired in hot guns have more case expansion and pressure than those shot in cold guns?

I'll take only if they are fired from Banana Clips for $500 Alex......

Sheesh.  H is not getting his money's worth here.....

The responses certainly don't come across as very technical. More like Jerry Springer. I posted some simple straight forward fundamentals...and no one provided technical data to discredit any of the points made in the 10 questions. Fundamentals guys...fundamentals. Post accurate data if you want to claim this as a technical conversation. The only strengths in performance the 6.5 has is BC and sectional density. Every other strength goes to the 6.8...be it PSI, bolt, light weight performance, reliability, durability, etc. Perhaps this is why some choose to avoid the technical aspects of this conversation. It is those two strengths that give the 6.5 Grendel not "excellent" performance at long range, but better maintenance of a lower initial yield. If you truly want good long range performance, you may need the Creedmoor or perhaps the new 224 Valkyrie...or something along those lines.

H?  That you??!?!

In bold appears to be correct.  It seems that even a simple 6.5G extractor problem thread is a proxy for attacking forum members.  Pretty low class.


That said, It actually makes me feel a lot better about my extractor problem knowing that it's not unique to me with these two guns.  This supports my theory of a bad batch of extractors.  And the damn things are like $20/each, that's what I'm most upset about.

For LRR, it seems he has a personal issue with anyone that likes the 6.8

For me, I ignore him and his posts until he addresses me or makes a false statement about the 6.8

If you find my response to him as personal, I find that conclusion strange.

it seems like the best fix is to satisfy everyone is to just neck the 6.8 spc case to 6.5mm and trim 2mm from the neck for the SIX5 round (6.5x41mm).

The best answer is just to have uppers in both 6.5 G and 6.8 spc

1. Does case taper influence reliability during extraction?   On over-gassed guns, it can help.  So can generous neck dimensions.  You still didn't consider surface area of case purchase to the chamber wall during obturation, or timing of the cyclic rate, or chamber dimensions for self-loaders, etc., etc.

2. Does this have anything to do with being considered for full auto use?  It can, but 7.62 NATO has way more surface area, way more chamber pressure, much more working against it than 6.5 Grendel for full auto use.  When someone with only some of the facts tries to make an argument that is being fed to them by a retard, their lack of understanding of internal ballistics becomes evident very quickly.

3. Do bullets fired in hot guns have more case expansion and pressure than those shot in cold guns? Bullets don't have case expansion.  I think the word you were looking for was "cartridges".  Very common with amateurs, but it's ok.  Cartridges fired in hot chambers will expand and rebound more.  Like I said before, timing of the system is more important.  This is self-loading and automatic firearms 101.  You're getting lost in the weeds on things without having an understanding of the system, metallurgy, or effects of ambient temperatures on firearms performance.

4. Are dirty guns more likely to have stuck cases than clean guns?  Yes.  Dirty guns with non chrome-lined chambers especially being run out of optimum timing.

5. Is the PSI rating for the 6.8 at least 10% higher than the 6.5 Grendel?  (be honest, 50K vs 55K for SAAMI, and 50K vs 58.5K for SPC-II...or even if you go hot with 52K for grendel and 58.5-60K for SPC-II)       SAAMI MAP, is 55,000psi for 6.8 SPC.  It is higher than 6.5 Grendel.  You're in the stage right now of thinking that higher working pressures are a good thing after cutting away more material from the bolt and chamber.  I've seen it many times before.  You should be seeking lower pressure.
   

I pointed these major differences in listed working pressures for 6.8 earlier in the thread.  It doesn't help your argument to inject them as if you are trying to hold me to "being honest" when I made the point.  I have been honest throughout this thread.  Doesn't make sense to ask someone to "be honest" when they educated you about the differences between SAAMI, Hodgdon's, and Western Powders maximum working pressures differences.

6. Is the 5.56 bolt stronger than the 6.8 bolt?  When made from the same alloy and same processes, the bolt with more material on it is stronger when they are both run at the same levels of thrust.  A larger case head within the same overall bolt OD limitations needs to be reduced in working pressure to reduce bolt thrust.

7. Is the 6.8 bolt stronger than the 6.5 Grendel bolt?  If you run a 6.8 at Grendel working pressure or less, it is stronger.  When you run a 6.8 higher than 53,600psi, you are creating the same or more bolt thrust, especially at 58ksi.  Also, more case taper causes more bolt thrust.  When you run 7.62x39 at the same pressure as 6.5 Grendel, even though they have the same case head dimensions, the 7.62x39 has more thrust because of the shape of chamber, acting like a shape charge facing back on the bolt.

8. Are broken extractors and bolts reported more often in the 6.5 Grendel?  I don't have statistical samples to evaluate.  I do know there are reports of broken extractors with both cartridges in the AR15.  One thing to consider is that there are a lot of imitation Grendel components in the wild that totally ignored the design constraints of the cartridge for chambering in the AR15.  So rifles chambered in something that gets labeled as "6.5 Grendel" that have .125" bolt face depths will shear off extractor lips more easily.  This also applies to the 7.62x39.  It's basic mechanical engineering when you look at the requirements the thicker rims of these cases have.

9. What range is the shot for most hunters of whitetail deer or hogs? Usually within 200yds, where 16" 6.5 Grendel exceeds 6.8 SPC II performance already by 25yds on out with the same bullets made by the same manufacturers exiting the muzzles within 50fps of each other.

10. Do you condone hunting deer or hog with either gun over 400 yards? Depends on the skill of the shooter.  For most hunters, I recommend keeping within the Point Blank Zero range of the firearm/cartridge system, so in this case, a 16" 6.5 Grendel will have 25yds or more PBZ than 6.8 SPC II, usually turns out to be 200yds (6.8) vs 225yds (6.5) with the SSTs.  For me and people with the training I provide, we can extend their effective range measurably.  400yds shots within 1.5 MOA are pretty boring for me and people with some quality formal training.  Mule deer up here have a pretty large vital zone, even on doe.  We're looking at 11-12" most of the time.  10" is a pretty common vital zone for Whitetail, very easy to hit when broadside standing out to 300yds if you know your holds in lower wind conditions, and well within the terminal performance capabilities of both 16" 6.8 and 16" 6.5 Grendel.

If the hunter uses projectile expansion threshold as part of their ethical hunting formula, as long as you have the required terminal performance from the projectile and can make the shot, 400yds is not really difficult, and has been done many times on deer, mule deer, and even elk.  Even your banned vendor shot a spike elk at well over 300yds with a 20" 6.8 SPC II hand load with a 110gr Accubond.

Mark LaRue made a very quick kill on a large bull elk at 406yds with a 20" 6.5 Grendel using a Barnes 120gr TSX AA factory load back in 2008.  That was at very high elevation, which is where we only see elk anyway.  Very rare to see them below 7,000 ft here, normally at 8-9k in season.

Hogs are more skittish, always moving, with a much smaller vital zone than deer, so you need to take into consideration ToF when hunting them beyond .5 seconds.  With Grendel at sea level and a 123gr Hornady, you're looking at .5 seconds to 360yds from a 16"/2450fps mv using doppler data.  With a 120gr SST from a 6.8 SPC II going 2460fps mv, you're looking at .5 sec at 340yds, but you have more wind drift, and have passed your expansion potential at 310yds (1800fps for SST).  6.5 Grendel is still over 1800fps at 360yds, so within expansion threshold with the 123gr SST.  If you hand-load them both to 2500-2550fps from 16" barrels, you can extend the expansion range, but Grendel will still have more expansion range because of BC.

The main thing I recommend for hunters is to get a rifle or carbine that they are comfortable with, that fires a cartridge that is legal within their State to hunt medium game with, to do a thorough rifle/optic/ammo checklist on, and get as much trigger time with the system before they go hunting.  Obtaining and gaining a solid zero is part of the rifle/optic/ammo checklist.  You will be far more effective with your rifle/optic/ammo system even with a smaller, lighter recoiling cartridge with training, than a heavy-recoiling magnum or even short action cartridge that is difficult to hold sight picture with through the shot.

With the availability of steel case ammo for the 6.5 Grendel, it makes practice that much easier and economical.

To wit, a technical sub-forum within the AR-15 forums, with additional constraints on what is supposed to be acceptable conduct within it.  Please read the sticky at the top of this forum.

Just an FYI, for whatever its worth.

They don't even allow you to call people liars in General Discussion.

Any personal attacks are expressly forbidden in the tech forums.

I don't know what site AmericanSentinelK9 thought he was on, but it shouldn't matter.

As an adult gentleman, you should be able to conduct your communication in a civilized manner.

You don't just keep labeling someone a liar over and over because you don't like what it is they are saying, and can't refute with any facts.

We still don't have an acceptable explanation for why K9 is here defecating all over the thread, other than knee-jerking on an opportunity to lash out against 6.5 Grendel-a cartridge he has nothing to do with, other than an what appears to be an emotionally-charged motive to attack it, when the OP simply came in and reported he had an extractor failure.

You then see that I mentioned several posts down on page 1 that there is a known lot of extractors that were made that have defects in them.

Others said to contact the vendor that sold him the upper and let them take care of it.

AmericanSentinelK9, a very passionate fan of the 6.8, decided that this was his opportunity to sling feces in an otherwise drama-free discussion.

This led him to attack my character, which makes zero sense, yet he doubles down on it when called out for violating the CoC.

For you guys that have been accepting the BS that H puts out, it must really feel miserable to slowly learn that you've been lied to for at least a decade now.  I would recommend leaving your personal emotions and propensity to personal attacks off of this forum.  You've been misled by a very toxic personality who openly admitted to posting his customer's personal info here as a form of punishment (was banned at least 3 times), openly volunteered that he was forced out of the construction industry for booting another employee in the head, and then decided to get into firearms manufacturing.  What could go wrong?

I wish I would have know about that information before, but they scrubbed the posts where he listed customer info, and understandably so, because the site probably didn't want a lawsuit for hosting that kind of behavior, even the residue of it.  Whenever we've seen similar things on the site, they will nuke the threads.

LOL.

I knew you couldn't answer yes/no.

He answered you line by line?

You really are here only to troll.

I come to these threads for LRRPF52's technical expertise and experience, primarily from the fields he worked in, firearms work, and experience with them.  If some of you don't like what he says or disagree, fine, post your technical facts and technical thoughts and then stop.

Off the rails and into space