AR Sponsor
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - My AR15 KaBoomed - from Maine Cartridge Co. SS109 (Updated Page 14 More Lying/More Stupidity) (Page 7 of 7)
I had the same thing, but it was back in the mid 80's... being young and stupid I fired them off (at least the ones that didn't have their bullets fall out completely due to the case neck cracks). I mentioned this to a Black Hills rep about 2 years ago and they made good on the bad ammo even without any definitive proof from me! He was aware of the distributor I bought the ammo from and the specific problems with the case necks during that period of time and that was good enough for him! |
J Smith I just called MCC for ya and told him that we dont like how he handled your situation and he was pretty much a dick about it.  Everyone here should give him a call and tell him about it. Maybe just maybe he might pay to have your gun fixed if he gets enough calls about it. 
|
| I'm concerned about the dangers of reloading as I'm beginning to reload myself. I also had my rifle Kaboom and destroy the reciever after shooting my own reloads. I had forgot to put in the ear plugs after twice stripping the action for failure to chamber the next round completely, so I lost part of my right ear's hearing ability, also. I continue to shoot my reloads (stubborn bugger that I am) because I think the cause of my kaboom was a squib wherein the previous round's bullet was preventing the action to close completely but after repeated bolt closures the next round in ended up haveing the bullet pushed back into the case. The case fractured at the base during kaboom. Most powders can't be double charged without overflowing the case. Have one pulled apart to see (measured charge). And other than overcharging, damaged brass, or bullets set back too far, I'm not sure the round could cause a kaboom. Might ask in general section under "reloading". I didn't hear a squib but didnt see the shot place on the target and being it's my first gun didn't think to clear the barrel until after the damage. Now I look to see if the action is completely closed quite a bit more often. Here's a page that shows the signs of overpressure http://www.tisbjerg.dk/ammo/diagnosing%20problems.htm . I'm sure the manufacturer is not going to say it's their weapon's fault but are they telling you what went wrong? If there isn't an obstruction in the barrel, the bullet is sized to go out the barrel and the bolt closes locking the round in the chamber, the explosion should push the bullet out the barrel instead of having the pressue go out the back through the reciever. Good to hear you didn't get hurt. Someone's looking out for ya. |
That's exactly the point about using anyone's reloads / re manufactured ammunition. You're standing there holding the remains of your AR, looking at a "WCC" head-stamped round that is jammed into your barrel extension, with the remains of a non-factory primer in it. Obviously its a reload. The reloader / re-manufacturer says "prove its my reload / re-manufacture". So, you pull out the box, which has 49 rounds left in it, all with different head-stamps... and the reloader / re-manufacturer says "so? what proves that's my reloaded / remanufactured round in your AR?". Even if St. Peter and the rest of the Apostles swear they saw you open that box and put the offending round in your AR, the reloader / re-manufacturer can simply shrug his shoulders and claim you put someone else's reloads in his box. Unless the reloader / re-manufacturer has integrity - but six years later, unless both parties have records of the sale, its impossible to prove whose ammo it was. And MCC knows this. They figure there are new customers eager for "cheap ammo" every day that don't realize the dangers of shooting someone else's reloads - and "remanufactured" is reloaded too. At least with your own relaods you know who the dumbass reloading the ammunition is. And if you've ever had to go back and fix a mistake in your own reloads on a single stage or progressive press, think about the ramifications in a large scale set-up. |
actually, the point I wanted to make is that through any number of factors - accidental, negligent, or EVEN intentional - the actual cartridge that KB'd the gun may not have been MCC, and until he has a way to prove that, he's really got nowhere else to go... ...except for the goodwill of the maufacturer. now, MCC stands to lose some business because of their actions (or lack of) in this regard. but can you tell me how taking responsibility for manufacturing defects of 6 year old ammunition that was claimed, but never documented to be his, can be a bigger liability nightmare in the long run? I can. and as much as I wouldn't want to say it, I would probably respond the same way as MCC in the same circumstances. I've seen too many shitheads do too many stupid things and then swear on their mother's grave that they didn't, to have any faith in the word of someone I don't personally know. |
I agree with you for the most part. If MCC had said, "We'd like to help, but without some proof it's ours, we can't help...sorry." But instead, they come out with some half baked story about their gunsmith inspecting the rifle and saying it fired out of battery. That's the credibility killer on their side. WTF were they thinking, making stuff up like that? |
As stated in my original post, I bought the ammunition in 1999 so I do not have the original packaging or receipts. I still have around 100 rnds of their ammo though. Looking at the bad round today and the brass used by Maine Cartridge Company was Lake City 85 brass. I've filed a complaint with the NH Attorney General and Better Business Bureau. Not sure what, if anything, will happen. Considering Small Claims but not sure if its worth all the hassle plus extra fees. I was looking at the barrel and barrel extension. While the barrel extension is toast - there isn't visible damage to the barrel itself (Bushmaster removed the stuck round). I may ship the barrel to White Oak Armament at some point to have them inspect it - if its fine I'm sure they could install a new barrel extension. |
Thanks for the advice - I'ma total newb with things like this as you can tell lol. I really didn't know either way. While it LOOKS like it may be serviceable its hard to tell - and probably not even worth it. With that said, I'm hoping and praying there is some resolution to this. For now, all the parts are just sitting in a box in the event I ever rebuild someday. |
|
|
My complaint with the Better Business Bureau was filed and responded to. Mr Orr, owner and operator of MCC, left this response. Not that in Bushmaster's findings that the weapon fired in battery. He continues to deny the case head failure which is evident by the ballistic evidence. We received the following response from the business to your complaint. Problem adjusted: No Type of adjustment: No Adjustment "This is not the fault of MCCI and we will not pay any damage not caused by us period. After being contacted, I told Mr Smith to ship the firearm to me for inspection along with ammunition and if it was our fault, we would take care of it. The firearm had a bullet still in the barrel. If the bolt closed completely at a minimum, the bullet would leave the barrel. I talked with Mr Smith several times. I also called Jim Eden as his thoughts were the powder burned slow then fast. We purchase some powder lots in 2000 to 5000 lb lots so this would not be at all possible without this thing going on shooting round after round on the same lot. On another note, MCCI did this in good faith as Mr Smith did not have any proof of purchase." |
|
Remind me to ask for a bench trial before I chance any of you being in the jury pool. It amazes me how many of you are ready to hang MCC with no proof what so ever, other than one persons version of the events, as to what really happened. Now MCC may indeed be the worst ammo manufacturer ever but there is no proof here that their ammo was at fault. The ammo was purchased years ago, not stored in the original container, and we have only the owners memory to go on that it was even MCC's ammo he was using. I noted that he originally said he wasn't even sure what brand of bolt and carrier were in his rifle that he built, so his memory can certainly be called into suspect right there. It is certainly big of you all to expect MCC to step up to the plate and replace the rifle when no proof has been offer at all that they are at fault. I believe that the owner of the gun is 100% certain of the ammo he used. I also believe that he could be wrong after 6-8 years and not know it. It reminds me of a situation that happened in our shop. A customer called to find out if his gun that had been dropped off some time earlier for gunsmithing was done. He read us the claim ticket number over the phone and I checked the log book and could find no listing of his gun, although the claim check number was certainly in the right range of numbers for our shop. I checked the back and could not locate his gun in the gunsmiths shop. When I told him this he became very angry, threatened us with a law suit for loosing his gun and in general loudly proclaimed how incopetent we were. I suggested he call back and speak to the gunsmith directly as I was sure he could reemedy the problem. He would hear none of it and said he was on his way to our shop and we had better find his gun. Anyway, he shows up about a half hour later, pissed off and yelling/demaning his gun. I asked him for his claim check which he then almost threw at me. I then, very politely, pointed out to him that the name on the top of the claim check was for another shop in town, not ours, and that he might want to check there for his gun. He picked up the claim check, looked at it, said "oh", and walked out without offering so much as an I'm sorry. My point is, had he not had the claim check and relied on only his memory, I'm sure the same bunch of you here would be backing him up and claiming that as a gesture of good service we should buy him a new rifle, to replace the one we lost, that he couldn't even prove we ever had, because we hadn't. |
|
I'm 27 - I do not have Alzheimers and my memory is VERY clear as too what ammunition is which that I purchased. I mark all ammunition and separate accordingly if I own more then one type of ammunition per caliber. I'm an Army trained armorer, licensed civilian gunsmith, and military Gunner's Mate - not some inbred idiot who doesn't know what they are doing. Yes, I assembled the rifle - I have assembled and worked on many AR15's and M16's (gov't). I have never had any problems and I understand the function of the AR15/M16 series of rifles. When MCC "examined" my rifle it was returned in the same condition I sent it to them. It was never disassembled, nor was the bolt carrier taken out. He claims he knew it wasnt HIS ammunition - but he never removed the cartridge casing, the bullet, or the case head. How can he be a gunsmith if he can't disassemble the rifle? Do tell. Bushmaster Firearms disassembled the rifle just fine. MCC *might* have given it a once over look - but nothing was taken apart. I HAVE the fired casing. The ONLY Lake City 85 brass I have EVER owned was from Maine Cartridge Company. The fired round is CLEARLY a steel core SS109 round from the bullet which I still have in my possession. The separated brass head clearly shows that pressure blew out the back of the casing. Daniel Orr lied to me. He claimed the AR15 fired out of battery. His only possible saving grace is that I have no receipt. But I still have in my possession other rounds of his SS109 remanufactured ammunition. Does that make Mr Orr any more genuine or credible? Absolutely not. Look at how many people he's screwed already. I know of at least a dozen cases of MCC railroading its customers when their product catastrophically fails. I don't even care about the money or broken parts. I HATE LIARS. s |
|
If MCC had said that we will not honor the repair without a proof of purchase, thats one thing. To try and song and dance their way out of this by using some shady gunsmith to piss down our backs and tell us its raining is an insult to everyone who has a minimal knowledge of how the rifle worked. This issue with me is not so much that they didn't honor the warranty, it is they way they chose to weasle out. If those ethics are in force after the fact, are those same ethics in effect when they do their initial QA/QC on their reloads? |
I believe you, at least I believe that you believe you are correct. But the fact still remains that by your own accounting it was a long time ago and you could be wrong.
Not wanting to seem mean but the above doesn't really count for much. The fact that you continue to be interested in firearms and work on them impresses me more than your military training. A long time ago I was in the Army at Aberdeen and half the students attending the 45B course were dropouts from the more technical fields taught there. The AR platform is very simple and takes no great effort to learn, heck I did it half a day.
If he believes that it fired out of battery then he's not lying, he could just be wrong. I can say that in all of the over pressure firearms failures I have seen over the years, and there have been a lot of them, I have NEVER seen one were the bullet remained in the barrel. For the amount of pressure needed to damage your rifle the way it was more than enough pressure was developed to cause the bullet to exit the gun. That said, I would never claim that it would be impossible for it to stick in the barrel, but it sure seems unlikely. This is what I'm having trouble getting my head around. Newton says that for every force there is an equal and opposite force. So, the massive amount of pressure that vented into you action and destroyed it was also exerted against the bullet but couldn't even get it past the gas port? Without examining the barrel my first thought is that there was a sqib in the bore. I would like to see a cross section of the barrel to see if there truly is only one bullet in it. It is possible for two bullets to compress and deform to the point that they could have the same length as one undeformed one.
But neither does it make you credible. As you have stated you have no proof it was his ammo, it's a bunch of unmarked reloads anyone could have made or sold. I have no dog in this fight. I don't know you, I don't know anyone at MCC. It just struck me as odd that so many people would so quickly, and so vehemently, blame a manufacturer when no proof at all was offered against him. |
|
The bottom line is MMC Sucks! I remember the fiasco of the group buy one of the members here tried to put together & MMC jerked him off with some bullshit on how his press for 5.56 was broken & it took months to get "fixed" then They had "Military" contracts to fill so they couldn't fill our orders they were already paid for. |
|
I do have a couple of questions regarding Bushmasters letter.
You said the rifle was all Bushmaster parts except for the barrel and railed forend, they say only the lower was. Are they lying or is it possible you incorrectly remembered what parts you used?
Massive pressure detroyed and altered the gun. It is not possible to say if the headspace was correct before the event, only if it was after.
You said the blockage was before the gas port. If this is true then the bolt could not have unlocked. You also stated you had to pound the bolt and bolt carrier out of lock up and the picture you posted of the gun after the blow-up shows it forward and in battery. The evidence presented seems to indicate that the gun did not unlock.
Exactly. If the bolt was closed and in battery AND the sqibed round was two inches behind the gas port Bushmaster cannot be correct about the gun unlocking.
Very true. My money is on a squibed round blocking the barrel and another round being fired behind it. The barrel needs to be sectioned to see the inside of the bore and the bullet or bullets. Of course if I'm right it's still the failt of the ammo maker for letting an underpowered round get out, not that this helps you since you can't prove who the ammo was made buy. I guess the best we can take from all this is the following lessons... 1. If you buy remanufactured ammo and have any problem at all stop using it. 2. Ammo is not wine, it doesn't improve with age. 3. Keep all your ammo in it's original factory containers. If it doesn't have a lot number don't buy it. No lot number is a sure sign of little or no quality controll. |
|
Bushmaster stated that the only Bushmaster component was the lower reciever because the lower reciever was sold by Bushmaster as stripped. Most of the components - including the V-Match Upper Reciever were from Bushmaster. The fact is that the serial # does not match that of a stock Bushmaster rifle. I've examined the round that was in the bore. Its only one SS109 round. Prior to Bushmaster removing the round, I measured the length of chamber to bullet and from the muzzle to bullet to determine whether there was more then one round in the bore. Also, I don't see how two steel tungsten core rounds could ever merge to be confused as one round. Maybe a lead bullet - not an SS109 round. Also, if it was a true squib round, I would have heard an audible difference while firing. You generally KNOW when a squib fires - less audible report and greatly reduced recoil. This was not the case. I still await a logical explanation from MCC on how the bullet was stuck in the bore but all the backpressure destroyed the rear of the gun - and its "not their fault". The bolt was locked up and after the mishap. Half of the carrier and internals were blown out the magazine. So while the carrier moved to the rear - the bolt and its locking lugs did not go back on their own accord. The extractor was blown out the mag well and the head of the cartridge casing remained stuck in the bolt until Bushmaster removed it. The ripped casing was stuck in the chamber. Maybe my credibility is on the line. But guess what? Two Arfcomers from New Hampshire were there that day in March - one shooting right beside me. One personally felt all the gas pressure hit his face when the upper blew up and saw all the metal shrapnel all the ground. I didn't sabotage my $1500 customized AR15 - a gun which ran FINE for the first 300 rounds. |
Ok, I had not read in previous posts that the bullet had been removed from the barrel and inspected. I thought the bullet was still in the bore. What I ment was that two bullets in the bore can compress enough that the overall length after the misshap could be similar to one unaltered bullet.
It just makes me wonder why, if the bolt was stuck in the closed position, as I would expect it to be from your description and the pictures you posted, Bushmaster stated that the gas entered the rifle after the bolt unlocked. I'm not saying they are being dishonest or covering anything up, it just seems like they are wrong.
I did not mean to imply that you had intentionally ruined your gun, only that you did, admitidly, ignore warning signs that your ammo was less than perfect. |
Been watching this thread. Bring their asses to court. You have Documentation from Bushmaster that it was the Ammo's Fault. I would trust their judgement over MCC. FUCK U MCC. I also remember them botching the hell out of a group buy a couple years ago. FUCKING LOSERS
|
|
Better Business Bureau case closed and this was Maine Cartridge Company's latest inhorent drivel. FollowUp Date: 06/12/2006 "Details: As I stated before, we will not pay for damages that we did not cause. I had the customer ship the fire arm to me for inspection and I determined that it appeared as if the round had been set off just before the bolt locked as the bullet entered and stuck in the barrel just a few inches. If the bolt was fully closed, the bullet would have exited the barell. In my opinion, this was caused by something on the bolt face that set the round off just before the bolt was closed and locked. My telephone call to Jim Eden Bushmasters Senior Gunsmith to get to the bottom of this. His response was that he thought the powder burned too slowly, causing this. I then asked him if he had ever seen this ammuninition in MCCI--and he had not seen the ammo or the box. Mr. Smith sent some re-manufactured 223 ammo from this same lot but no MCCI, so round box. I still went forward testing in two AR-15 rifles. If the ammo lot was loaded with a high pressure powder charge, you would at a minimum see inoication of this from from simply checking for flattening primers on the fired cases. No high pressure sign at all--this was not the cause of faulty ammunition." |
No "victory" at all. I have my State Attorney General looking into it as well. Risking my life and losing money doesn't matter to me as much as MCC's profound lack of integrity by lying to me. |
Well if you sent him the rifle and he inspected it... what was on the bolt face? What a vague answer he gives. |
Its interesting how he came to this conclusion when the case head from the ruptured round was never removed from the bolt by MCC. Jim Eden from Bushmaster was the only one to completely disassemble the rifle. MCC's purported gunsmithing inspection was some magic voodoo ritual apperently since they returned the rifle to me exactly the same way I sent it to them. There is no way that MCCI is in a position to evaluate the cause and effect of the rifle when they never so much as removed the the destroyed bolt carrier group and/or bolt. Mr. Orr s insisted that the AR15 fired out of battery. When I confronted him with this and Bushmaster's (Jim Eden's) findings, he claimed the ammunition was not his (MCC's) to begin with. If someone is going to lie directly to my face, at least be consistent in the debauchery of the truth. Again - the only thing "on" the bolt face was a ruptured LC 85 case heading which was probably reloaded or remanufactured one to many times. |
I have read all 14 pages of this, and I have to say that you will accomplish very little outside of this forum. Sure, the SAG may "look into it", but I doubt anything will come from it. MCC can deny the cartridge is their's, and you simply cannot prove the round was. Period. With this in mind, the SAG cannot really do much. I see that many have jumped on the bandwagon to indict MCC based on the words of J_Smith, but that is somewhat expected on this board. After all, its the pitchfork mentality shared by a good majority of posters here. I have to agree with EBert's assessment, as he seems to be one of the few who have actually examined the merits of this situation. Don't be fooled, though, there simply is no proof that this is MCC's responsibility, nor is their any indication that they should shoulder any liabilty. First, by your own admission, you stated that you noticed issues with the ammo even before you loaded it, yet you fired it anyway. Second, you have no proof that the ammo was in fact MCC's, as you have no receipts or original packaging to support the claim. Third, you assembled the gun yourself. Now, understand in no way am I calling you a liar or am I calling you incompetent. I am simply pointing out that your potential case and current claim could be dissected and completely rebutted by virtually anyone who's watched more than three episodes of Law & Order. Furthermore, the fact that MCC even offered to check your rifle shows a certain amount of good faith by them, as they were under no obligation to do so. They looked at your rifle, and gave you their assessment. Was the assessment accurate? Who knows. Were they blatantly lying to you to blow you off? Once again, who knows. But what I do know is that you cannot prove any of it in any court (other than the AR15.com court of opinion).
And they can defend themselves very easily on this matter. The evidence you have provided to us (at least to me) strongly suggests an OOB firing, especially considering that the bullet never made it to the gas port (and gas is required to unlock the bolt). Based on that, MMC can state that the problem was with the gun itself, not the ammo. Hence, they are no longer obligated to do anything with the rifle and can remand the issue to the manufacturer. Therefore, they have no need to take the gun apart, remove the bolt/carrier, or anything else.
Maybe he's lying, maybe he's not. What I do know is that you expect us to take your word over that of another, yet you cannot offer any proof to back up your statements. Point is, can you prove to anyone other than yourself that the ammo was in fact MCC??
That maybe true, but there is still no unequivicol proof that the ammo is in fact MCC's.
So, why even use their product in the first place if you were aware of this?
There you go. Basically, at the end of the day you are still going to be stuck with a damaged gun, and you are still wanting to blame someone for it. You can't blame Bushmaster, as its not a factory assembled gun. You can't blame MCC, as you have no way to prove it was their ammo. For all intents and purposes, both Bushmaster and MCC have been absolved of any and all liabilty based on the facts presented in the preceeding pages. I, too, have no dog in this fight. I have never owned a MCC cartridge, and probably never will based on the multitude of other threads. I am just giving you my honest opinion on the information presented in this thread. I think at this point you should be simply glad you were not injured, and accept the fact that you weren't as careful as you could have been. |
| Was the bolt locked completely up in the extension, or partially out of battery? I see no pictures showing the gun locked up, and only the after effects of the owner using a hammer and screwdriver to get the carrier back. I noticed two very specific angled chunks on the bolt lugs (that didn't shear the enitire portion of the lugs themselves), and there was mention of parts of the extractor blown out of the gun. Were all the lugs affected in the same fashion? |
|
He sent it to Bushmaster for a second opinion, and this is their statement: Dear Sir, On inspection of your rifle, we found that the only Bushmaster component was the stripped lower reciever. The inspection did show that the headspace was within specification. Firing pin protrusion checked OK. Bolt Measured OK. A squib round was found in the bore that caused the cartridge case head to fail due to the subsequent pressure in the bore forcing back through the action when the bolt unlocked. The rear of the lugs on the bolt have impressions on them from the barrel extension showing the the bolt was closed and locked when the cartridge was fired and the excess pressure was produced. The AR type rifles cannot fire out of battery as the firing pin stop in the bolt carrier does not allow for firing pin protrusion until the bolt is closed and locked on a round. The only way that a round can fire ouf of battery, which did not occur in this case, is if a primer was faulty, improperly installed or there was a piece of foreign material between the bolt and the primer setting it off. |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - My AR15 KaBoomed - from Maine Cartridge Co. SS109 (Updated Page 14 More Lying/More Stupidity) (Page 7 of 7)
AR Sponsor