NEW - VLTOR FORGED MUR UPPER RECEIVER - Page 2

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - NEW - VLTOR FORGED MUR UPPER RECEIVER (Page 2 of 2)

Posted: 9/3/2008 4:34:48 PM EDT

[#1]

[quote}

question, what holds the forwards assist/ shell deflector in place other than a 1/16th roll pin?

The Bolt-Assist/Shell Deflector is Dove-tailed in and pinned in place.
It's quite simple. Please tell the readers that Vltor doesn't recommend
the deflector to be removed. Only Vltor can remove the deflector or the
warranty will be voided.

THERE'S A BIT MORE THAN THAT. THE BOLT ASSIST/SHELL DEFLECTOR IS BOTH DOVE TAILED AND ROLL PINNED IN PLACE.

FOR THE DO-IT-YOURSELF CROWD, PLEASE BE AWARE THAT ONLY VLTOR CAN REMOVE THE DEFLECTOR; OTHERWISE, THE WARRANTY IS VOIDED.

GOOD SHOOTING,

WES

Posted: 9/13/2008 2:23:11 PM EDT

[#2]

Will the new forged version be any less dimensionally accurate?

I thought the whold point of using billet was for better fixturing precision than allowed by a forging.

Posted: 9/13/2008 8:04:40 PM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:
Will the new forged version be any less dimensionally accurate?

no...everything's still machined.

Posted: 9/13/2008 8:16:55 PM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Will the new forged version be any less dimensionally accurate?

no...everything's still machined.

However this comes out I actually mean it as a serious question and not a flame. What seems like a long time ago Wes touted the Larue and Vltor billet uppers as a great solution to a huge problem of out of spec forged uppers that weren't square.

So the question is how is a machined forged Vltor MUR going to be more dimensionally accurate that a machined forged standard upper?

Posted: 9/13/2008 10:59:12 PM EDT

[#5]

CERTAINLY A FAIR QUESTION.

THE PROBLEM WAS NOT THAT CONVENTIONAL RECEIVERS WERE FORGED. THE PROBLEM WAS THAT CONVENTIONAL RECEIVERS WERE NOT DIMENSIONALLY ACCURATE. BILLET WAS AN ALTERNATIVE THAT BOTH VLTOR AND LARUE MOVED TOWARD AS A MEANS OF SOLVING THE DIMENSIONAL PROBLEMS WE WERE EXPERIENCING.

NOW, VLTOR SEEMS TO BE ABLE TO MAKE FORGED RECEIVERS THAT ARE CONSISTENTLY DIMENSIONALLY ACCURATE. WE'VE WORKED WITH THEM FOR SOME MONTHS NOW WITH NARY AN ISSUE.

I GUESS THIS MAKES VLTOR'S CURRENT RECEIVERS UNCONVENTIONAL FORGED RECEIVERS.

GOOD SHOOTING,

WES

Posted: 9/13/2008 11:45:52 PM EDT

[#6]

Is there some kind of production hiatus at Vltor? No one seems to have MURs in stock.

I've e-mailed them to ask, but no response yet.

Posted: 9/14/2008 10:39:24 AM EDT

[#7]

So are you saying the forging dies were just worn out, or was there a lack of QC going on in the machining operartion?

There was something else that jumped into my mind (a very scary place) upon my first glance at the new forged MUR uppers. It looks like the removal of material to allow the use of the Larue looking tabs would compromise the added strength of the MUR.

Posted: 9/15/2008 4:47:16 AM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:
Is there some kind of production hiatus at Vltor? No one seems to have MURs in stock.

I've e-mailed them to ask, but no response yet.

I'VE HAD BOTH THE VLTOR MUR AND VIS ON ORDER FOR SOME CONSIDERABLE TIME, MYSELF. AN MSTN CUSTOMER RECENTLY HAD TO OBTAIN A VLTOR MUR FROM ANOTHER DEALER SO I COULD FINISH HIS CUSTOM BUILD PRIOR TO DEPLOYMENT.

I SPOKE TO VLTOR LAST WEEK; I WAS TOLD TO EXPECT DELIVERY SOON.

I'M ALSO WAITING ON LARUE STEALTH RECEIVERS AND FORENDS. AND LMT PISTON MRP'S, STRIPPED UPPERS, AND BOLT CARRIER GROUPS. AND NOVESKE BARRELS. AND NIGHTFORCE SCOPES. AND ....

IT'S LIKE THERE'S A WAR GOING ON OR SOMETHING .....

GOOD SHOOTING,

WES

Posted: 9/15/2008 4:57:01 AM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:
So are you saying the forging dies were just worn out, or was there a lack of QC going on in the machining operartion?

There was something else that jumped into my mind (a very scary place) upon my first glance at the new forged MUR uppers. It looks like the removal of material to allow the use of the Larue looking tabs would compromise the added strength of the MUR.

I CAN'T EXPLAIN PRECISELY WHY CONVENTIONAL FORGED RECEIVER QUALITY TOOK SUCH A PLUNGE, BUT I CAN REPORT WITH NO EQUIVOCATION THAT IT INDEED DID. I SUSPECT IT WAS DUE TO MULTIPLE CAUSES, NOT THE LEAST OF WHICH IS INCREASED DEMAND.

A VERY SMALL AMOUNT OF MATERIAL WAS REMOVED FROM THE FORWARD EDGE OF THE MUR RECEIVER TO ACCEPT THE WAFER-THIN LARUE LOCKING TAB OR "KEEPER". BOTH THE LOCATION AND MINOR AMOUNT OF MATERIAL REMOVED SHOULD PRECLUDE ANY DEGRADATION OF STRENGTH.

GOOD SHOOTING,

WES

Posted: 9/15/2008 5:53:15 PM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:
So are you saying the forging dies were just worn out, or was there a lack of QC going on in the machining operartion?

i think the 'dimensionally correct' question also refers to what dimensions the receivers are being machined to, besides how well. basically, what is the source of those dimensions and associated tolerances? the TDP, or reverse engineering?
vltor doesn't claim that they machine the receivers to a 'tighter' spec or that they're the only correct ones out there - they're just assuring the customer that MURs are machined to the correct spec and tolerances. there are others, of course, who produce high-quality receivers to the correct spec and tolerances, and we've all seen examples of others who don't.

Posted: 9/15/2008 6:30:53 PM EDT

[#11]

I got a reply from Vltor today in regards to my query about MUR availability:

Dear Wesley, Our changing to forgings for our MUR's & VIS's hasn't affected production at all. The reality of it is that demand is outstripping supply. We receive more orders than we can fill. However, within the next several months we hope to ramp up production to offset this imbalance.

As far as finding a stocking vendor, I'd recommend the following:

G&R Tactical
MSTN
BravoCompanyUSA
ADCO
Noveske

If none of them have any in stock, feel free to give us a call and place an order. While we're running approximately 6-8 weeks on new orders it could possibly come sooner.

Thank you for using VLTOR,

Blaine Wilson
Sales Associate
VLTOR Weapons Systems
520-408-1944 Office
520-293-8807 Fax

Posted: 9/20/2008 5:28:39 PM EDT

[#12]

Is the mur 1A the billit or the forged?

Posted: 9/21/2008 3:53:49 PM EDT

[#13]

I have the 1st Gen Vltor MUR, and I could not wait to save up for a FF, so I went ahead and bought an MI Carbine lenght drop in for my M4 profile barrel. It was $125, so I could not resist temtaion. I primarily got it because I have KAC pannels and VFG that have been collecting dust now for a few months. It was not really inteded to be a precion rifle, but none the less I have the billet MUR. Was it pointless to invest that much money in an upper for the kind of rifle it is. Is the durability factor that big of a plus, or WERE THESE UPPERS MEANT TO BE USED WITH A FF, FOR PRECISION RIFLES. Right now I kinda feel like I either wasted my money on the upper, or I should have just saved up for a FF and got an 18" noveske barrel?

Posted: 9/22/2008 6:49:07 PM EDT

[#14]

schwome: only YOU can answer that question definitivley.

But to me it sounds like yes, you did waste your money on your MUR; for a general-purpose carbine any old upper would do- the MUR is best suited for Precision builds.

One of the reasons these recievers came about was that on some recievers the barrel nut threads are not aligned correctly with the bore axis, thus causing misalignment with a FF tube.

All is not lost, though...buy another regular flat-top. disassemble your rifle and put the old barrel on it. Buy a match grade barrel and install it, along with an FF handguard, and create a Precision build.

*****

I just found a place that has the MUR in stock: Noveske Rifleworks. I bought two; they only have a few left, so if you want one, better act now!

Posted: 9/23/2008 8:32:56 AM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:
schwome: only YOU can answer that question definitivley.

But to me it sounds like yes, you did waste your money on your MUR; for a general-purpose carbine any old upper would do- the MUR is best suited for Precision builds.

One of the reasons these recievers came about was that on some recievers the barrel nut threads are not aligned correctly with the bore axis, thus causing misalignment with a FF tube.

All is not lost, though...buy another regular flat-top. disassemble your rifle and put the old barrel on it. Buy a match grade barrel and install it, along with an FF handguard, and create a Precision build.

*****

I just found a place that has the MUR in stock: Noveske Rifleworks. I bought two; they only have a few left, so if you want one, better act now!

Thanks 3crowns. I am probably gona stick with what I got for now and maybe get a stag arms upper, Noveske 18", and another MI rifle lenght FF to go on the MUR along with swaping out the barrels later on down the road. I like my M93B too, but I may build another lower with a CTR for my m4gery later on too.

If that makes any sence

Posted: 9/30/2008 5:42:46 PM EDT

[#16]

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=12&t=397125

Posted: 10/1/2008 4:33:04 PM EDT

[#17]

What grip is that on those rifles?
Thanks

Posted: 10/5/2008 4:55:31 PM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Is there some kind of production hiatus at Vltor? No one seems to have MURs in stock.

I've e-mailed them to ask, but no response yet.

I'VE HAD BOTH THE VLTOR MUR AND VIS ON ORDER FOR SOME CONSIDERABLE TIME, MYSELF. AN MSTN CUSTOMER RECENTLY HAD TO OBTAIN A VLTOR MUR FROM ANOTHER DEALER SO I COULD FINISH HIS CUSTOM BUILD PRIOR TO DEPLOYMENT.

I SPOKE TO VLTOR LAST WEEK; I WAS TOLD TO EXPECT DELIVERY SOON.

I'M ALSO WAITING ON LARUE STEALTH RECEIVERS AND FORENDS. AND LMT PISTON MRP'S, STRIPPED UPPERS, AND BOLT CARRIER GROUPS. AND NOVESKE BARRELS. AND NIGHTFORCE SCOPES. AND ....

IT'S LIKE THERE'S A WAR GOING ON OR SOMETHING .....

GOOD SHOOTING,

WES

Or an election...

Posted: 10/5/2008 7:17:38 PM EDT

[#19]

YOU MAY BE ONTO SOMETHING, PEARSON.

Posted: 10/10/2008 9:04:18 AM EDT

[#20]

Vltor MUR upper receivers were much better when they were billet.

I wish they wouldnt have switched. Forgings are half the price or less from a production standpoint but the quality is substancially less.

I wont use MUR Uppers anymore on custom builds. If you strip one of their new forgings down there are way to many flaws for my taste at that price. I build many custom rifles for LE and other Govt. agencies and I am very dissappointed they switched.

A forged upper receiver doesnt warrant the price they ask for them. Its a rip off as a forging from my chair. I can get 3 standard forged uppers for the same price and there is no functional difference between them. I dont get it , why would they take a good product and ruin it by switching to forgings. GAY

Very soon there will be another 556 billet upper receiver hitting the market for less money and better quality. Im waiting anxiously.

This is my opinion. Everyones got one!!!!

Posted: 10/10/2008 1:27:18 PM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:
If you strip one of their new forgings down there are way to many flaws for my taste at that price.

let's see some photos of the one you stripped down, with all the flaws pointed out.

Posted: 10/11/2008 8:06:49 PM EDT

[#22]

I have had both billet MURs in the past. I now have two forged ones waiting to be built; where should I be looking on them for substandard finishing?

Posted: 10/12/2008 9:54:51 PM EDT

[#23]

Im not saying that they are bad uppers Im just saying in my opinion no forged receiver is worth the money they ask for.

When you strip / etch any forging that is how you can check the quality of the forging.

bead blasting methods for removing the anodize and hard coat hides the flaws

When I stripped 4 different MUR upper recievers they had numerous pits and tiny air pockets from the forging process. The hard coat that Vltor puts on over the anodize fills these pits and pockets. I have seen worse forgings and I have seen better.

Im not saying all of VLTOR's forgings are like this Im just presenting what I found with the few I ordered and checked.

I really liked using VLTOR MUR uppers for all my LE custom builds but now since they switched I wont use them anymore because Im not paying that much for a forging.

I manufacture AR15 forged receivers and Billet 308 receivers so I know what Im talking about. I don't make things up I present my findings honestly and fairly.

I know that machining from a forging costs about 25% of compared to machining from solid billet. So since thats the case why is the price the same?????

VLTOR has always had a reputation for quality products and I think they took a step backwards when they switched.

Its just not worth the dough to me

Good luck on your builds.

I will take some pics and post them as soon as I get a chance.

Posted: 10/12/2008 9:58:34 PM EDT

[#24]

The MUR has a lot more machine work... look at how it is made.

Posted: 10/12/2008 10:00:36 PM EDT

[#25]

height=8

The MUR has a lot more machine work... look at how it is made.

You dont make sense. its a forging

Posted: 10/12/2008 10:03:02 PM EDT

[#26]

Every critical surface on it was machined. That means it has the same tolerances as the previous version, but with the added strength of a forging.

Posted: 10/12/2008 10:14:58 PM EDT

[#27]

Dude Im a machinist and FFL 07 manufacturer.

I make firearms for many companies around the US and outside the US.

Firearms forgings like these are held to about + - 10 thou.

machining 101 -- unless they zero every part individually (which they dont) there is no way to keep the same tolerances as the billet.

LOL ---- IMPOSSIBLE

Posted: 10/13/2008 9:00:48 AM EDT

[#28]

Well, that certainly muddied the waters.

Posted: 10/13/2008 9:56:19 AM EDT

[#29]

From what I'm seeing the MUR leaves more material, meaning that all critical surfaces are machined rather than forged. Only the parts that don't really matter are left in their forged state.

When you cut the rail on a flat top, do you make cuts along every surface to ensure that it is true? I mean, is the height of the rail from the forging, or the cut? The sides? Etc...

Posted: 10/13/2008 1:04:10 PM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:machining 101 -- unless they zero every part individually (which they dont) there is no way to keep the same tolerances as the billet.

I don't understand. Isn't it the same thing: putting a billet blank in a fixture, and putting a forged blank into a fixture?

Posted: 10/13/2008 2:19:52 PM EDT

[#31]

Ok for the lamen

A forging is a preformed shape that is stamped and pressed together at high temp and lots of pressure. When forgings cool they dont always cool at the same rate therefore the expansion and contraction of the metal heating and cooling causes differences in tolerances from one part to the next.

When you fixture forgings if one forging is 10 thou thicker than the next the tooling or bits start at different points on each individual forging. Thats why sometimes you will see steps or tooling marks randomly in forgings and if you put a caliper on ten different receivers from the same company and measure distances from the takedown pin hole to different surfaces I doubt you could ever find 10 exactly alike

Billet- You start with a solid block of materal and you cut every surface and every radius from scratch. There are no preformed surfaces its a square. Every billet receiver should be exactly the same as the next without any tolerance differences.

If this doesnt answer your questions then you should stop asking them because its above your grasp.

Posted: 10/13/2008 5:49:22 PM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:
machining 101 -- unless they zero every part individually (which they dont) there is no way to keep the same tolerances as the billet.

what variance in dimensions have you seen in the forged MUR vs the billet ones, when measuring multiple receivers?

Posted: 10/13/2008 7:27:38 PM EDT

[#33]

Quoted:
Ok for the lamen

A forging is a preformed shape that is stamped and pressed together at high temp and lots of pressure. When forgings cool they dont always cool at the same rate therefore the expansion and contraction of the metal heating and cooling causes differences in tolerances from one part to the next.

When you fixture forgings if one forging is 10 thou thicker than the next the tooling or bits start at different points on each individual forging. Thats why sometimes you will see steps or tooling marks randomly in forgings and if you put a caliper on ten different receivers from the same company and measure distances from the takedown pin hole to different surfaces I doubt you could ever find 10 exactly alike

Billet- You start with a solid block of materal and you cut every surface and every radius from scratch. There are no preformed surfaces its a square. Every billet receiver should be exactly the same as the next without any tolerance differences.

If this doesnt answer your questions then you should stop asking them because its above your grasp.

Interesting info, but your last statement was kind of insulting. Don't know if you intended it to be so, though.

And you misspelled "laymen". That was not a snarky remark, but on the internets it could be taken as such. See?

Posted: 10/13/2008 7:49:37 PM EDT

[#34]

lol sorry I was in a hurry,

Im not insulting anyone its just the truth. If that explanation doesn't help Im not sure what would.

Good luck

Posted: 10/28/2008 4:48:15 AM EDT

[#35]

Quoted:

Quoted:
machining 101 –– unless they zero every part individually (which they dont) there is no way to keep the same tolerances as the billet.

what variance in dimensions have you seen in the forged MUR vs the billet ones, when measuring multiple receivers?

I'd also like to know...

Posted: 10/30/2008 10:20:11 AM EDT

[#36]

Quoted:

Quoted:
machining 101 –– unless they zero every part individually (which they dont) there is no way to keep the same tolerances as the billet.

what variance in dimensions have you seen in the forged MUR vs the billet ones, when measuring multiple receivers?

I'd also like to know...

Here's what you need to know about forged stuff vs. billets, with respect to dimensions:
Forged stuff gets machined afterwards anyway. All the critical tolerances are still retained. The non critical parts (eg. outer diameter, sharp pretty corners, non-contact points, etc) simply don't get remachined, because it's pointless to do so. Machining from billet just for the sake of it is foolish - many smaller companies opt to do this is because forging equipment can be expensive, but cost effective in the long run. It's easier to purchase a CNC machine that can do a lot of jobs, rather than a single forging die. Forgings can be inherently stronger too (the added weight comes from the compression of the aluminum during the forging process).

So to say the tolerances are not the same is true: just look at the corners. But really, its arbitrary. The important tolerances are the same.

Posted: 10/30/2008 11:24:15 AM EDT

[#37]

Quoted:
If that explanation doesn't help Im not sure what would.

Actually, that was informative. You'll have to excuse me but I don't always believe every self-proclaimed "expert" on forums unless they can take the time to educate and inform.

Regarding your comments: So when trimming a forging (I assume it is roughly close to the final product) there is always some initial reference point on the forging that all other dimensions are referenced to? I can understand that if the forging is slightly undersized at some point that no metal would be removed. I guess I assume that most of the working surfaces (not simply external dimensions) where parts interact would be machined. is that correct?

C97

Posted: 10/30/2008 11:24:29 AM EDT

[#38]

Quoted:
If that explanation doesn't help Im not sure what would.

Actually, that was informative. You'll have to excuse me but I don't always believe every self-proclaimed "expert" on forums unless they can take the time to educate and inform.

Regarding your comments: So when trimming a forging (I assume it is roughly close to the final product) there is always some initial reference point on the forging that all other dimensions are referenced to? I can understand that if the forging is slightly undersized at some point that no metal would be removed. I guess I assume that most of the working surfaces (not simply external dimensions) where parts interact would be machined. is that correct?

C97

Posted: 10/31/2008 11:05:07 PM EDT

[#39]

Quoted:

Here's what you need to know about forged stuff vs. billets, with respect to dimensions:

my question wasn't a general/theoretical one about machining forgings vs billet. i was specifically asking the poster what variance in dimensions (the critical ones of course) has he personally measured with his own tools and seen in the forged vs. billet vltor MUR receivers to cause him to make his statements. in other words, i want to see numbers that he has personally measured on multiple forged MURS that are out of the allowed tolerance specified on the TDP.

Posted: 11/2/2008 5:14:30 AM EDT

[#40]

WHEN SOMEONE AVOIDS A QUESTION, ISN'T THAT AN ANSWER OF SORTS?

WES

Posted: 11/2/2008 7:40:52 AM EDT

[#41]

yup, it usually is.

Posted: 11/3/2008 1:50:36 PM EDT

[#42]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Here's what you need to know about forged stuff vs. billets, with respect to dimensions:

my question wasn't a general/theoretical one about machining forgings vs billet. i was specifically asking the poster what variance in dimensions (the critical ones of course) has he personally measured with his own tools and seen in the forged vs. billet vltor MUR receivers to cause him to make his statements. in other words, i want to see numbers that he has personally measured on multiple forged MURS that are out of the allowed tolerance specified on the TDP.

Well, I'm sure he would be hard pressed to to try to find you exact specs in tolerance variations and such, as this would require a batch of forged and billeted receivers to do a statistical measurement on. I think he's not in a position to actually tell you any exact numbers, but rather, as a person who has had experience in manufacturing, he can tell you what can be expected out of a forging versus a billet.

That being said, I don't think your question would garner any exact numerical answers. If you were to ask me that question, I could probably tell you that, as a student of engineering, I would have answered in the way i did in my previous post.

My previous post was just to help clarify any doubts or lamentations from would-be MUR1 consumers from VLTOR's transition into forged receivers. If i had to pick between the forged or the billet, i would pick the forged.

Hope this clears this up

Posted: 11/3/2008 6:13:28 PM EDT

[#43]

Are there TWO versions of the new forged MUR?

Notice in the top MSTN pic the MUR has been milled away at the front, to accomodate the anti-rotation device on the LaRue handguard, this cut is absent in the Stickman pic below.

Posted: 11/3/2008 9:24:10 PM EDT

[#44]

Quoted:

Well, I'm sure he would be hard pressed to to try to find you exact specs in tolerance variations and such, as this would require a batch of forged and billeted receivers to do a statistical measurement on. I think he's not in a position to actually tell you any exact numbers, but rather, as a person who has had experience in manufacturing, he can tell you what can be expected out of a forging versus a billet.

i'm not interested in theory; i'd just like him to provide empirical evidence to support his statements.

Posted: 11/7/2008 9:06:02 PM EDT

[#45]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Well, I'm sure he would be hard pressed to to try to find you exact specs in tolerance variations and such, as this would require a batch of forged and billeted receivers to do a statistical measurement on. I think he's not in a position to actually tell you any exact numbers, but rather, as a person who has had experience in manufacturing, he can tell you what can be expected out of a forging versus a billet.

i'm not interested in theory; i'd just like him to provide empirical evidence to support his statements.

Well in a perfect world, that I could give it to you if i could. But either way, the whole argument is moot, because your important tolerances are probably in place, anyways. Any part that cannot otherwise be of the highest manufacturing tolerance due to the forging process as opposed to the billet, is most likely a non-critical dimension. If everything just had to be within .001" everywhere, then they would not have gone to forging in the first place. In my opinion, the forging is a step up from the billet. The forging is stronger, while sacrificing some non-critical tolerances, and hey - its the same price for a better product - so overall, its a good deal, so we should all be happy. The damn thing works, right? That's all we should be concerned about

Posted: 11/11/2008 12:04:36 PM EDT

[#46]

Are there any pics of the FORGED Vltor V.I.S.?

Posted: 11/11/2008 1:35:32 PM EDT

[#47]

Quoted:
Are there any pics of the FORGED Vltor V.I.S.?

Posted: 11/11/2008 4:30:29 PM EDT

[#48]

That is the MUR. I would like to see the V.I.S.

Posted: 11/11/2008 10:35:14 PM EDT

[#49]

I'VE YET TO SEE A VIS WITH A FORGED RECEIVER, BUT I HEAR THEY WILL BE FORTHCOMING.

WES

Posted: 11/12/2008 5:19:21 PM EDT

[#50]

Just got my MUR, I didn't realize that it was going to be forged... I assumed that they were still billet. I bought it to match up to my TI T15 BBX billet lower.. I gotta say I sure like the look of the older billet MUR's. Now to see if I can find someone who has a new old stock there willing to trade for the new "stronger" forged.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - NEW - VLTOR FORGED MUR UPPER RECEIVER (Page 2 of 2)

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