Palmetto PA-10 - Is the barrel index pin killing my barrel nut? - Page 2

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Palmetto PA-10 - Is the barrel index pin killing my barrel nut? (Page 2 of 2)

Posted: 11/11/2019 7:51:45 PM EDT

[#1]

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Quoted:

Even after the modifications, if you would like me to take a look at this for you, I will. I apologize for any frustration. We have had excellent results with our Gen2 and Gen3 barrels.

Thank you,

Josiah

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That's might decent of you to offer Josiah.

Asswipe Governor of Virginia says he's coming to confiscate this rifle as soon as him and all his asswipes on the warpath can get a law passed. Looks like he might have enough asswipes this time to do exactly that. Don't want to put this in the mail, and then make you a felon for sending it back to me.

Posted: 11/11/2019 7:59:58 PM EDT

[#2]

Shooter's snug.
Sights are snug.
Barrel is snug in receiver.
Nothing pushing on barrel.
Decent loads.

I'll agree that barrel is a volleyball bat.

Posted: 11/11/2019 8:00:03 PM EDT

[#3]

Quote History

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Little range report.

I shot the PA-10 with Federal Gold Medal 168. I’d say it shot the FGM a little bit better than my TAC 41.1 / 168SMK.
But not by much. Definitely not enough to commend the Palmetto barrel. I’ll post a couple of those targets shortly.

But first, I want to show y’all something about that TAC handload of mine fired from a different rifle. Again, all firing at 200 yards, prone, sling-support only.

DPMS LR-308-T, unmodified except Geissele trigger and the UBR buttstock. Service rifle sling not shown in this pic.

https://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd7/rkba2da/rifle%20pics/DPMS/DPMS%20LR-308%20with%20UBR%20and%20scope_zps7ztulpbp.jpg

This pic shows the 10-shot target. I bracketed the actual target with a paper target that is the correct 600-yard-reduced-for-200, and the Shoot-N-C target that has appeared in some of the previous target pics I’ve posted.

This is the kind of accuracy to which I’m accustomed, and which I require of any rifle I will use in competition. The two lowest shots, were called low when fired. No crazy off-call shots like the PA-10 routinely sends. The TAC load wasn’t “developed” for that rifle unless roughly matching 41.5 IMR4895 velocity constitutes “development.”

https://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd7/rkba2da/rifle%20pics/Palmetto%20PA-10/dpms%20target_zpsllztyphz.jpg

Some folks have commented that I should look at the load. “Develop” a load that the gun likes. Sometimes it really is the load. I get that concept.

Can we agree that sometimes the barrel (or something else with the gun) is the root of the problem, and not the ammunition? I truly believe it’s THE GUN in the case of the PA-10.

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Yep, sometimes it is the barrel/ gun.

Only other thing I'd say to try if it won't put you out more money would be to try a handguard with a steel barrel nut?

Sling prone puts a strain on things, maybe enough to tweak on the barrel nut and cause what you're seeing.

I may have missed it, have you shot from a bag (unstrained, as it were) and gotten the same results?

Posted: 11/11/2019 8:08:38 PM EDT

[#4]

I'm a complete dork shooting off sandbags and rests.

I would never vouch for or against the inherent accuracy of any rifle I fired off a benchrest rig. I know some folks are real good at it. I'm not one of them

I've been shooting rifles prone, with a sling, A LOT, since 1992. I trust my hold if I'm in the sling. There's lotta folks who are a lot better at it than me - especially if wind becomes a factor. But, I'll allow I'm pretty good when I get on my belly with a sling.

Posted: 11/11/2019 8:23:59 PM EDT

[#5]

I get it, just throwing out ways to maybe nail down if it's truly the barrel, or the aluminum nut.

I enjoy shooting from a sling, but my scores say I suck at it, don't have nearly the time put into it you do though.

Posted: 11/11/2019 8:41:25 PM EDT

[#6]

I should point out that the objective of this rifle was to enter as an M110-compliant service rifle in CMP matches.

So it HAS TO shoot well from prone sling-supported position, or it’s not of much use to me.

Posted: 11/11/2019 8:57:38 PM EDT

[#7]

I may have missed it but did you check the crown?

Posted: 11/11/2019 10:56:20 PM EDT

[#8]

Crown looked good to me. And I did look. More than once.

But I didn't examine gage it with a 0.0001 indicator, or run it it under an electron microscope.

The crown is whatever condition it came from the vendor. I'm 100% sure I've done nothing to change the condition of the crown since it was delivered new.

I don't know whether Palmetto "stress-relieves" their barrels before installing.
I doubt it. If they were doing it, it seems like its something they woudl tout - which they don't

On stress- relieving generally, see https://www.bevfitchett.us/rifling-machine-supplement/stress-relieving.html

Posted: 11/11/2019 11:30:45 PM EDT

[#9]

Nvm

Posted: 11/12/2019 10:32:12 PM EDT

[#10]

That's a good point? We have avacuum furnace at work? Hmmm. I read this in there too. But i wouldn't want to ruin the barrel.

"One hour of stress relieving at 870°C relieves about 85% of residual stresses."

Edit:nm says should be done before machining.

Posted: 11/14/2019 11:51:55 AM EDT

[#11]

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By filling the gas key with more tube, you are reducing the gas key volume, which causes the pressure to stay higher and accelerate the BCG to a faster speed than the shorter tube.. Further, the tube staying engaged in the key for that longer distance causes the pressure to be maintained longer than with the shorter tube, keeping the BCG speed up for longer.

I really would recommend giving the original gas tube a shot. If it doesn't run then go back to what you had. If it does run and you see the other issues resolved then it's a win. You should be able to swap the gas tube in the field with just a few hand tools.

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I have been pondering this comment quite a bit.

Especially considering the Armalite uses 3 exhaust ports on the bolt carrier, v. 2 exhaust ports on a DPMS bolt carrier for the gas ring exhausting... and we all know how "fussy" large frame AR's can be, gas wise.

I also think maybe switching back to the PSA OEM length gas tube has some merit.

I'm not saying it will fix any specific issue, but I do think the added length of the Armalite length gas tube "probably" speeds up bolt unlocking. And that isn't desirable to me at all.

BTW.... @W_E_G , because we all enjoy photos.. got any of the complete PSA ?

Posted: 11/15/2019 10:14:18 AM EDT

[#12]

Quote History

Quoted:

BTW.... @W_E_G , because we all enjoy photos.. got any of the complete PSA ?

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I'm probably gonna just mothball it at this point.
I've tested everything I can test. I've fixed everything I can fix - except the barrel.

Whether its the barrel (I suspect it is), or something else (I've changed damn-near everything else on the gun!), what I know for sure is, this rifle does not shoot to the standard of accuracy I demand for the purpose of which I intended it.

Configured as best as I can to comply with the "service rifle" rule for M-110 rifle in NRA/CMP National Match competition.

Virginia gun laws do not bode well for this rifle in 2020. If it isn't legal to be seen with it in public on July 1, you won't be seeing me with it in public.

Posted: 11/16/2019 6:11:02 AM EDT

[#13]

W_E_G... Sorry to hear about the future Anti 2nd environment.. And I thought it was bad in my neck of the woods.

And because I am not particularly observant about posters names... I just saw what WECSOG stands for.... Lol.

FWIW...
If you are inclined... I would buy the complete upper from you. ( Sans the scope and mount , etc.. )

I'd love to buy the whole thing, but the laws out here are all wonky now as well... so the lower is what turns into a PITA out here.

Basically..More Socialist stupidity out here as well.

Classes, approvals on and on... getting ready to move to a free state as soon as I can.

But....I am still super curious about the whole danged thing.

If you are willing... I would prefer you permanently mark the barrel, and BCG.. so it could be readily shown to be the same one. ( for those doubting Thomas's, Lol )

I'd love to check out the BCG and RE.. I understand completely about its current "condition" and issues.... ( Publicly stating , so no liability on your end )

And maybe figure out its other friggin' problems.. Lol

If you prefer not to... I completely understand.

Posted: 11/16/2019 5:09:51 PM EDT

[#14]

How about I offer you first dibs.

I just had a big screaming hissy fit about not wanting to be a felon and such after the end of the match today.

Young fella mentioned after I quit spittin' and cussin' and kicking the furniture, that he heard that "the republicans were going to cut a deal" on November 17 (that's tomorrow) with the current legislature.
All the new democrats don't get sworn-in until January.

He didn't seem to have any specifics - or if he did, he wasn't telling. I think he is professionally positioned to maybe know some stuff that isn't currently public knowledge. So, who knows what this November 17 is really all about. Maybe all it means is we'll get just the tip for Christmas. The whole shaft in January?

Either way, I might not have much use for the upper - or any of the rest of it - pretty soon. For a whole lotta reasons.

I priced the parts for a proper match-rifle that won't run afoul of the box-fed-semi-auto ban. Looking to be north of $3000 by the time the dust settles. DAMN it.

Oh yeah, the WECSOG thing. That was from an engineering school calculus class where the prof. told the class that if they didn't shape up, they'd be lucky to get hired at the Wile E. Coyote School of Gunsmithin'. I thought that observation was appropos, and quite hilarious. So, I adopted the expression, and ran with it on the internet. The acronym seemed to offer a certain everyman-cachet. Guns and Ammo magazine gave me a nod on the "Shooters Almanac" page in 2007. See the box "Gun Terms" toward bottom of page.

Posted: 11/16/2019 10:16:14 PM EDT

[#15]

First dibs is GTG.

And thanks for the WECSOG story !

Posted: 11/17/2019 1:33:12 PM EDT

[#16]

@W_E_G ... thought you might be interested in this.

https://www.ar15.com/forums/AR-15/Any-more-info-on-the-Savage-MSR-10-bolt-lug-wear-/121-745691/

Posted: 11/17/2019 7:35:31 PM EDT

[#17]

I deadlined my Palmetto bolt at around 700 rounds when at least 25% of the engagment surface of each lug was missing.

Posted: 11/17/2019 7:55:03 PM EDT

[#18]

Dibs on the lower! Lol jk. Let us know how the new bolt goes. And the solution to the problem.

I'm going to check out the next nra rifle comp.
You talked about though it's a bit of a drive.

@bfoosh06

Just curious, i know you shot alot through your original barrel, what did your bullet look like?

Posted: 11/18/2019 9:43:00 AM EDT

[#19]

Are you sure you typed that right?

My bullet?

Ummm... it looks like a 168 Sierra.

Message me, and we can set up a time for me to informally run you through the National Match course of fire at my club (or at YOUR club).

Posted: 11/18/2019 10:54:04 AM EDT

[#20]

Quote History

Quoted:
Dibs on the lower! Lol jk. Let us know how the new bolt goes. And the solution to the problem.

I'm going to check out the next nra rifle comp.
You talked about though it's a bit of a drive.

@bfoosh06

Just curious, i know you shot alot through your original barrel, what did your bullet look like?

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If you mean "what does my bolt look like ? " all of them are GTG.... Toolcrafts, PSA, and various other rebranded Toolcraft BCG's ... IMHO, PSA has been using Toolcraft Bolts for quite some time... ( and judging by the descriptions on my "Order History" at PSA. )
Some of the order descriptions flat out say Toolcraft BCG.

None of mine have had this issue.. for that matter none have had the lower battering either.

BUT, I didn't like the vigorous cyclic speed from the OEM product... and it didn't take long for me to change parts to slow the cyclic speed.

I changed the parts, only because of the vigorous cyclic speed... not because of any odd parts wear.

I should add... I use the "same" setup on numerous different brand barrels and gas system lengths and stock setups... it just works for me.

None of the PA10's and PA65' are still OEM... I changed buffers to the heaviest I could find. Installed .308 Tubbs flatwire recoil springs, and have Adj. GB's on all of them. And any carbine stocks got a Limbsaver recoil pad.

I have taken them apart to inspect the bolts for lug wear a few times before, and never found any.

I cannot comment on whether or not they "could" have become battered in the OEM condition. Again... the cyclic speed and the firearm being mine, prompted me to alter it to my desired state.

I kinda wish I had left 1 in OEM condition... but hindsight is just that... and I enjoyed the slower cyclic speed so much, I didn't even look back from the 1st successful parts swap.... merrily altering the firearms into the configuration I enjoyed.

The slower cyclic speed ... by just milliseconds... results in many benifits for me.

Easier at the bench and on the shoulder
Easier follow up shots
Easier on the brass
Easier on the parts...etc

Posted: 11/18/2019 10:14:54 PM EDT

[#21]

Quote History

Quoted:
Are you sure you typed that right?

My bullet?

Ummm... it looks like a 168 Sierra.

Message me, and we can set up a time for me to informally run you through the National Match course of fire at my club (or at YOUR club).

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Sry, yeah the bolt is what i meant. That sounds awesome actually.

@bfoosh06

Roger that, i will Monitor the bolt to see if the beating gets worse. My finances have kept me off the range here lately, so i hope to get out there asap, get some range time soon.

Posted: 11/18/2019 10:53:59 PM EDT

[#22]

Quote History

Quoted:

Sry, yeah the bolt is what i meant.

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I've only given it a cursory examination. Just yanked it out for a glance before putting it back in the case at the range during the testing session.

"Looks good to me" as they say.

I need to detail-clean it to be sure.

The range-time offer stands.