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I do have one general question for the ammo ballistics experts here.
On my informal target, my standard Hornady 75 grain handloads print about an inch higher than the Hornady NATO SuperPerformance 75 grain. My scope is setup so that my Point of Aim for my handloads is the Bullseye @ 100 yards and the Point of Impact is 1" above the Bullseye, which is where my reloads shot to. I am no ballistics expert but after looking at some ballistics programs, the POI of the much faster SuperPerformance bullet should have been printing higher than the same bullet in my reloads? I do not have a chrono to determine the speed of my handloads, but I assume that they are not cooking as fast as the SuperPerformance rounds. Is this due perhaps to the different peak pressure on the gas piston and the bolt carrier group between the Hodgdon BLC-2 and the Hodgdon SuperPerformance powders? |
The difference in the trajectories of those two loads (exterior ballistics) at 100 yards is insignificant; 0.08".
The shift in the points of impact that you are seeing are due to the differences in barrel harmonics and recoil vectors of the two loads (interior ballistics.) |
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What's strange about this is that I've heard really good things about these Superformance loads in .308 out of bolt guns. I was expecting the .223 offering to do a lot better. where did you hear or experience this? link my replies are on the last page i believe. i have gotten the replacement ammo i just haven't had a chance to shoot the 178's again. Before they were shooting 1.5 inches at 100 yards. with 50% of the primers being popped and i had to hold the gun down and force the bolt open to eject the brass. I would have LOVED to have had chrono data on the original ammo as it was obviously very hot stuff 
Thanks for the link. I had no idea that people were having issues with this ammo. Everything I had heard was "high MV and sub MOA accuracy." |
UPDATE: Hornady 53 grain Superformance 
From Hornady’s website. As previously mentioned, the 53 grain Superformance load uses a brand new bullet from Hornady, the 53 grain V-MAX. 
From Hornady’s website. According to Hornady, this bullet has been “optimized for the .223 Remington chamber.” The pic below shows the new 53 grain V-MAX on the left compared to the 52 grain A-MAX on the right. 
It seemed only fitting to test this new load from a .223 Remington chambered AR-15. The test vehicle was my 24” Krieger barreled AR-15 with a 1:9” twist and naturally, a .223 Remington chamber. 
Shooting was conducted from my bench-rest set-up at a distance of 100 yards. A 10-shot control group using hand-loaded Sierra 55 grain BlitzKings had an extreme spread of 0.63”. 
The 10-shot group of the 53 grain Superfromance load had an extreme spread of 0.70”! 
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Quoted: http://www.box.net/shared/static/sdpjt3h36v.jpg UPDATE: Hornady 53 grain Superformance http://www.box.net/shared/static/k69inf90mx.jpg From Hornady’s website. As previously mentioned, the 53 grain Superformance load uses a brand new bullet from Hornady, the 53 grain V-MAX. http://www.box.net/shared/static/5xclri2sqo.jpg From Hornady’s website. According to Hornady, this bullet has been "optimized for the .223 Remington chamber.” The pic below shows the new 53 grain V-MAX on the left compared to the 52 grain A-MAX on the right. http://www.box.net/shared/static/co0sa2tsdk.jpg It seemed only fitting to test this new load from a .223 Remington chambered AR-15. The test vehicle was my 24” Krieger barreled AR-15 with a 1:9” twist and naturally, a .223 Remington chamber. http://www.box.net/shared/static/4zc0he19fq.jpg Shooting was conducted from my bench-rest set-up at a distance of 100 yards. A 10-shot control group using hand-loaded Sierra 55 grain BlitzKings had an extreme spread of 0.63”. http://www.box.net/shared/static/p9xftrd4un.jpg The 10-shot group of the 53 grain Superfromance load had an extreme spread of 0.70”! http://www.box.net/shared/static/gz5c0rj80f.jpg Holy moly! Is that one of the most accurate commercial loads you've tested? |
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Molon would you say that that is your most accurrate reload that you compared them to? My most accurate hand-load to date for a semi-automatic AR-15 is a similar load for the 55 grain BlitzKing for my 5.56 Match chambered, 1:7.7" twist Krieger barreled AR-15 
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Thats is very impressive on hornady's part. Indeed! |
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The 10-shot group of the 53 grain Superfromance load had an extreme spread of 0.70”! <––-looks for credit card while navigating towards ammo sales website.  Just keep in mind, that group was fired from a .223 Remington chamber. I'm going to shoot it in my heavy-barrelled 1-12" Tikka. 
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http://www.box.net/shared/static/sdpjt3h36v.jpg UPDATE: Hornady 53 grain Superformance http://www.box.net/shared/static/k69inf90mx.jpg From Hornady’s website. As previously mentioned, the 53 grain Superformance load uses a brand new bullet from Hornady, the 53 grain V-MAX. http://www.box.net/shared/static/5xclri2sqo.jpg From Hornady’s website. According to Hornady, this bullet has been "optimized for the .223 Remington chamber.” The pic below shows the new 53 grain V-MAX on the left compared to the 52 grain A-MAX on the right. http://www.box.net/shared/static/co0sa2tsdk.jpg It seemed only fitting to test this new load from a .223 Remington chambered AR-15. The test vehicle was my 24” Krieger barreled AR-15 with a 1:9” twist and naturally, a .223 Remington chamber. http://www.box.net/shared/static/4zc0he19fq.jpg Shooting was conducted from my bench-rest set-up at a distance of 100 yards. A 10-shot control group using hand-loaded Sierra 55 grain BlitzKings had an extreme spread of 0.63”. http://www.box.net/shared/static/p9xftrd4un.jpg The 10-shot group of the 53 grain Superfromance load had an extreme spread of 0.70”! http://www.box.net/shared/static/gz5c0rj80f.jpg Holy moly! Is that one of the most accurate commercial loads you've tested? Darn close. Off the top of my head, the single smallest 10-shot group of factory amunition that I've fired from a semi-automatic AR-15, was with the original lot of PPU 75 grain OTM. 
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The 10-shot group of the 53 grain Superfromance load had an extreme spread of 0.70”! <––-looks for credit card while navigating towards ammo sales website. Just keep in mind, that group was fired from a .223 Remington chamber. I'm going to shoot it in my heavy-barrelled 1-12" Tikka. Sweet! |
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Quoted: Darn close. Off the top of my head, the single smallest 10-shot group of factory amunition that I've fired from a semi-automatic AR-15, was with the original lot of PPU 75 grain OTM. http://www.box.net/shared/static/7mx9gjff7b.jpg I might have to pick some up now, I wonder if 1/7 will treat it well (the rounds do look longer). My spr didn't like the PPU as much as yours did. Of course my lot was from 09 and it looked like they upped the velocity to 5.56 pressure area. I was getting a lot faster than you measured. |
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Now wait a minute. With a given twist, the faster the MV, the higher the rotational velocity. So, with a slow twist barrel, if you get the MV high enough, the bullet will develop enough rotational velocity to stabilize. You can't "overstabilize" a bullet by spinning it too fast, but it may want to fly apart from the gyroscopic forces. Accuracy may be more affected by the concussive wave coming behind the bullet as it exits the barrel, upsetting the trajectory just a fuz. Someone correct me if I'm wrong here. Look at the chart Molon posted on the previous page - even at 4000 fps, it's not even close to stable out of a 1/10 tube. OK, that makes sense. So the bullet would have to travel significantly faster than 4000fps before stabilizing in a 1:10 twist barrel. I wonder how fast exactly that would be? It's never going to happen. The rifle is going to explode long before it generates a velocity that produces a gyroscopic stability factor of 1.0. I wonder what velocity you could get loading this bullet in a rifle chambered for .22 Eargesplitten Loudenboomer? Molon, have you fired any groups at a longer range? Could it be the bullet hasn't 'gone to sleep' at a 100 yds.? |
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Could it be the bullet hasn't 'gone to sleep' at a 100 yds.? The Hornady 75 grain BTHP bullet "sleeps" quite soundly at 100 yards with a good load. The 10-shot group pictured below was fired from my Krieger barreled AR-15 at 100 yards using hand-loaded Hornady 75 grain BTHP bullets. 
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"Sleep"? That's what I though... Without getting too technical, a bullet comes out of the barrel wobbling a bit, since it's geometric center and center of gravity aren't precisely the same, and it's rotating on the former, not the latter. Over time, the bullet wobble decreases to the point that the flight becomes smooth. That's referred to as 'going to sleep'. |
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Cool Molon This will be interesting ( 223rem 75gr) Brown truck came again. midwayusa Lot 3101394 SP 5.56mm 75gr Lot 3101560 SP 223rem 53gr V-max BTW Did Hornady buy the LC brass already primmed?? I hear they are going to stake the SP in 308 |
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The velocities look great but not at that kind of accuracy level (the 75gr). Hopefully they'll put together a similar 5.56 superperformance load with a 60 something grain softpoint, something similar to Federal's LE load. The GMX is sorta like the barnes TSX load I would be happy with a hornady bonded in 223rem |
Hornady 223 Remington 75 grain Superformance
The new 223 Remington version of the 75 grain Superformance ammunition is loaded with the Hornady 75 grain BTHP bullet; the “T1”. This bullet does not have a cannelure, but a slight taper crimp at the case mouth produces a crease in the bullet jacket. Naturally, this load is charged with one of the new “highly progressive” Superformance powders. 
Hornady claims that this load obtains a velocity of 2930 fps when fired from a 24” SAAMI test barrel. I chronographed this load from an AR-15 that has a 24” stainless-steel match grade Krieger barrel with a 233 Remington chamber. A 10-shot string fired from the Krieger barrel produced a muzzle velocity of 2881 fps with a standard deviation of 14 fps. An accuracy SnapShot of this load was obtained from my AR-15 with the 24” Krieger barrel that has a 5.56 Match chamber. This barrel was chosen as the test vehicle because it shoots the Hornady 75 grain BTHP bullet extremely well. Previous testing with factory loaded ammunition from both Hornady and Black Hills ammunition topped with the Hornady T1 bullet produced 10-shot groups from 100 yards in the 1 MOA spectrum. My match grade hand-loads using the T1 bullet fired from this barrel have approached half-MOA 10-shot groups from 100 yards.
The Superfromance load was fired from the Krieger barreled AR-15 from my bench-rest set-up at 100 yards. The 10-shot group had an extreme spread of 1.878”. 
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.... I find it very curious that Hornady specs this "223" load at 10fps faster than the "5.56mm" version. By any chance did you chrono the 223 to compare it to the 5.56? I'm wondering if the T2 bullet would give any better accuracy performance at the higher velocities. |
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It looks like the .223 75gr Superformance velocity specs are from a 24inch barrel and the 5.56 75gr Superformance is from a 20inch barrel. Given the average 25fps velocity loss per inch of barrel on the AR platform, the 5.56 is about 100fps faster. Accuracy looks to be better than the 5.56 load but nothing steller. Looking forward to cannelures, T2 bullet, bonded SP, TSX and other loadings from Hornady. Now...if we can just get Molon to start marketing his handloads, I'll sign any "Disclaimers" absolving him of any liabilities.  LOL
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It looks like the .223 75gr Superformance velocity specs are from a 24inch barrel and the 5.56 75gr Superformance is from a 20inch barrel. Given the average 25fps velocity loss per inch of barrel on the AR platform, the 5.56 is about 100fps faster. Accuracy looks to be better than the 5.56 load but nothing steller. Looking forward to cannelures, T2 bullet, bonded SP, TSX and other loadings from Hornady. Now...if we can just get Molon to start marketing his handloads, I'll sign any "Disclaimers" absolving him of any liabilities. LOLI bet the reason they didnt add the cannalure was because of the poor accuracy to begin with! |
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Thanks for the SP 223rem 75gr test Still dont get the LC brass that was used in the 5.56mm load ? Since hornady makes the 75gr TAP in 5.56 BTW not much difference in FPS between 5.56 & 223rem 75gr 28fps Component availability would be my guess. I bet its been once fired like BH Blue I notice the annealing has been polished out. |
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Thanks for the SP 223rem 75gr test Still dont get the LC brass that was used in the 5.56mm load ? Since hornady makes the 75gr TAP in 5.56 BTW not much difference in FPS between 5.56 & 223rem 75gr 28fps The .223 is from a 24" the 5.56 is from a 20" barrel. The 5.56 is about 200fps faster |
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Thanks for the SP 223rem 75gr test Still dont get the LC brass that was used in the 5.56mm load ? Since hornady makes the 75gr TAP in 5.56 BTW not much difference in FPS between 5.56 & 223rem 75gr 28fps Component availability would be my guess. I bet its been once fired like BH Blue I notice the annealing has been polished out. I highly doubt that. Hornady prides itself on quality and while BH Blue Box is not "poor quality", it is not "top quality" since it uses 1x brass. Furthermore, Steve and Jason Hornady strike me as honest businessmen. They would disclose such a material item. (I've shot 3-gun matches with both of them, as well as with their employees. Hornady helps support the municipal range in Grand Island, NE.) The other issue with 1x brass is that even the best stuff shows signs it has been fired. This ties into your second point. According to a bullet press operator from Hornady that I have spoken with, every single round of Hornady ammo is hand inspected. Dented cases, crooked bullets, marred primers, and other cosmetic problems are a no go. I've seen Hornady 'factory seconds' that are given to their employees. Most of them look perfect. When people point out the 'defects' to me, I'm floored as the ammo looks damn near perfect. Annealing artifacts don't affect function but Hornady won't let 'ugly' ammo out the door. I've seen ammo that was rejected because the primer had a mark that looked like an eyelash - annealing would be unacceptable. |
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Thanks for the SP 223rem 75gr test Still dont get the LC brass that was used in the 5.56mm load ? Since hornady makes the 75gr TAP in 5.56 BTW not much difference in FPS between 5.56 & 223rem 75gr 28fps Component availability would be my guess. I bet its been once fired like BH Blue I notice the annealing has been polished out. I highly doubt that. Hornady prides itself on quality and while BH Blue Box is not "poor quality", it is not "top quality" since it uses 1x brass. Furthermore, Steve and Jason Hornady strike me as honest businessmen. They would disclose such a material item. (I've shot 3-gun matches with both of them, as well as with their employees. Hornady helps support the municipal range in Grand Island, NE.) The other issue with 1x brass is that even the best stuff shows signs it has been fired. This ties into your second point. According to a bullet press operator from Hornady that I have spoken with, every single round of Hornady ammo is hand inspected. Dented cases, crooked bullets, marred primers, and other cosmetic problems are a no go. I've seen Hornady 'factory seconds' that are given to their employees. Most of them look perfect. When people point out the 'defects' to me, I'm floored as the ammo looks damn near perfect. Annealing artifacts don't affect function but Hornady won't let 'ugly' ammo out the door. I've seen ammo that was rejected because the primer had a mark that looked like an eyelash - annealing would be unacceptable. I wonder why the primmer crimp is off (Page 4 will show you what I`m talking about) Quality 3moa match ammo 
btw never said annealing affects anything I could care less if the brass is super shinny BTW As a reloader I have once fired brass thats looks brand new! corn cobbs clean up brass pretty good |
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Thanks for the SP 223rem 75gr test Still dont get the LC brass that was used in the 5.56mm load ? Since hornady makes the 75gr TAP in 5.56 BTW not much difference in FPS between 5.56 & 223rem 75gr 28fps Component availability would be my guess. I bet its been once fired like BH Blue I notice the annealing has been polished out. I highly doubt that. Hornady prides itself on quality and while BH Blue Box is not "poor quality", it is not "top quality" since it uses 1x brass. Furthermore, Steve and Jason Hornady strike me as honest businessmen. They would disclose such a material item. (I've shot 3-gun matches with both of them, as well as with their employees. Hornady helps support the municipal range in Grand Island, NE.) The other issue with 1x brass is that even the best stuff shows signs it has been fired. This ties into your second point. According to a bullet press operator from Hornady that I have spoken with, every single round of Hornady ammo is hand inspected. Dented cases, crooked bullets, marred primers, and other cosmetic problems are a no go. I've seen Hornady 'factory seconds' that are given to their employees. Most of them look perfect. When people point out the 'defects' to me, I'm floored as the ammo looks damn near perfect. Annealing artifacts don't affect function but Hornady won't let 'ugly' ammo out the door. I've seen ammo that was rejected because the primer had a mark that looked like an eyelash - annealing would be unacceptable. I wonder why the primmer crimp is off (Page 4 will show you what I`m talking about) Quality 3moa match ammo
btw never said annealing affects anything I could care less if the brass is super shinny BTW As a reloader I have once fired brass thats looks brand new! corn cobbs clean up brass pretty good Quality is relative. 
Most of my 1x brass shows some indication it has been fired - ejector swipes, dinged case bodies, slightly distorted rims, that kinda thing. If it is military brass, crimp removal will be an indicator too. After some time in the corn cob, you're right, they're clean enough that most of it is unnoticeable unless you look really hard for it. Good point on the crimp. Like I said, I'd wager that the LC is due to a component shortage. Since they can't make enough of their own, they'll use LC. QC on the crimp is out of their control and is probably 'non-negotiable'. I think we should be glad they didn't ask Norma or Lapua for brass, otherwise we might be paying quite a bit more. And I hear you on the "quality 3moa match" thing. Hopefully this is just a teething problem. Definitely unacceptable for paper punching. |
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I do think hornady drop the ball on this load. Hornady said they will exchange it? I think I will keep it anyways I`m glad I only bought 100rds of the SP 5.56 75 & 100rds of the 223rem 53gr Im going out tomorrow and see if my rack grade M4`s like it. It would be cool to have the extra FPS in a 14.5 |
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So, do you think the T2 bullet is that much superior to the T1 for accuracy or is the 5.56 Superformance load missing the mark due to too much emphasis on speed?
As a reloader I know that the max load is often not the most accurate so I can't help but wonder if dropping the charge to get similar speeds as the TAP round would benefit the Superformance's accuracy. |
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We're losing a whole lot of accuracy for that extra 75 FPS. 
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The appeal of the 5.56 75gr. loading is enhanced fragmentation range from my 11.5" SBR––out to 100yds, I presume, and the ability to actually buy it easily.
Plus, I can stock pile some of it at the in-laws, as it's a "Varmint" round! Edited to add: After seeing the meplat photos of this round, could the bullets be seconds? |
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The appeal of the 5.56 75gr. loading is enhanced fragmentation range from my 11.5" SBR––out to 100yds, I presume, and the ability to actually buy it easily. Plus, I can stock pile some of it at the in-laws, as it's a "Varmint" round! Edited to add: After seeing the meplat photos of this round, could the bullets be seconds? I'd be surprised if any of the components were "seconds". I suspect Hornady is using new unfired primed LC brass and new T1 bullets. QC must have just not been up to snuff on this stuff. |
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The appeal of the 5.56 75gr. loading is enhanced fragmentation range from my 11.5" SBR––out to 100yds, I presume, and the ability to actually buy it easily. Plus, I can stock pile some of it at the in-laws, as it's a "Varmint" round! Edited to add: After seeing the meplat photos of this round, could the bullets be seconds? The superperformance round (left) has been loaded and pulled by Molon, which is why it looks like it does. This stuff is definitely cheaper than 5.56 TAP, and probably be easier to come by, but there is plenty of room for improvement with this particular product. 
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