why the obsession with M855 - Page 2

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - why the obsession with M855 (Page 2 of 4)

Posted: 4/29/2012 1:39:35 PM EDT

[#1]

Quoted:I should also point out I shoot a lot and am very in tuned to my weapons so my shot placement in quick combat should be very good and at 30 yards I will be within an inch of intention shooting off hand

Paper targets don't shoot back.

Posted: 4/29/2012 1:43:05 PM EDT

[#2]

Way better stuff out there....good plinking round, prefer something a better... if youre confident in it, use it....I consider my life worth buying better ammo and paying a little more,,I use my gun for SD, not for handling in the den watching Red Dawn over and over....

Posted: 4/29/2012 2:01:16 PM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:

Quoted:I should also point out I shoot a lot and am very in tuned to my weapons so my shot placement in quick combat should be very good and at 30 yards I will be within an inch of intention shooting off hand

Paper targets don't shoot back.

Absolutely 100%

But, I also know this: If I have not imbedded the ability to operate my equipment as second nature, something that requires constant refreshing, I will not be able to think my way through a a crisis. Either I do it instinctively or I die.

So, I practice constantly but then I also happen to like doing it.

Wulfmann

Posted: 4/29/2012 2:33:13 PM EDT

[#4]

Removed...Don't post pics and gifs like that in a tech forum. krp

Posted: 4/30/2012 8:37:04 AM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:

Quoted:
its quality ammo +1
that comes in stipper clips +1
,its easy to find and relatively cheep (every gun store near me has it for $150 since they match prices.) +2
its american made +1

No other ammo i can think of has all these qualities. most ammo that is just a little cheaper is not US made. thats why i like it at least. if its good enough for our troops its good enough for me shooting paper and steel at the range

EDIT by $150 i mean the 420 rd lake city ammo cans

Lately??? That's a really good price of late. Even Wal-Mart, where you can find it, went from $149.99 to $159.99, and other places have it at $180+.

Maybe I'm crazy, but I never saw that as a good price.

I agree, but I'm speaking relatively.

you've never seen that good of a price??? its 150 everywhere around me, maybe I'm lucky that i live in a city and there is plenty of gunshops but 150 is the going rate around here. some places might be 160-70 but you can sure find it for 150.

i havent bought it in about a month but still my point stands on the ammo and the draw it has to me

Posted: 4/30/2012 9:29:12 AM EDT

[#6]

I think a lot has to do with many of the ar15 variants now coming with 1:7 twist barrels instead of 1:9 twist barrels. If you have a 1:7 twist you will be shooting better groups with 62grain than 55grain.

Posted: 4/30/2012 9:30:16 AM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:
I think a lot has to do with many of the ar15 variants now coming with 1:7 twist barrels instead of 1:9 twist barrels. If you have a 1:7 twist you will be shooting better groups with 62grain than 55grain.

I don't see much difference.

Posted: 4/30/2012 9:37:09 AM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I think a lot has to do with many of the ar15 variants now coming with 1:7 twist barrels instead of 1:9 twist barrels. If you have a 1:7 twist you will be shooting better groups with 62grain than 55grain.

I don't see much difference.

I was at a local match a few weeks ago with a guy shooting a Armalite National Match. He was shooting decent with iron sights at a hundred and getting roughly 1.5" groupings on Federal 55 grain. He switched to 62grain and was sub 1". I think it was 1:8 twist which Armalite recommends 60-69grain.

Posted: 4/30/2012 9:56:46 AM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:
It shoots 1 moa out of my rifle, its cheap, matches my Acogs BDC perfectly, and hogs dont handle them very well.

M855 does NOT shoot 1 MOA out of any rifle. No way. No how. Do you actually think people will believe that?

Posted: 4/30/2012 10:00:05 AM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:

Quoted:
It shoots 1 moa out of my rifle, its cheap, matches my Acogs BDC perfectly, and hogs dont handle them very well.

I had a bushmaster predator shoot a 1" five shot group with M855 once.

Pretty sure I pulled the opposite direction of the bullet wander each time and somehow grouped them all together nicely.

I shoot 1/4 MOA groups all the time with it. Easy to do if you only fire one round.

Posted: 4/30/2012 11:10:27 AM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:

Quoted:
its quality ammo +1
that comes in stipper clips +1
,its easy to find and relatively cheep (every gun store near me has it for $150 since they match prices.) +2
its american made +1

No other ammo i can think of has all these qualities. most ammo that is just a little cheaper is not US made. thats why i like it at least. if its good enough for our troops its good enough for me shooting paper and steel at the range

EDIT by $150 i mean the 420 rd lake city ammo cans

Lately??? That's a really good price of late. Even Wal-Mart, where you can find it, went from $149.99 to $159.99, and other places have it at $180+.

Maybe I'm crazy, but I never saw that as a good price.

I agree, but I'm speaking relatively.

you've never seen that good of a price??? its 150 everywhere around me, maybe I'm lucky that i live in a city and there is plenty of gunshops but 150 is the going rate around here. some places might be 160-70 but you can sure find it for 150.

i havent bought it in about a month but still my point stands on the ammo and the draw it has to me

You can get first rate high quality PMC Xtac for $280 per thousand, but people are paying $140-150 for 420 rounds. People are paying the same price to $20 more per thousand for 160 less rounds of seconds ammo. Thats insane.

Posted: 4/30/2012 11:36:31 AM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:

Quoted:
its quality ammo +1
that comes in stipper clips +1
,its easy to find and relatively cheep (every gun store near me has it for $150 since they match prices.) +2
its american made +1

No other ammo i can think of has all these qualities. most ammo that is just a little cheaper is not US made. thats why i like it at least. if its good enough for our troops its good enough for me shooting paper and steel at the range

EDIT by $150 i mean the 420 rd lake city ammo cans

Lately??? That's a really good price of late. Even Wal-Mart, where you can find it, went from $149.99 to $159.99, and other places have it at $180+.

Maybe I'm crazy, but I never saw that as a good price.

I agree, but I'm speaking relatively.

you've never seen that good of a price??? its 150 everywhere around me, maybe I'm lucky that i live in a city and there is plenty of gunshops but 150 is the going rate around here. some places might be 160-70 but you can sure find it for 150.

i havent bought it in about a month but still my point stands on the ammo and the draw it has to me

You can get first rate high quality PMC Xtac for $280 per thousand, but people are paying $140-150 for 420 rounds. People are paying the same price to $20 more per thousand for 160 less rounds of seconds ammo. Thats insane.

Any links to this ammo deal?

Posted: 4/30/2012 11:39:44 AM EDT

[#13]

Sorry I was talking about thats how much first rate M855 has been for the past 3 years, which is why the $140-150 a can was NEVER a good price. I cannot find it instock anywhere.

But I just say XM193 for $380 per can of 820rds, I guess the sharp price increases have begun

Posted: 4/30/2012 12:04:16 PM EDT

[#14]

Well, I'm confused between the two rounds (not the costs) and their barrel requirements..
On one side we have the original 55gr M193 and on the other M885 at 62gr.
The M193 ran in 1:12 barrel and now the M885 at 1:7 or 1:9 twists
There has been a lot of controversy on using 62g in a 1:12 barrel (I believe 65g is the max?).
Do you shoot M193 in your 1:7 barrels - is it OK? Or does it spin off?
Do you shoot M885 in your 1:12 barrels – is it OK?
Or do you segregate your ammo per barrel type (assuming you have different barrel twists)?

Posted: 4/30/2012 2:40:25 PM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:
Well, I'm confused between the two rounds (not the costs) and their barrel requirements..
On one side we have the original 55gr M193 and on the other M885 at 62gr.
The M193 ran in 1:12 barrel and now the M885 at 1:7 or 1:9 twists
There has been a lot of controversy on using 62g in a 1:12 barrel (I believe 65g is the max?).
Do you shoot M193 in your 1:7 barrels - is it OK? Or does it spin off?
Do you shoot M885 in your 1:12 barrels – is it OK?
Or do you segregate your ammo per barrel type (assuming you have different barrel twists)?

90% of the guys here have a twist rate of 1/ 9 1/8 1/7
M193/M855 is fine with the above twist rates.

The 1-12 twist can / will key hole the long SS109 bullet

Posted: 4/30/2012 5:33:18 PM EDT

[#16]

I look at it like this.......get what you can afford, I sure as hell dont want to be shot with m855.....come to think of it I dont want to be shot by ANY size caliber. Is M855 the greatest? Far from it.......but it sure as hell will still kill you dead, im sure a round to your noggin is not going to buff out.

Posted: 4/30/2012 5:35:35 PM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:
I think a lot has to do with many of the ar15 variants now coming with 1:7 twist barrels instead of 1:9 twist barrels. If you have a 1:7 twist you will be shooting better groups with 62grain than 55grain.

The SS109 bullet in M855 ammo was designed to stabilize with a 1/9 twist barrel.
The reason for the 1/7 was the M856 tracer ammo that required the faster twist not M855

The difference above 69gr where 1/8 and/or 1/7 stabilizes heavier bullets and 1/8 while fine with 77gr 80 gr (single load too long for magazine) does better with 1/7 so unless you intend on using the 75gr and up 1/9 is fine

Wulfmann

Posted: 4/30/2012 5:35:58 PM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:
Well, I'm confused between the two rounds (not the costs) and their barrel requirements..
On one side we have the original 55gr M193 and on the other M885 at 62gr.
The M193 ran in 1:12 barrel and now the M885 at 1:7 or 1:9 twists
There has been a lot of controversy on using 62g in a 1:12 barrel (I believe 65g is the max?).
Do you shoot M193 in your 1:7 barrels - is it OK? Or does it spin off?
Do you shoot M885 in your 1:12 barrels – is it OK?
Or do you segregate your ammo per barrel type (assuming you have different barrel twists)?

55 gr and up totally fine in 1/7.

M855 out of a 1/12 I think is to fast of a twist rate, your probably going to just see alot of keyholing

Posted: 4/30/2012 7:29:06 PM EDT

[#19]

American made. either 193 or 855 from L.C., great for reloading. let's be real here, 5.56 needs shot placement period, unless you pull a hat trick into a chest, as stated before, you can't buff out an 855 to the noggin. just sayin.
Tim.

Posted: 4/30/2012 7:35:54 PM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:

Quoted:
its quality ammo +1
that comes in stipper clips +1
,its easy to find and relatively cheep (every gun store near me has it for $150 since they match prices.) +2
its american made +1

No other ammo i can think of has all these qualities. most ammo that is just a little cheaper is not US made. thats why i like it at least. if its good enough for our troops its good enough for me shooting paper and steel at the range

EDIT by $150 i mean the 420 rd lake city ammo cans

Lately??? That's a really good price of late. Even Wal-Mart, where you can find it, went from $149.99 to $159.99, and other places have it at $180+.

Maybe I'm crazy, but I never saw that as a good price.

I agree, but I'm speaking relatively.

you've never seen that good of a price??? its 150 everywhere around me, maybe I'm lucky that i live in a city and there is plenty of gunshops but 150 is the going rate around here. some places might be 160-70 but you can sure find it for 150.

i havent bought it in about a month but still my point stands on the ammo and the draw it has to me

You can get first rate high quality PMC Xtac for $280 per thousand, but people are paying $140-150 for 420 rounds. People are paying the same price to $20 more per thousand for 160 less rounds of seconds ammo. Thats insane.

not to hate on pmc lovers , im sure its nice ammo, but i prefer US made ammo. i think pmc is Korean. just a preference. id rather pay extra for us made, on anything not just ammo. please correct me if im wrong by the way

Posted: 4/30/2012 9:36:22 PM EDT

[#21]

I've always bounced around between M855 variants and M193. I've found that M193 seems to flash a bit more than M855 at night (when your shooting explosive targets at night its not like it really matters). I have noticed that Tula 55 gr shoots very similarly to M855 out of MY rifle. M193 on the other hand suffers less drop.

M193 seems to be harder to find to me in less than 1000 rd quantities. M193 will run me $7.99/box locally. The last 420 round box I purchased ran me $160 after shipping. So for what it's worth, I've been finding M855 cheaper.

Recently I got into reloading…I've been playing with 55 gr FMJ BT (12¢ per bullet) out of LC cases that are matching if not exceeding M193 ballistics. However, getting those in surplus quantities is difficult since most suppliers are completely out of stock on M193 in smaller bulk quantities (i.e. I don't have the money to buy 5000 bullets) but SS109 bullets are running about 8-9¢ per bullet. My conclusion, for training, might as well use M855 since it is readily available compared to other supplies.

Posted: 4/30/2012 10:16:17 PM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:

Quoted:
its quality ammo +1
that comes in stipper clips +1
,its easy to find and relatively cheep (every gun store near me has it for $150 since they match prices.) +2
its american made +1

No other ammo i can think of has all these qualities. most ammo that is just a little cheaper is not US made. thats why i like it at least. if its good enough for our troops its good enough for me shooting paper and steel at the range

EDIT by $150 i mean the 420 rd lake city ammo cans

Lately??? That's a really good price of late. Even Wal-Mart, where you can find it, went from $149.99 to $159.99, and other places have it at $180+.

Maybe I'm crazy, but I never saw that as a good price.

I agree, but I'm speaking relatively.

you've never seen that good of a price??? its 150 everywhere around me, maybe I'm lucky that i live in a city and there is plenty of gunshops but 150 is the going rate around here. some places might be 160-70 but you can sure find it for 150.

i havent bought it in about a month but still my point stands on the ammo and the draw it has to me

You can get first rate high quality PMC Xtac for $280 per thousand, but people are paying $140-150 for 420 rounds. People are paying the same price to $20 more per thousand for 160 less rounds of seconds ammo. Thats insane.

not to hate on pmc lovers , im sure its nice ammo, but i prefer US made ammo. i think pmc is Korean. just a preference. id rather pay extra for us made, on anything not just ammo. please correct me if im wrong by the way

The PMC stuff is as good if not better ammo. If Federal wants my money for blasting ammo, they need to come up with a more competitive price. I'm sure they're capable. I'm through about 1400rnds of the XTAC, all flawless, haven't even seen a visual blemish.

Posted: 5/1/2012 1:43:32 AM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Well, I'm confused between the two rounds (not the costs) and their barrel requirements..
On one side we have the original 55gr M193 and on the other M885 at 62gr.
The M193 ran in 1:12 barrel and now the M885 at 1:7 or 1:9 twists
There has been a lot of controversy on using 62g in a 1:12 barrel (I believe 65g is the max?).
Do you shoot M193 in your 1:7 barrels - is it OK? Or does it spin off?
Do you shoot M885 in your 1:12 barrels – is it OK?
Or do you segregate your ammo per barrel type (assuming you have different barrel twists)?

55 gr and up totally fine in 1/7.

M855 out of a 1/12 I think is to fast of a twist rate, your probably going to just see alot of keyholing

Isn't 1/7 1/8 1/9 faster than 1/12????????

1 complete rotation in 12 inches vs 1 complete rotation in 7 inches.

Posted: 5/1/2012 4:17:38 AM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:

Quoted:
its quality ammo +1
that comes in stipper clips +1
,its easy to find and relatively cheep (every gun store near me has it for $150 since they match prices.) +2
its american made +1

No other ammo i can think of has all these qualities. most ammo that is just a little cheaper is not US made. thats why i like it at least. if its good enough for our troops its good enough for me shooting paper and steel at the range

EDIT by $150 i mean the 420 rd lake city ammo cans

Lately??? That's a really good price of late. Even Wal-Mart, where you can find it, went from $149.99 to $159.99, and other places have it at $180+.

Maybe I'm crazy, but I never saw that as a good price.

I agree, but I'm speaking relatively.

you've never seen that good of a price??? its 150 everywhere around me, maybe I'm lucky that i live in a city and there is plenty of gunshops but 150 is the going rate around here. some places might be 160-70 but you can sure find it for 150.

i havent bought it in about a month but still my point stands on the ammo and the draw it has to me

You can get first rate high quality PMC Xtac for $280 per thousand, but people are paying $140-150 for 420 rounds. People are paying the same price to $20 more per thousand for 160 less rounds of seconds ammo. Thats insane.

not to hate on pmc lovers , im sure its nice ammo, but i prefer US made ammo. i think pmc is Korean. just a preference. id rather pay extra for us made, on anything not just ammo. please correct me if im wrong by the way

The PMC stuff is as good if not better ammo. If Federal wants my money for blasting ammo, they need to come up with a more competitive price. I'm sure they're capable. I'm through about 1400rnds of the XTAC, all flawless, haven't even seen a visual blemish.

i didnt say it was bad, i would just rather buy an american product than a korean one. id rather have my extra money go to american wages reguardless of what i buy.

Posted: 5/1/2012 5:24:16 AM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:
not to hate on pmc lovers , im sure its nice ammo, but i prefer US made ammo. i think pmc is Korean. just a preference. id rather pay extra for us made, on anything not just ammo. please correct me if im wrong by the way

You are wrong; consider yourself corrected

––––––––––––––––

PMC (Korean) like IMI (Israeli) is first run ammo made for us or over run not rejects.

All US military ammo are rejected lots and are therefore seconds.

Now, most of the US ammo is fine but there have been a few lots that had more than a few problems (discussed here)

If you ever wondered why US ammo is not M193 and M855 but has another designation like XM855 now you know why:
Although

That was why some was labeled "Not for duty use" so LE would not deploy it on the streets
It intended for training only when bought by LE

Wulfmann

Posted: 5/1/2012 5:27:38 AM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:

Quoted:
not to hate on pmc lovers , im sure its nice ammo, but i prefer US made ammo. i think pmc is Korean. just a preference. id rather pay extra for us made, on anything not just ammo. please correct me if im wrong by the way

You are wrong; consider yourself corrected

––––––––––––––––

PMC (Korean) like IMI (Israeli) is first run ammo made for us or over run not rejects.

All US military ammo are rejected lots and are therefore seconds.

Now, most of the US ammo is fine but there have been a few lots that had more than a few problems (discussed here)

If you ever wondered why US ammo is not M193 and M855 but has another designation like XM855 now you know why:
Although

That was why some was labeled "Not for duty use" so LE would not deploy it on the streets
It intended for training only when bought by LE

Wulfmann

i stand corrected however i still like m855

Posted: 5/1/2012 8:11:50 AM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Well, I'm confused between the two rounds (not the costs) and their barrel requirements..
On one side we have the original 55gr M193 and on the other M885 at 62gr.
The M193 ran in 1:12 barrel and now the M885 at 1:7 or 1:9 twists
There has been a lot of controversy on using 62g in a 1:12 barrel (I believe 65g is the max?).
Do you shoot M193 in your 1:7 barrels - is it OK? Or does it spin off?
Do you shoot M885 in your 1:12 barrels – is it OK?
Or do you segregate your ammo per barrel type (assuming you have different barrel twists)?

55 gr and up totally fine in 1/7.

M855 out of a 1/12 I think is to fast slow of a twist rate, your probably going to just see alot of keyholing

FIFY

Unless you meant to say M855 needs a faster twist rate than 1/12.

Both shoot fine in my 1/7 barrels.

Posted: 5/1/2012 8:47:05 AM EDT

[#28]

First box I ever shot out of my AR was the PMC variety. Never had an issue with it. The worst issue I ever had ammo wise was a piece of Remington brass that got stuck in the chamber on me and took a disassembly to get free.

Question, does PMC have a primer crimp on it?

Posted: 5/1/2012 9:45:47 AM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:

Question, does PMC have a primer crimp on it?

Yes and no.

All of the PSD (head stamp for the X-Tac stuff) has the military crimp and it is a tough one

Some of the PMC HS stuff is crimped but most is not. I do not know why some is and some isn't but I have loaded up about 2K this year so far and about 10% had crimps

Wulfmann

Posted: 5/1/2012 3:52:34 PM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Well, I'm confused between the two rounds (not the costs) and their barrel requirements..
On one side we have the original 55gr M193 and on the other M885 at 62gr.
The M193 ran in 1:12 barrel and now the M885 at 1:7 or 1:9 twists
There has been a lot of controversy on using 62g in a 1:12 barrel (I believe 65g is the max?).
Do you shoot M193 in your 1:7 barrels - is it OK? Or does it spin off?
Do you shoot M885 in your 1:12 barrels – is it OK?
Or do you segregate your ammo per barrel type (assuming you have different barrel twists)?

55 gr and up totally fine in 1/7.

M855 out of a 1/12 I think is to fast of a twist rate, your probably going to just see alot of keyholing

Isn't 1/7 1/8 1/9 faster than 1/12????????

1 complete rotation in 12 inches vs 1 complete rotation in 7 inches.

Yes

he made a typo

Posted: 5/1/2012 3:53:55 PM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Better yet he AGREES

BINGO!! Give that man a prize! All I was stating was I agree.....a great barrier blind round is ....well....great.

LOL

sorry getting slower with age

Posted: 5/1/2012 3:55:01 PM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Personally I use a combination for SD with one M855 IMI followed by one Privi 75gr match HPBT the idea being one barrier defeating round followed by a flesh eater.

I practice two round burst with my carbines using this cocktail..

To each his own

Wulfmann

i thought 855 was defeated by barriers the same way 193 was?

correct !! common barriers

Posted: 5/1/2012 6:05:40 PM EDT

[#33]

Quoted:
i stand corrected however i still like m855

I am guessing you have never shot US made M855.

By that I mean you shoot XM855 the military rejected ammo. Is that right???

When you shoot Israeli (IMI) you shoot first run (well over run first run) not seconds

US made Winchester Ranger M855 is first run and excellent but pricey for M855

Wulfmann

Posted: 5/1/2012 6:55:31 PM EDT

[#34]

It's not bad ammo. Not going to find much cheaper that's made in America. I've been shooting 4-5" groups with a Trijicon ACOG at 100 yards. Stripper clips rock. I've had ZERO failures with it. Lots of pros, not so many cons. It's not match but how often do you need match ammo to just all day?

Posted: 5/3/2012 6:01:11 AM EDT

[#35]

Quoted:
its quality ammo +1
that comes in stipper clips +1
,its easy to find and relatively cheep (every gun store near me has it for $150 since they match prices.) +2
its american made +1

No other ammo i can think of has all these qualities. most ammo that is just a little cheaper is not US made. thats why i like it at least. if its good enough for our troops its good enough for me shooting paper and steel at the range

EDIT by $150 i mean the 420 rd lake city ammo cans

This for me. Other 5.56/.223 needs to start coming packed on stripper clips...

...oh wait, I suppose I should first ask for 5.56/.223 being available for sale in the first place, I can't find it for shit these days.

Posted: 5/3/2012 6:08:39 AM EDT

[#36]

Originally Posted By ––bullseye––:

Quoted:

Originally Posted By ––bullseye––:

Quoted:
I read an article in the "Book of the AR15" magazine that was talking about the new solid copper m855. IIRC, they said that it wears out barrels twice as fast. Not sure if the same goes for the standard steel core m855, but I'll just stick with M193. I'm not sure I necessarily believe the claims in the article, but 193 is cheaper, runs flawlessly in my AR, and my sights are zeroed in with it. I can find no reason to run the green tips, and would rather not annihilate my barrel.

No BS There. He is talking about M855A1. You're the one who needs a fact check.

OK, I see that M855A1 pressures have been increased, which is what causes the accelerated wear. The way I read the post seemed to be implying that the copper construction led to increased wear, which is what had me

.

Just off the top of my head I would guess that there is a lot more force needed to obturate a thicker band of copper or a total copper round. The soft lead cores are much more ductile.

Posted: 5/3/2012 9:30:10 AM EDT

[#37]

Quoted:

Quoted:
its quality ammo +1
that comes in stipper clips +1
,its easy to find and relatively cheep (every gun store near me has it for $150 since they match prices.) +2
its american made +1

No other ammo i can think of has all these qualities. most ammo that is just a little cheaper is not US made. thats why i like it at least. if its good enough for our troops its good enough for me shooting paper and steel at the range

EDIT by $150 i mean the 420 rd lake city ammo cans

This for me. Other 5.56/.223 needs to start coming packed on stripper clips...

...oh wait, I suppose I should first ask for 5.56/.223 being available for sale in the first place, I can't find it for shit these days.

You almost always have to order it from somewhere. Normally what I do is when I have 100 rounds or so, I go a head and take it all out of the box and spend 10 minutes of my time putting it on strippers. Helps keep it all organized as well as cuts down magazine charging time (I've found its quicker to load on strippers, load into magazines than it is to just load loose rounds into magazines.

Posted: 5/3/2012 10:00:44 AM EDT

[#38]

day late and a $ short, but when you bond with something, its hard to get used to something else.

also, I try not to buy foriegn ammo. US Made only. call me crazy, but I dont trust the other shit. For all we know its contracted out to china and shipped to whatever country is claiming it and then to us.

Try to stick with Lake City and other US ammos as much as i can.

Posted: 5/3/2012 10:00:52 AM EDT

[#39]

Quoted:

Originally Posted By ––bullseye––:

Quoted:

Originally Posted By ––bullseye––:

Quoted:
I read an article in the "Book of the AR15" magazine that was talking about the new solid copper m855. IIRC, they said that it wears out barrels twice as fast. Not sure if the same goes for the standard steel core m855, but I'll just stick with M193. I'm not sure I necessarily believe the claims in the article, but 193 is cheaper, runs flawlessly in my AR, and my sights are zeroed in with it. I can find no reason to run the green tips, and would rather not annihilate my barrel.

No BS There. He is talking about M855A1. You're the one who needs a fact check.

OK, I see that M855A1 pressures have been increased, which is what causes the accelerated wear. The way I read the post seemed to be implying that the copper construction led to increased wear, which is what had me

.

Just off the top of my head I would guess that there is a lot more force needed to obturate a thicker band of copper or a total copper round. The soft lead cores are much more ductile.

I believe they upped the velocity by 100+fps too.

Posted: 5/3/2012 11:03:54 AM EDT

[#40]

Quoted:
US Made only. call me crazy, but I dont trust the other shit.

If you insist; You're crazy

Well, one would have to be crazy to think the Israelis would have China make their ammo and with US made ammo offered to us civilians military rejects and IMI not I am not sure how logical your argument is but respect your right to have and hold on to it.

But, I for one, am happy with all the people who buy the US reject stuff.
It leaves more of the better stuff for those of us that do not call ourselves crazy for a good reason

Wulfmann

Posted: 5/3/2012 11:05:24 AM EDT

[#41]

I would rather buy chinese ammo, then buy overpriced lake city, PMC, and Remington .223

Posted: 5/3/2012 11:58:43 AM EDT

[#42]

Speaking of LC 420 cans of M855:

Wideners got in some and it was gone so fast i missed it ever showing inventory checking from one hour to the next.

Now you see it, now you don't, well, not even see it really

Wulfmann

Posted: 5/3/2012 1:52:14 PM EDT

[#43]

Quoted:

Quoted:
not to hate on pmc lovers , im sure its nice ammo, but i prefer US made ammo. i think pmc is Korean. just a preference. id rather pay extra for us made, on anything not just ammo. please correct me if im wrong by the way

You are wrong; consider yourself corrected

––––––––––––––––

PMC (Korean) like IMI (Israeli) is first run ammo made for us or over run not rejects.

All US military ammo are rejected lots and are therefore seconds.

Now, most of the US ammo is fine but there have been a few lots that had more than a few problems (discussed here)

If you ever wondered why US ammo is not M193 and M855 but has another designation like XM855 now you know why:
Although

That was why some was labeled "Not for duty use" so LE would not deploy it on the streets
It intended for training only when bought by LE

Wulfmann

Id like some more insight on this, I was under the impression that both first run and 2nd run (or rejected ammo, which was marked "not for duty use") was available to the public.

I have seen a few vendors stating in the description "this is first run ammo..etc etc"

Example this is from Palmetto

"This Ammunition has been loaded and passed true NATO specifications. This is first run ammo that met the US Military’s strict quality assurance standards and specifications."

"This ammunition has passed Military Specification Testing and is NOT Quality Control Rejected Ammunition. This ammunition does not carry the lable "NOT FOR DUTY USE""

A few other places say the same thing.

Either you are wrong Wolfman or a lot of vendors are trying to pull a fast one and if that is indeed the case, I think they should be called out on it.

Posted: 5/3/2012 1:54:56 PM EDT

[#44]

The US military does buy loose pack training ammo (no dunnage or weather protection) for training purposes only, it is marked for training only or not combat.

Posted: 5/3/2012 2:46:17 PM EDT

[#45]

I always thought the not for duty use labels were more or less for public safety being that FMJ has the ability to go through several interior and exterior walls and still have lethal power. Duty use tends to be controlled expansion so you don't have wild bullets which can be hazardous to the public.

Posted: 5/3/2012 3:57:55 PM EDT

[#46]

Quoted:
I always thought the not for duty use labels were more or less for public safety being that FMJ has the ability to go through several interior and exterior walls and still have lethal power. Duty use tends to be controlled expansion so you don't have wild bullets which can be hazardous to the public.

I would assume if it was marked "not for duty use" it would be 2nd run / rejected ammo.

Id like to get to the bottom of this, Seems like a lot of misinformation floating around.

*edit*

Here is info taken directly from federal

XM193 product is first run, first quality product manufactured at Lake City Army Ammunition Plant for Federal Cartridge and is made to Federal specifications typical for commercial ammunition.

• All XM193 product is the same regardless of the sku or part number. (ie. XM193C is the same as XM193F, XM193CBP and etc…) The only difference is the package configuration.

http://www.federalpremium.com/resources/xm193.aspx

I would assume the same would apply to XM855. Id also assume the X would not mean 2nd or rejected ammo as wolf man said earlier. I could see it meaning that it was for public distribution.

The question I see that sticks out is "specifications typical for commercial ammunition." Commercial meaning for the open market, it may meet Nato specs, but is it the same stuff the military is getting? Are they made with the same machines, in the same plant..etc? They may do a run to meet a military contract, then when that is filled, make some for the commercial market and just give it the X designation. Or are they two completely different entity s?

I could be wrong tho, and I would love some detailed information about this, If it is indeed all 2nd/rejected ammo. Now would be a good time to clear out my stash and replace it with some IMI or PMC X-tac.

Posted: 5/3/2012 4:20:10 PM EDT

[#47]

Quoted:
I would rather buy chinese ammo, then buy overpriced lake city, PMC, and Remington .223

QFT

Posted: 5/3/2012 4:21:54 PM EDT

[#48]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I would rather buy chinese ammo, then buy overpriced lake city, PMC, and Remington .223

QFT

I forgot to say PMC Bronze. The X-Tac is worth it.

Posted: 5/3/2012 6:19:32 PM EDT

[#49]

According the SGA they have removed the "Not for Duty use" and raised the price and it is the same ammo as before.
He has every reason to go along with the "first run" labeling but does not do so.

I only go by what I have read and that being the government owns all military ammo production and only rejected lots are sold to the civilian market.

Most shoots no different than first run ammo anyway except a couple noted batches that had problems discussed here in the past.

Please, use US made ammo, buy only US made ammo.
Please ignore Molon's test ranking the IMI M855 the most accurate of all military ammo tested

Too many people buy the IMI and it would really nice if everyone avoided it and forced the price down for me

Wulfmann

Posted: 5/3/2012 6:47:06 PM EDT

[#50]

Quoted:
According the SGA they have removed the "Not for Duty use" and raised the price and it is the same ammo as before.
He has every reason to go along with the "first run" labeling but does not do so.

I only go by what I have read and that being the government owns all military ammo production and only rejected lots are sold to the civilian market.

Most shoots no different than first run ammo anyway except a couple noted batches that had problems discussed here in the past.

Please, use US made ammo, buy only US made ammo.
Please ignore Molon's test ranking the IMI M855 the most accurate of all military ammo tested

Too many people buy the IMI and it would really nice if everyone avoided it and forced the price down for me

Wulfmann

Where have you seen that the military owns production of the m855 round for federal? They may have a contract and own the rights to the round, but I highly doubt they actually own the plant making it. I don't see why they would only sell rejected lots to the public.

It may shoot the same and not have any noticeable difference. But its still nice to know, if indeed it is "rejected" ammo or not.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - why the obsession with M855 (Page 2 of 4)

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