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- - Marksman's Challenge - - (Page 6 of 9)
Did you do 4 mag changes in the times you posted? Island Lake only allows 6 in the mag at a time....Or is that a rule they don't really enforce? Just went shooting there today. Damn was it raining there....pretty bad at times. DW |
They stick to the rule, so yup, had to do mag changes. |
That's a bummer. I hate that 6 round rule. Lots of unnecessary mag changes when shooting there. Very nice range though. DW |
X2 |
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Place holder for my pics to be uploaded later in the week when I get back to my digital camera... This is an excellent thread. It is a great training tool in conjunction with the 25yard targets and a Ceiner .22LR kit. |
"There comes a time when every man feels the urge to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and start slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
Speak softly and carry a big stick - Teddy Roosevelt
Speak softly and carry a big stick - Teddy Roosevelt
So where's those pics? 
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I'll be posting more downloadable targets as my schedule allows. |
A little off topic I just wanted to comment that I just got back from the qual range the other week. I figured I was a shoe in for another expert badge as it would have been my 7th consecutive award. Last year I fired range high with a score of 242 (out of the 250 point scale). This year (with the same rifle) I managed to just squeeze by with a 207! Thats what happens when you get cocky gents. You figure you already know everything and your better than good. Luckily for me rifle score doesnt help (or hurt) toward promotion to Staff Sgt so it only hurt my pride. Oh well I guess I'll just have to fix myself next year when I can qual again. In the mean time I get to walk around with an expert pistol badge and a "pizza box" marksman rifle badge. 
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Off topic also, but your post reminds me of a story my father used to tell me. He was a marksmanship DI for the National Guard. He said he lost track of how many soldiers he coached to qualify as Expert, yet he only usually qualified as Sharpshooter himself for rifle.  |
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Well, I'm just glad to see that there are still some damn good marksmen around. I've been using some of Fred's targets. You know, the guy that advertises in Shotgun News. Sometimes I use the M-1, sometimes the K98, sometimes the M44 Mosin, and lots of times the AR and AK's. Longest range we have is 200yrds, so shooting at 25 is good practice. I also play around with 3" squares of cardboard placed randomly on the target butts. No bullseye, just a brown piece of cardboard. Fire 2 rounds at one , then go to another, etc. That way I'm not getting trained to look for bullseyes on the bad guys. Since they're also at different heights, you actually have to move your firearm to hit them. Most of my shooting is offhand as it is too easy to hit them while using the bench. |
Here's a little off-topic post, but it's related to Targethunter's post. I recently had the opportunity to fire a full-auto Heckler & Koch MP5-SD. (This is the lightest recoiling center-fire shoulder weapon that I have ever fired. The quietest, too!) I used full-sized IALEFI-Q targets placed at a distance of 10 yards. (The orange dot placed on the target is 1" in diameter.) The first target pictured below shows 20 shots fired from off-hand postition in semi-automatic mode as fast as I could acquire a sight picture and squeeze off the individual rounds.  The second target pictured also has 20 shots on it, but these were fired in full-auto mode in controlled 2 and 3 shot bursts from an off-hand "combat stance." The grouping of rounds labeled #1 are the first shots from each burst. The second "grouping" of rounds is formed from the 2nd and 3rd shots of each burst.  The second grouping of rounds is approximately 3.4" higher than the first, at the distance of only 10 yards. This would equate to approximately 8.5" high at a distance of 25 yards!  |
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 .They're actually a very similar exercise to the one outlined in this thread.Thanks for getting this thread up and running, and for fending off those tiresome souls who maintain that anything shot at under 500, or 1000, or a ga-zillion yards is a wasted shot. As has been noted, not everybody is lucky enough to have access to a full-distance (400yds+) range. Furthermore, if you try to shoot a 6moa target at 500yds before you can hit a 6moa target (like these) at reduced ranges, you're likely to encounter a lot of unneeded frustration. Plus, shooting like this is an outstanding way to get kids and new (adult) shooters involved. A .22 at 25 yds ( or meters) and a brick of 500rds will help win beau coup hearts & minds to the RKBA, something that's worth more than its weight in gold with an election year looming. And, now that I've run off at the mouth sufficiently, I'm downloading these targets and will get a few out to the range as soon as possible. |
Don't forget to post pics of your results! |
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Molon, Your scaled targets at different distances got me thinking about the .22LR conversions for the AR. Does anyone have any ballistics charts that compare the arc of .22LR with .223? I was wondering at what range these rounds 'cross-over' - I'm thinking that'd be a good range to shoot without having to re-zero the weapon when using a Ceiner conversion kit. I figure I can rescale existing targets to whatever that range is. I know there will be ballistic differences depending on which rounds are used (i.e. standard vs. high velocity on the .22LR side or 55gr vs 62 or 77 gr on the .223 side), but an approximate distance would be a good starting point. I'm zeroed at 50 yards with 55gr .223 right now. Great thread. |
Oh but do some running first, you know to get the old heart rate up. 
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The no mag change is part of table 1 meant to emphasize marksmanship and not combat marksmanship, tables 2-4 are to train to that. Because of being in a loop sling, shooters do a strong side rapid reload and tap of the assist, something they try to not have them do in Tables 2-4. |
Thanks for your input. |
All hail Jeanne Assam!
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For those of you who haven't already read it, there is a great article in the February 2008 edition of S.W.A.T. magazine entitled, "The Appleseed Project." Here are some quotes from the article that seem particularly relevant to this thread. "Appleseed uses scaled-down targets designed to present the shooter, at 25 yards, with the equivalent sight picture of silhouette targets at 100, 200, 300 and 400 yards, respectively. You may scoff at the idea of shooting such reduced-size targets at 25 yards, but if your rifle is not properly sighted in, or if your fundamental shooting skills are not up to speed, you will be mighty embarrassed by that seemingly humble target! . . . the basics of accurately shooting a rifle can all be taught at 25 yards. "Lest you think that you are above this course because it is 'basic,' remember it is the basics that win fights. If your basic skills are not sound, then all the high-speed, low-drag advanced training in the world is not going to save your hide." |
All hail Jeanne Assam!
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I will post in two days |
The 2nd Amendment is not about rights. It is about CAPABILITY. It is about ensuring the capability to respond to violence, and oppression. Not with 1 round, or 10, but with the full force of indignant violence deserved at a breach of our peace.
Actually, at the range I am a member at... we are forbidden from using our .223/5.56 on the 25 yard range. On the 50 yard range , we are good to go. If you come up with 50 yd targets or 100 yd targets, it would help some of us like me. |
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50 yard targets  |
All hail Jeanne Assam!
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Fired at 82 (an inch or 2 over 25m) feet using my Sabre Defence 20" A2 sights and Govt. profile barrel, chrome lined, 1/9 twist barrel. Other mods include PRI gas-buster and Ergo grip along with a "tactical" sling. I timed it with the "stopwatch" feature on my cell. The Q3131 group, I forgot to stop it, but it couldn't have been longer than 1:30 at the LONGEST. I used the 25m E2 target and measured 82' with a surveryor wheel. I fired from the seated position also utilizing my sling. I just looped it around my arm for tension. I counted "hits" as anything that broke black.  |
Nice work, especially since you timed your strings of fire! |
All hail Jeanne Assam!
TY, I suck with directions, but I try! |
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NOT A COOK After reading more about the Appleseed Project and seeing what a commendable job they are doing of promoting basic marksmanship skills, I decided to show some support for the project and send some of my disposable income their way. In return, they sent me some great reading material along with a stack of qualification targets. While the article about the Appleseed Project in Swat magazine stated that shooting was done at 25 yards, the Appleseed targets show that they are scaled for 25 meters. The Appleseed literature states "there's not much difference" between the two and they "are used interchangeably." While any rifle is welcome at the Appleseed shoots, their emphasis is on military type rifles with iron sights using issue slings and "ball" ammunition. In the spirit of the Appleseed Project, I decided to give their 25 meter off-hand qualification target a try using a Colt AR-15 A2 rifle with a Colt M16A2 government profile barrel. Shooting off-hand from 25 yards using a GI issue hasty sling and 55 grain ball ammo I managed to score 50/50 points. You can order the Appleseed qualification targets to try for yourself from Fred's. 
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All hail Jeanne Assam!
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I've stumbled across this site a couple times, this was the thread it took for me to join. I've been using the reduced targets for a while now. Primarily, the 25 meter zero target. Printed off a pdf. My set up right now is 10/22 with tech sights. Sometimes I minimize by 50 %, or put it at the 50 meter line to practice for my M1A I used to use the 25 meter scaled target alternate course/ALT C target. My supply & resource dried up. I used the record firing scorecard, DA 5790-R.I had 8 or so laminated. I'd use alcohol pens to keep score. I have the old, prone supported/prone unsupported cards and the new ones prone supported/prone unsupported/kneeling. The prone supported, is used in place of the foxhole. That brings me to my next point, does anyone have a resource for these target(ALT C) to be bought in bulk ? The cheapest I could find them was 41 cent per. I bought several to duplicate, I've been in contact with a local printer. Still cost prohibitive unless there is a large order. I was also considering printing a scaled designated marksman target. No such an animal exists. I would use the dmr scorecard and design the target to be a scaled down dmr record fire. Also considering an NRA High Power scaled target and a USMC qualification scaled target. Basically they would would be on a 17x24 sheet with all targets represented. Anyone in the house work at a printing press ? I have some pdf's, with scorecards for rifle qual & dmr and downrange feedback section out of FM 23-9. Anyone interested, I could send them via e-mail. Molon, great thread and you have mail. |
- - Marksman's Challenge - - (Page 6 of 9)
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