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Posted: 2/10/2019 2:21:59 PM EDT
Let's just talk "hypothetically".
"Hypothetically", if: A company has been working the past few years developing a metal magazine for the LWRC SIX8 and other potential receiver sets to be made using said magazine, and they have the full support of LWRC, so that concern is out of the way. Let's say they have finally successfully had said magazine designed by large magazine manufacturers and they have CAD's for 10, 20 and 30 round capacities on hand. Let's say they designed two versions - one for the 6.8SPC case body, and one for the 6.5 Grendel case body. Let's say this company brought a functional 3D printed model of this magazine with them to the 2019 SHOT show, met with some very large Ammunition and Firearms manufacturers, showed it to them, and all were supportive. Let's say they have production bids and schedules from a couple large, well known magazine manufacturers. Let's say that there are additional compatible receiver set manufacturers lined up and ready to produce receiver sets that are compatible with the new metal magazine, as well as the original Magpul SIX8 Pmag. Let's say that these additional receiver set manufacturers have sets priced at $350 or less. Let's say one company already released their version of the compatible receiver sets and sold out in a couple weeks. Let's say that the nominal Cartridge Overall Length capability of the magazines is 2.390", and that the published COAL will most likely be 2.380" to account for manufacture anomalies. Let's say that said company has developed a new line of cartridges designed to take full advantage of the new COAL, and has dropped hints sporadically over time eluding to such. Let's say that many other existing cartridges like the 6.8SPC, the 224 Valkyrie, 22 Nosler, and 6.5 Grendel will all be able to take advantage of the increased COAL in some capacity (Load Long), without having to "window" mags, providing full mag capacity at the long lengths. Let's say that if one (the large ammunition companies and individuals) were so inclined, using the parameters these magazines would provide by design, that a cartridge with 40 grains H2O case capacity running at 55k PSI MAP would beat current 6.8SPCII and 6.5 Grendel numbers by ~200 fps could easily be designed. Let's say said company owns the magazine designs, that they are US Patent Pending, dozens of NDA's are in place and that production could start as soon as the tooling is paid for. Let's say that we all understand what this new development is capable of turning into; how an entirely new family of cartridges would be developed to take advantage of it, and how it may have just a slight impact on the industry by providing rifles with the same weight, design, size, and ergonomics of an AR15 - using all AR15 compatible parts except the receiver set, the magazine and the mag catch, but with cartridges that none can compete with from a standard AR15. Let's say that perhaps a company is considering designing an entirely new rifle platform around this metal magazine. Let's say that these metal magazines will not cost much more (or maybe less) than the currently available Magpul Pmags for the platform. Let's say that said company is currently discussing with and seeking additional distributors and dealers to solidify the supply chain. Let's say that once the tooling is funded, magazines would be "on shelves" about 6 months later. Let's say the company is considering crowd-funding the tooling, and providing those that contributed magazines at a discount for their contribution to get the project off the ground. Let's just say, hypothetically, that all of the above were accurate. Would you give this a "Meh", or would you give this a "I'll take a few"? Asking for a friend. That being said, if any fellow ARFCOM Industry Partners would like to contact us for more information or to get involved, please feel free to do so. *SIX8 is a Trademark of LWRC International, LLC |
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Magazine Manufacturers(s): 1) Company A (TBA) - Anticipated pricing for 30 Round magazine in either SPC or Grendel versions: $XX.00, anticipated pricing for 20 and 10 Round magazines in either SPC or Grendel versions: $XX.00 2) Company B (TBA) - Anticipated pricing for 30 Round magazine in either SPC or Grendel versions: $XX.00, anticipated pricing for 20 and 10 Round magazines in either SPC or Grendel versions: $XX.00 Rifle/Receiver Manufacturers: 1) LWRC SIX8 - the original, parent of the design platform - various Rifles in SIX8 configuration available in 6.8SPC, 224 Valkyrie. Receiver sets and/or builders kits sold via special run. 2) Sulzer Firearms - Receiver sets for $350/set - Billet, Cerakote 3) New Frontier Armory - Receiver sets for $275/set - Billet, Hard Coat Anodized - committed to manufacture in February of 2019, design and engineering ongoing, to be released soon. Existing Cartridges that could benefit from a 2.30"-2.39" COAL: SPC-case: 224 Valkyrie 22 Nosler 6.8SPC/6.8SPCII 6 WOA 6mm PDK 6mm Hagar 22 GPC 24 GPC 25 GPC 26 GPC 27 GPC 28 GPC 30 GPC 6x6.8 22x6.8 Grendel-case: 6.5 Grendel 22 Grendel 6mm Grendel 257 H&H/(25 Grendel) 7mm Grendel 30 ARX 30 Major 35 Grendel/358 Gremlin 338 Grendel 6mmAR Turbo and Turbo 40 |
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I think you can tell your friend
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A 30-round 6.5 Grendel magazine on the Six8 frame has my interest- I would love to have a .224 Grendel with higher capacity mags than is currently available.
I could be interested in the new family of cartridges in the .224 or 6mm bore. What kind of investment from the “crowd” are you looking for? It all sounds very interesting and promising. |
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Quoted:
A 30-round 6.5 Grendel magazine on the Six8 frame has my interest- I would love to have a .224 Grendel with higher capacity mags than is currently available. I could be interested in the new family of cartridges in the .224 or 6mm bore. What kind of investment from the “crowd” are you looking for? It all sounds very interesting and promising. View Quote It could be simple, pre-order mags through a crowdfund campaign... say you buy 4 mags at a discount, those funds go to the tooling and product and you get your mags once funded and done. Crowdfund campaign would run a couple months, then around 6 months to produce the magazines. Dont know if "the company" will need to do that though if enough investors line up and go straight to a distribution model. Let's see what people think before whoever executes either. A lot of people have been saying for a long time they want this, and here it is. |
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Quoted:
I think you can tell your friend ![]() ![]() View Quote |
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In for a couple of receiver sets and a pile of 6.5g mags if everything proves reliable.
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Quoted:
In for a couple of receiver sets and a pile of 6.5g mags if everything proves reliable. View Quote |
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This is being done to (help) enhance the capabilities of already existing cartridges like the 6.8SPC, the 6.5 Grendel, all of the variants made from both AND open the door for new, made-for-platform cartridges to be made that are true intermediate cartridges between the AR15 and AR10 platform.
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I like simple!
I’ve been a part of indiegogo gun part campgains before, I’ve bought mags prior to having the gun before, and I like receiver-set built ARs. I don’t know exactly how you want to quantify interest, but these proposals certainly interest me. |
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Are the other brand receiver sets compatible with the LWRC receivers or will this be more like lr308/ar10 with different manufacturers having different patterns?
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Quoted:
Are the other brand receiver sets compatible with the LWRC receivers or will this be more like lr308/ar10 with different manufacturers having different patterns? View Quote |
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I'll tell you that I was waiting for this since LWRC designed the lower, and when I was heavily invested in the 6.8 Spec II, and back then I was ready. I'll tell you that today I don't have any 6.8 stuff at all, not because I didn't like it, but because I was forced to sell all the guns, brass, dies, projos and powders I had for taxes, and when I bought new ones after they fixed their mistake and refunded me, but I was bitter on the AR at the time and went with a Tavor for myself and an AK for my son.
I'll also tell you, that I'm very interested as I'm getting back on my feet, and kinda wanting an AR. I need to buy a new bass guitar and multitrack recorder first, so I'll be a year or so away. |
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Well they should be available by the time you're ready then, as long as we see it is worth the investment!
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Quoted: Receiver sets will only get cheaper if this takes off, not more expensive. View Quote The beauty of the existing rounds are that they fit in an AR15 platform, with receiver sets that can be had for less than a C-note. I know...... go be poor somewhere else ![]() |
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Quoted: Receiver sets would have to come way down in price for me. The beauty of the existing rounds are that they fit in an AR15 platform, with receiver sets that can be had for less than a C-note. I know...... go be poor somewhere else ![]() View Quote Receiver set prices come down as demand rises and supply follows. |
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Do these receivers take standard BCGs?
This might push me back into 224V or similar again. |
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I would be in for a few. If the receiver sets are similarly price to a standard forged set, you should have no issue selling them. The LWRC set is WAY to expensive. If you get below $20 per magazine, you can sell a boat load. If you can make a reliable 25 round Grendel mag, you will sell a boat load.
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Quoted: Come on man, I'm already overloaded. ![]() Sounds like a good idea from a purely mechanical point of view. But it's a niche inside of a niche in terms of market share. View Quote Hey Mike love your receivers... my 277 Wolverine Tantal is built on one of them. It's only niche within niche because no one did it yet... then it moves to just 1 niche and then when a company like Hornady or Federal launches a cartridge for it, it's full-blown mainstream. If you want to know how easy it is to make the receiver set, just let me know! Thing is, you can already load to about 2.4" in most bolt guns so it wouldn't be a stand-alone in that regard. AK's used to be a niche... but those of us that knew better, knew better. Lots of potential! Gotta start somewhere! |
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It would be fantastic if they could incorporate the 22-250 cartridge into this project.
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Yes, a niche can be turned into something pretty big, we did it with AK receivers and the Retro program.
I'm not an advanced handloader, so correct me if I'm wrong. Wouldn't this also require barrels with longer throats to take advantage of the longer bullet seating? And to make it appeal to a broader audience you will have to get cheap factory ammo in the pipe because not everyone handloads. Performance vs size has always been the quandary with AR-15's. |
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When the 90gr Valkeryie load hit the streets, it was funny to me no one pursued this. Wondered if a 95+ gr load could be developed with a longer C.O.A.L.
BTW I've had Six8 mags for YEARS with no Six8 to put them in.....and after loading some 6.8 for reference the second thing I did was load a few Grendel in. If LWRC had ever really mainstreamed these, I'd probably own 2 - 3. Their production must be very small as sets and rifles seem rare. If they would offer their stripped monolithic SPR upper too that would be cool. |
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Quoted:
Yes, a niche can be turned into something pretty big, we did it with AK receivers and the Retro program. I'm not an advanced handloader, so correct me if I'm wrong. Wouldn't this also require barrels with longer throats to take advantage of the longer bullet seating? And to make it appeal to a broader audience you will have to get cheap factory ammo in the pipe because not everyone handloads. Performance vs size has always been the quandary with AR-15's. View Quote The 6.8SPC guys have wanted a way to "load long" for years... there is plenty of freebore in the SPCII to load out to 2.4" with some bullets.... which increases accuracy for some, velocity for some. There's a few threads around town about loading the Grendel long and what you can do there with some bullets... even using some that they could not use before due to mag length restrictions. All that goes away. But, yes as well - in some cases with certain cartridges if you don't increase your freebore you will only be encroaching on the lands with certain bullets. Cheap factory ammo is up to the big boys... we met with a couple at SHOT and they will support the endeavor any way they can... including considering new cartridge options or specific loads for the platform. They just want to see it get launched before they invest, which is fair. |
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Quoted:
When the 90gr Valkeryie load hit the streets, it was funny to me no one pursued this. Wondered if a 95+ gr load could be developed with a longer C.O.A.L. BTW I've had Six8 mags for YEARS with no Six8 to put them in.....and after loading some 6.8 for reference the second thing I did was load a few Grendel in. If LWRC had ever really mainstreamed these, I'd probably own 2 - 3. Their production must be very small as sets and rifles seem rare. If they would offer their stripped monolithic SPR upper too that would be cool. View Quote The receiver sets are easy to make. You don't "copy" the LWRC set, you take a receiver set and make it work with the metal mag (and therefore also Pmag), whichever way you want to look at it. Sulzer Firearms did this and they are a smaller firm... and sold out of their first run. All you need to do this is broach the new magwell, accommodate the magazine in the upper receiver, and replace the mag catch. The mag catch can be tricky but it isn't hard either. There is a third manufacturer in the wings ready to go as well once we formally announce the launch/program. They are not small, and are known for making awesome receivers in many cartridges and platforms. Take a look at New Frontier Armory's C4 Receiver set. Now just picture that made to fit the magazine. |
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Quoted:
It sounds like the AR12 of my dreams. ![]() I'd be majorly in. Off the top of my head, I'd love to see one firing 6mm Hagar: http://accurateshooter.net/Blog/sixhagar01.jpg I'm not sure if this is possible, but would it be possible to produce a 5.56 compatible version of this magazine? 5.56 loaded to 2.38" could likely equal the performance of .224 Valkyrie, while utilizing dirt cheap brass. http://www.us-rd.com/sitebuilder/images/20130316-3-600x428.jpg If you could fire both 5.56 Long as well as regular factory 5.56 ammo from the same rifle, I think that would be hugely popular. You get long range performance and cheap factory ammo out of the same rifle. Likewise, a 5.56 compatible Six8 mag could open up a whole new world for 6x45, 6.8x45, 7.62x45... View Quote |
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This hypothetical, would be the only reason I would purchase a Six8/Sulzer receiver set. Never made sense to buy it just to be pigeon holed into one magazine, but if they expand the COAL with metal mags, sign me up.
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Quoted:
This hypothetical, would be the only reason I would purchase a Six8/Sulzer receiver set. Never made sense to buy it just to be pigeon holed into one magazine, but if they expand the COAL with metal mags, sign me up. View Quote |
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I'd say "I ain't crowd funding anything" and wait for real money to be injected. Then I'd let other, more enthusiastic fps chasers beta test the new design. Once reliability and cost comes down, I'd be in.
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I think I would be inclined to build an 18” or 20” Grendel rifle on such a receiver set to compliment my lightweight 12.5” hunting pistol.
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So with the extra .130" of COAL what kind of performance gain can you expect in a 6.5G with 140gr bullets?
I don't have a 6.5G currently, but I love the Swede and having the same capability in an AR is intriguing. |
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Quoted:
So with the extra .130" of COAL what kind of performance gain can you expect in a 6.5G with 140gr bullets? I don't have a 6.5G currently, but I love the Swede and having the same capability in an AR is intriguing. View Quote I can also tell you that we have a cartridge drawn specifically for the mags/platform, that holds 40 grains H2O and can push a 123SST or 123 ELD-M about 200 fps faster than the Grendel, which is only about 200fps slower than the Creedmoor. I don't know what the gains with the Grendel would be with a 140 grain - it is a heavy-for-caliber bullet... and I am not experienced enough with the Grendel to say which bullets will take advantage - but there is a thread here I posted inquiring. I'll try to find it. We moved the front rib on the mags forward some so they ride on the cartridge necks, not the neck/shoulder junction. This way, longer case-bodies can be used as well as accommodating the original parents (6.8SPC and 6.5 Grendel). So, the opportunities for more cartridges with more case capacity and loaded longer are all there my friend. |
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Quoted:
Doesnt work like that here. The receiver sets all use standard AR15 parts except the magazine and magazine catch. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
Are the other brand receiver sets compatible with the LWRC receivers or will this be more like lr308/ar10 with different manufacturers having different patterns? Will your upper receiver work on an LWRC lower? Will your lower receiver work with an LWRC upper receiver? Will your lower receiver work with LWRC/Magpul six8 magazines? Will your metal mags work in the LWRC lower receiver? Sorry if you covered this in the op. |
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@mike_nds
Thanks B. Quoted:
here is an estimate for a long loaded grendel with a 140 sst from a 24" barrel https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/261615/grendel_long__140_JPG-841756.jpg View Quote |
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Quoted:
You missed the question, let mecbe more specific. Will your upper receiver work on an LWRC lower? Not my receiver sets, we are just getting the mags done. To answer though, the upper receivers are generally thicker, like Billet - to accommodate the portion that gets milled out to accept the larger magazine. The spec on material to be removed remains the same - to accommodate the magazine is all you need to do. One of our guys took an upper (Bear Creek side-charge I think?) and milled a little out and it runs great. so, the spec to accept the magazine is the same. We cannot control whatever anyone else does in the marketplace though. Again we are just getting the mags made and we develop cartridges. Will your lower receiver work with an LWRC upper receiver? Same as above but lower vs. upper. Will your lower receiver work with LWRC/Magpul six8 magazines? Yes - the metal magazines have the same outer dimensions as the Pmags, so they both will fit in any gun that accepts them. Will your metal mags work in the LWRC lower receiver? Same as above, yes, vice-versa. Sorry if you covered this in the op. No problem, happy to help. View Quote Will your lower receiver work with an LWRC upper receiver? Same as above but lower vs. upper. As an FYI the LWRC has a lot of doo-dads on it, and I don't think the newer less expensive sets will accommodate all their doo-dads (technical talk). Will your lower receiver work with LWRC/Magpul six8 magazines? Yes - the metal magazines have the same outer dimensions as the Pmags, so they both will fit in any gun that accepts them. Will your metal mags work in the LWRC lower receiver? Same as above, yes, vice-versa. Sorry if you covered this in the op. No problem, happy to help. |
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If you guys can get around litigious guy who has a patent on larger bolt faces (I forget his company name, out of NV), get a consistent standard supply of large bolts for the fat cats and make them work with this new mag, that will be a home run. The Timberwolf and Sabercat will benefit greatly. All cartridges would benefit too obviously, but those would see a significant improvement in bullet choices.
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Looks like it may be a while 'til you get to it, but if this would allow a person to build a 358 Yeti that could take advantage of the Barnes TTSX 200 grain with a G1 BC of .369, that would be all it would take to push me over the edge. I'm not sure there will be enough additional length for that. But if you were to produce an AR-15 that could launch 200 grain bullets with a .369 BC out the muzzle at 2500 fps, I am sure you could sell a few of those. I haven't run those numbers, but I would guess that's a nearly 500 yard elk round - from an AR-15.
If you build it, people will come. They will most definitely come. |
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Quoted: Yes 5.56 versions and ".308 case" versions are possible, too. Seriously, it's a slam dunk. The first ones to be made will be 6.8SPC case and 6.5 Grendel case because those two platforms offer more case capacity than 5.56, and, cartridges like our "Fat Cats" are not as mainstream yet. View Quote In terms of the 6.8 and 6.5 brass based cartridges, any plans for a 6mm cartridge optimized for the new 2.39 col? A good 6mm is really whats missing. Also, for partnerships - have you contacted PSA? I think that would be a huge jump start - getting a PSA "AR12" for $600-$700 would do wonders for increasing popularity for new shooters. |
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Metal mags that fit the SIX8 mag set is something I have been advocating, and waiting for, for many moons. I get most things done with 2.295" OAL, but I shot alot of pigs with the 110 TTSX's when we first started testing the new, heavier bullets in bolt guns. Most of those loads were 2.333 to 2.40"
If you can pull off getting metal mags made, which allow for longer loading that will fit my two existing SIX8 guns, I'm in... |
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