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AK, USA
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Posted: 6/17/2024 6:49:15 PM EDT
What might be possible if they redid the twist rate for the 300 black using lessons from the 8.6 twist rate?
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Posted: 6/17/2024 6:54:11 PM EDT
[#1]
They did already with the 1:5.
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AK, USA
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Posted: 6/17/2024 7:09:31 PM EDT
[#2]
I hadn't heard. Please tell me more.
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Posted: 6/17/2024 9:05:51 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TSH77769: I hadn't heard. Please tell me more. More barrel mfrs are starting to offer 1:5 twist for 300BLK |
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Posted: 6/17/2024 9:13:22 PM EDT
[#4]
Just be careful with projectile selection. 8.6 was initially plagued with peijectiles coming apart in the barrel or.soon after exiting
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MN, USA
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Posted: 6/17/2024 10:55:36 PM EDT
[#5]
Originally Posted By TSH77769: What might be possible if they redid the twist rate for the 300 black using lessons from the 8.6 twist rate? What lessons? |
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NC, USA
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Posted: 6/17/2024 11:56:33 PM EDT
[#6]
I'd be interested in the 8.6 with a bit more relaxed twist . The 1:3 just seems crazy
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Posted: 6/18/2024 8:40:18 AM EDT
[Last Edit: campower]
[#7]
Faxon has offered a 1:5 300blk for a couple years now.
I've shot a few critters with 1:5, with 1:7 1:8, no discernable difference. Pure 100% complete and total snake oil. Fancy Gel tests mean less than nothing to me besides they look fun. The bald whiny guy who talks too much and kills Buffalo in africa with the 8.6 blackout is the most foolish shit I've seen. It's his money and his hunts, but what a turd, acting like one iota of this is groundbreaking. Elmer Keith was killing shit bigger than that further away with bullets the same weight going the same speed from a revolver 100 years ago. Compound bows shooting arrows with broadheads 300fps have been penetrating large game forever. Didn't need a special barrel in a special chambering with a special twist with a special bullet in a special suppressor. If any of this offends you or your initial though is "yeah but...." you are a living talking and breathing demonstration of the power of marketing. Remember when the "honey badger" was supposed to "replace" the MP5? Thing couldn't even run full auto without bolt bounce issues... fine MP5 replacement that is... Marketing jizz, all of it. |
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Posted: 6/18/2024 9:07:06 AM EDT
[#8]
Kevin had talked about it quite a bit. Think they’ve tested down to 1:1 with one setup. The problem is that you drastically limit projectiles.
I think it’s interesting and like to see the new bullets made for them. Ultimately I’m a cheap ass and am sticking with standard blackout stuff. Same reason I dont have an 8.6 Blackout even though I think it’s awesome. 30 cal bullets are expensive enough forget about 338. |
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MN, USA
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Posted: 6/18/2024 11:25:08 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 9D1Alpha: I'd be interested in the 8.6 with a bit more relaxed twist . The 1:3 just seems crazy That's the problem. Super fast twist makes it one dimensional. If all you want to do is quietly lob uber-heavy projectiles like a trebuchet, fine. Meh! |
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PA, USA
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Posted: 6/18/2024 1:08:43 PM EDT
[#10]
Kevin claims a lot of BS. Yeah, he's designed some cool stuff, but he also has a tendency to embellish a lot too. You don't think major manufacturers haven't experimented with fast twists before Kevin came along? If it was all that Kevin claims, you can be sure it would have been on the market a long time ago.
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NC, USA
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Posted: 6/18/2024 1:51:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9D1Alpha]
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By s4s4u: That's the problem. Super fast twist makes it one dimensional. If all you want to do is quietly lob uber-heavy projectiles like a trebuchet, fine. Meh! Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By s4s4u: Originally Posted By 9D1Alpha: I'd be interested in the 8.6 with a bit more relaxed twist . The 1:3 just seems crazy That's the problem. Super fast twist makes it one dimensional. If all you want to do is quietly lob uber-heavy projectiles like a trebuchet, fine. Meh! I think a 1:10-1:12 would be suffiently twisty enough for some regular guy 160-210gr . * the 160gr ttsx fb has a SD of .231 ...not a 338 federal but I'd be comfortable with it . |
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Posted: 6/18/2024 2:46:36 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By EDL: Kevin claims a lot of BS. Yeah, he's designed some cool stuff, but he also has a tendency to embellish a lot too. You don't think major manufacturers haven't experimented with fast twists before Kevin came along? If it was all that Kevin claims, you can be sure it would have been on the market a long time ago. I’m not sure that’s correct. One of the things he talks about a lot is that he is able to pursue niche things which most manufacturers have no real desire to do. Kevin is a loud bragger type dude but I see a lot of criticism against him that doesn’t seem correct to me. He’s obviously good at something. It could be identifying good people or having good ideas or maybe just out working 99% of people like most other successful people. |
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Posted: 6/18/2024 3:56:16 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ALASKANFIRE: I’m not sure that’s correct. One of the things he talks about a lot is that he is able to pursue niche things which most manufacturers have no real desire to do. Kevin is a loud bragger type dude but I see a lot of criticism against him that doesn’t seem correct to me. He’s obviously good at something. It could be identifying good people or having good ideas or maybe just out working 99% of people like most other successful people. Marketing is the answer. Marketing. Kevin is a phenomenal marketer. His products are all memes one way the other. 8.6 Blackout is the tip of the mountain though. In what world is this better than literally everything else as a "hunting" round. Foolishness. Stealth you say? 300blk, 9mm, 45acp, hell 338 lapua loaded with trail boss if you so desire. All been around a long time, and have been shitty game killers for just as long. This fast twist subsonic buisness has been tested by pistol/revolver manufacturers a century ago. Snake oil folks. |
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Posted: 6/18/2024 4:31:26 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By campower: Marketing is the answer. Marketing. Kevin is a phenomenal marketer. His products are all memes one way the other. 8.6 Blackout is the tip of the mountain though. In what world is this better than literally everything else as a "hunting" round. Foolishness. Stealth you say? 300blk, 9mm, 45acp, hell 338 lapua loaded with trail boss if you so desire. All been around a long time, and have been shitty game killers for just as long. This fast twist subsonic buisness has been tested by pistol/revolver manufacturers a century ago. Snake oil folks. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By campower: Originally Posted By ALASKANFIRE: I’m not sure that’s correct. One of the things he talks about a lot is that he is able to pursue niche things which most manufacturers have no real desire to do. Kevin is a loud bragger type dude but I see a lot of criticism against him that doesn’t seem correct to me. He’s obviously good at something. It could be identifying good people or having good ideas or maybe just out working 99% of people like most other successful people. Marketing is the answer. Marketing. Kevin is a phenomenal marketer. His products are all memes one way the other. 8.6 Blackout is the tip of the mountain though. In what world is this better than literally everything else as a "hunting" round. Foolishness. Stealth you say? 300blk, 9mm, 45acp, hell 338 lapua loaded with trail boss if you so desire. All been around a long time, and have been shitty game killers for just as long. This fast twist subsonic buisness has been tested by pistol/revolver manufacturers a century ago. Snake oil folks. I don’t think I’ve ever heard him say it’s better than everything. A century ago we didn’t have purpose built long copper bullets made to expand at subsonic velocities. |
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Posted: 6/18/2024 6:09:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: campower]
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ALASKANFIRE: I don’t think I’ve ever heard him say it’s better than everything. A century ago we didn’t have purpose built long copper bullets made to expand at subsonic velocities. No, we did have custom casted bullets tailored for a specific handgun/rifle that would expand at subsonic velocities. We have mechanical broadheads and such as well. 8.6 is purely moneypit. The drop on these subs is so significant... the logic is screwed. If one fabric of the 8.6 nomenclature were valid we would all be using 1000gr slugs at subsonic velocities. I've done the subsonic hunting crap. It's crap. It's no different than killing with a compound bow. Shit dies, but it runs first. I think every black bear shot with subsonics has run at least 100 yards into the pucker brush unless it was a head/spine shot. It's like a super bike. It's one of those things that is so damn amazing to daydream about and think about.... more fun than actually using most the time. Again, a special rifle in a special cartridge using a special twist using special bullets using special loads using a special suppressor with a special tracker guide team in a special hunting environment by a special man. If this isn't the most unrelatable anti-markering then I don't know what is. And on top of it all, it's not at all impressive! But hey, variety is the spice of life I guess... and if not for folks buying this crap companies like this wouldn't exist. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 6/18/2024 6:19:03 PM EDT
[#16]
Kevin B has stated that .300 blackout should have been 1:3 twist but the mil had already selected ammunition, so their hands were tied and went with 1:7 and then down to 1:5 for the LVAW submission.
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Posted: 6/18/2024 7:55:56 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By campower: No, we did have custom casted bullets tailored for a specific handgun/rifle that would expand at subsonic velocities. We have mechanical broadheads and such as well. 8.6 is purely moneypit. The drop on these subs is so significant... the logic is screwed. If one fabric of the 8.6 nomenclature were valid we would all be using 1000gr slugs at subsonic velocities. I've done the subsonic hunting crap. It's crap. It's no different than killing with a compound bow. Shit dies, but it runs first. I think every black bear shot with subsonics has run at least 100 yards into the pucker brush unless it was a head/spine shot. It's like a super bike. It's one of those things that is so damn amazing to daydream about and think about.... more fun than actually using most the time. Again, a special rifle in a special cartridge using a special twist using special bullets using special loads using a special suppressor with a special tracker guide team in a special hunting environment by a special man. If this isn't the most unrelatable anti-markering then I don't know what is. And on top of it all, it's not at all impressive! But hey, variety is the spice of life I guess... and if not for folks buying this crap companies like this wouldn't exist. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By campower: Originally Posted By ALASKANFIRE: I don’t think I’ve ever heard him say it’s better than everything. A century ago we didn’t have purpose built long copper bullets made to expand at subsonic velocities. No, we did have custom casted bullets tailored for a specific handgun/rifle that would expand at subsonic velocities. We have mechanical broadheads and such as well. 8.6 is purely moneypit. The drop on these subs is so significant... the logic is screwed. If one fabric of the 8.6 nomenclature were valid we would all be using 1000gr slugs at subsonic velocities. I've done the subsonic hunting crap. It's crap. It's no different than killing with a compound bow. Shit dies, but it runs first. I think every black bear shot with subsonics has run at least 100 yards into the pucker brush unless it was a head/spine shot. It's like a super bike. It's one of those things that is so damn amazing to daydream about and think about.... more fun than actually using most the time. Again, a special rifle in a special cartridge using a special twist using special bullets using special loads using a special suppressor with a special tracker guide team in a special hunting environment by a special man. If this isn't the most unrelatable anti-markering then I don't know what is. And on top of it all, it's not at all impressive! But hey, variety is the spice of life I guess... and if not for folks buying this crap companies like this wouldn't exist. A broadhead is a good comparison in my opinion and everyone that uses a bow to hunt uses them. Would a rifle be better? Yup but some want to hunt with a bow. Superbike seems like a weird comparison because they have substantially more performance available but I think I see what you are saying. The bottom line is that lots of people enjoy subsonic shooting including hunting and it's a growing market. People who want one gun that can do both super and subs with a little more punch than 300 Blackout can now go 8.6. I just don't understand why so many people get wound up against it. |
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MN, USA
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Posted: 6/18/2024 11:46:00 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ALASKANFIRE: A broadhead is a good comparison in my opinion and everyone that uses a bow to hunt uses them. Would a rifle be better? Yup but some want to hunt with a bow. Superbike seems like a weird comparison because they have substantially more performance available but I think I see what you are saying. The bottom line is that lots of people enjoy subsonic shooting including hunting and it's a growing market. People who want one gun that can do both super and subs with a little more punch than 300 Blackout can now go 8.6. I just don't understand why so many people get wound up against it. But, the 8.6 takes itself out of the equation with the ridiculous twist rate. It is a one trick pony disguised as a JoaT. |
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IL, USA
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Posted: 6/18/2024 11:47:16 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Omega9000: Kevin B has stated that .300 blackout should have been 1:3 twist but the mil had already selected ammunition, so their hands were tied and went with 1:7 and then down to 1:5 for the LVAW submission. Good thing .mil stepped in. 1:3 would have killed the cartridge in the crib. Sure, you can use .308 boolits, but only if they are all copper.  Kewl, you can only shoot the really expensive gucci rounds.
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Posted: 6/19/2024 12:16:03 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By s4s4u: But, the 8.6 takes itself out of the equation with the ridiculous twist rate. It is a one trick pony disguised as a JoaT. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By s4s4u: Originally Posted By ALASKANFIRE: A broadhead is a good comparison in my opinion and everyone that uses a bow to hunt uses them. Would a rifle be better? Yup but some want to hunt with a bow. Superbike seems like a weird comparison because they have substantially more performance available but I think I see what you are saying. The bottom line is that lots of people enjoy subsonic shooting including hunting and it's a growing market. People who want one gun that can do both super and subs with a little more punch than 300 Blackout can now go 8.6. I just don't understand why so many people get wound up against it. But, the 8.6 takes itself out of the equation with the ridiculous twist rate. It is a one trick pony disguised as a JoaT. I don't understand what you mean takes itself out of the equation. |
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MN, USA
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Posted: 6/19/2024 9:57:28 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ALASKANFIRE: I don't understand what you mean takes itself out of the equation. As a dual purpose, sub and super, platform. The fast twist is a detriment with super's. |
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Posted: 6/19/2024 5:41:32 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By s4s4u: As a dual purpose, sub and super, platform. The fast twist is a detriment with super's. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By s4s4u: Originally Posted By ALASKANFIRE: I don't understand what you mean takes itself out of the equation. As a dual purpose, sub and super, platform. The fast twist is a detriment with super's. You're stuck with Barnes and similarly constructed bullets which seem to be pretty available. It will never approach 300 Blackout level adoption so who knows how it ends up. |
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MN, USA
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Posted: 6/19/2024 6:49:30 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ALASKANFIRE: You're stuck with Barnes and similarly constructed bullets which seem to be pretty available. It will never approach 300 Blackout level adoption so who knows how it ends up. It's not just about bullet construction. There is a phenomenon known as spin drift. Light bullets at high RPM will ride a crosswind like backspin on a tennis ball and you will get shifts in elevation as well as windage, even with a moderate crosswind. It just isn't a good combination and there is no need for a 3 twist even with sub's. It is a pet project that has piqued the interest of enough folks to keep floating. Slow the twist down and you would have a legit dual purpose platform. As it is, it is sub's only for any practical purposes. |
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Posted: 6/19/2024 8:04:09 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By s4s4u: It's not just about bullet construction. There is a phenomenon known as spin drift. Light bullets at high RPM will ride a crosswind like backspin on a tennis ball and you will get shifts in elevation as well as windage, even with a moderate crosswind. It just isn't a good combination and there is no need for a 3 twist even with sub's. It is a pet project that has piqued the interest of enough folks to keep floating. Slow the twist down and you would have a legit dual purpose platform. As it is, it is sub's only for any practical purposes. Very good points. Subsonics are extremely sensitive to small ES and SD changes, let alone a wacky spin drift due to a trendy twist that allegedly helps your subsonic/suboptimal terminal performance. And to your point, exactly. Why would anyone chose a bigger case for a subsonic only round? 300BLK is in a lighter platform, brass is everywhere, projectiles everywhere, and as science and real hunters have proven time and time again, with subsonics bullet construction matters 10,000X more than bullet weight or size. So again, what does 8.6 do that's not already being done better? I mean if that 40gr of copper are what's making the difference to you, what the hell are you doing hunting with subsonics in the first place? And if you have to, why wouldn't you use say 458 socom for example with a 400gr bullet made to expand over 1"? Marketing. |
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Posted: 6/19/2024 9:02:20 PM EDT
[#25]
Originally Posted By s4s4u: It's not just about bullet construction. There is a phenomenon known as spin drift. Light bullets at high RPM will ride a crosswind like backspin on a tennis ball and you will get shifts in elevation as well as windage, even with a moderate crosswind. It just isn't a good combination and there is no need for a 3 twist even with sub's. It is a pet project that has piqued the interest of enough folks to keep floating. Slow the twist down and you would have a legit dual purpose platform. As it is, it is sub's only for any practical purposes. The spin drift is really only an issue at longer ranges right? There are already people these guns with slower twist barrels and I am sure that will continue. Originally Posted By campower: Very good points. Subsonics are extremely sensitive to small ES and SD changes, let alone a wacky spin drift due to a trendy twist that allegedly helps your subsonic/suboptimal terminal performance. And to your point, exactly. Why would anyone chose a bigger case for a subsonic only round? 300BLK is in a lighter platform, brass is everywhere, projectiles everywhere, and as science and real hunters have proven time and time again, with subsonics bullet construction matters 10,000X more than bullet weight or size. So again, what does 8.6 do that's not already being done better? I mean if that 40gr of copper are what's making the difference to you, what the hell are you doing hunting with subsonics in the first place? And if you have to, why wouldn't you use say 458 socom for example with a 400gr bullet made to expand over 1"? Marketing. It's not subsonic only so I'm not sure why you'd say that. 458 SOCOM/450 Bushmaster/50 Beowulf all single stack so you lose a bunch of capacity. 8.6 keeps fulls capacity just like 300. 8.6 is made to do all the stuff 300 does with just a little more oomph/power/energy whatever your preferred term is. Maybe we end up with something similar to the 110 TacTX that does so well. Size weight and shape absolutely matter in a hunting bullet or else there would be no reason for bigger calibers. I agree that construction is important but it's only one part. If you take two bullets of similar construction and proportional size going similar speeds but one is heavier it is more likely to perform better. |
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Posted: 6/19/2024 9:32:15 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ALASKANFIRE: The spin drift is really only an issue at longer ranges right? There are already people these guns with slower twist barrels and I am sure that will continue. It's not subsonic only so I'm not sure why you'd say that. 458 SOCOM/450 Bushmaster/50 Beowulf all single stack so you lose a bunch of capacity. 8.6 keeps fulls capacity just like 300. 8.6 is made to do all the stuff 300 does with just a little more oomph/power/energy whatever your preferred term is. Maybe we end up with something similar to the 110 TacTX that does so well. Size weight and shape absolutely matter in a hunting bullet or else there would be no reason for bigger calibers. I agree that construction is important but it's only one part. If you take two bullets of similar construction and proportional size going similar speeds but one is heavier it is more likely to perform better. Man, it just seems too much like hard work to justify this cartridge an any regard other than "I have one of those too." By your point it's "like a 300 blackout", just Heavier Less capacity Less standardization... or any standardization Much much much more expensive Same wounding power... it's a pick the right bullet get a full pass kinda game, the difference between a 240gr 30 cal and a 260-300gr 338 bullets just do not even coming close to justifying the above mentioned reasons. Marketing. |
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MN, USA
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Posted: 6/19/2024 9:47:46 PM EDT
[#27]
The spin drift is really only an issue at longer ranges right? There are already people these guns with slower twist barrels and I am sure that will continue. Correct. But, isn't the general purpose of supersonic projectiles to extend the range? It is easy to see you really like it, but there are a lot of us who couldn't give 2-shitz about it. It is a niche cartridge with limited possibilities due to a lack of suitable projectiles and their stupid fast twist. 100% subsonic, I can see it's appeal but that limits it's potential. Early on some dudes were actually thinking it could be a viable hunting platform out to ridiculous distances, until they saw the ballistics arc. So then, same dudes are like "well we can shoot supers....", oh wait.... It's a big ole MEH from me, sorry. |
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Posted: 6/19/2024 10:24:29 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By s4s4u: Correct. But, isn't the general purpose of supersonic projectiles to extend the range? It is easy to see you really like it, but there are a lot of us who couldn't give 2-shitz about it. It is a niche cartridge with limited possibilities due to a lack of suitable projectiles and their stupid fast twist. 100% subsonic, I can see it's appeal but that limits it's potential. Early on some dudes were actually thinking it could be a viable hunting platform out to ridiculous distances, until they saw the ballistics arc. So then, same dudes are like "well we can shoot supers....", oh wait.... It's a big ole MEH from me, sorry. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By s4s4u: The spin drift is really only an issue at longer ranges right? There are already people these guns with slower twist barrels and I am sure that will continue. Correct. But, isn't the general purpose of supersonic projectiles to extend the range? It is easy to see you really like it, but there are a lot of us who couldn't give 2-shitz about it. It is a niche cartridge with limited possibilities due to a lack of suitable projectiles and their stupid fast twist. 100% subsonic, I can see it's appeal but that limits it's potential. Early on some dudes were actually thinking it could be a viable hunting platform out to ridiculous distances, until they saw the ballistics arc. So then, same dudes are like "well we can shoot supers....", oh wait.... It's a big ole MEH from me, sorry. I don't really like it and will probably never own one. What I see a lot of in my opinion is people mischaracterizing it. I do love seeing the subsonic market expand and Kevin has definitely been a part of that. I've said numerous times that I hope they keep expanding the Blackout line. I'd love to see a wide range just like the Whisper lineup but with SAAMI approval and industry support. The 8.6 Blackout case is pretty close in size to the 7BR that JD Jones used for a lot of the Whisper chamberings. It's the right size for getting big heavy bullets to fit in 308 mags. I started listening to the Q podcast a while back and when Kevin would talk about the 8.6 he basically just says it a little bit better than the 300. That's it. He wasn't constrained by any contracts or customers so he got to do whatever he wanted hence the whacky fast twist. I saw a thread somewhere saying Hornady might not be onboard with the 8.6 anymore so it might just die off quickly. They were a big reason the 300 did so well. |
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Posted: 6/19/2024 10:28:13 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By campower: Man, it just seems too much like hard work to justify this cartridge an any regard other than "I have one of those too." By your point it's "like a 300 blackout", just Heavier Less capacity Less standardization... or any standardization Much much much more expensive Same wounding power... it's a pick the right bullet get a full pass kinda game, the difference between a 240gr 30 cal and a 260-300gr 338 bullets just do not even coming close to justifying the above mentioned reasons. Marketing. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By campower: Originally Posted By ALASKANFIRE: The spin drift is really only an issue at longer ranges right? There are already people these guns with slower twist barrels and I am sure that will continue. It's not subsonic only so I'm not sure why you'd say that. 458 SOCOM/450 Bushmaster/50 Beowulf all single stack so you lose a bunch of capacity. 8.6 keeps fulls capacity just like 300. 8.6 is made to do all the stuff 300 does with just a little more oomph/power/energy whatever your preferred term is. Maybe we end up with something similar to the 110 TacTX that does so well. Size weight and shape absolutely matter in a hunting bullet or else there would be no reason for bigger calibers. I agree that construction is important but it's only one part. If you take two bullets of similar construction and proportional size going similar speeds but one is heavier it is more likely to perform better. Man, it just seems too much like hard work to justify this cartridge an any regard other than "I have one of those too." By your point it's "like a 300 blackout", just Heavier Less capacity Less standardization... or any standardization Much much much more expensive Same wounding power... it's a pick the right bullet get a full pass kinda game, the difference between a 240gr 30 cal and a 260-300gr 338 bullets just do not even coming close to justifying the above mentioned reasons. Marketing. I disagree on same wounding power. That's precisely what it has over the 300. Do most people need it? nope. Same reason 6.8 SPC/6.5 Grendel aren't as common as 223/556. They both handily outperform the 556 at almost everything except raw speed yet most people aren't willing to spend the money because it adds up. Hunting however is one area where people are happy to spend money on premium rounds. |
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NC, USA
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Posted: 6/19/2024 10:50:47 PM EDT
[#30]
I don't see much practical use for 300blk that already have access to 1:5 and 1:7 bbls .
Now 8.6blk could benefit from a 1:10 ... m1 tanker ...sfar sbr ... that would be awesome. |
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Posted: 6/19/2024 11:19:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: campower]
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ALASKANFIRE: I disagree on same wounding power. That's precisely what it has over the 300. Do most people need it? nope. Same reason 6.8 SPC/6.5 Grendel aren't as common as 223/556. They both handily outperform the 556 at almost everything except raw speed yet most people aren't willing to spend the money because it adds up. Hunting however is one area where people are happy to spend money on premium rounds. Okay so I'm hearing what your saying brother, but listen. The mist of marketing is what tells you that the baby-hair thin line of improvement from 300BLK subs to 8.6 BLK subs means anything. It's a lie. It doesn't. Whatever puny margin of improvement does exist pales and I mean PALES in comparison to a damn .243 winchester loaded with 103gr hunting round in every regard, except it's quiet... if using special ammo in special gun with special suppressor. I know this seems like a apples and orange comparison, but the kind of marketing and cost of 8.6 does not substantiate when compared to the marginal performance "gain". Even in a best case scenario for your side of the discussion, what's the 8.6 get you, another 20 yards of stone dropping performance? If a guy had a compound bow that shot 300fps, and cost him $200 a year in arrows (humor me) what would you say to said gentleman when he purchase a $3000 bow that weighs more and shoots 330fps and cost him $2000 a year in arrows to shoot and hunts in the exact same spots? I know I know, "free country" and all, but let's put everything else aside and be objective. The answer is still marketing. Shit I can go on and on. Anyone hear of the 9x39 Russian? You know the specialized 265gr subsonic round put in a Intergrally suppresed DMR? Ever watch the videos with the Russian on forgotten weapons when they talk about this round for 30 min and how atrocious the drop was and how niche it was even for military applications? Ya that's the ballistic twin of the 8.6 Blackout, except it's in 9mm, so a slightly bigger bullet than the 8.6. This stuff has been done, tested, and moved on from 30 years ago. Damn you, Kevin, you marketing stud you. |
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LA, USA
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Posted: 6/20/2024 7:07:24 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By campower: Faxon has offered a 1:5 300blk for a couple years now. I've shot a few critters with 1:5, with 1:7 1:8, no discernable difference. Pure 100% complete and total snake oil. Fancy Gel tests mean less than nothing to me besides they look fun. The bald whiny guy who talks too much and kills Buffalo in africa with the 8.6 blackout is the most foolish shit I've seen. It's his money and his hunts, but what a turd, acting like one iota of this is groundbreaking. Elmer Keith was killing shit bigger than that further away with bullets the same weight going the same speed from a revolver 100 years ago. Compound bows shooting arrows with broadheads 300fps have been penetrating large game forever. Didn't need a special barrel in a special chambering with a special twist with a special bullet in a special suppressor. If any of this offends you or your initial though is "yeah but...." you are a living talking and breathing demonstration of the power of marketing. Remember when the "honey badger" was supposed to "replace" the MP5? Thing couldn't even run full auto without bolt bounce issues... fine MP5 replacement that is... Marketing jizz, all of it. 100% this. |
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IL, USA
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Posted: 6/20/2024 8:51:40 PM EDT
[#33]
New calibers are always cool, but I have a hard time seeing a large market for it. It is super-duper niche.
I guess I would like to hear the logic behind 8.6 over something like 350 Legend or 458 SOCOM subs that exist today. Twist rate? If it is the ability to shoot it out of an AR-10 platform, it is completely missing the point of trying to copy 300blk success. 1. Small frames, 5.56 mags, 5.56 bolts, 5.56 brass, and .308 bullets are standardized and are everywhere. 2. The short barrel supersonic capability of 300blk is actually what sets it apart from most other rifle calibers in general. If you are not shooting subs in an 8.6, are you going to bother with supers? Seems like a caliber that makes more sense in a bolt action to me. |
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Posted: 6/20/2024 9:00:01 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By panthermark: I guess I would like to hear the logic behind 8.6 over something like 350 Legend or 458 SOCOM subs that exist today. Twist rate? Increased ballistic coefficients and higher sectional density for a given bullet weight are the first things that come to mind |
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IL, USA
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Posted: 6/20/2024 9:39:56 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Luny421: Increased ballistic coefficients and higher sectional density for a given bullet weight are the first things that come to mind But for what use case? Long distance subsonic shooting? It is a basically, when 300blk, 350L, and 458SOCOM can't get the job done but 9x39 and .510 Whisper are too one-off....enter 8.6blk. That is a tiny niche. I'm sure the niche exists, it is just something that does not have mass appeal. Q is spending too much time trying to compare and contrast it to 300blk, when it is missing 87% of what made 300blk take off. |
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Posted: 6/20/2024 9:59:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: campower]
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Luny421: Increased ballistic coefficients and higher sectional density for a given bullet weight are the first things that come to mind Makes absolutely no real world difference. None. Zero. Zilch. Only in Narnia. With subsonics it's 100% just about getting a full pass with as big a hole as possible. Stuff has to bleed out typically to die. |
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MN, USA
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Posted: 6/20/2024 10:16:13 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Luny421: Increased ballistic coefficients and higher sectional density for a given bullet weight are the first things that come to mind But what does that actually compute to when you are limiting muzzle velocity to <1100 fps? I would take my 45 Colt loaded with 360 grain hardcast @ 1100ish over the 8.6 any day when it comes to big game. Guaranteed bone crushing penetration and holes through both sides. Uber-expanding sub's act like a parachute when they open so penetration can be limited. There are far more reasons to dismiss the 8.6 than there are to justify it. |
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Posted: 6/20/2024 10:17:56 PM EDT
[#38]
Hey, you asked, I answered. I don’t have a dog in this fight, and I’m certainly not as emotionally invested as the folks in this thread.
I see after all these years KB still has the uncanny ability to rile folks up. 
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Posted: 6/20/2024 10:20:27 PM EDT
[#39]
Lol, the number of people in this thread who spend an inordinate amount of time trying to convince other people to stop liking what they don’t like. We get it, move on.
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Posted: 6/20/2024 10:27:35 PM EDT
[#40]
Originally Posted By campower: Makes absolutely no real world difference. None. Zero. Zilch. Only in Narnia. With subsonics it's 100% just about getting a full pass with as big a hole as possible. Stuff has to bleed out typically to die. Originally Posted By s4s4u: But what does that actually compute to when you are limiting muzzle velocity to <1100 fps? I would take my 45 Colt loaded with 360 grain hardcast @ 1100ish over the 8.6 any day when it comes to big game. Guaranteed bone crushing penetration and holes through both sides. Uber-expanding sub's act like a parachute when they open so penetration can be limited. There are far more reasons to dismiss the 8.6 than there are to justify it. It's not subsonic only. |
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Posted: 6/20/2024 10:41:08 PM EDT
[#41]
Originally Posted By Luny421: Increased ballistic coefficients and higher sectional density for a given bullet weight are the first things that come to mind Originally Posted By Luny421: Hey, you asked, I answered. I don’t have a dog in this fight, and I’m certainly not as emotionally invested as the folks in this thread. I see after all these years KB still has the uncanny ability to rile folks up. Originally Posted By Luny421: Lol, the number of people in this thread who spend an inordinate amount of time trying to convince other people to stop liking what they don’t like. We get it, move on. You replied to the thread three times, so you so have a dog. A very small fluffy one. Makes me cringe to pull tech form here, but your third post is stupid. Technical discussions can have technical disagreements with a technical thread. "Folks getting riles up about rah rah rah" contributes nothing. Juat because someone likes 8.6 doesn't mean folks have hand out false commandments and admiration. The World has enough of that molly coddle bull-shit. 8.6 is dumb, and I'll technically, mechanically, ballistically, terminally tell you why it's dumb, with a dump-truck of anecdotes. 1:5 twist on 300BLK is dumb. Only limits, doesn't provide anything except imaginary awesomeness. Admittedly, imaginary awesomeness is perfectly acceptable to alot of folks. And that's cool. But let's not pretend here. Marketing. And get back to gd. |
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Posted: 6/20/2024 11:08:09 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By campower: You replied to the thread three times, so you so have a dog. A very small fluffy one. Makes me cringe to pull tech form here, but your third post is stupid. Technical discussions can have technical disagreements with a technical thread. "Folks getting riles up about rah rah rah" contributes nothing. Juat because someone likes 8.6 doesn't mean folks have hand out false commandments and admiration. The World has enough of that molly coddle bull-shit. 8.6 is dumb, and I'll technically, mechanically, ballistically, terminally tell you why it's dumb, with a dump-truck of anecdotes. 1:5 twist on 300BLK is dumb. Only limits, doesn't provide anything except imaginary awesomeness. Admittedly, imaginary awesomeness is perfectly acceptable to alot of folks. And that's cool. But let's not pretend here. Marketing. And get back to gd. Lolz How high is your blood pressure? |
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Posted: 6/21/2024 12:17:10 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Luny421: Lolz How high is your blood pressure? Low and slow, cupcake. Got anymore ballistic wisdom to share before your overdue hiatus? Tell Kevin we said hi. ......Marketing |
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Posted: 6/21/2024 12:19:56 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By campower: Low and slow, cupcake. Got anymore ballistic wisdom to share before your overdue hiatus? Tell Kevin we said hi. ......Marketing Maybe you need to take your own advice about this being a tech forum. |
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WI, USA
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Posted: 6/21/2024 12:27:58 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By s4s4u: It's not just about bullet construction. There is a phenomenon known as spin drift. Light bullets at high RPM will ride a crosswind like backspin on a tennis ball and you will get shifts in elevation as well as windage, even with a moderate crosswind. It just isn't a good combination and there is no need for a 3 twist even with sub's. It is a pet project that has piqued the interest of enough folks to keep floating. Slow the twist down and you would have a legit dual purpose platform. As it is, it is sub's only for any practical purposes. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By s4s4u: Originally Posted By ALASKANFIRE: You're stuck with Barnes and similarly constructed bullets which seem to be pretty available. It will never approach 300 Blackout level adoption so who knows how it ends up. It's not just about bullet construction. There is a phenomenon known as spin drift. Light bullets at high RPM will ride a crosswind like backspin on a tennis ball and you will get shifts in elevation as well as windage, even with a moderate crosswind. It just isn't a good combination and there is no need for a 3 twist even with sub's. It is a pet project that has piqued the interest of enough folks to keep floating. Slow the twist down and you would have a legit dual purpose platform. As it is, it is sub's only for any practical purposes. You are confusing two ideas: spin drift and aerodynamic jump. Spin drift is the procession of the bullet in line with its natural spin with a slight vertical component Aerodynamic jump is when a projectile spinning on its longitudinal axis faces into the wind in order to achieve the highest drag force at a perpendicular angle to the DOF |
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Posted: 6/21/2024 7:42:43 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ALASKANFIRE: Maybe you need to take your own advice about this being a tech forum. I asked for anymore ballistic advice, didn't I? Trying the best I can here, guy. Wasn't responding to you, but you seen so deeply emotionally invested in 8.6 you can't help but keep the shit pot stirring. It's a free country, man. Enjoy your 8.6. Just don't expect others to not recognize that's its dumb, and don't be upset when folks say as much with reasons to boot. |
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MN, USA
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Posted: 6/21/2024 9:39:35 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ALASKANFIRE: It's not subsonic only. Neither is the 45 Colt. I can load light bullets into the high teens, but that isn't ideal either. The 8.6 indeed is, in practical terms, subsonic only. One more time and then I am out, the uber-fast twist limits it's potential with super's, period, done, adios, aufweidersein  |
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Posted: 6/21/2024 8:16:57 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By campower: but you seen so deeply emotionally invested in 8.6 you can't help but keep the shit pot stirring. That’s rich… |
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