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Thanks Paul, looks like your daughter having lots of fun...It's great that they are enjoying the shooting sports. Looks like you better get som more ammo !
Glad everyone doing well...I too have been busy getting some new scopes mounted on my uppers and bore sighting them w/ the laser etc. I will also be heading for the Mountains for the opening of large game (rifle) hunting season...No worries w/ the dies, thanks. |
| Just came across these, I need to try'em in the Patriot. 6.5 100 gr A-max |
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Originally Posted By 1-Wolverine:
Just came across these, I need to try'em in the Patriot. 6.5 100 gr A-max A BC of .465 in a 100gr bullet? If they aren't too long, they should be perfect for the 6.5mm options in the AR. |
Advanced techniques are the basics mastered.
Excellence is an art won by training and habit. We are what we repeatedly do. -- Aristotle
Pistol/Shotgun/Rifle Instructor
Sig/Remington/RRA/Sabre Armorer
Excellence is an art won by training and habit. We are what we repeatedly do. -- Aristotle
Pistol/Shotgun/Rifle Instructor
Sig/Remington/RRA/Sabre Armorer
|
Originally Posted By Altair:
Originally Posted By 1-Wolverine:
Just came across these, I need to try'em in the Patriot. 6.5 100 gr A-max A BC of .465 in a 100gr bullet? If they aren't too long, they should be perfect for the 6.5mm options in the AR. Just got a box a few weeks ago...they look good, they measure about the same as the 95gr.Hornady V-Max...but have a much better BC vs. the V-Max. I removed the red polymer tip (weighs less than a grain) and measured the length @ .909" . They should work well in the 6.5mm PCC round for the AR-15...If they shoot accurate and expand fairly well at moderate ranges/velocies this could become THE bullet for our 6.5 PCC round. |
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Originally Posted By Dr69er:
Originally Posted By Altair:
Originally Posted By 1-Wolverine:
Just came across these, I need to try'em in the Patriot. 6.5 100 gr A-max A BC of .465 in a 100gr bullet? If they aren't too long, they should be perfect for the 6.5mm options in the AR. Just got a box a few weeks ago...they look good, they measure about the same as the 95gr.Hornady V-Max...but have a much better BC vs. the V-Max. I removed the red polymer tip (weighs les than a grain) and measured the length @ .909" . They should work well in the 6.5mm PCC round for the AR-15...If they shoot accurate and expand fairly well at moderate ranges/velocies this could become THE bullet for our 6.5 PCC round. I have been working way too much, I did not even know they were making them. How long are they with the tip? |
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Originally Posted By Altair:
Originally Posted By 1-Wolverine:
Just came across these, I need to try'em in the Patriot. 6.5 100 gr A-max A BC of .465 in a 100gr bullet? If they aren't too long, they should be perfect for the 6.5mm options in the AR. If it is a true .465 BC, that is very impressive for a 100 gr pill. I memory serves the 108 gr Lapua has a BC of .465. With the little slower speed of the Patriot, it may hold together and penetrate, and be a decent hunting bullet, I will have to try it out on a curly tailed test subject, and see how it does. |
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Originally Posted By 1-Wolverine:
Originally Posted By Altair:
Originally Posted By 1-Wolverine:
Just came across these, I need to try'em in the Patriot. 6.5 100 gr A-max A BC of .465 in a 100gr bullet? If they aren't too long, they should be perfect for the 6.5mm options in the AR. If it is a true .465 BC, that is very impressive for a 100 gr pill. I memory serves the 108 gr Lapua has a BC of .465. With the little slower speed of the Patriot, it may hold together and penetrate, and be a decent hunting bullet, I will have to try it out on a curly tailed test subject, and see how it does. Paul, please send us some pics/vids of some curly tails down when it happens...Thanks and good luck. |
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@ Dr69er,
Very interested in you 6.5 PCC. Do you have dies out and if so at what price. Also who if anybody is making barrels. I think I saw Black Hole Weaponry. Are there other choices? Give up a little to the Grendel but just need a new barrel. Commanality of spare parts is huge with me. |
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First blood w/ the 6.5mm PPC...155 lbs., button spike Buck @ 110 yards lasered...pics to follow (cant ge itt to transfer from cell phone). The 120gr. Speer SP job well done!
Eta: Field dressed Deer and No recovered bullet, complete passthrough, pics pending... |
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Originally Posted By Dr69er:
First blood w/ the 6.5mm PPC...155 lbs., button spike Buck @ 110 yards lasered...pics to follow (cant ge itt to transfer from cell phone). The 120gr. Speer SP job well done! Awesome job, you beat me to it. I am going tomorrow, loaded up some 100 gr partitions, and sighted in my favorite scope that I took off my old go-to hunting rifle, and put it on my new go-to hunting rifle. 
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Here are some of the pics I promised...My First Spike Buck kill w/ the 6.5mm PCC round...Laserd @ 110 Yards.
A few things surprised me: A) The weight/size of the Deer @ 155 lbs. B) The amount of blood loss from the Deer. C) Complete penetration of the bullet w/ the broadside shot. D) Exit wound at about .700" (as seen on the pic.) E) Was surprised the bullet was not deflected through the heavy wooded landscape. I was worried that I may miss the shot due to the heavily wooded hunting spot I had. The shot placement was not all that good, so I'm glad the 120gr. Speer did its job so well. |
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Originally Posted By 1-Wolverine:
Great job, that is some good eating right there. Where was the entrance? Did you gut it, or take to a processor? Autopsy photos? The entrance hole was directly on the opposite side of the Buck (from the picture), I did gut it and It was a complte pass through...It broke two ribbs on the exit side and left a approx. .700" exit hole. I forgot to take some more pics after gutting from all the excitement. |
| The 6.5 100gr Partitions are not pointy enough to load to mag length. I loaded some Saturday for Sundays deer hunt, to 2.26. I ran the first one I loaded through the chamber, and it functioned fine, testing and sighting in scope they worked fine, but I shot all I had at the bench, so I did not have to clear another live round until after the hunt Sunday. Well when I did, Partition was stuck in the lands, Doh. I will have to load a tad shorter. |
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Originally Posted By 1-Wolverine:
The 6.5 100gr Partitions are not pointy enough to load to mag length. I loaded some Saturday for Sundays deer hunt, to 2.26. I ran the first one I loaded through the chamber, and it functioned fine, testing and sighting in scope they worked fine, but I shot all I had at the bench, so I did not have to clear another live round until after the hunt Sunday. Well when I did, Partition was stuck in the lands, Doh. I will have to load a tad shorter. Paul, did you get a chance to chrono the 100gr. Partions loads at the bench? I also noticed that w/ my chamber w/ some rounds they will touch the lands of the rifling at 2.275" or less in some cases...I may get a throating kit to open-up the tight chambers we are seeing and lengthen the throat just a bit on the 6.5 PCC, a nice tight chamber is great for accuracy but not as good for COL/higher velocity and lower pressures... The kit is rather pricey, but I would like to give that option to all the 6.5mm PCC guys who may want/need the extra long throat for certain pills/loads... Good Luck with your next hunt Paul, keep us updated. |
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Originally Posted By Dr69er:
Here is a pic w/ the tip removed from the new 6.5mm Hornady A-Max... http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx65/Doc69er/IMGA0011.jpg This is w/ the tip in place... http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx65/Doc69er/IMGA0012.jpg Any comments on how the pointed bullets work with the plastic tips removed? Accuracy/velocity as well as on game? Thanks! |
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I've loaded some w/ the tips, they cycle fine but have not shot them yet...I was hoping after the hunt
to do some more testing but time was not on my side...Hopefully on my next trip to the range it will be able to do a more full report on the various load combos... |
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Did some real world 6.5 PCC terminal ballistic testing yesterday. The Patriot passed with flying colors (red).
Finally got a chance to go deer hunting yesterday, well it was more like deer killing than actually hunting. I was going up the tree in my climber, half way up, I hear something crashing through the clear-cut, and there is a small buck chasing a doe, normally my gun would be on the ground with the strap retriever attached, but I forgot to bring it, so as luck would have it, the Patriot was slung across my chest. I am hunting with a buddy on a small tract of land, and my buddy told me "we are not trophy hunting, if it's brown, it's down" okey dokey. I chambered a round, got on him, and whistled trying to stop him, no response, still trotting after the doe, then I yelled, still trotting. It was a pretty good poke across the clear-cut, I had guessed 200 yards, so I got the cross-hairs on his chest then moved it forward to the front edge of his throat to compensate for him trotting, squeezed the trigger. He dropped like a wet rag. The doe ran another thirty or forty yards, stopped and looked back to see what happened to her boyfriend, ( it is always the second look that gets you in trouble) that was her last mistake, poked a hole through her lungs. She ran off and crashed, I am sitting there all proud of myself thinking "that was easy", and look over to where the buck dropped, and dang if he ain't up and walking away. I decided I had better anchor him, and poked a hole in his lungs. My first shot on the buck hit him right where I was aiming, front edge of his throat, almost missed him. It must have stunned him, because he should not have dropped like he did from that shot, but I learned long ago that the only thing predictable about shooting animals, is they are unpredictable. After the excitement, I ranged both shots, 217 yards on the buck, and 242 yards on the doe. The 100 gr partition performed perfectly. Great golf ball sized exit wounds, good blood trail, completely destroyed the lungs and hearts. When Doc and I were planning this cartridge I had thought it would be a 250 yard and under whitetail gun, but with these results at 240 yards, I would not hesitate to take one out to 350. Thanks Carl, at Black Hole Weaponry for building awesome barrels, now if I can just get a Dragon Head brake for it, I can get rid of the goofy blue thread protector. 
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Originally Posted By 1-Wolverine:
Did some real world 6.5 PCC terminal ballistic testing yesterday. The Patriot passed with flying colors (red). Finally got a chance to go deer hunting yesterday, well it was more like deer killing than actually hunting. I was going up the tree in my climber, half way up, I hear something crashing through the clear-cut, and there is a small buck chasing a doe, normally my gun would be on the ground with the strap retriever attached, but I forgot to bring it, so as luck would have it, the Patriot was slung across my chest. I am hunting with a buddy on a small tract of land, and my buddy told me "we are not trophy hunting, if it's brown, it's down" okey dokey. I chambered a round, got on him, and whistled trying to stop him, no response, still trotting after the doe, then I yelled, still trotting. It was a pretty good poke across the clear-cut, I had guessed 200 yards, so I got the cross-hairs on his chest then moved it forward to the front edge of his throat to compensate for him trotting, squeezed the trigger. He dropped like a wet rag. The doe ran another thirty or forty yards, stopped and looked back to see what happened to her boyfriend, ( it is always the second look that gets you in trouble) that was her last mistake, poked a hole through her lungs. She ran off and crashed, I am sitting there all proud of myself thinking "that was easy", and look over to where the buck dropped, and dang if he ain't up and walking away. I decided I had better anchor him, and poked a hole in his lungs. My first shot on the buck hit him right where I was aiming, front edge of his throat, almost missed him. It must have stunned him, because he should not have dropped like he did from that shot, but I learned long ago that the only thing predictable about shooting animals, is they are unpredictable. After the excitement, I ranged both shots, 217 yards on the buck, and 242 yards on the doe. The 100 gr partition performed perfectly. Great golf ball sized exit wounds, good blood trail, completely destroyed the lungs and hearts. When Doc and I were planning this cartridge I had thought it would be a 250 yard and under whitetail gun, but with these results at 240 yards, I would not hesitate to take one out to 350. Thanks Carl, at Black Hole Weaponry for building awesome barrels, now if I can just get a Dragon Head brake for it, I can get rid of the goofy blue thread protector. http://i1095.photobucket.com/albums/i470/The-Wolverine/20111228_165500.jpg http://i1095.photobucket.com/albums/i470/The-Wolverine/20111228_155301.jpg http://i1095.photobucket.com/albums/i470/The-Wolverine/20111228_155542.jpg Fantastic Job Paul, Major Congrats!!! I will say this, those Whitetails are some very hardy animals ! Amazing performance w/ the 100gr, 6.5mm Partions at well over 200 yards ! I cant wait till you get some big Hogs to your credit ! Well Done. |
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Well finally getting around to getting the website up and running...However, it's still not anywhere near finished.
May finally get a chance to get some range time next week, fingers crossed. http://illirianengineeringc.ipage.com/index.html |
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Well look what came in last night, yep a professional throating reamer kit...For you lucky guys that ordered barrels through me I will
have your chamber throats cut to your specific load/length before I ship them out to you. 
A recent polishing job done on the chamber and M4 feedramp extension (all for free for those who order through me), I also did one for a 7.62 X 39mm barrel extension (non-M4) for a lontime friend that was more labor Intensive due to extra grinding and polishing that was need since it was not a M4 feedramp ext. and it needed to be blended w/ the upper reciever...(Don't ever buy a X39 barrel w/o M4 ramp extensions and a M4 cut upper reciever). 
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Originally Posted By BsChoy:
Dr69er, what is the difference between this and the other 223 based 6.5mm rounds that CH4D has listed?? The difference is that the other 223 based 6.5mm rounds that they have had is they did not have dies in those calibers in stock for years, and the case length,shoulder length and angle is different... as well as body taper... compared to the 6.5mm PCC round that is specically designed for the AR-15. |
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Originally Posted By Dr69er:
Originally Posted By BsChoy:
Dr69er, what is the difference between this and the other 223 based 6.5mm rounds that CH4D has listed?? The difference is that the other 223 based 6.5mm rounds that they have had is they did not have dies in those calibers in stock for in years, and the case length,shoulder length and angle is different... as well as body taper... compared to the 6.5mm PCC round that is specically designed for the AR-15. If I was to decide to build an AR on the 6.5 pcc are the barrels readily availble through BHW? Or do I need to supply diagrams and things like that |
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Originally Posted By BsChoy:
Originally Posted By Dr69er:
Originally Posted By BsChoy:
Dr69er, what is the difference between this and the other 223 based 6.5mm rounds that CH4D has listed?? The difference is that the other 223 based 6.5mm rounds that they have had is they did not have dies in those calibers in stock for in years, and the case length,shoulder length and angle is different... as well as body taper... compared to the 6.5mm PCC round that is specically designed for the AR-15. If I was to decide to build an AR on the 6.5 pcc are the barrels readily availble through BHW? Or do I need to supply diagrams and things like that Yes, they are ready to go, I believe they have one 16" 6.5mm PCC Bbl. in stock, otherwise, you will have to oder with your specific needs and wait about 10 weeks for your delivery. If you order through me, you will get the custom cut chamber throat, feedramp & chamber polish job for free...BHW won't if you order through them. |
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Web Link: http://illirianengineeringc.ipage.com/
Just finished two 6.5mm PCC chamber throating jobs ,they will now handle the longest VLD projectiles like the 123gr. Sierra Match King (SMK's) and Lapua 144gr. Scenar FMJBT's @ 2.300" COL/Max mag length. 
Pictured above 123gr. SMK (In the caliper) and the Hornady 120gr. A-Max. both @ 2.2995" COL. |
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Originally Posted By Lakemoor:
I'm getting excited to receive my barrel. Black Friday was very expensive.  Magazines like the Heckler & Koch 416 (HK Germany) Steel Marine AR-15 Mags, and the PRI 223 Rem/5.56 NATO that have long COL's of 2.302" Also, the longer throat helps lower chamber pressures and leads to higher velocity capability, all pluses. The throat is lengthened to the customers needs like a 123gr. SMK @ 2.298"... The current throat was cut a bit shorter than spec by the reamer manufacturer,as a result COL was between 2.258"-2.270" depending on the projectile. I am throating the chamber with a specific load so it just touches the lands of the rifling... So if you want to use std. mil-spec mags @ 2,275" or so the jump would be about .015-.020" etc. 
The HK (Heckler & Koch, Germany) 416 Steel Marine AR-15 Mag has the best COL of any Quality AR Magazine I has seen so far. Here is a pic above. |
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Nick, your brand new 6.5mm PCC barrel and the other goodies are on the way...You will get your package
by Friday the latest. I was really Impressed by the great overall quality on the new lasered 6.5mm PCC SS Poly P3 barrels, the bore is a as nice and brite as I have ever seen on a match quality barrel, ever ! I have seen some great Shilen, Kreiger, and Pac-Nor bores on my barrels w/ my other rifles and these are just as good and likely better ! Exterior fit and finish were just first class... Well anyway enjoy Nick, and give us a full range report when you can... |
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I will be posting the reamer/cartridge print this weekend on the website.
Thanks. http://illirianengineeringc.ipage.com/65mm––68mm-pcc-pics-video-clips-charts-load-data.html |
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Originally Posted By marinesg1012:
How about 18 inch target crown barrels with Middy gas? The 6.5mm PCC in 18" Mid-Gas Std. Contour is a popular choice, and is what I consider the minimum length for good overall performance, easy handling, and good barrel harmonics etc. The 16" barrel is fine as well, however, it will need more powder/load work with faster burning powders to get good velocity...It typically loses 150-200 fps. vs. 20" and longer barrel lengths. The 20" bbl. length w/ a std. contour, rifle gas system is the most popular configuration for the 6.5mm PCC round thus far. My personal preferance is a 20" or longer barrel, as weight and OAL does not bother me as I'm a big buy and I don't mind the additional size weight. A few customers have ordered a 24" bbl. w/ a heavy/bull barrel for competition work etc. Thanks. |
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Originally Posted By marinesg1012:
How about 18 inch target crown barrels with Middy gas? Finally got my 18" mid gas back. I have a Noveske switchblock on it. Hope to do some loading and testing soon. Will put the switchblock on something else if it turns out that it wont cycle suppressed with the tighter setting. Still probably a few months wait before I get the stamp for the rifle suppressor. |
"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest." Gandhi, An Autobiography, p. 446 (Beacon Press paperback edition)
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Originally Posted By jasonusvi:
Originally Posted By marinesg1012:
How about 18 inch target crown barrels with Middy gas? Finally got my 18" mid gas back. I have a Noveske switchblock on it. Hope to do some loading and testing soon. Will put the switchblock on something else if it turns out that it wont cycle suppressed with the tighter setting. Still probably a few months wait before I get the stamp for the rifle suppressor. Sounds great Jason, just let me know if you want to get your chamber throated for the longer VLD rounds (I'll do it for free). Can't wait till you have a chance to give us a range report. Thanks. |
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Thanks Dr69er... might take you up on that. I might get a chance this weekend to chrono a few of the rounds you hooked me up with a while back.
LMT MRP CQB upper. Barrel is an 18" mid gas 3R polygonal BHW 6.5PCC with a Noveske switchblock and 51T hider. 
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"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest." Gandhi, An Autobiography, p. 446 (Beacon Press paperback edition)
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Originally Posted By jasonusvi:
Thanks Dr69er... might take you up on that. I might get a chance this weekend to chrono a few of the rounds you hooked me up with a while back. LMT MRP CQB upper. Barrel is an 18" mid gas 3R polygonal BHW 6.5PCC with a Noveske switchblock and 51T hider. http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/xx166/jasonusvi/pcc1.jpg http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/xx166/jasonusvi/pcc3.jpg Anytime Jason, just give me a call or email me...Sweet looking set-up w/ the LMT Upper... 
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I have not yet made it to the range but just sized and trimmed my first 5 cases. Couple of observations / questions.
1. The shoulder does not seem to be sizing as steep as on the samples you gave me but the unloaded cases chamber and eject fine. Shoulder appears slightly steeper following test chamber and ejection. Will check but not sure yet if loaded ammo will eject properly as the projectiles look like they might get pinched... perhaps a non issue. 2. Not surprising when you think about it but it also chambers and ejects loaded 5.56 without issue. Seems you could fireform by shooting loaded 5.56 ammo if it didn't harm the barrel to have 5.56 projectiles bouncing down the 6.5 bore...possibly even use 5.56 at CQB ranges? Possible? Harmful? Thanks |
"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest." Gandhi, An Autobiography, p. 446 (Beacon Press paperback edition)
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Originally Posted By jasonusvi:
I have not yet made it to the range but just sized and trimmed my first 5 cases. Couple of observations / questions. 1. The shoulder does not seem to be sizing as steep as on the samples you gave me but the unloaded cases chamber and eject fine. Shoulder appears slightly steeper following test chamber and ejection. Will check but not sure yet if loaded ammo will eject properly as the projectiles look like they might get pinched... perhaps a non issue. 2. Not surprising when you think about it but it also chambers and ejects loaded 5.56 without issue. Seems you could fireform by shooting loaded 5.56 ammo if it didn't harm the barrel to have 5.56 projectiles bouncing down the 6.5 bore...possibly even use 5.56 at CQB ranges? Possible? Harmful? Thanks Jason the cases (loads) you have were loaded from the original 40 degree shoulder angle brass, the CH4D dies have the correct 32 degree shoulder...but don't worry It will fire safely in the 6.5mm PCC chamber (I tried It in both chambers). I would not reccomend fireforming cases by shooting 5.56mm NATO down the 6.5mm PCC chamber...Just use full power PCC loads then save the fireformed cases, clean them then reload the fireformed cases, they should give you an extra 1.5 - 2.1 grs. of extra powder. ETA: Jason let me know when you want the chamber throated so you can use some of the longer VLD rounds...Its gratis. http://illirianengineeringc.ipage.com/ |
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Should be getting my barrel and dies soon. Vic mention best powder so far was H335 in general. Longer barrels slightly faster powder, shorter barrel slightly slower powder situation.
Wanted to ask others what powders they are using along with barrel length and weight of your bullets. Looking for real world data if you will. Any info like it's awesome or it sucks would be appreciated. I intend to use mostly Hornady A-Max 105 gr and Lapua 123 gr for now. Thanks |
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Originally Posted By Lakemoor:
Should be getting my barrel and dies soon. Vic mention best powder so far was H335 in general. Longer barrels slightly faster powder, shorter barrel slightly slower powder situation. Wanted to ask others what powders they are using along with barrel length and weight of your bullets. Looking for real world data if you will. Any info like it's awesome or it sucks would be appreciated. I intend to use mostly Hornady A-Max 105 gr and Lapua 123 gr for now. Thanks Shouldn't this be the opposite? |
Advanced techniques are the basics mastered.
Excellence is an art won by training and habit. We are what we repeatedly do. -- Aristotle
Pistol/Shotgun/Rifle Instructor
Sig/Remington/RRA/Sabre Armorer
Excellence is an art won by training and habit. We are what we repeatedly do. -- Aristotle
Pistol/Shotgun/Rifle Instructor
Sig/Remington/RRA/Sabre Armorer
|
Originally Posted By Altair:
Originally Posted By Lakemoor:
Should be getting my barrel and dies soon. Vic mention best powder so far was H335 in general. Longer barrels slightly faster powder, shorter barrel slightly slower powder situation. Wanted to ask others what powders they are using along with barrel length and weight of your bullets. Looking for real world data if you will. Any info like it's awesome or it sucks would be appreciated. I intend to use mostly Hornady A-Max 105 gr and Lapua 123 gr for now. Thanks Shouldn't this be the opposite? +1 ... Hope to finally get around to testing loads on mine soon. |
"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." 1791 Dec. 23. (Thomas Jefferson to Archibald Stuart)
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My error. Should have checked my brain before I posted.
Longer barrel slower powder. Shorter barrel faster powder. In general I have a 22" coming. Probally start off with H335 as that's what I have on hand and I'll check some powders with slightly slower burning properites. Lot of testing and experimenting for a new round. I guess that's half the fun. |
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Originally Posted By Dr69er:
Originally Posted By Lakemoor:
I'm getting excited to receive my barrel. Black Friday was very expensive. Magazines like the Heckler & Koch 416 (HK Germany) Steel Marine AR-15 Mags, and the PRI 223 Rem/5.56 NATO that have long COL's of 2.302" Also, the longer throat helps lower chamber pressures and leads to higher velocity capability, all pluses. The throat is lengthened to the customers needs like a 123gr. SMK @ 2.298"... The current throat was cut a bit shorter than spec by the reamer manufacturer,as a result COL was between 2.258"-2.270" depending on the projectile. I am throating the chamber with a specific load so it just touches the lands of the rifling... So if you want to use std. mil-spec mags @ 2,275" or so the jump would be about .015-.020" etc. http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx65/Doc69er/P1010048.jpg The HK (Heckler & Koch, Germany) 416 Steel Marine AR-15 Mag has the best COL of any Quality AR Magazine I has seen so far. Here is a pic above. Damn, that is nice! |
| Finally have 25 cases prepped and primed. May load some 85 grain sierras over RL7 or H322. Suggestions for starting and max? |
"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." 1791 Dec. 23. (Thomas Jefferson to Archibald Stuart)
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