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Originally Posted By USAF655:
Originally Posted By 32E3H:
Originally Posted By VentanaRider:
The PJ's have a history of being able to source their own equipment. My dad was a career PJ and the individual units where at times allowed to purchase their own gear (tents, packs, sunglasses, etc). For what they do standard off the rack military issue isn't always effective. I wouldn't think weapons would qualify, but they do qualify as special forces. I guess you mean special operations. SF is Army only. Actually, if you decide to, you can follow the pipeline as special forces with other branches. A lot of TACPs and CCTs go on tours with other branches than the Air Force itself. No. what he is saying is they are not Special Forces, neither are seals, marine recon, etc- they are special OPERATIONS. Special Forces refers only to US Army Special Forces ('Green Berets') in the United States. Other countries are different maybe, but thats what it is here. |
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Originally Posted By garretts1776:
Originally Posted By USAF655:
Originally Posted By 32E3H:
Originally Posted By VentanaRider:
The PJ's have a history of being able to source their own equipment. My dad was a career PJ and the individual units where at times allowed to purchase their own gear (tents, packs, sunglasses, etc). For what they do standard off the rack military issue isn't always effective. I wouldn't think weapons would qualify, but they do qualify as special forces. I guess you mean special operations. SF is Army only. Actually, if you decide to, you can follow the pipeline as special forces with other branches. A lot of TACPs and CCTs go on tours with other branches than the Air Force itself. No. what he is saying is they are not Special Forces, neither are seals, marine recon, etc- they are special OPERATIONS. Special Forces refers only to US Army Special Forces ('Green Berets') in the United States. Other countries are different maybe, but thats what it is here. SOF would be proper terminology |
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Seeing these Vital-2 pictures make me kinda wish I hadn't sold mine. Then I remember I sold it for a $300 profit a month before they started flooding the market. 
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Please, call me Joe
There is definitely something perverse about two men who carry guns 24/7 being so happy that others are giving theirs up. -happycynic
Jack Ryan 2016
There is definitely something perverse about two men who carry guns 24/7 being so happy that others are giving theirs up. -happycynic
Jack Ryan 2016
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Originally Posted By hatexoc:
Anyone ever figure out if these are standard m4 gov profile or socom profile barrels? I have an extra bravo socom barrel and t-1 that im thinking of turning into one of these. I would guess that the vast majority of actual M4A1s are RO921HBs. The Air Force was using a lot of GUU-5/Ps mocked up to look like M4A1s in 1995-2001 when the RO921 was floating around, and didn't start heavily investing in M4A1s until after the barrel profile change. We had an Air Force bubba attached as an individual augmentee who showed up with an "off the rack" M4A1 that he'd been issued by the CCT unit at his home station because no one else had an M4 or GUU-5/P he could deploy with. It was a box-stock M4A1 with double heat shield handguards and removeable carry handle. ~Augee |
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Originally Posted By Augee:
Originally Posted By hatexoc:
Anyone ever figure out if these are standard m4 gov profile or socom profile barrels? I have an extra bravo socom barrel and t-1 that im thinking of turning into one of these. I would guess that the vast majority of actual M4A1s are RO921HBs. The Air Force was using a lot of GUU-5/Ps mocked up to look like M4A1s in 1995-2001 when the RO921 was floating around, and didn't start heavily investing in M4A1s until after the barrel profile change. We had an Air Force bubba attached as an individual augmentee who showed up with an "off the rack" M4A1 that he'd been issued by the CCT unit at his home station because no one else had an M4 or GUU-5/P he could deploy with. It was a box-stock M4A1 with double heat shield handguards and removeable carry handle. ~Augee Beats the M16A2's we get issued over seas. |
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Originally Posted By Augee:
Edited for enhanced clarity.
Originally Posted By hatexoc:
Anyone ever figure out if these are standard m4 gov profile or socom profile barrels? I have an extra bravo socom barrel and t-1 that im thinking of turning into one of these. I would guess that the vast majority of actual M4A1s are RO921HBs. The Air Force was using a lot of GUU-5/Ps mocked up to look like cobbled together to work similarly to M4A1s in 1995-2001 when the RO921 was floating around, and didn't start heavily investing in M4A1s until after the barrel profile change. We had an Air Force bubba attached as an individual augmentee who showed up with an "off the rack" M4A1 that he'd been issued by the CCT unit at his home station because no one else had an M4 or GUU-5/P he could deploy with. It was a box-stock M4A1 with double heat shield handguards and removeable carry handle. ~Augee Up until GWOT, the Air Force got scraps and leavings to support their small arms program (admittedly because most of the top level brass were pilots that didn't like firearms and didn't think much of the contribution men on the ground with rifles could and must provide...), and it wasn't until about 1999 that USAF Security Forces Academy actually got M4s to train the new troops with. Ten years prior, in Panama, SPs had the most motley congregation of rifle-like firearms imaginable, often with what appeared to be very early M16 model lowers "upgraded" and repaired to keep running to meet the mission as well as possible. I think modifying the existing stock of (often older than their operators) rifles and carbines in the inventory to try to keep up with interoperability and mission requirements was an example of CATM ingenuity. Sorry for the derail, but too many people seem to trash Air Force troops and their "odd" weapons without understanding the background (not you, Augee) that now and then I have to pipe up with this trivia... Please return to the regularly scheduled discussion... 
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"--you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."
Heinlein
Heinlein
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Originally Posted By GHPorter:
Originally Posted By Augee:
Edited for enhanced clarity.
Originally Posted By hatexoc:
Anyone ever figure out if these are standard m4 gov profile or socom profile barrels? I have an extra bravo socom barrel and t-1 that im thinking of turning into one of these. I would guess that the vast majority of actual M4A1s are RO921HBs. The Air Force was using a lot of GUU-5/Ps mocked up to look like cobbled together to work similarly to M4A1s in 1995-2001 when the RO921 was floating around, and didn't start heavily investing in M4A1s until after the barrel profile change. We had an Air Force bubba attached as an individual augmentee who showed up with an "off the rack" M4A1 that he'd been issued by the CCT unit at his home station because no one else had an M4 or GUU-5/P he could deploy with. It was a box-stock M4A1 with double heat shield handguards and removeable carry handle. ~Augee Up until GWOT, the Air Force got scraps and leavings to support their small arms program (admittedly because most of the top level brass were pilots that didn't like firearms and didn't think much of the contribution men on the ground with rifles could and must provide...), and it wasn't until about 1999 that USAF Security Forces Academy actually got M4s to train the new troops with. Ten years prior, in Panama, SPs had the most motley congregation of rifle-like firearms imaginable, often with what appeared to be very early M16 model lowers "upgraded" and repaired to keep running to meet the mission as well as possible. I think modifying the existing stock of (often older than their operators) rifles and carbines in the inventory to try to keep up with interoperability and mission requirements was an example of CATM ingenuity. Sorry for the derail, but too many people seem to trash Air Force troops and their "odd" weapons without understanding the background (not you, Augee) that now and then I have to pipe up with this trivia... Please return to the regularly scheduled discussion...
TBH, as a USAF member myself, I understand where they could come from. In Iraq in 06 and 07, my F-16C did the talking, but now we have meaner guns with A-10C's. Mind you, I'm no pilot, just a lowly mechanic. |
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Originally Posted By Tmender03:
TBH, as a USAF member myself, I understand where they could come from. In Iraq in 06 and 07, my F-16C did the talking, but now we have meaner guns with A-10C's. Mind you, I'm no pilot, just a lowly mechanic. It wasn't until the mid-1980s that both Army and Air Force finally publicly admitted that there were not enough Soldiers to provide ground defense for air bases, and only then did Air Force begin to take seriously the idea of Air Base Ground Defense. To quote a 12th AF general, "it doesn't do you any good to knock down every MiG in the sky if you find the enemy tank commander having breakfast in your O-club when you get back to base". But as I said, the brass did not budget and plan for SF to protect you and your flightline while you were turning your F-16 around for another sortie until the '98-99 fiscal year timeframe. Until then, it was armorer ingenuity and stubbornness that kept our guys armed. (And as a SNCO from 1996 through 2004, I NEVER got more than "familiarization" training with the M16, despite being in an AFSC that was literally outside the wire as much as inside it,..They still don't like guns in the Air Force wing of the Pentagon.) |
"--you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."
Heinlein
Heinlein
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This is consistent with my [non-Air Force] experiences. I was trying to be diplomatic about it.
Our AF guy thought himself a pretty sharp tack that he thought to go ask the CCTs for an M4 instead of getting the M16A2 all of the other AF IAs had. It was way easier to haul from the chow hall to the TOC.
From a historical standpoint, the GAU/GUU-5 series make for some very interesting mixes and configurations. I had an AF 2LT that needed to catch a ride somewhere bring his GUU-5/P - an old commercially marked "M16A1" that more than likely started life as an R653 but had had the barrel swapped with a 1/7 lightweight barrel. Still had a two position vinyl acetate stock and everything. It just felt completely different than my M4. Wouldn't've traded, but it was fun to see. ~Augee |
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Originally Posted By BravoSierra:
Ya'll, I'm looking at these pics and wondering. There are two types of PJ's, SOCOM and ACC. May account for some of the variation seen in the issue and load out. Excellent point. The host command obviously has a lot of input to what all of their forces carry...and SOCOM has a lot of specialized accessories that ACC isn't going to have or want to buy into. Hint: the number of current Air Force officers at MAJCOM level that have the Combat Infantry badge can probably be counted on two hands... (I had a commander with the CIB from Vietnam, and that made a big difference in his attitude about individual small arms and proficiency). |
"--you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."
Heinlein
Heinlein
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Originally Posted By BravoSierra:
Ya'll, I'm looking at these pics and wondering. There are two types of PJ's, SOCOM and ACC. May account for some of the variation seen in the issue and load out. Forgive my ignorance, ACC? |
Please, call me Joe
There is definitely something perverse about two men who carry guns 24/7 being so happy that others are giving theirs up. -happycynic
Jack Ryan 2016
There is definitely something perverse about two men who carry guns 24/7 being so happy that others are giving theirs up. -happycynic
Jack Ryan 2016
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Originally Posted By TCBA_Joe:
Originally Posted By BravoSierra:
Ya'll, I'm looking at these pics and wondering. There are two types of PJ's, SOCOM and ACC. May account for some of the variation seen in the issue and load out. Forgive my ignorance, ACC? Air Combat Command. A lot of reserve PJs under this |
Politicians are the same all over. They promise to build a bridge even where there is no river.
-Nikita Khrushchev
Posts dictated but not read.
-Nikita Khrushchev
Posts dictated but not read.
Nice to see photo evidence of Omega rails in use. I've been told over and over that they aren't used,  though I have seen them on many occasions.
For the record, while not a PJ, our unit used GUU5P's up until last June, where I found myself out at the range qualing on the m4. Needless to say I miss my slick side AR-15 carbine with happy switch. 
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Originally Posted By stoner01:
Wife tried to make me a clone http://i1251.photobucket.com/albums/hh541/stoner011/photo.jpg I wish my wife bought me gun stuff... Then again, after working at a dealer for a couple of years, and trying to help wives/girlfriends buy things for their significant others, I briefed my wife never to buy me a gun related item "as a surprise" because I'm too damned particular to begin with, and she'd either end up getting the wrong thing, or overpaying.
So now she just gives me permission.
~Augee |
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Originally Posted By Augee:
Originally Posted By stoner01:
Wife tried to make me a clone http://i1251.photobucket.com/albums/hh541/stoner011/photo.jpg I wish my wife bought me gun stuff... Then again, after working at a dealer for a couple of years, and trying to help wives/girlfriends buy things for their significant others, I briefed my wife never to buy me a gun related item "as a surprise" because I'm too damned particular to begin with, and she'd either end up getting the wrong thing, or overpaying.
So now she just gives me permission.
~Augee She had help. She took that pic into our local gear store and they helped her out. But yeah, Im the same way, she just says yae or nay. |
RIP SSgt Jason A. Decker 11-6-09
"The only thing that stops a crazy person with a weapon is a sane person with a better sight picture"
"The only thing that stops a crazy person with a weapon is a sane person with a better sight picture"
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Originally Posted By Lepus:
With the new SF3P and SFMB 5.56, will AFSOC PJ's switch to the new muzzle devices or stick with the ol 212A and/or MB556K?? I know that there is a 4 prong version available only for the military, but AFSOC guys kinda do their own things......thanks for the help.....looking to build a clone
Anyone? |
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Originally Posted By Lepus:
Originally Posted By Lepus:
With the new SF3P and SFMB 5.56, will AFSOC PJ's switch to the new muzzle devices or stick with the ol 212A and/or MB556K?? I know that there is a 4 prong version available only for the military, but AFSOC guys kinda do their own things......thanks for the help.....looking to build a clone
Anyone? Unless there is someone here that deals directly with AFSOC acquisition, there is no way for anyone to answer this question. More than likely with current budgets, they will stick to what they have until it breaks and then buy whatever suits their needs next. The muzzle devices are relevant only to the point where they support the suppressor system selected. ~Augee |
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Originally Posted By Augee:
Originally Posted By Lepus:
Originally Posted By Lepus:
With the new SF3P and SFMB 5.56, will AFSOC PJ's switch to the new muzzle devices or stick with the ol 212A and/or MB556K?? I know that there is a 4 prong version available only for the military, but AFSOC guys kinda do their own things......thanks for the help.....looking to build a clone
Anyone? Unless there is someone here that deals directly with AFSOC acquisition, there is no way for anyone to answer this question. More than likely with current budgets, they will stick to what they have until it breaks and then buy whatever suits their needs next. The muzzle devices are relevant only to the point where they support the suppressor system selected. ~Augee I'd go farther. We'd need to have input from someone in the acquisition side of support for AFSOC, and to provide that, they would have to probably violate confidentiality agreements, if not actually disclose classified information. This is an excellent item to theorize about, but "what they're going with" as a change on any future timescale is almost certainly not for public consumption. |
"--you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."
Heinlein
Heinlein
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Originally Posted By GHPorter:
Originally Posted By Augee:
Originally Posted By Lepus:
Originally Posted By Lepus:
With the new SF3P and SFMB 5.56, will AFSOC PJ's switch to the new muzzle devices or stick with the ol 212A and/or MB556K?? I know that there is a 4 prong version available only for the military, but AFSOC guys kinda do their own things......thanks for the help.....looking to build a clone
Anyone? Unless there is someone here that deals directly with AFSOC acquisition, there is no way for anyone to answer this question. More than likely with current budgets, they will stick to what they have until it breaks and then buy whatever suits their needs next. The muzzle devices are relevant only to the point where they support the suppressor system selected. ~Augee I'd go farther. We'd need to have input from someone in the acquisition side of support for AFSOC, and to provide that, they would have to probably violate confidentiality agreements, if not actually disclose classified information. This is an excellent item to theorize about, but "what they're going with" as a change on any future timescale is almost certainly not for public consumption. That's what I thought. . .oh well
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Depends on the unit. Some use the M3X or WMX200, some use surefire scout lights/x300s etc.
The ones I remember local units using were surefire 900 series, and then they upgraded to the surefire scout lights. |
Politicians are the same all over. They promise to build a bridge even where there is no river.
-Nikita Khrushchev
-Nikita Khrushchev
| I know the approved ACC lists had the M3x and 900 series for Security Forces. Most UDMs will go off the ACC list. Im sure some of the more AFSOC units ( As opposed to the guard units) would probably go with either the M3xs or Scout lights as part of the SOCOM package. |
RIP SSgt Jason A. Decker 11-6-09
"The only thing that stops a crazy person with a weapon is a sane person with a better sight picture"
"The only thing that stops a crazy person with a weapon is a sane person with a better sight picture"
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Originally Posted By AMMOTECH:
http://www.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/photos/110708-F-DE377-006.JPG http://www.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/photos/100601-F-3745E-574.JPG . The above post from page 5 inspired me to build this AFSOC clone. It takes queues from both the top and bottom picture, and I am really happy with this setup. Currently it's my go-to carbine. 
It's basically a M4MWS clone (M4RAS, M68CCO, SOPMOD stock) with the SU-233 weapon light (SOPMOD Block 2). |
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Originally Posted By GHPorter:
Originally Posted By TurbineGuy:
There are a lot of security forces clones in this thread. Maybe they think they rate it.  ??? Not sure what you mean by that statement... It's thread is meant for USAF SPECIAL OPERATIONS clones, not USAF Security Forces clones, which aren't the same thing, no matter how much they wish they were. That's what I meant. Some can't seem to understand that. |
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Originally Posted By TurbineGuy:
Originally Posted By GHPorter:
Originally Posted By TurbineGuy:
There are a lot of security forces clones in this thread. Maybe they think they rate it. ??? Not sure what you mean by that statement... It's thread is meant for USAF SPECIAL OPERATIONS clones, not USAF Security Forces clones, which aren't the same thing, no matter how much they wish they were. That's what I meant. Some can't seem to understand that. I wouldn't mind you pointing that out to people gently if you actually contributed something to ANY thread you posted in... but alas, you do not! |
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Originally Posted By rbhoover:
Originally Posted By TurbineGuy:
Originally Posted By GHPorter:
Originally Posted By TurbineGuy:
There are a lot of security forces clones in this thread. Maybe they think they rate it. ??? Not sure what you mean by that statement... It's thread is meant for USAF SPECIAL OPERATIONS clones, not USAF Security Forces clones, which aren't the same thing, no matter how much they wish they were. That's what I meant. Some can't seem to understand that. I wouldn't mind you pointing that out to people gently if you actually contributed something to ANY thread you posted in... but alas, you do not!
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Originally Posted By barny:
Originally Posted By rbhoover:
Originally Posted By TurbineGuy:
Originally Posted By GHPorter:
Originally Posted By TurbineGuy:
There are a lot of security forces clones in this thread. Maybe they think they rate it. ??? Not sure what you mean by that statement... It's thread is meant for USAF SPECIAL OPERATIONS clones, not USAF Security Forces clones, which aren't the same thing, no matter how much they wish they were. That's what I meant. Some can't seem to understand that. I wouldn't mind you pointing that out to people gently if you actually contributed something to ANY thread you posted in... but alas, you do not! 
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Originally Posted By AMMOTECH:
http://www.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/photos/110708-F-DE377-006.JPG http://www.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/photos/100601-F-3745E-574.JPG . 2nd pic - Isn't that Matt from Inside Combat Rescue? 
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Originally Posted By Lepus:
2nd pic - Isn't that Matt from Inside Combat Rescue? Originally Posted By Lepus:
Originally Posted By AMMOTECH:
http://www.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/photos/110708-F-DE377-006.JPG http://www.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/photos/100601-F-3745E-574.JPG . 2nd pic - Isn't that Matt from Inside Combat Rescue? Looks like it. |
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PJ Guns from Combat Rescue. Intense graphic video of PJ's in action. https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=4621926754257&set=vb.440106476051475&type=2&theater |
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Thanks for sharing. I have an unbelievable respect for them and all who serve.
P Originally Posted By Lancelot:
PJ Guns from Combat Rescue. Intense graphic video of PJ's in action. https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=4621926754257&set=vb.440106476051475&type=2&theater |
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