Hello all. As the title says, I'm looking for recommendations for good HD ammo for 5.56/223 and 300BLK. I have hornady subsonic 190gr for 300BLK and Fiocchi 50gr VMAX for 223. However, I'm wondering if this is sufficient for my purposes. My main priority is over penetration, which is why I chose what I chose for each caliber. For the builds I'm using 5.56/223 (12.5" Geissele upper with Griffin MK2 lower) 300BLK (8.5" Criterion 300BLK). Any recommendation/criticisms/etc. is welcome. Don't know a lot of the different bullet tech but been watching videos and reading. Thanks.

I am by no means an ammo expert but have seen enough videos that i would not use Varmint Bullets in 556 for HD, without having knowledge on that specific load. A lot of them lack penetration.

I use 55gr Gold Dots in .223

You are absolutely correct. 223 polymer tip ammo lacks the penetration required for Duty/Defense use.
However in 300blk they meet the minimum requirement for penetration.

Speer Gold Dot in 223 is something I've read to be like some of the best ammo for HD. However, finding it is another issue. Almost impossible to find, even on AmmoSeek.

This was my main source of information:

If you’re having trouble finding gold dot check out Federals 62gr Fusion MSR. Same if not identical round with the same performance. It’s sealed like Gold Dot but is loaded in brass case instead of nickel plated brass.
If over penetration is a concern for you there are much better options than Vmax.
Molon is a fantastic source of information for ammo selection check out any of his post here on the forums.

Can't speak for .300 blk, but don't overlook good 'ol M193 for 5.56, especially if overpenetration is a concern. M193 tends to break up through barriers such as walls, but is still very effective for defensive use, moreso than varmint rounds. Easy to find too, at least before the latest ammo panic.

For 300blk...

110gr Varmageddon or 110gr Vmax

I have both of those for HD loads   Those are about as good as you are going to get for any mainstream HD ammo if you are worried about over penetration.   They will still go through plenty of stuff.

Thanks all for the input. I'll look into the federal fusion MSR. Will also look into vmax for 300BLK. Any thoughts on Liberty Civil Defense and Lehigh Defense? Thank you.

Take a look at the Nosler 64gr Bonded Defense ammo.  Pretty similar to the FBI round

Nosler 64gr Bonded



I've used Lehigh's Controlled Chaos on a few animals and it did well.  It's not as impressive in gel but does good in animal tissue.

FWIW, AAC has a 110gr VMAX load for $.60 per round that I use as a practice round, and Hornady Black has a load using that same bullet (at double the cost) that I use as a defensive round.

Also, Speer Gold Dot 75gr works great out of short barrels. No idea about availability though.

is the aac stuff good?

I've only shot 350 rounds of it so far, but I haven't had any issues. AAC ammo is fairly new and had some issues early on, so I keep a couple hundred rounds of Hornady Black as a defensive ammo stash and shoot up the AAC for practice. Even a mag or two of the more proven Hornady is worth a few extra bucks IMO.

The AAC 110gr VMAX chrono'ed at 2122 fps out of my 9" Spear LT barrel and shot 2 MOA 5-shot groups at 50 and 100 yards.

Awesome. I'll check it out. Thanks for the information.

https://www.ar15.com/forums/AR-15/AR15-Ammo-Forum-FAQ/16-503947/

https://www.ar15.com/forums/AR-15/AR15-com-YouTube-ballistic-gel-tests-and-suggestions-updated-10-12-18-/16-719103/

After seeing what a 55gr. Vmax has done on a few coyotes, I would have ZERO issues with using it for home defense.  I really don’t think it will bounce off a BG.  Sometimes I believe we tend to overthink issues.

It isn't about bouncing off, it is about being able to penetrate deep enough reach vitals and incapacitate regardless of odd angles, clothing etc.

V-max/Varmageddon works in 300blk because is is a much heavier bullet going at a slower speed, so it does not fragment as quickly.  The core still penetrates to 14 inches and is usually retains close to half of the original weight.  

55gr Vmax will over fragment due to velocity, and may not penetrate deep enough to hit vitals if at an off angle shot.  (Think shooting through on out stretched arm).

It’s been documented for decades that varmint rounds are terrible for Duty/Defense use. I have killed lots of small and medium game with 50-60gr vmax but that’s hunting the target stands still and isn’t trying to kill me or take a shot at me. Heck even with proper shot placement on a deer the 60 gr doesn’t have enough ass to do more then gory shallow wounds.

No doubt there are better projectiles out there for certain applications but the FBI protocol may not be optimal for home defense situations where over penetration/ricochets in a crowded neighborhood is a significant concern.  I would agree that a round that turns to dust after 3 inches of penetration is inadequate.  However in addition to the penetration of extremities concern that was mentioned, is another concern that may be being over looked and that is a torso shot that is not well centered but strikes near the edge of the torso where there is only 4-5 inches of penetration before it exits.  In this case a quick energy dump may be more desirable than a load with a 4 inch “neck”.  If a bullet like a 55gr Vmax or a 60gr. NBT does strike an arm (for example) before traveling further, the quicker energy dump will likely take that arm out of the fight and still do considerable damage.

Everything is a trade off.  One must consider their own situation instead of considering the FBI protocol (as good as it is) as an absolute.

First of all, every sane deer hunter knows that even the best 5.56 round is not adequate for shooting a deer.  Yes it will kill one but it really is not very ethical.  Second, to be blunt, humans die a lot easier than deer, Third when deer hunting you are not worried about a child in the next house 50 feet away.  As mentioned, everything is a trade off.  A quick expanding bullet that will give 10-12 inches of penetration is probably not a bad choice in a home defense situation, but I would agree that one with only 3-4 inches of penetration is insufficient.  

For penetration/over penetration look up ol' Painless box o truth.

As long as you have been here I am surprised you haven’t read the ammo pinned defensive ammo thread. Seriously why would you handy cap yourself with a load known to fail in actual documented shootings? If you’re afraid of over penetration and insist on using a non barrier load why not choose something like the 77gr TMK, 75gr BTHP or 64gr Hi-Shok/ Power point. They all have a great documented history of stopping serious threats.

The 62 grain/64 grain Gold Dots are excellent loads for duty/self-defense.  The terminal ballistic properties of these projectiles approaches that of the 62 grain Trophy Bonded Bear Claw and the Gold Dots are far more consistently accurate/precise than the 62 grain TBBC.  

When hand-loaded, the 62 grain Gold Dot is the most accurate bonded-soft point that I've tested and the factory loaded ammunition is some of the most accurate factory loaded bonded soft-points that I've tested.  As mentioned by another member, the bullet used in the 62 grain Gold Dot load is the same bullet found in Federal's 62 grain Fusion and Fusion MSR loads.

10-shot group of hand-loaded 62 grain Gold Dot . . .




Speer LE 64 Grain Gold Dot:  Velocity, Accuracy and Terminal Ballistics






Speer has expanded its line of Gold Dot ammunition to include rifle ammunition in 223 Remington. The ammunition examined for this post is loaded with a 64 grain bonded soft point bullet that has less exposed lead at the meplat than Federal’s 62 grain Trophy Bonded Bear Claw bullet that is used in their LE223T2 load.

The 64 grain Gold Dot bullet has a boat-tail and a cannelure. This load is charged with a ball powder that according to Speer is a “flash suppressed propellant.” The primers are sealed and crimped in place, however, there is no sealant at the case mouth.


















The 64 grain Gold Dot bullet has a nominal length of 0.825” and a specific gravity of 10.0. A barrel with a 1:9” twist should stabilize it quite well.





From ATK’s website:

“Like their handgun counterparts, the Gold Dot rifle bullets are constructed using Gold Dot technology. The process of joining the jacket and core one molecule at a time eliminates the potential for the leading cause of bullet failure—jacket/core separation. It also ensures impressive weight retention through barriers as tough as auto-glass.”

Manufacturers typically use bolt-action “test barrels” to obtain their advertised velocities for their ammunition. These test barrels are usually 24” long and often have minimum spec SAAMI chambers. These factors combine to give ammunition higher advertised velocities than the velocities that we actually obtain from our AR-15s. Also, due to its gas operating system, the AR-15 looses 20 fps or more of velocity compared to an equivalent barrel without a gas system.

Sierra test barrels

Shooting Times 2009



The 64 grain Gold Dot load was chronographed from a 20” Colt M16A2 barrel, a 16” Colt light-weight barrel and a 14.5” Colt M4A1 barrel. All of the barrels have chrome lining, NATO chambers and 1:7” twists. 10-shot strings of the load were fired over an Oehler 35-P chronograph with “proof screen” technology. All velocities listed are muzzle velocities as calculated from the instrumental velocities using Oehler’s Ballistic Explorer software program.

Each round was single-loaded and cycled into the chamber from a magazine fitted with a single-load follower. The bolt locked-back after each shot allowing the chamber to cool in between each shot. This technique was used to mitigate the possible influence of “chamber-soak” on velocity data. Each new shot was fired in a consistent manner after hitting the bolt release. Atmospheric conditions were monitored and recorded using a Kestrel 4000 Pocket Weather Tracker.











Accuracy testing was conducted following my usual protocol of firing 10-shot groups from a concrete bench at a distance of 100 yards using my 24” Krieger barreled AR-15. This barrel has a 1:7.7” twist. The free-float rail of the rifle rested in a Sinclair Windage Benchrest and the PRS stock was stabilized in a Protektor bunny-ear rear bag. Wind conditions were monitored using a Wind Probe. Sighting was performed using a Leupold Competition Series scope with a mirage shade. The scope was adjusted to be parallax free at 100 yards.










Prior to testing the 64 grain Gold Dot load, I fired a 10-shot control group using hand-loaded 69 grain Sierra MatchKings. That group had an extreme spread of 0.86”. Three 10-shot groups of the Speer LE 64 grain Gold Dots fired in a row had extreme spreads that measured:

1.11”

0.91”

1.30”

for a 10-shot average extreme spread of 1.12”! I over-layed those three groups on each other using RSI Shooting Lab to form a 30-shot composite group. The composite group had a mean radius of 0.33”.





For comparison, previous testing of the Black Hills blue box 75 grain MHP load fired from the same set-up as above produced three 10-shot groups at 100 yards that had an average extreme spread of 1.14” and a mean radius of 0.37” for the 30-shot composite group.



Terminal Ballistic Properties of the 64 grain Gold Dot

Thanks to the efforts of Dr. G.K. Roberts, we now have some excellent answers to the questions of terminal ballistics pertaining to the Speer 64 grain Gold Dot LE load. The results shown below indicate the penetration of this load in bare ballistic gelatin as well as after having passed through auto-glass. Auto (safety) glass is one of the most difficult barriers (of those commonly tested) for 5.56mm/.223 Remington loads to penetrate and still perform adequately in ballistic gelatin.








Comparisons.




….

Federal 62 Grain Fusion vs Federal 62 Grain Fusion MSR vs Speer LE 62 Grain Gold Dot






The muzzle velocities shown in the tables below were obtained back-to-back during the same chronograph session using recent lots of all three of the Fusion/Gold Dot loads chrongographed.

Atmospheric Conditions

Temperature:  73 degrees F (plus or minus one degree)
Barometric Pressure:  29.68 inches of Hg
Humidity:  62%
Altitude:  950 feet above sea level  



Muzzle velocities from a 20” Colt M16A2 barrel with a NATO chamber, chrome lining and a 1:7” twist.







Muzzle velocities from a 14.5 Noveske N4 light barrel with a NATO chamber, chrome lining and a 1:7’ twist.






10-shot groups were fired from one of my precision AR-15s with a Lothar-Walther barrel with a 223 Wylde chamber and a 1:8” twist.  The groups were fired from the bench at a distance of 100 yards with the same sight settings on the scope for each of the three groups.






















....

Humans are not coyotes and a lightweight polymer tipped varmint bullet (the clue is in the name) is a poor choice for a defensive load.  The 55 grain V-MAX doesn’t even make the minimum penetration depth in properly prepared and validated 10% bare ordnance gel, let alone after any type of intervening barrier, which can include the radius or humerus in the outstretched upper extremity of an armed attacker intent on killing you.





An armed attacker intent on causing you death or grave bodily harm isn’t going to just stand out in the open, squarely facing you and hold perfectly still with his arms at his side and allow you to put shot after shot into him, all the while not shooting back at you.

While the average anteroposterior diameter of the upper thorax of an adult American male is approximately 9.5”, gun fights tend to be rather unpredictable by nature so they’re not always going to occur under the circumstances that Internet Commandos seems to assume that they will and you might just need more penetration than that 9.5”.  

If a bullet has to penetrate the aggressor’s right arm before continuing to travel into the thorax of the aggressor, (say from a right lateral shot while the bad guy is trying to exit a vehicle in order to kill you) you’re going to need, on average, 12” of penetration to perforate the heart; more penetration of you want to pass through the left ventricle.  This is why the FBI’s penetration requirement is 12” to 18”.







During the infamous 1986 FBI Miami Shootout, one of the opening shots in the gunfight fired by FBI Special Agent Dove hit the murderer Michael Platt in the right arm, continued into his thorax, but stopped just short of Platt’s heart; due to the inadequate penetration of the 9mm 115 grain Winchester SilverTip ammunition that was issued at the time.  A deeper penetrating round would have ruptured Platt’s heart.  

This one shot ruptured the brachial blood vessels of Platt’s right arm and collapsed Platt’s right lung causing a hemopneumothorax with 1300 ml of blood loss into the right lung cavity.  Even with these wounds, Platt was able to continue shooting at, hitting and causing severe wounds to additional FBI agents; all because of a bullet that failed to penetrate a minimum of 12”.  

From Dr GK Roberts:

“Based on the LE agency and correctional facility shootings I have reviewed over the years, most lightweight 40-60 gr JHP and PT loads would not be ones I would willingly want to rely on to defend myself, my family, or innocent bystanders in a lethal force encounter.”


….

I use federal fusion MSR

A 4" ballistic neck is never desirable for duty-defense ammunition.  A round that penetrates the arm and penetrates to vital organs in the thoracic cavity is what is needed for a duty/defense load.  Counting on a hit to the arm from a light-weight polymer tipped varmint bullet to cause immediate physiological incapacitation of an aggressor is nothing but wishful thinking.  Pretty much everything that you're posting has been proven false in the real world.


From Dr. G.K. Roberts:

"Most 40-60 gr PT loads were designed for varmints and offer very shallow penetration depth—surface damage can be quite impressive. Many LE agencies and correctional systems mistakenly adopted such lightweight varmint loads thinking they would reduce "over-penetration” and ricochet risks; in fact, what has been documented in numerous shootings against human adversaries is that these lightweight, high velocity loads are quite adequate for unobstructed frontal shots and most CNS shots, however it is not uncommon for them to lack sufficient penetration to reach the vital organs and vasculature in a adult male aggressor on oblique shots or if intermediate objects (including an outstretched arm) are present. As such, they are not an ideal load for personal defense.”


The peer-reviewed scientific information from actual experts in the field of terminal ballistics has shown that “energy transfer” is not a wounding mechanism for small arms fire.

MAJOR MISCONCEPTIONS:  Presumption of "Kinetic Energy Deposit" to Be a Mechanism of Wounding:

WHAT'S WRONG WITH THE WOUND BALLISTICS LITERATURE, AND WHY

by M.L. Fackler, M.D.
Letterman Army Institute of Research
Division of Military Trauma Research
Presidio of San Francisco, California 94219
Institute Report No. 239




The “Shock Wave” Myth

By Dr. Martin Fackler

Wound Ballistics Review, Winter 1991 and the Journal of Trauma, (29[10]: 1455, 1989).



Ballistic Injury

By Dr. Martin Fackler

Annals of Emergency Medicine, December 1986



Bullet Penetration

By Duncan MacPherson


.....

No doubt there are better loads than a 55gr Vmax/TAP, however I have personal experience with the effectiveness of the 55gr TAP load when I was in law enforcement (not gel shooting).  We had a robbery of a pawn shop where several BGs were shot with the TAP load.  In full disclosure, I did not personally see it, but my buddy who was an investigator was on scene and told me that one of the guys had an exit wound that in his words looked like a “brick bat” blew out his back.  If I remember correctly, two died on scene.  Now this is not a huge sample size obviously but as I mentioned in my first post I wouldn’t have any problem with that bullet.  Didn’t say it was the best.  FWIW, I have Gold Dots and 77gr IMI rounds loaded in my go-to rifles.  The 193 load and the 855 load depends on bullet yaw to do its thing.  This can be inconsistent, especially with the green tip.  The 77gr also depends on yaw to work, but I can’t argue with its track record.  There are many folks in Iraq and Afghanistan who could attest to that.

Fallacy of inconsistency.

....

62 gr .223  Gold Dots in my home defense rifle. Honestly, at room to room distances, I prefer my shotgun with 00 Flite control buck.

Molon, you are one of the most authoritative and respected voices on this website and I always appreciate and learn from your perspective but to say that energy transfer is not a major factor in wounding/stopping a threat (paraphrased) needs some explanation.  I would totally agree with that statement when it comes to handgun rounds, where loss of blood unless a CNS strike is involved, is the primary means of incapacitation, but to say that energy transfer is not an issue in a rifle round is, forgive me, preposterous!  It is the bullets deceleration through tissue creating a shock wave that results in massive blood vessel/organ disruption and thus hemorrhaging along with CNS disruption from the created shock wave IS the primary mechanism that stops a threat.  OBVIOUSLY, the underlying assumption is that the bullet penetrates deep enough to do this.

In the deer hunting world that is why in most states FMJ bullets are not allowed but soft points/NBT’s are very effective.  It is all about tissue disruption from energy transfer.

Maybe I totally misunderstood your point/position.  If so, sorry!

This whole post deals with a bullets ability to incapacitate and stop a threat.  In some cases a heavier Varmint style bullet can be quite effective.  In some cases it won’t, but it is silly to imply that it would never be effective.  Some bullets, especially those that depend on yaw yo work, can have erratic performance.  I prefer to stay away from them.  I personally prefer the Gold Dots.  They don’t depend solely on yawning to work.  A person needs to consider where he lives and take into consideration potential for collateral damage when selecting any tool of self defense.  We are responsible for every round that leaves our gun.

This is easy.

5.56 77 grain TMK

300 BLK 110 grain VMAX

Done.

If .223 55 grain VMAX hits an arm before the torso it is pretty much useless. If it hits a big fat guy in his big fat gut it is pretty much useless. It is devastating on frontal torso shots, but we don't select defense loads based on best case scenarios, we include the worst case ones.

But you are not talking about a heavy varmint bullet.  You are talking about a light weight varmint bullet.  

Closest thing to a heavy varmint bullet in 5.56 is a 77gr TMK...which is a good round if you don't need it to be barrier blind.

It is also why 110gr Vmax/Varmageddon varmint loads at 300blk speed makes the cut.

I guess I'm asking, why take the chance? If you are going to spend extra (over M193) for HD rounds, grab TMK's or 62/64gr expanding rounds over 55gr varmint rounds.

So I read up on that article posted about the best defense rounds to get by caliber (but focused on 223). But, I wanted to get clarification on something. Does ammo that was labeled as “If barrier penetration IS a factor” mean “if you don’t want overpenetration” or “if you want more penetration”?

Also I was able to pick up some Federal XF223SP. Would that be sufficient for HD round where penetration is sufficient but not too much? I’ve been reading up on resources on these forums but still confused on what I should be going for as far as a good all purpose 223/5.56 (thoughts were on Federal Fusion, though not sure if MSR or regular fusion is better or if it doesn’t really matter and I should get the cheaper one). When it comes to 300BLK, from what’s been said, it seems vmax bullets should be sufficient due to the weight (110gr). Found some SWRC 86gr 300BLK from Fox Cartridge but no reviews on it. Wanted to see if anyone’s heard of it. Also if anyone’s heard of the following:

https://foxcartridge.com/product/223-remington-62gr-ec/

https://foxcartridge.com/product/5-56-nato-novx-55gr-pentagon/

https://foxcartridge.com/product/300-blackout-125gr-solid-copper-pentagon/

https://foxcartridge.com/product/223-remington-55gr-schp-3/

https://foxcartridge.com/product/300-blackout-85gr-triad/

"If barrier penetration IS a factor" means IF you need the extra penetration to shoot through barriers.  Federal XF223SP is the speer gold dot / federal fusion bonded bullet so will penetrate fairly deep.  

Not sure what the "not too much" means?  If over penetration is a concern, you should get a non bonded SP bullet.  Those don't penetrate as much as a bonded bullets but still have great terminal effects.

I run 64gr Gold Dot. Wish I had stocked up on more when PSA was blowing it out at $120 for 200 rounds with a BCG. It works really well on deer. Once my stash dwindles I'll probably be buying Fusion MSR as it's the same bullet as the current 62gr GD and a little more available.

My second choice would be Winchester RA556B but it's difficult to find.

64 GR Gold Dot has been my hunting and HD ammo for a bit now.  Same story as you.  Wish I would have stocked up more back when, my stash is almost out.  I've been buying MSR to replace it.

So would the Federal Fusion/Fusion MSR be sufficient for HD in terms of overpenetration? I know someone in an earlier comment mentioned non-bonded soft points. Any good examples? Also, is there a optimal bullet grain I should lean towards? Thank you.

I would like to know which rounds fro both calibers is most effective through car glass if faced with a car based threat.  
Over penetration issue is not a concern for folks living in full masonry houses.  
Inside I would have a shotgun anyway.  
But if trouble is outside, and cannot be avoided, and is in a car--what works best through car glass and door metal?

You should shoot some of each of the loads you’re looking at in your rifle see how they function and group. A good non bonded soft point would be the Winchester 64gr power point or the Federal 64gr Hi-shock. I prefer the Federal TRU loading of the 64gr Hi-shock it’s sealed and can be found for less than the Winchester.

300blk is easy.

There are basically two (well, three, but two of them are similar) bullets.
For HD, I use:
110gr V-max (or 110gr Varmageddon)
I have some of each.  Both are heavy varmint rounds that at close range out of my 9" or 10.5", will provide good fragmentation and decent penetration, while also be less likely to go through a dozen walls in a solid chunk.

For everything else:
The gold standard...110gr Tac-Tx.  Biggest problem with this round is cost per trigger pull.   I have some of this as well for SHTF, and it is also a popular whitetail round.

There are a few other good rounds, but Tac-tx and V-max are by far the most popualar.

Here are some gel tests through different medium from Brass Fetcher.  Good stuff
https://www.silencertalk.com/300AAC/300%20AAC%20Blackout%20test%20results%2006OCT2010.pdf

Thank you.  Is this a round you are familiar with:
300 Blackout Federal Fusion 150 Grain Bonded Soft Point Ammo - F300BMSR2

Avoid them.  While I don't have specific experience with those rounds, I do have some Gorilla loaded Barnes 150gr Soft Points that look similar.

Bottom line, 150gr is to heavy (thus too slow) for 300blk.  For supers, stay below 125gr, especially in shorter barrels.

My 10.5" shot those 150gr soft points at 1828 fps.

Thank you.  I have a 10.5"

It is one of the best defensive rounds for the .223 / 5.56.  However, it is a bonded bullet and will penetrate deep.  IF you are concerned about over penetration, take a look at 55 grain soft point.  Terminally very effective and does not penetrate too deep.  AIM has some for sale at a decent price HERE!





The Federal Fusion is what you seek.  

The penetration of the 62/64 grain Gold Dot is ideal for a duty/defensive load.  Any bullet that meets specifications for a duty/defensive load is going to penetrate the interior walls of a typical household.








....

You are way too hung-up on the notion of over-penetration.

From Dr. GK Roberts . . .

"Failures to stop a suspect because of under-penetration, poor bullet placement, and completely missing the target are far more significant problems than over-penetration. With shots to the center of mass, if a handgun or rifle bullet fails to have enough penetration to reach the large blood bearing vessels and organs in the torso, rapid physiological incapacitation is unlikely and an opponent may remain a lethal threat to officers and citizen bystanders. Conversely, if a bullet fired by officers completely penetrates a violent criminal and exits downrange, the bullet will certainly have had enough penetration to reach the large blood bearing vessels or organs in the torso. As a result, it is more likely to have caused sufficient hemorrhage to induce hypovolemic shock--the only reliable method of physiological incapacitation in the absence of CNS trauma.

Unfortunately, according to the available published date, the majority of shots fired in the field by U.S. LE officers miss their intended target. According to published NYPD SOP-9 data, the NYPD hit ratio by officers against perpetrators in 2000 was 12.3% of shots fired and in 2001 13.5% of shots fired. The Miami Metro-Dade County PD had hit ratios ranging between 15.4% and 30% from 1988-1994. Portland PD reported hits with 43% of shots fired at adversaries from 1984-1992, while Baltimore PD reported a 49% average hit ratio from 1989-2002.

Given that the reported averages for LE officers actually hitting the suspect ranges between 12% to 49% of shots fired, more concern should be given to the between 51-88% of shots fired by LE officers which completely MISS the intended target and immediately result in a significant threat to any person down range, rather than excessively worry about the relatively rare instance where one of the 12%-49% of shots fired actually hits the intended target and then exits the perpetrator in a fashion which still poses a hazard.

In short, the consequences of projectile under-penetration are far more likely to get officers and citizens killed than over-penetration issues"

This. Stop looking at "over penetration" and look for proper penetration envelope (12"-18" in calibrated ballistic gel).

Barrier blind rounds like the bonded Gold Dot just means that the bullet meets the proper penetration envelope through bare gel as well as the standard test barriers (auto glass, denim, sheet metal, etc.).

The PPU 55 grain soft point meets the FBI threshold of 12" min penetration out of a 16" or shorter barrel.  55 grain soft points also penetrate barriers and obstacles the least, so it is something to consider if you live in a urban environment, IE apartment dweller.  I agree, penetration is important but is also situational.  In combat, I would want the most penetration possible.  In urban home defense, I would not.  Obviously, as good as penetration is, in a urban home defense / apartment situation there ARE limits as to how far you'd want a round to penetrate barriers.  Picture for instance, a 7.62x51 NATO FMJ.  I would NOT want to use that in an apartment, esp most of the shoddily constructed ones around these days.  I also would not want to use 9mm fmj, a bit lesser example but some 9mm fmj rounds can penetrate very far.  Much farther than I would be comfortable with in an apartment.  How about a 12 gauge slug?  Hey, it's more penetration which is better, right?

I know for a fact that there are some rounds that will blow clean through an apartment end to end, through multiple walls and furniture, and most of the next apartment as well.  Yes, any round will penetrate drywall, but how many additional walls / furniture, studs, boards, etc will be penetrated?   All those obstacles and stuff adds up, and a round that penetrate non steel barriers, like wood, twice as much is more likely to hit someone in the case of a miss (stress of life and death can cause that and that is more likely to happen than a pass through) or in the case a shot does penetrate and continue inside the home.  The one with less penetration will pose less of a threat to third parties.  It is not a 2 way range like in war, where anything across from you is fair game.  And about the torso diagram, remember Somalia / Blackhawk Down?  How well did the over penetration work for them there?  You could be dealing with a methhead, or other emaciated person.  You could be dealing with a crazed petite woman.  That torso diagram is simply ONE example of what you COULD face.  It is NOT gospel it is NOT what you will be sure to experience.  And if it is, the PPU 55 grain softpoint would reach the vitals in that case anyway.      




Note the video shows the penetration of a 64 grain SP in wood, and the 55 grain SP penetrates even less than that!  The 64 grain soft point had the least amount of penetration of all the rounds tested (5"), 33% less penetration than the 2nd least penetration round (M193).  55 grain SP would have penetrated even less than that.

Remember EVERY bullet that you fire in a self defense situation as a lawyer attached to it.  If by chance you do end up shooting someone innocent, collaterally, you using a round known for deeper penetration is something that a zealous prosecutor might try to use against you.  Remember Rittenhouse?

Before I accepted 300blk into my life, the IMI 77gr SMK is what I ran.  Especially when Midway used to have it on sell during salad days.  I still have it stocked up.

Now, I would probably load up PSA's 77gr TMK first, then SMK's second (if I wasn't doing a barrier blind type round).  If deep pockets are available, then make that Black Hills 77gr TMK's.

I agree. I guess my main concern is collateral damage. I do understand that when faced with a situation where the lives of me and my family are on the line, neutralizing the threat should be the number one priority. I guess I'm just trying to create the most perfect scenario possible and that's why I'm trying to find that one round, whether it be Federal, Speer, etc., that will do what I need. I did decide on a load (Federal 64gr TRU (T223L)) based on this (Federal Tactical 223 Data Book). Hopefully it'll be sufficient for my needs. Thanks for the info and data. At the very least, I did decide against the 55gr Vmax :).

Except for all the times that it doesn't do that . . .





And a 3" ballistic neck is not "a very short neck".  This is what very short ballistic necks look like . . .

















....