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CO, USA
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Posted: 2/28/2024 8:34:53 PM EDT
Generally I use m855. Some of my guns get noticeable larger groups with 55 grain, and its commonly avalible, works great at the 100 yards (or closer) I shot at, and the salad days let me buy cheap tier ammo (pmc, ppu, american eagle) for cheap.
Now, My range is opening a 500 yard so I'd like a round where I know I'm the limiting factor. I want better terminal performance should I ever need it. The price differrence between fmj and smk or otm (or blacktip) seems to be closing. However, I'm still a cheapskate, and don't want to spend over a dollar a round for mostly paper targets. I want longterm avalibility, so I can get a case every few months (most of the molon recommend ammo seems unobtanium) . I want quality ammo (sealed primers ect), I'm currently shooting 2013 ammo, so need it to last. I want close to 62grain-ish, so my zero won't shift too much when using different ammo, and lighter grains don't seem to work. The AAC ammo seems to fit the bill, but I any feedback or other options would be appreciated. |
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MI, USA
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Posted: 2/28/2024 9:04:16 PM EDT
[#1]
I don’t believe AAC seals any of their ammo, at least not the ones that I’ve seen. You could seal them yourself. I’m with you though, why buy FMJ for .50 per round when you can get their 77 or 75 grain loadings for .55 per when they go on sale.
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Posted: 2/28/2024 9:31:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: tarheel7734]
[#2]
Their 77 grain is good stuff.
If you absoluty insist on sealed primers, imi 77 grain is about the cheapest. |
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CO, USA
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Posted: 2/28/2024 9:46:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TGH456E]
[#3]
OP:
You're asking for competing and very different criteria: ".....I want quality ammo (sealed primers ect), I'm currently shooting 2013 ammo, so need it to last. I want close to 62grain-ish, so my zero won't shift too much when using different ammo, and lighter grains don't seem to work. -The PSA/AAC ammo I checked was NOT sealed. -If you want to shoot out to 500yds, "62 grain-ish" will go that far but be very frustrating in the wind here in CO. So something has to give............ you'll be much happier (successful) at 500yds with a 75/77 bullet. The AAC loadings might work well for you.......... you'll just have to give up the "Sealed ammo" idea. |
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CO, USA
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Posted: 2/28/2024 10:10:44 PM EDT
[#4]
I had thought the AAC was sealed, I must of mixed up the details from another brand. Thats a bummer but not a deal breaker if its quality ammo otherwise.
I'd rather keep the weight close to 62 grain as I would rather keep the zeros roughly interchangeable. That said I'm not shooting out passed a thousand yards, and AAC has offerings in 62, 69, 70, 75 and 77 grain. I'm trying to work out the balance between each of the bullets for the ranges I want. The military qualifies out to 300 with 55 or 62 grain, so how heavy I need is an unknown to me. I get that its a compromise between a multitude of factors, so my solution won't be ideal for any one (or may require adjusting my criteria). So I listed my wants, and am appreciating the feedback on how achievable they are. |
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Posted: 2/28/2024 10:22:25 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Wammel: I had thought the AAC was sealed, I must of mixed up the details from another brand. Thats a bummer but not a deal breaker if its quality ammo otherwise. I'd rather keep the weight close to 62 grain as I would rather keep the zeros roughly interchangeable. That said I'm not shooting out passed a thousand yards, and AAC has offerings in 62, 69, 70, 75 and 77 grain. I'm trying to work out the balance between each of the bullets for the ranges I want. The military qualifies out to 300 with 55 or 62 grain, so how heavy I need is an unknown to me. I get that its a compromise between a multitude of factors, so my solution won't be ideal for any one (or may require adjusting my criteria). So I listed my wants, and am appreciating the feedback on how achievable they are. You mentioned terminal performance.. 77 grain has much better terminal performance than either 55 grain or 62 grain. We moved away from m855 as soon as we could and never went back. We always used mk262 or the 70 grain brown tipped ( barns tsx) when we could. There are so many better options out there than 62gr and 55gr fmj. |
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CO, USA
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Posted: 2/28/2024 10:24:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TGH456E]
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Wammel: I had thought the AAC was sealed, I must of mixed up the details from another brand. Thats a bummer but not a deal breaker if its quality ammo otherwise. I'd rather keep the weight close to 62 grain as I would rather keep the zeros roughly interchangeable. That said I'm not shooting out passed a thousand yards, and AAC has offerings in 62, 69, 70, 75 and 77 grain. I'm trying to work out the balance between each of the bullets for the ranges I want. The military qualifies out to 300 with 55 or 62 grain, so how heavy I need is an unknown to me. I get that its a compromise between a multitude of factors, so my solution won't be ideal for any one (or may require adjusting my criteria). So I listed my wants, and am appreciating the feedback on how achievable they are. I personally checked the 77 AAC load offerings as part of a broader evaluation and NO, they are NOT sealed. Now maybe some others are............. but I WOULD PERSONALLY CHECK. They did shoot reasonably well for me though. FWIW........ just my 2%.......... I shoot alot out at CRC (Colorado Rifle Club). 300 and + is where the lighter bullets (ie 62) start to fall apart. Just go with a 75-77 if you want to reach out to 500. It will save you alot of aggravation. Especially out here.......... with wind. Where are you shooting? |
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MI, USA
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Posted: 2/28/2024 10:39:26 PM EDT
[#7]
I think you need to ask yourself what level of precision you’re looking for. 9 Hole Reviews on YouTube regularly takes M193 out to 500yds. If you just want to be able to hit a torso sometimes at 500, anything will probably work. If you want to do it with more regularity, 68-77s is what you probably want. Just don’t expect the zeros to be the same, regardless of what ammo you choose. The near zeros (25, 36, 50, etc) may be pretty close, but the far zeros won’t be.
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PA, USA
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Posted: 2/28/2024 10:56:25 PM EDT
[#8]
M193 for most people is much more precise/accurate than M855.
68-77gr OTM for 500yd accuracy What are you looking at at AAC? The sabre blade in 62gr? Thats the only thing I can think of that fits what you are saying, but its not going to be best at 500yds. Probably much better than M855 though |
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CO, USA
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Posted: 2/28/2024 11:10:06 PM EDT
[#9]
I'm shoting at lead valley range, just down the road from crc in byers. So the wind will be pretty comparable.
I was hoping for minute of gong at 500, but will settle for on paper at 300, then 500 as I learn. But if i'm moving to a new bullet, I rather make an informed choice. Seems I may need to go with the 77grain then, that way I will have the weight needed for the range I want (and better terminal performance). I can also look for a few cases of the imi stuff for longer term storage. Its just a big mental hump switching to a dollar a round when the stuff I'm currently shooting was thirty cents a round (even if its fifty cents a round to replace). But thats why I asked for feedback, to stop me going half cock into 69 grain. |
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Posted: 2/28/2024 11:16:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: tarheel7734]
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Wammel: I'm shoting at lead valley range, just down the road from crc in byers. So the wind will be pretty comparable. I was hoping for minute of gong at 500, but will settle for on paper at 300, then 500 as I learn. But if i'm moving to a new bullet, I rather make an informed choice. Seems I may need to go with the 77grain then, that way I will have the weight needed for the range I want (and better terminal performance). I can also look for a few cases of the imi stuff for longer term storage. Its just a big mental hump switching to a dollar a round when the stuff I'm currently shooting was thirty cents a round (even if its fifty cents a round to replace). But thats why I asked for feedback, to stop me going half cock into 69 grain. You really don't have an issue with unsealed primers for long term storage. It's not really till you get into military applications that sealed primers really have any real practical influence. We are talking about actually submerging the ammo. |
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Posted: 2/29/2024 3:49:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Duck_Hunt]
[#11]
Imi 77gr mk262 clone should have sealed necks and primers and is therefore what you should purchase to stack deep given the choice.
AAC offerings are great for shooting and training. I used their 77gr otms for this and leave the cbc and imi mk262 for the rainy day. |
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Posted: 2/29/2024 3:52:28 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By tarheel7734: You really don't have an issue with unsealed primers for long term storage. It's not really till you get into military applications that sealed primers really have any real practical influence. We are talking about actually submerging the ammo. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By tarheel7734: Originally Posted By Wammel: I'm shoting at lead valley range, just down the road from crc in byers. So the wind will be pretty comparable. I was hoping for minute of gong at 500, but will settle for on paper at 300, then 500 as I learn. But if i'm moving to a new bullet, I rather make an informed choice. Seems I may need to go with the 77grain then, that way I will have the weight needed for the range I want (and better terminal performance). I can also look for a few cases of the imi stuff for longer term storage. Its just a big mental hump switching to a dollar a round when the stuff I'm currently shooting was thirty cents a round (even if its fifty cents a round to replace). But thats why I asked for feedback, to stop me going half cock into 69 grain. You really don't have an issue with unsealed primers for long term storage. It's not really till you get into military applications that sealed primers really have any real practical influence. We are talking about actually submerging the ammo. This is the sole reason to stack ammo for long term storage. At least for me ymmv. |
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Posted: 2/29/2024 4:24:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: tarheel7734]
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Duck_Hunt: This is the sole reason to stack ammo for long term storage. At least for me ymmv. I'm talking about underwater operations such as infiltration by off shore means . You can submerge unsealed primers for probably a month in standard water without negative side effects. Your idea of shift is not what I consider real military operations or what I have conducted in the past. |
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Posted: 2/29/2024 9:27:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Duck_Hunt]
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By tarheel7734: I'm talking about underwater operations such as infiltration by off shore means . You can submerge unsealed primers for probably a month in standard water without negative side effects. Your idea of shift is not what I consider real military operations or what I have conducted in the past. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By tarheel7734: Originally Posted By Duck_Hunt: This is the sole reason to stack ammo for long term storage. At least for me ymmv. I'm talking about underwater operations such as infiltration by off shore means . You can submerge unsealed primers for probably a month in standard water without negative side effects. Your idea of shift is not what I consider real military operations or what I have conducted in the past. I mean I get it. But I’ve been backpacking in a national forest for weeks on end with a rifle and soaked for days in rain, and crossing rivers. The same could happen in a shtf scenario. For stacking ammo deep it’s double sealed only for me. |
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CO, USA
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Posted: 2/29/2024 10:10:03 PM EDT
[#15]
Internet opinion also seems to suggest the sealent prevents the slow degradation of powder due to environmental humidity over a decade or two. No point having a fort if it dosen't go bang when I want it to. I've never had ammo go bad, but don't want to start now.
It also indicates extra dotting the i's and crossing the t's, suggesting they are not cutting corners elsewhere. |
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Posted: 3/1/2024 12:00:01 AM EDT
[#16]
Every rifle has its preferences but I’ve been having very good luck between their higher grain choices. Order up a few boxes of their OTM, SMK, BTHP, etc and see if any jive well with your setup. I’ve been buying a shit ton of it and plan on buying a shit ton more.
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Posted: 3/1/2024 3:47:59 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Duck_Hunt: Imi 77gr mk262 clone should have sealed necks and primers and is therefore what you should purchase to stack deep given the choice. AAC offerings are great for shooting and training. I used their 77gr otms for this and leave the cbc and imi mk262 for the rainy day. The IMI I just bought does NOT have sealed necks. Primers yes, necks no. It used to, but not this lot, at least. |
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Posted: 3/1/2024 3:48:59 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By tarheel7734: I'm talking about underwater operations such as infiltration by off shore means . You can submerge unsealed primers for probably a month in standard water without negative side effects. Your idea of shift is not what I consider real military operations or what I have conducted in the past. Case necks are a different story. I tossed a few rounds of Gold Dot in my 55gal aquarium and fished them out a day later and the powder was clumped when I took them down. Just for grins. How applicable this is, is up for debate |
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Posted: 3/1/2024 3:49:44 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Wammel: Internet opinion also seems to suggest the sealent prevents the slow degradation of powder due to environmental humidity over a decade or two. No point having a fort if it dosen't go bang when I want it to. I've never had ammo go bad, but don't want to start now. It also indicates extra dotting the i's and crossing the t's, suggesting they are not cutting corners elsewhere. I have, but it was .22 rimfire. It definitely went bad over time stored in the South. Remington Golden Bullet, I believe. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 3/1/2024 8:46:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: DevL]
[#20]
You don't have any truly economical options.
IMI 5.56 77 grain Razorcore Hornady .223 75 grain TAP That's about all that will meet your criteria and under $1 per round with sealed primers. The exception would be 75 grain Hornady civil lines which is not necessarily sealed primers but otherwise identical to TAP .223 75 grain OTM and that ammo is significantly less. Then you could buy sealed for storage and unsealed for shooting up. I personally stack Black Hills 5.56 77 TMK but that is super rare and super expensive. It gets released once or twice a year. It went two years straight without a release as well. |
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TN, USA
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Posted: 3/1/2024 10:35:51 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TGH456E: OP: You're asking for competing and very different criteria: ".....I want quality ammo (sealed primers ect), I'm currently shooting 2013 ammo, so need it to last. I want close to 62grain-ish, so my zero won't shift too much when using different ammo, and lighter grains don't seem to work. -The PSA/AAC ammo I checked was NOT sealed. -If you want to shoot out to 500yds, "62 grain-ish" will go that far but be very frustrating in the wind here in CO. So something has to give............ you'll be much happier (successful) at 500yds with a 75/77 bullet. The AAC loadings might work well for you.......... you'll just have to give up the "Sealed ammo" idea. I tried a few boxes of federal American eagle 223 75gr TMJ and 2 boxees of aac 62gr fmj a few days a go at my local range, they both did well but the 75gr tuff was much tighter, granted I zeroed my optic for 100yds. I bought a case ach of the aac sabre blade stuff in 55gr and 75gr, and wanted to zero the optic I got for the 75gr stuff but wasn't sure I'd find target stuff in that grain weight. also OP doesn't state what barrel length or twist rate he has on his rifle, I imagine that will play a big factor at 500 yds as far as accuracy goes. but I will ay for the cost of aac stuff, even if you have to seal it yourself, that seems an ok trade off, or just keep it In really good conditions like sealed ammo cans with dessicat packs if its for stock piling anyway. |
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TN, USA
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Posted: 3/1/2024 10:41:30 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Wammel: I had thought the AAC was sealed, I must of mixed up the details from another brand. Thats a bummer but not a deal breaker if its quality ammo otherwise. I'd rather keep the weight close to 62 grain as I would rather keep the zeros roughly interchangeable. That said I'm not shooting out passed a thousand yards, and AAC has offerings in 62, 69, 70, 75 and 77 grain. I'm trying to work out the balance between each of the bullets for the ranges I want. The military qualifies out to 300 with 55 or 62 grain, so how heavy I need is an unknown to me. I get that its a compromise between a multitude of factors, so my solution won't be ideal for any one (or may require adjusting my criteria). So I listed my wants, and am appreciating the feedback on how achievable they are. What is t barrel length and twist rate for your rifle(s)? I bought 200rds each of the aac 62gr fmj and 62gr sabre bladee black tip, but I also have 1k of the 55gr sbbt and 75gr sbbt as well, and about 300rds of the 75 jhp bt aac. I like the aac stuff so far and for the price its hard to beat. fact is not many are offering other options in those grain weights for near that price, I'm talking expanding9fragmentating rounds too not just target ammo.. its also a good way to practice using the same grain weights, for example I have a good bit of the Hornady black 75gr Bt JHP 223, at $20/box, yet I can shoot cheaper stuff in 75gr weight to practice or zero optics. I also got 500rds of barns 69gr JHP BT a bit ago from buds at about $16/ box which wasn't bad. I'd say look around, get a few boxes of several types and try them out. see what you look at a price you can or want to swing. |
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CO, USA
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Posted: 3/1/2024 12:33:14 PM EDT
[#23]
I have a variety of rifles, but twist are all 1/9, 1/8 or 1/7; lengths are 16, 14.5 and 10.5. My actual goto is a 1/8 with a 14.5.
All seem happy with m855, some dislike 193 (wider groups) , part of why I had hoped to get a close ish to 62 grain (advice has dissuaded me from this). I am trying to concentrate on ammo at the moment as I have rifle options and need more as I think prices and availability will be impacted by the election later in the year. I have incomplete kits so buying a new barrel for longer ranges, is also clearly an option. As m855 met my needs for 556 untill now, its just finding the right alternative. |
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CO, USA
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Posted: 3/1/2024 1:08:17 PM EDT
[#24]
Interesting on the fishtank test, it doesn't take much for a wet pack to ruin a good day.
I would imagine the imi options will be bad for a while, as i'd guess the Israelis are using it quite a bit. The advice on picking a few different options and seeing what works seems sage. I've always heard good stuff about the 77grain black hills, but availability is never good when i've looked. I think i'm focusing between 75 and 77 grain. the aac offerings seems like a big price jump between them, but the 77 seems to have more options outside of aac. |
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CO, USA
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Posted: 3/1/2024 5:44:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TGH456E]
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Wammel: I'm shoting at lead valley range, just down the road from crc in byers. So the wind will be pretty comparable. I was hoping for minute of gong at 500, but will settle for on paper at 300, then 500 as I learn. But if i'm moving to a new bullet, I rather make an informed choice. Seems I may need to go with the 77grain then, that way I will have the weight needed for the range I want (and better terminal performance). I can also look for a few cases of the imi stuff for longer term storage. Its just a big mental hump switching to a dollar a round when the stuff I'm currently shooting was thirty cents a round (even if its fifty cents a round to replace). But thats why I asked for feedback, to stop me going half cock into 69 grain. Ok.......... yes. Just my 2% here............... shooting CRC/Lead Valley................ when the wind starts to swirl or pick up which it WILL do......... you'll want a heavy bullet like 75-77. As others have said, of course buy a box or two, you might find a preference. Where we are a 1/8 should have no issues shooting them. Now that said............ you bring up another side to this: once you start shooting at longer distances.... ie 500........... barrel velocity is a concern. You of course want higher velocities. ............. so try whatever your longest barrel and fastest twist is first. If you have to make a priority: twist then length. |
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Posted: 3/2/2024 8:53:42 AM EDT
[#26]
I would suggest you start with the various AAC 77gr loads.
To See if your barrel likes the OTM, and SMK loads. |
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Posted: 3/2/2024 9:18:15 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JohnDough: The IMI I just bought does NOT have sealed necks. Primers yes, necks no. It used to, but not this lot, at least. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JohnDough: Originally Posted By Duck_Hunt: Imi 77gr mk262 clone should have sealed necks and primers and is therefore what you should purchase to stack deep given the choice. AAC offerings are great for shooting and training. I used their 77gr otms for this and leave the cbc and imi mk262 for the rainy day. The IMI I just bought does NOT have sealed necks. Primers yes, necks no. It used to, but not this lot, at least. That’s a bummer. Definitely not worth the current cost if not dbl sealed. The last imi I bought was when midway blew it out. |
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Posted: 3/2/2024 9:44:33 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Wammel: Interesting on the fishtank test, it doesn't take much for a wet pack to ruin a good day. I would imagine the imi options will be bad for a while, as i'd guess the Israelis are using it quite a bit. The advice on picking a few different options and seeing what works seems sage. I've always heard good stuff about the 77grain black hills, but availability is never good when i've looked. I think i'm focusing between 75 and 77 grain. the aac offerings seems like a big price jump between them, but the 77 seems to have more options outside of aac. I’d wager the imi that the Israeli mil is using is double sealed. It’s probably nothing more than cutting cost on the export run. Winchester did similar here with 9mm nato. Its increasingly difficult to find double sealed Ammo on the civilian market. |
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Posted: 3/5/2024 4:02:30 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By tarheel7734: You really don't have an issue with unsealed primers for long term storage. It's not really till you get into military applications that sealed primers really have any real practical influence. We are talking about actually submerging the ammo. In my mind, the sealed primers are important against oil. Most AR's need to run wet and in my typical apocalyptic fantasies, I am running around with a well oiled AR with a round in the chamber for days and weeks, getting caught in the daily Florida thunderstorms, maybe fording the 87 million lakes and canals here too. Many years ago I did a test: I soaked some rounds in WD40 (most extreme anti-primer thing I could think of). Factory sealed primers fired fine, along with my home-sealed primers. Un-sealed primers were all squibs. |
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